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 Speculation » Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million
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 Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697678]
Thu, 13 July 2017 13:14 Go to next message
GabbyDugan  is currently offline GabbyDugan
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....still being reported as "close to" a sale, so I guess this is speculation...

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2017/07/13/report-hurricanes-close- to-being-sold/

...all reports indicate the team will stay in Raleigh, so Quebec City will have to explore another way to return to the NHL....




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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697682 is a reply to message #697678 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Is the buyer drunk all the time? How on earth is the Cane worth 500 mill. Must be nice to have that much money you can flush that much down the toilet and not care if the sale goes ahead. No chance they make money in Carolina. I bet there is a clause in the sale agreement keeping the Canes there for a set, short period of time.


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697722 is a reply to message #697682 ]
Fri, 14 July 2017 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DUFFMAN  is currently offline DUFFMAN
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This is the same price as Vegas paid, which essentially values the 'Canes brand at zero.


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697726 is a reply to message #697722 ]
Fri, 14 July 2017 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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DUFFMAN wrote on Fri, 14 July 2017 12:24

This is the same price as Vegas paid, which essentially values the 'Canes brand at zero.


I think it's crazy to expect the Canes to be sold for that. At least in Vegas there will be a buzz for a few years and the owner might make some money. The guy who buys the Canes is buying a team that loses money.

What surprises me and maybe behind the scenes they do it, I don't know is if the players are supposed to be "50-50" partners in league revenues, you'd think you would hear a little more from them once in awhile about all these money losing franchises needing to go somewhere else. The Canes, Coyotes, Panthers for sure given no one goes to the games are money losers and receive money from the league to try and stay afloat. That money all comes out of league revenue. So if I was a player, even though living in Florida and Arizona is great, I would rather those teams be in places that either make a little more or at least break even so there is more league revenue for me to draw upon. I would have a hard time believing that if say who ever bought the Canes moved them to Quebec, that the team there couldn't at least break even. The more money that is left in the pot at the end of the year, the more money the players would get. The Canes have been in the league since 1997. They won a cup in 2006. They have drawn lousy crowds for a long time. If you haven't built a fan base in 20 yrs, a new owner isn't going to suddenly change that anytime soon.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 July 2017 14:01]


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697734 is a reply to message #697726 ]
Fri, 14 July 2017 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 14 July 2017 13:49

DUFFMAN wrote on Fri, 14 July 2017 12:24

This is the same price as Vegas paid, which essentially values the 'Canes brand at zero.


I think it's crazy to expect the Canes to be sold for that. At least in Vegas there will be a buzz for a few years and the owner might make some money. The guy who buys the Canes is buying a team that loses money.

What surprises me and maybe behind the scenes they do it, I don't know is if the players are supposed to be "50-50" partners in league revenues, you'd think you would hear a little more from them once in awhile about all these money losing franchises needing to go somewhere else. The Canes, Coyotes, Panthers for sure given no one goes to the games are money losers and receive money from the league to try and stay afloat. That money all comes out of league revenue. So if I was a player, even though living in Florida and Arizona is great, I would rather those teams be in places that either make a little more or at least break even so there is more league revenue for me to draw upon. I would have a hard time believing that if say who ever bought the Canes moved them to Quebec, that the team there couldn't at least break even. The more money that is left in the pot at the end of the year, the more money the players would get. The Canes have been in the league since 1997. They won a cup in 2006. They have drawn lousy crowds for a long time. If you haven't built a fan base in 20 yrs, a new owner isn't going to suddenly change that anytime soon.


Two things on this:

1) The NHL is committed to keeping teams in their current location as long as there are purchasers willing to buy and keep the team there. Arizona has sold several times to local buyers, and has had a couple other significant pursuits from other parties willing to keep the team there. Florida has sold a couple of times to ownership committed to that market. And it sounds like Carolina may be as well.

It's a really good policy that the NHL has here. It prevents teams from being uprooted on an owner's whim. That saved the Oilers in Edmonton in the 1990s, so I am never unhappy to see it still in place.

It's also good for the other team's in the league. If someone moves to a prime relocation market, there is not a huge cheque coming to all the teams. If the league expands, there may be. Keeping a team from moving to Seattle or Quebec means a significant cheque for the other owners some day in the future when they grant an expansion team.

2) Sports teams aren't like normal business investments. They are expensive and with a few exceptions, they don't tend to make much additional money for owners, other than through the appreciation of the team. It's a prestige item, and as long as it isn't a money pit, owners are often happy just to be able to say they own a team.

You are right that the NHLPA is unhappy that they don't move to the best markets. Bad performing teams hurt Hockey-Related Revenues, which hurts players directly. But there's a limit to what they can do about that at this point. It may be a point of contention in the upcoming CBA armageddon...



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697786 is a reply to message #697734 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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http://www.tsn.ca/report-hurricanes-attendance-down-32-per-c ent-over-10-years-1.808287

According to a report, the Canes have had the second largest attendance drop over the last 10 years in all of major league sports. If the sale goes through, I think the new owner would be insane to pay the reported 500 mill and even more nuts to keep them in Carolina much longer. I totally get the argument about a sports team not being a regular business and it being partly about prestige. I also get that for a lot of these owners, the probably main goal is to buy these teams, hold on to them for a while, endure the ups and downs and then sell them for profit. I don't know what the original Canes owner paid to bring the team in the league but if he sells them for 500 mill, I am guessing he made a nice profit even with all of the losses I am sure he had to pay. So in the end, it was most likely a good, long term investment. But for the new owner, if he pays 500 mill, I don't see how he will ever make a profit if he stays in Carolina. It will most likely end up as a money pit.

So it would shock me that if this sale goes through, there isn't an out clause that is tied to team losses or attendance or something. I would also e a little surprised if this team isn't relocated to a place like Quebec of Seattle or in southern Ontario in the nearish future. I know the league wants to keep teams in their original places but you can't expect owners to pay 500 mill for a team and never have a chance to even get in the ball park of breaking even. I don't know what the Coyotes sold for but it was way, way, way less than 500 mill.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697788 is a reply to message #697786 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 08:48

http://www.tsn.ca/report-hurricanes-attendance-down-32-per-c ent-over-10-years-1.808287

According to a report, the Canes have had the second largest attendance drop over the last 10 years in all of major league sports. If the sale goes through, I think the new owner would be insane to pay the reported 500 mill and even more nuts to keep them in Carolina much longer. I totally get the argument about a sports team not being a regular business and it being partly about prestige. I also get that for a lot of these owners, the probably main goal is to buy these teams, hold on to them for a while, endure the ups and downs and then sell them for profit. I don't know what the original Canes owner paid to bring the team in the league but if he sells them for 500 mill, I am guessing he made a nice profit even with all of the losses I am sure he had to pay. So in the end, it was most likely a good, long term investment. But for the new owner, if he pays 500 mill, I don't see how he will ever make a profit if he stays in Carolina. It will most likely end up as a money pit.

So it would shock me that if this sale goes through, there isn't an out clause that is tied to team losses or attendance or something. I would also e a little surprised if this team isn't relocated to a place like Quebec of Seattle or in southern Ontario in the nearish future. I know the league wants to keep teams in their original places but you can't expect owners to pay 500 mill for a team and never have a chance to even get in the ball park of breaking even. I don't know what the Coyotes sold for but it was way, way, way less than 500 mill.


Ask and you shall receive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Karmanos_Jr.
Quote:

Karmanos, his Compuware partner Thewes and former player Jim Rutherford purchased the Hartford Whalers in 1994, for $47.5 million. At the time, they had committed to keeping the team in Hartford for at least four years.[12][13] Connecticut's then-governor Lowell P. Weicker announced that Karmanos would be critical for the team to stay in Hartford. Weicker later became a member of the Compuware Board of Directors. Karmanos was unable to sell 11,000 season tickets in Hartford during the 1995–1996 NHL season and announced the team would leave Hartford before a new city had been found if the Whalers were unable to sell 11,000 season tickets for the 1996–1997 season.[14] Even though they surpassed 11,000 season tickets in 1996-97, the team was moved to Raleigh, North Carolina and renamed the Carolina Hurricanes following the 1996–1997 season.


On the surface, it certainly looks like a good investment - you buy it for $47.5MM and sell it for $500MM.

However, he also held it for 23 years in between, and if he has lost money in many of those years, that adds up. If he lost an average of $5MM a year, that's over $100MM in that time. If the average loss was $10MM, then it's close to half the value he's selling the team for now.

I don't think there is a reasonable expectation for a future owner that it will be a $5 Billion investment in 20 years, so you can't count on the appreciation that Karmanos has seen.

And the opportunity cost with the money is significant. Let's say you bought an operating company in 1994 for $47.5MM. Typically, you're looking for a rate of return of somewhere around 25% in such an investment. Assuming Karmanos used no debt, and never attempted to grow the company, instead just pocketing the return each year, he'd be looking at profits over 23 years of $273MM and then could still sell the operating company for the $47.5MM. That's already more than he'll have made on the hockey team if it's bled money as badly as rumoured.

And that's with no growth. If we put a 10% compound growth rate over those 23 years - with is modest for a company run by someone with Karmanos talent and financial wherewithal, the profits alone grow to $944MM over that time, with an exit value now of $386MM.

Even if you manage to make a profit on a sports team, it isn't a lucrative investment. If you're a billionaire looking for profit alone, there's much, much better places to put your money.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697790 is a reply to message #697788 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 09:37



If you're a billionaire


I think this part is key. Once again, I make an assumption but I dont believe we have any billionaires in our little Oilfan family. For us it is tough to even comprehend spending 500 million with no promise that it doesnt completely bankrupt us at worst and turn a tiny profit at best.
The people buying sports teams almost never care about the profit. The prestige was mentioned but much like they buy priceless art and coins, that will likely never appreciate enough to warrant it being an real investment. It is a display of attaining a level of wealth that very few will have.
As most of these types accumulate things they are constantly searching for the next rush they get from buying the next level of luxury frivolous purchase.
I think for many of these owners it is the equivalent of me putting a few hundred on the line to be in a fantasy football league, I might win, but I dont really have an expectation that this is an investment with a planned ROI, they just get to do it with real people.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697791 is a reply to message #697788 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 08:48

http://www.tsn.ca/report-hurricanes-attendance-down-32-per-c ent-over-10-years-1.808287

According to a report, the Canes have had the second largest attendance drop over the last 10 years in all of major league sports. If the sale goes through, I think the new owner would be insane to pay the reported 500 mill and even more nuts to keep them in Carolina much longer. I totally get the argument about a sports team not being a regular business and it being partly about prestige. I also get that for a lot of these owners, the probably main goal is to buy these teams, hold on to them for a while, endure the ups and downs and then sell them for profit. I don't know what the original Canes owner paid to bring the team in the league but if he sells them for 500 mill, I am guessing he made a nice profit even with all of the losses I am sure he had to pay. So in the end, it was most likely a good, long term investment. But for the new owner, if he pays 500 mill, I don't see how he will ever make a profit if he stays in Carolina. It will most likely end up as a money pit.

So it would shock me that if this sale goes through, there isn't an out clause that is tied to team losses or attendance or something. I would also e a little surprised if this team isn't relocated to a place like Quebec of Seattle or in southern Ontario in the nearish future. I know the league wants to keep teams in their original places but you can't expect owners to pay 500 mill for a team and never have a chance to even get in the ball park of breaking even. I don't know what the Coyotes sold for but it was way, way, way less than 500 mill.


Ask and you shall receive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Karmanos_Jr.
Quote:

Karmanos, his Compuware partner Thewes and former player Jim Rutherford purchased the Hartford Whalers in 1994, for $47.5 million. At the time, they had committed to keeping the team in Hartford for at least four years.[12][13] Connecticut's then-governor Lowell P. Weicker announced that Karmanos would be critical for the team to stay in Hartford. Weicker later became a member of the Compuware Board of Directors. Karmanos was unable to sell 11,000 season tickets in Hartford during the 1995–1996 NHL season and announced the team would leave Hartford before a new city had been found if the Whalers were unable to sell 11,000 season tickets for the 1996–1997 season.[14] Even though they surpassed 11,000 season tickets in 1996-97, the team was moved to Raleigh, North Carolina and renamed the Carolina Hurricanes following the 1996–1997 season.


On the surface, it certainly looks like a good investment - you buy it for $47.5MM and sell it for $500MM.

However, he also held it for 23 years in between, and if he has lost money in many of those years, that adds up. If he lost an average of $5MM a year, that's over $100MM in that time. If the average loss was $10MM, then it's close to half the value he's selling the team for now.

I don't think there is a reasonable expectation for a future owner that it will be a $5 Billion investment in 20 years, so you can't count on the appreciation that Karmanos has seen.

And the opportunity cost with the money is significant. Let's say you bought an operating company in 1994 for $47.5MM. Typically, you're looking for a rate of return of somewhere around 25% in such an investment. Assuming Karmanos used no debt, and never attempted to grow the company, instead just pocketing the return each year, he'd be looking at profits over 23 years of $273MM and then could still sell the operating company for the $47.5MM. That's already more than he'll have made on the hockey team if it's bled money as badly as rumoured.

And that's with no growth. If we put a 10% compound growth rate over those 23 years - with is modest for a company run by someone with Karmanos talent and financial wherewithal, the profits alone grow to $944MM over that time, with an exit value now of $386MM.

Even if you manage to make a profit on a sports team, it isn't a lucrative investment. If you're a billionaire looking for profit alone, there's much, much better places to put your money.

I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697792 is a reply to message #697791 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27


I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.


Didn't think you were disagreeing...was just elucidating on the point.

It's a big ticket, that's for sure. I'm guessing the guy doesn't care much about money any more, because even moving it, he's not going to see massive appreciation, and I can't see the NHL excited to let him go to one of their premier expansion destinations.

Anyone know the back story on the prospective new owner? Is he a Carolina boy? Maybe he really wants to keep it there for the people of Raleigh?




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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697793 is a reply to message #697792 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27


I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.


Didn't think you were disagreeing...was just elucidating on the point.

It's a big ticket, that's for sure. I'm guessing the guy doesn't care much about money any more, because even moving it, he's not going to see massive appreciation, and I can't see the NHL excited to let him go to one of their premier expansion destinations.

Anyone know the back story on the prospective new owner? Is he a Carolina boy? Maybe he really wants to keep it there for the people of Raleigh?



If he were able to move it to a Canadian market, then he might be able to make it a go. Maybe not making a ton of money but at least get to the point where it sort of makes sense. It would also make some sense for the potential sale price given Vegas just paid 500 mill for an expansion team so you can't make a brand new team pay that, then have someone else buy and existing team for less. So for me, there has to be a way he can get out sooner rather than later because I understand that maybe money doesn't mean a ton to some people but this would be more than just walking around money.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697798 is a reply to message #697793 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 12:06

Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27


I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.


Didn't think you were disagreeing...was just elucidating on the point.

It's a big ticket, that's for sure. I'm guessing the guy doesn't care much about money any more, because even moving it, he's not going to see massive appreciation, and I can't see the NHL excited to let him go to one of their premier expansion destinations.

Anyone know the back story on the prospective new owner? Is he a Carolina boy? Maybe he really wants to keep it there for the people of Raleigh?



If he were able to move it to a Canadian market, then he might be able to make it a go. Maybe not making a ton of money but at least get to the point where it sort of makes sense. It would also make some sense for the potential sale price given Vegas just paid 500 mill for an expansion team so you can't make a brand new team pay that, then have someone else buy and existing team for less. So for me, there has to be a way he can get out sooner rather than later because I understand that maybe money doesn't mean a ton to some people but this would be more than just walking around money.



But the NHL would HATE that. They have people lined up to pay $500MM in Quebec already, so moving a team there pulls that money out of the pockets of all the other owners and gives it to Peter Karmanos Jr. - who isn't an owner any more once he sells.

Not only are expansion fees shared by all the owners, but they're not considered hockey-related revenue, so they don't have to share that money with the players.

Unless the NHL is going to hit this guy with a further re-location fee, moving the team just takes money out of the pockets of other owners, which isn't popular. And if they charge another $250MM to move - well, then this guy has made a MASSIVE investment by that point.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697797 is a reply to message #697792 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrean  is currently offline Adrean
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Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27


I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.


Didn't think you were disagreeing...was just elucidating on the point.

It's a big ticket, that's for sure. I'm guessing the guy doesn't care much about money any more, because even moving it, he's not going to see massive appreciation, and I can't see the NHL excited to let him go to one of their premier expansion destinations.

Anyone know the back story on the prospective new owner? Is he a Carolina boy? Maybe he really wants to keep it there for the people of Raleigh?



Actually an interesting story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Greenberg_(businessman) He's a sports attorney who was involved in helping Mario obtain ownership of the Pens and then helping the Pens secure the deal for their new (at the time) arena. He's owned several baseball teams, most recently the Texas Rangers. It really stuck out to me that his primary focus is the fan experience, which may help him make a go of the Carolina fiasco.

The other thing that stuck out for me was this. What would happen to the NHL if they got a dose of Cuban?
Quote:

Greenberg has had a long-time association with Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. When they lived in Pittsburgh, the two were neighbors, and both attended the Temple Emanuel synagogue. Cuban said that Greenberg “puts the fan first, and he likes to make sure they have fun. I think he is going to be great for the Rangers, and I have told him I am happy to help in any way I can.” Cuban has joked that there is one great difference between the two though: "He is a lawyer. As my daughter would say, 'Ewwww.'



Drew Remanda said on Fri, 28 October 2016 21:09

You should never listen to me, I'm not that smart.

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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697799 is a reply to message #697797 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adrean wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 13:27

Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 11:27


I am not disagreeing with you. In the case of Karmanos, considering his extremely dirt cheap original acquisition cost, even with the yearly losses he probably had, if he were to sell for the reported 500 mill, he most likely still makes money. But in the case of the potential new owner, why on earth would he buy the team? There would have to be an easy out clause to move somewhere else, otherwise it makes zero sense. To pay 500 mill for a team with lousy attendance that lose probably a fair amount of money yearly, all for prestige can't be it. Like you said, the chances of the franchise ever increasing in value enough to even cover his acquisition cost plus the most likely team yearly losses is very unlikely. I know being a billionaire, money isn't as big of a deal and that prestige would play a role in buying but prestige would only go so far when you are paying that much and losing that much.


Didn't think you were disagreeing...was just elucidating on the point.

It's a big ticket, that's for sure. I'm guessing the guy doesn't care much about money any more, because even moving it, he's not going to see massive appreciation, and I can't see the NHL excited to let him go to one of their premier expansion destinations.

Anyone know the back story on the prospective new owner? Is he a Carolina boy? Maybe he really wants to keep it there for the people of Raleigh?



Actually an interesting story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Greenberg_(businessman) He's a sports attorney who was involved in helping Mario obtain ownership of the Pens and then helping the Pens secure the deal for their new (at the time) arena. He's owned several baseball teams, most recently the Texas Rangers. It really stuck out to me that his primary focus is the fan experience, which may help him make a go of the Carolina fiasco.

The other thing that stuck out for me was this. What would happen to the NHL if they got a dose of Cuban?
Quote:

Greenberg has had a long-time association with Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. When they lived in Pittsburgh, the two were neighbors, and both attended the Temple Emanuel synagogue. Cuban said that Greenberg “puts the fan first, and he likes to make sure they have fun. I think he is going to be great for the Rangers, and I have told him I am happy to help in any way I can.” Cuban has joked that there is one great difference between the two though: "He is a lawyer. As my daughter would say, 'Ewwww.'


Maybe he can help. But the team has been in Carolina for over 20 yrs, they won a cup. If it was going to work, they should have created some kind of a fan base by now. They should be into that next generation of fans who weren't even born when the team came in but grew up with hockey. As bad as things are in Arizona and I don't know if even a new building in a better location will hurt (though I have been to a hockey game there and the location is brutal) you are starting to see young players coming up. Austin Matthews is a product of there being hockey in Arizona. There have been a few others. But you are starting to see the next generation of fans, the 18, 19, 20, 21 yr old Arizona kids who have grew up with hockey starting to come. So at least there is evidence that hockey is making a small dent in Arizona. But in Carolina. I could be wrong but I don't hear of any local Carolina kids coming up. So I don't even know if hockey has made a dent in Carolina after a cup AND 20+ yrs.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697800 is a reply to message #697799 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 13:39


Maybe he can help. But the team has been in Carolina for over 20 yrs, they won a cup. If it was going to work, they should have created some kind of a fan base by now. They should be into that next generation of fans who weren't even born when the team came in but grew up with hockey. As bad as things are in Arizona and I don't know if even a new building in a better location will hurt (though I have been to a hockey game there and the location is brutal) you are starting to see young players coming up. Austin Matthews is a product of there being hockey in Arizona. There have been a few others. But you are starting to see the next generation of fans, the 18, 19, 20, 21 yr old Arizona kids who have grew up with hockey starting to come. So at least there is evidence that hockey is making a small dent in Arizona. But in Carolina. I could be wrong but I don't hear of any local Carolina kids coming up. So I don't even know if hockey has made a dent in Carolina after a cup AND 20+ yrs.


See, I do disagree with this.

I believe hockey is a great game and that given time to enjoy it, people will generally enjoy it.

That said, hockey in Carolina has not ever been consistently good. They've now had 20 NHL seasons, and only 5 appearances in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Yes, they've had deep runs on three of those occasions, but if you're a fan, it's got to be a tremendous mood killer to embrace a team on a deep run, only to have it fall back in to obscurity immediately. The Hurricanes are one of the only Cup winners to ever miss the dance completely the next year and it has now been eight straight seasons since their last post-season game. That's pretty dreadful.

On top of that, they have struggled to find any dynamic talent to add to their roster, despite all those finishes out of the playoffs. Does anyone look at that team and think they're much of a threat again this year? Who would you get excited about watching on that roster?

Bad teams in new markets are going to struggle. When you have a terrible franchise that misses the playoffs for 75% of the seasons in a 20 year period, then it doesn't matter if they got lucky once and won it all...the fan base will suffer for the brutal mismanagement of the team.




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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697803 is a reply to message #697800 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 15:26

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 13:39


Maybe he can help. But the team has been in Carolina for over 20 yrs, they won a cup. If it was going to work, they should have created some kind of a fan base by now. They should be into that next generation of fans who weren't even born when the team came in but grew up with hockey. As bad as things are in Arizona and I don't know if even a new building in a better location will hurt (though I have been to a hockey game there and the location is brutal) you are starting to see young players coming up. Austin Matthews is a product of there being hockey in Arizona. There have been a few others. But you are starting to see the next generation of fans, the 18, 19, 20, 21 yr old Arizona kids who have grew up with hockey starting to come. So at least there is evidence that hockey is making a small dent in Arizona. But in Carolina. I could be wrong but I don't hear of any local Carolina kids coming up. So I don't even know if hockey has made a dent in Carolina after a cup AND 20+ yrs.


See, I do disagree with this.

I believe hockey is a great game and that given time to enjoy it, people will generally enjoy it.

That said, hockey in Carolina has not ever been consistently good. They've now had 20 NHL seasons, and only 5 appearances in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Yes, they've had deep runs on three of those occasions, but if you're a fan, it's got to be a tremendous mood killer to embrace a team on a deep run, only to have it fall back in to obscurity immediately. The Hurricanes are one of the only Cup winners to ever miss the dance completely the next year and it has now been eight straight seasons since their last post-season game. That's pretty dreadful.

On top of that, they have struggled to find any dynamic talent to add to their roster, despite all those finishes out of the playoffs. Does anyone look at that team and think they're much of a threat again this year? Who would you get excited about watching on that roster?

Bad teams in new markets are going to struggle. When you have a terrible franchise that misses the playoffs for 75% of the seasons in a 20 year period, then it doesn't matter if they got lucky once and won it all...the fan base will suffer for the brutal mismanagement of the team.



Has the hockey in Arizona been much better? I don't think so. Early on right after they left Winnipeg, I think they were OK. There were a few years where the Coyotes were decent and maybe won a playoff round once or twice, I can't quite remember but in reality they haven't done much on the ice in the 20+ years they have been in the league. At least Carolina went on a few runs and won a cup.

The main points of my post is there doesn't seem to be a noticeable impact on the community in Carolina. At least in Arizona, there is youth hockey that is actually producing the odd good player. There is nothing happening in Carolina. So while I have little confidence that Carolina or Arizona will ever succeed, I would have a tiny bit more confidence that IF the Coyotes get a new rink in a better area (which the owner is trying to do) they might have a better chance than the Canes.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697805 is a reply to message #697803 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 16:30


Has the hockey in Arizona been much better? I don't think so. Early on right after they left Winnipeg, I think they were OK. There were a few years where the Coyotes were decent and maybe won a playoff round once or twice, I can't quite remember but in reality they haven't done much on the ice in the 20+ years they have been in the league. At least Carolina went on a few runs and won a cup.

The main points of my post is there doesn't seem to be a noticeable impact on the community in Carolina. At least in Arizona, there is youth hockey that is actually producing the odd good player. There is nothing happening in Carolina. So while I have little confidence that Carolina or Arizona will ever succeed, I would have a tiny bit more confidence that IF the Coyotes get a new rink in a better area (which the owner is trying to do) they might have a better chance than the Canes.


Nope. You're right there. The Coyotes have also sucked hard as an organization. They've made the playoffs 8 times in 20 tries (I should note - Carolina is actually 5/19 - I counted the lockout year by accident). Of those 8 trips, five were in their first six seasons. It's been dreadful since then, and again they've had teams devoid of star power or charisma. They had a stretch of six seasons (seven years) where they didn't make the playoffs, and they've now strung together another five year drought.

You want to run a team in to the ground? Have a terrible franchise forever.

As for grassroots hockey in Carolina, I don't think you or I have any of the stats. I have no idea if it's doing well or not, but simply saying the Phoenix area's produced Matthews and a couple other prospects doesn't mean much. There could be a vibrant hockey community that just hasn't produced a star yet. We just don't know. Unless you want to go pull stats on kids in youth hockey in Carolina versus Arizona, I think we're probably not going to be able to pull any concrete conclusions from this one.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697819 is a reply to message #697805 ]
Thu, 20 July 2017 11:14 Go to previous message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Something to consider this would be the Brick tournament at West Edmonton mall. Teams from all over Canada and the states.

American teams include Boston, California, Connecticut, Chicago, Detroit, Minnisota, and Pennsylvania

This is a decent indicator of where the top youth hockey is coming from.



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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697787 is a reply to message #697678 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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This seems like a really, really bad investment. Unless there is a plan to move them at a later date. Even then...


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697789 is a reply to message #697787 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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They'll become Britain's first NHL team!


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697806 is a reply to message #697678 ]
Wed, 19 July 2017 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Um, Skyler Brind'Amour, the pride of Raleigh youth hockey....


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 Re: Hurricanes "Close to" being sold for $500 million [message #697816 is a reply to message #697806 ]
Thu, 20 July 2017 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 19 July 2017 16:55

Um, Skyler Brind'Amour, the pride of Raleigh youth hockey....


I forgot the Oilers drafted him late. I looked him up, 6th round. 6'2-170 center. I hope the Oilers got him on a good eating and weight program. Well if in the next 8-10 yrs, he's an NHL regular, then I guess I will have to circle back. 6th rounders are long shots but he's got NHL blood in him. Anything is possible.



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