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 Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811947]
Mon, 19 September 2022 10:11 Go to next message
MJ is currently online MJ
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The #Oilers have signed defenceman Jason Demers & forward Jake Virtanen to professional tryout agreements (PTOs).

https://twitter.com/EdmontonOilers/status/157188821221758156 8

[Updated on: Mon, 19 September 2022 11:38]


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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811948 is a reply to message #811947 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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Demers, whatever. If he is playing in our top 6 at any point this year, it means something went drastically wrong.

But Virtanen? At only 26 with his speed, with the guys he could end up playing with - from a purely hockey standpoint, this certainly has a chance to be a homerun. It could also be a whole bunch of nothing, but I'm optimistic.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811951 is a reply to message #811948 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Mike wrote on Mon, 19 September 2022 10:29

Demers, whatever. If he is playing in our top 6 at any point this year, it means something went drastically wrong.

But Virtanen? At only 26 with his speed, with the guys he could end up playing with - from a purely hockey standpoint, this certainly has a chance to be a homerun. It could also be a whole bunch of nothing, but I'm optimistic.


Demers is probably just a guy you use to fill the vet requirement in pre-season games. And if by some miracle he has overcome years of injuries and plays good again, good for him, would be a nice surprise.

Virtanen at 750k would probably be useful. Ignoring all the bad stuff surrounding him. We could still never be as scummy as the Flames :)



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811952 is a reply to message #811951 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Of all the player allegations over the past several years, (ok past all the time)Virtanen's sounds the most likely to be a cash grab.
Prefaced by saying, if the girl changed her mind at any time, shows over and should have stopped.

In his case, the girl drove from Calgary to his Vancouver hotel (didn't schedule a place in Vancouver for herself to stay anywhere else)
her version of events - said she was uncomfortable going to his room, didn't even know she was driving to a hotel to see him as she only had the address, and said no repeatedly and he didn't stop. After she cried, but then slept in the bed beside him
She first said she didn't consent to any kissing or touching, then said she consented to kissing and nothing more.
His version of events - after an extended period of texting back and forth, she met him at his hotel, they fooled around happily, then they spent the night together and she never once said no or that she wasn't comfortable.

Given that scenario and the fact that this case was only brought to light after he signed a $5.1 mil contract... serious shadows.

Unfortunately, someone's life is anywhere from seriously impacted to ruined because of this. If it actually did happen, I hope that poor girl is able to get the help she needs. If it didn't happen, Jake will always have an asterisk by his name, like so many others do. Either way, it's not fair for somebody.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811961 is a reply to message #811948 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Mike wrote on Mon, 19 September 2022 09:29

Demers, whatever. If he is playing in our top 6 at any point this year, it means something went drastically wrong.

But Virtanen? At only 26 with his speed, with the guys he could end up playing with - from a purely hockey standpoint, this certainly has a chance to be a homerun. It could also be a whole bunch of nothing, but I'm optimistic.


Virtanen will be interesting to see his physical condition, and how serious he is about re-claiming an NHL career, in Vancouver as a higher draft pick, they tried using him higher up the line up, didn't pan out, he might work out as a regular 4th or occasional 3rd line.. a Kassian type replacement.

Demers I don't have high hopes for, but the skill and defensive hockey IQ is still there, just depends on if he was the legs to handle reduced minutes.. not bad veteran injury depth.. Woody had him in San Jose, so knows him well.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811955 is a reply to message #811947 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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I knew a guy that worked on the Canucks Strength & Conditioning staff. Based on what he told me, Virtanen never seemed like a guy that took hockey all that seriously.

If you're looking for a guy that can come in and score a bit and doesn't come with a ton of baggage, Tyler Ennis is skating in Edmonton, according to Elliotte Friedman.

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1570538617277386752?s =20&t=voRo7g0bmG-5KZKGhKaeLg



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811963 is a reply to message #811955 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Goose wrote on Mon, 19 September 2022 12:13

I knew a guy that worked on the Canucks Strength & Conditioning staff. Based on what he told me, Virtanen never seemed like a guy that took hockey all that seriously.

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1570538617277386752?s =20&t=voRo7g0bmG-5KZKGhKaeLg



Yeah Virtanen isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, I was talking to a guy here in Van who coached a youth roller hockey team, they were down in California at a roller hockey tournament, and ran into Virtanen down there playing for a Vancouver elite team, which would've voided his contract if injured, all the kids took pictures with him, all over social media.. not a thinker.. he would have been early twenties then, hopefully his stint in the KHL has focused his determination on an NHL career.




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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811971 is a reply to message #811947 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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I understand looking for late off-season gold but I don't think either of these 2 will make the team.
Virtanen got 16 points in 36 KHL games last year. Good enough for 166th in the league. I have never seen a KHL game but assume if you can't score there it will be tough to contribute in the NHL.

Demers is 34. He was never a big scorer so maybe he is a shot blocking aficionado.

From a hockey perspective there is no harm to PTO's, maybe one works out.
If Virtanen makes the team I hope they are sure he isn't a dirtbag.



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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811972 is a reply to message #811971 ]
Mon, 19 September 2022 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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PlusOne wrote on Mon, 19 September 2022 18:48

I understand looking for late off-season gold but I don't think either of these 2 will make the team.
Virtanen got 16 points in 36 KHL games last year. Good enough for 166th in the league. I have never seen a KHL game but assume if you can't score there it will be tough to contribute in the NHL.

Demers is 34. He was never a big scorer so maybe he is a shot blocking aficionado.

From a hockey perspective there is no harm to PTO's, maybe one works out.
If Virtanen makes the team I hope they are sure he isn't a dirtbag.


Two free chips on the roulette wheel.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-irQCb3Jb18I/VogZjjFb-jI/AAAAAAAAGLw/PmmPo-LJdoU/s1600/Roulette+wheel+animated+4.gif



McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811981 is a reply to message #811971 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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PlusOne wrote on Mon, 19 September 2022 19:48

I understand looking for late off-season gold but I don't think either of these 2 will make the team.
Virtanen got 16 points in 36 KHL games last year. Good enough for 166th in the league. I have never seen a KHL game but assume if you can't score there it will be tough to contribute in the NHL.

Demers is 34. He was never a big scorer so maybe he is a shot blocking aficionado.

From a hockey perspective there is no harm to PTO's, maybe one works out.
If Virtanen makes the team I hope they are sure he isn't a dirtbag.


Both of these are guys that aren't likely making the team.

That said, I think it's a stupid move to bring Virtanen to camp, because the Oilers already have a bit of an image issue, and now we've brought someone else with serious character issues in to the mix.

Let's be clear - prosecutors don't bring forward sexual assault cases very often, because it's really hard to successfully get a conviction. When there are only the two people involved in the room, then reasonable doubt is a very hard thing to overcome. That's why most allegations never get past the allegation stage.

This was a strong enough case that a prosecutor brought charges and the Canucks saw enough merit in the case to void the contract with the player and send him packing. This did not start with any push for money, rather the girl made a comment on a message board, and a reporter saw it and followed up and got the story.

At the time that story broke, I thought it had to be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt because it was all anonymous and the person hadn't wanted to even put her name on things enough to go to the police. That said, after telling her story to the reporter, she did decide to go to the police so she did take that risk - understanding that pushing this to trial would expose her to public scrutiny about her decision making (as seen in a post above) and to people questioning her motives.

Now, if this was Patrick Kane, you would have the cover of a few years since the allegations against him, as well as the fact he's really good at hockey which would make some people avert their eyes from any scummy past, but with Virtanen, this is incredibly recent and he's not good at hockey. You get all the bad press - and the Oilers got roasted on hockey twitter yesterday for this move - and virtually no upside. He sucks. His last NHL season he scored 5-0-5 in 38 games. He's under half a point a game in the KHL. He's a 4th liner at best, and he's never had good underlying numbers.

It's just another guy who once got a good hit on McDavid who the Oilers decide to take on, despite the fact he's also probably an awful person. We may as well have brought back Brandon Manning again.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811984 is a reply to message #811981 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811986 is a reply to message #811984 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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that's why I said in the other thread, at this point... why not?


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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811987 is a reply to message #811986 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 10:31

that's why I said in the other thread, at this point... why not?


I generally think doubling down on dirtbag isn't a good look.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811989 is a reply to message #811984 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 10:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.


Winning fixes this!

Finally some real pressure to perform in this org.

Maybe it's all intentional. Ran out of ways to motivate this org of tired old boys club members. Winning being able to distract people from bringing in every questionable person available is the boost we needed.



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"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811990 is a reply to message #811984 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 10:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.

You're playing games with language to further your point disingenuously. If you're going to say he's an accused rapist you should also say he was acquitted... unless you're intentionally spoiling the well.

At this point I think it's time for you and your friends to put up or shut up. Vote with your dollars. Personally I don't think hockey fans are hockey fans because they have a side passion for vigilante justice. Maybe some are but I have a feeling most are hockey fans because of the hockey.

Now, if you're saying he's not a good enough hockey player and the baggage is another negative, fine. But this feels like a pompous witch hunt.




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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811997 is a reply to message #811990 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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Hated Virtanen ever since the world juniors he lost us with bad penalties. No clue what makes mgmt think he improves the team, regardless of baggage.


You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811998 is a reply to message #811990 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 11:16

Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 10:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.

You're playing games with language to further your point disingenuously. If you're going to say he's an accused rapist you should also say he was acquitted... unless you're intentionally spoiling the well.

At this point I think it's time for you and your friends to put up or shut up. Vote with your dollars. Personally I don't think hockey fans are hockey fans because they have a side passion for vigilante justice. Maybe some are but I have a feeling most are hockey fans because of the hockey.

Now, if you're saying he's not a good enough hockey player and the baggage is another negative, fine. But this feels like a pompous witch hunt.




What I'm saying is that whether someone can be proven to be a rapist beyond any reasonable doubt is significantly different than that it's more likely than not that the person did it.

I think that people should still face consequences other than judicial ones for extremely bad behaviour. Rape and assault are right up there for me on the list of really bad behaviour. If the case facts would lead a reasonable person to think that someone did that bad thing, then I think that should impact them. It was enough for the Canucks - they didn't even know if he was going to get charged, but they heard the story and decided that they didn't want to be associated with the player any further.

I think there's two ways you can look at this running a sports team - either you keep it clean, and expect that players are going to be held to a code of conduct (that would be my preference), or you use a risk/reward approach to this kind of thing, deciding how much backlash you're likely to see from a move, and how risky the player is to continue acting poorly and what the likely reward would be from having him on the team.

The Oilers have no confidence in Virtanen's ability to move the needle. If they did, he has a contract and not a tryout. He had a poor NHL season, followed by a poor KHL season, so there's not really any reason to think his trajectory should lead to a great NHL season now. I've seen some people wondering if he can be a top-six player - well, he never was before, so that's probably an unreasonable hope.

Even if you go by the risk/reward model, this is a bad move. They get all the negative flak for bringing this guy in, without any reward other than maybe a few incels who think sexual assault is overblown feel like Holland has their back.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812003 is a reply to message #811998 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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That is such a horrific statement. Reasonable doubt means it's likely a person did something? Come on Adam, you have to understand that's an impossible standard for any person or organization to maintain.

I'm willing to accept this is a bad move because of the risk-reward matrix... but it sounds like you're willing to accept the move if the potential reward was greater. Making the first half of your posts sound very arbitrary.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812005 is a reply to message #812003 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:28

That is such a horrific statement. Reasonable doubt means it's likely a person did something? Come on Adam, you have to understand that's an impossible standard for any person or organization to maintain.

I'm willing to accept this is a bad move because of the risk-reward matrix... but it sounds like you're willing to accept the move if the potential reward was greater. Making the first half of your posts sound very arbitrary.


That's not what I said.

Reasonable doubt means that there's a chance it wasn't them. Basically, you have to be 99% sure to convict. In a civil trial, the burden is more likely did than didn't so you only need to be 51%. I think that might still be low, but if you examine the facts and think there's a good chance there's something there - as the Canucks did with Virtanen, then my preference is for the team to set a good example and say this stuff matters and shouldn't be tolerated, and we don't want players who do that on our team.

I don't think the court's standard for not imprisoning people should be the same as the team's for whether they're worth dealing with or not.

As I said, I would prefer the team take that approach to the risk/reward approach as I'm uncomfortable having guys who rape or beat up women on the team. I think this move fails on both approaches.




"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812010 is a reply to message #812005 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:33

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:28

That is such a horrific statement. Reasonable doubt means it's likely a person did something? Come on Adam, you have to understand that's an impossible standard for any person or organization to maintain.

I'm willing to accept this is a bad move because of the risk-reward matrix... but it sounds like you're willing to accept the move if the potential reward was greater. Making the first half of your posts sound very arbitrary.


That's not what I said.

Reasonable doubt means that there's a chance it wasn't them. Basically, you have to be 99% sure to convict. In a civil trial, the burden is more likely did than didn't so you only need to be 51%. I think that might still be low, but if you examine the facts and think there's a good chance there's something there - as the Canucks did with Virtanen, then my preference is for the team to set a good example and say this stuff matters and shouldn't be tolerated, and we don't want players who do that on our team.

I don't think the court's standard for not imprisoning people should be the same as the team's for whether they're worth dealing with or not.

As I said, I would prefer the team take that approach to the risk/reward approach as I'm uncomfortable having guys who rape or beat up women on the team. I think this move fails on both approaches.



You think the Canucks examined the facts before giving in to the lynch mob? Come on. No one cares about the facts here. This is pure optics. I really think you need to vote with your dollars and eyes.

It's completely ludicrous to say you don't want people who do that on the team when the courts can't prove he did it. Which would probably be putting the team in some legal danger. Any percentage difference between your 99 and 51 is pointless speculation. The Oilers are a hockey team, not a vigilante force. Let the courts deal with the justice part (civil or criminal). The hockey team should focus on hockey not arbitrary justice. Again, the purity test is always a doomed concept.




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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812022 is a reply to message #812010 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:49

The hockey team should focus on hockey


lol at the idea of the Oilers making decisions based purely on a focus of making the hockey team better



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17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812023 is a reply to message #812022 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Goose wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 15:58

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:49

The hockey team should focus on hockey


lol at the idea of the Oilers making decisions based purely on a focus of making the hockey team better

I mean, it should be possible, but we know it doesn’t happen.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812025 is a reply to message #812022 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Goose wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 15:58

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:49

The hockey team should focus on hockey


lol at the idea of the Oilers making decisions based purely on a focus of making the hockey team better


You can prioritize 2 things at once. Should order them though.

#1) Comfortable work environment full of people Katz wants to share drinks with and can provide good stories from the old days.

#2) Getting any player, that by the judgement of the people that satisfy #1, who has a chance to help the team.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812031 is a reply to message #812010 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:49

Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:33

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:28

That is such a horrific statement. Reasonable doubt means it's likely a person did something? Come on Adam, you have to understand that's an impossible standard for any person or organization to maintain.

I'm willing to accept this is a bad move because of the risk-reward matrix... but it sounds like you're willing to accept the move if the potential reward was greater. Making the first half of your posts sound very arbitrary.


That's not what I said.

Reasonable doubt means that there's a chance it wasn't them. Basically, you have to be 99% sure to convict. In a civil trial, the burden is more likely did than didn't so you only need to be 51%. I think that might still be low, but if you examine the facts and think there's a good chance there's something there - as the Canucks did with Virtanen, then my preference is for the team to set a good example and say this stuff matters and shouldn't be tolerated, and we don't want players who do that on our team.

I don't think the court's standard for not imprisoning people should be the same as the team's for whether they're worth dealing with or not.

As I said, I would prefer the team take that approach to the risk/reward approach as I'm uncomfortable having guys who rape or beat up women on the team. I think this move fails on both approaches.



You think the Canucks examined the facts before giving in to the lynch mob? Come on. No one cares about the facts here. This is pure optics. I really think you need to vote with your dollars and eyes.

It's completely ludicrous to say you don't want people who do that on the team when the courts can't prove he did it. Which would probably be putting the team in some legal danger. Any percentage difference between your 99 and 51 is pointless speculation. The Oilers are a hockey team, not a vigilante force. Let the courts deal with the justice part (civil or criminal). The hockey team should focus on hockey not arbitrary justice. Again, the purity test is always a doomed concept.




Virtanen isn’t a good hockey player. He’s taken selfish penalties at the worst times. That being said if he doesn’t make this team it should based on his skill set, ability to fit in and not past accusations.

If I only cheered for the good people in sport I probably wouldn’t own a TV. The leagues are filled with deplorable people.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812064 is a reply to message #812031 ]
Wed, 21 September 2022 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 20:55



If I only cheered for the good people in sport I probably wouldn’t own a TV. The leagues are filled with deplorable people.


98% this. I left the 2% buffer because at some point I can no longer cheer for guys, even if they are good and in an Oiler jersey.

I used the term with Keith. To enjoy most forms of entertainment you need to separate the art from the artist. Music, movies, TV, sports are full of bad humans.

Also, I am willing to bet many online who are condeming the signing of bad players are worse humans themselves. Hypocrites rule the 'net.

I dont think we will have to cross that bridge with Virtanen as by all accounts he is a bad hockey player. Twitter is full of info on players who outscored him in the KHL. Lots of former Oilers who were cast aside so if he is trying to earn a spot on offensive contribution I would put the odds at slim to none we ever see him in a regular season game.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812353 is a reply to message #812064 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Update on Virtanen:

He gone.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812354 is a reply to message #812353 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quote:

Darren Dreger
@DarrenDreger
Jake Virtanen has been released from his PTO with the Oilers.




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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812357 is a reply to message #812353 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53

Update on Virtanen:

He gone.


Good he was terrible at hockey. I feel like the only people cheering for him were douchebags who find it edgy to cheer for bad people who "deserve" a second chance



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812360 is a reply to message #812357 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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PlusOne wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 13:35

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53

Update on Virtanen:

He gone.


Good he was terrible at hockey. I feel like the only people cheering for him were douchebags who find it edgy to cheer for bad people who "deserve" a second chance

Deserve isn't the right word. Some of us think a second chance should be possible. There are even some who think a second chance shouldn't be necessary upon acquittal. Just a chance. Shrug. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about it anymore because he was terrible at hockey.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812370 is a reply to message #812360 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 14:37

PlusOne wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 13:35

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53

Update on Virtanen:

He gone.


Good he was terrible at hockey. I feel like the only people cheering for him were douchebags who find it edgy to cheer for bad people who "deserve" a second chance

Deserve isn't the right word. Some of us think a second chance should be possible. There are even some who think a second chance shouldn't be necessary upon acquittal. Just a chance. Shrug. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about it anymore because he was terrible at hockey.


You say "some of us" implying you are part of the group. So were you;
- cheering for him?
- thought he deserved a chance?
- a douchebag?
- edgy?

I dont want to assume your stance here but all I meant is that he had done nothing to earn his spot and his biggest fans seemed to have a lot in common.
I am all for second chances for those that do deserve it so I think it is the right word. I dont think anything about him, from his talent to character earned him anything. Take the accusations away and he was still a guy who had low effort, was rumored to not train or practice hard and often hurt his team on the ice.
Last year he was outscored in the KHL by numerous NHL castoffs.

He brought nothing to the table but nothing lost given it was a PTO and he is gone now. I just think for a team with many black marks in the PR department they would want to avoid a guy with very little upside and, rightly or wrongly, a negative connotation to many.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812375 is a reply to message #812353 ]
Thu, 06 October 2022 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53

Update on Virtanen:

He gone.


Had a tiny bit of hope he would get back some of his game from 3 years ago where it looked like he was finally on an upswing.

NOPE.

That's the same guy that had 2 crap seasons after that one.

Oh and of course all the other stuff around him. Surprised it look this long to dump him honestly. Was pretty clear he didn't have it 2-3 games in. Guess the org felt zero pressure to act regarding the personal issues.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 October 2022 23:47]


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- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812385 is a reply to message #812375 ]
Fri, 07 October 2022 12:05 Go to previous message
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 22:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 06 October 2022 12:53

Update on Virtanen:

He gone.


Had a tiny bit of hope he would get back some of his game from 3 years ago where it looked like he was finally on an upswing.

NOPE.

That's the same guy that had 2 crap seasons after that one.

Oh and of course all the other stuff around him. Surprised it look this long to dump him honestly. Was pretty clear he didn't have it 2-3 games in. Guess the org felt zero pressure to act regarding the personal issues.


I heard he tipped the scales at 230+.. probably too heavy to be effective he looked average speed.. not really engaged.. he had all summer to get in shape.. didn't happen.. it'll be interesting to see where he ends up.. probably AHL if he can.. or Europe.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812002 is a reply to message #811990 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 11:16


Now, if you're saying he's not a good enough hockey player and the baggage is another negative, fine. But this feels like a pompous witch hunt.


Pomposity is what I do best.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811994 is a reply to message #811984 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 09:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.


Lets just hope you never get selected for jury duty.



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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #811996 is a reply to message #811994 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I think he's saying 1) Jake's not good and shouldn't be here even if he didn't have baggage and 2) our organization is a tire fire.


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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812001 is a reply to message #811994 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:51

Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 09:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.


Lets just hope you never get selected for jury duty.



You don't understand - the burden of proof for a jury is exceptionally high. You can think someone absolutely did it, but if the defence can show enough evidence to make you think he might not have? Then your duty is to vote to acquit. Acquittal isn't equivalent to innocence though.

For a relevant example - Adnan Syed was the main subject of the podcast Serial. He was convicted of the murder of his girlfriend and has spent the last 20 years in jail for that murder. The podcast showed significant reasons to doubt that he was the killer and that started the ball rolling towards his release this week.

That said, the host of the show, when she reached the end of her podcast said she was left uncertain of what had actually happened. She didn't think it out of the realm of possibility that he had killed the victim, although she was certain that there was way more than reasonable doubt that he had, and that there had been a rush to justice.

In the few years since that podcast was made, the host has been criticized for not doing more to push for Syed's release. I don't think that was ever incumbent on her - she did her part and she was not convinced that he might not have been the killer, so does she really need to do more and tirelessly advocate for him? Her podcast did mobilize a lot of people to act and that ended with this result. But if she has some level of doubt about his innocence, then she probably shouldn't have done any more than she already did.

If I was on a jury for a sexual assault, I would first of all try everything in my power to avoid being on a jury, because it can be time consuming and I have a job to do that that would be a massive distraction from. But failing that, I would have to listen to the case and see if the prosecution was able to fully convince me that this person did this thing. If I'm only pretty sure? That's unfortunately a reason to vote for acquittal, because in our justice system, the priority is on making sure innocent people aren't wrongly convicted, even if that means that sometimes guilty people are wrongly released.

I don't think it wipes the slate though - especially if there's enough evidence to believe that the party did what they were accused of even if reasonable doubt still exists. OJ Simpson was acquitted of two murders...do you really believe it wasn't him that did it? The civil trial from the family of the victims was successful at the lower burden of proof, so the court did ultimately hold him responsible.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812004 is a reply to message #812001 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:26

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 13:51

Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 09:28

One more comment on this - a friend of mine said yesterday that the Oilers now have an accused rapist on a tryout, trying to make a team to play alongside an accused assaulter of women, on a team run by a guy who set up a fund to cover up rape allegations for Team Canada and owned by a guy who's had a couple of accusations of sexual impropriety, including most recently when he was "buying movie ideas" from a teenager.

Safe to say that the team's image isn't exactly great right now. It's hard for us die-hards to move on from the team, even with all that, but man - they have to be losing casual fans, especially female ones through this callous disregard.


Lets just hope you never get selected for jury duty.



You don't understand - the burden of proof for a jury is exceptionally high. You can think someone absolutely did it, but if the defence can show enough evidence to make you think he might not have? Then your duty is to vote to acquit. Acquittal isn't equivalent to innocence though.

For a relevant example - Adnan Syed was the main subject of the podcast Serial. He was convicted of the murder of his girlfriend and has spent the last 20 years in jail for that murder. The podcast showed significant reasons to doubt that he was the killer and that started the ball rolling towards his release this week.

That said, the host of the show, when she reached the end of her podcast said she was left uncertain of what had actually happened. She didn't think it out of the realm of possibility that he had killed the victim, although she was certain that there was way more than reasonable doubt that he had, and that there had been a rush to justice.

In the few years since that podcast was made, the host has been criticized for not doing more to push for Syed's release. I don't think that was ever incumbent on her - she did her part and she was not convinced that he might not have been the killer, so does she really need to do more and tirelessly advocate for him? Her podcast did mobilize a lot of people to act and that ended with this result. But if she has some level of doubt about his innocence, then she probably shouldn't have done any more than she already did.

If I was on a jury for a sexual assault, I would first of all try everything in my power to avoid being on a jury, because it can be time consuming and I have a job to do that that would be a massive distraction from. But failing that, I would have to listen to the case and see if the prosecution was able to fully convince me that this person did this thing. If I'm only pretty sure? That's unfortunately a reason to vote for acquittal, because in our justice system, the priority is on making sure innocent people aren't wrongly convicted, even if that means that sometimes guilty people are wrongly released.

I don't think it wipes the slate though - especially if there's enough evidence to believe that the party did what they were accused of even if reasonable doubt still exists. OJ Simpson was acquitted of two murders...do you really believe it wasn't him that did it? The civil trial from the family of the victims was successful at the lower burden of proof, so the court did ultimately hold him responsible.


The fact remains you should never serve on a jury.



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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812006 is a reply to message #812004 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:31


The fact remains you should never serve on a jury.


I agree in that it would be a huge waste of my time.

However I am curious what your rationale is here.



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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812032 is a reply to message #812006 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:35

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 20 September 2022 14:31


The fact remains you should never serve on a jury.


I agree in that it would be a huge waste of my time.

However I am curious what your rationale is here.


I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but you appear to have a bias. I’m not judging. I know I do and so do many people when it come SA cases. I automatically skew towards the victim, because of life experiences, under reporting, and how society still victim blames. “Boys will be boys”. “A sexual charge will ruin his life”. Etc.




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 Re: Virtanen and Demers Sign PTOs [message #812014 is a reply to message #811947 ]
Tue, 20 September 2022 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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Oh god, just watched Virtanen's interview. I know he's generally dumb, but holy crap, did the guy not seek any help in how to reply to questions he knew would be coming? He can barely speak coherently about any of it, just a few cliché phrases.

Holland is entertaining, basically saying that if Virtanen isn't innocent it would mean we can no longer trust the justice system. I guess that would mean ANARCHY, or something.

Still OK with trying Virtanen, since he didn't pass my "you can't be on my team" threshold of 1st degree convicted murder. But holy crap this org and Virtanen are embarrassing themselves.



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