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 Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675689]
Wed, 03 August 2016 08:36 Go to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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3 Cups

Which Trade was Worse?[ 77 vote(s) ]
1.Petry for a Second and Condition Fifth Round Pick 58 / 75%
2.Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson 19 / 25%

Which trade was worse:

Petry:

P/60: 17th in the league (of all d-men)
Corsi: 11.05
Ozone: 45%

Return: unmagical beans

Hall:

P/60: 1st in the league, of all LW, 14th in league, of all forwards
Corsi: 5.68
Ozone: 54%

Return: Adam Larsson

My thoughts, are that there is a bit of wait and see here. It is possible that the Oilers win the Hall trade in the end, but there is more to lose out on in Taylor Hall than in Jeff Petry.

As far as certainty goes, the Petry trade in my mind is worse. Trading a highly useful player, and at a hard to find position, for an outside chance at a player two to five years down the road, is a bad, bad, and super bad decision.

Even with uncertainty in the mix, unless Larsson gets kicked back to the third pairing, the gap between what Edmonton got for Petry versus what they got for Hall is much wider.

Sidenote: I think the Oilers would be a playoff team right now if they had the exact same roster, plus Jeff Petry.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675690 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 08:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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3 Cups

I think the Petry trade is much much worse because of the absolutely terrible asset management. The "show me" contract was insane, the overvaluing of Schultz, the handling of the trade itself. All brutal.
The Oilers lost the Larsson deal but at least it was them trading for something we needed. Of course we all wanted a game breaking defenceman for a lesser piece but at least we traded a surplus (forward) for a position of need.




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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675691 is a reply to message #675690 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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4 Cups

Huge Hall fan, never much of a Petry fan, but Larsson at least has a chance to make that trade palatable as early as this year.

That Petry trade, or more importantly, the failure to sign him to the cheap (~$4M was it?) long term deal he wanted just to let him go for nothing, is one of the most stupid things I've seen from this historically stupid management team.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675692 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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5 Cups

There's atleast some logic to getting Larsson.

Trading Petry was the "brain" trust having no concept of D men. Pushing Petry out the door (who became a big piece of the Habs blueline) while covering Schultz (nuff said).



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675693 is a reply to message #675692 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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So, Chai might be a bit smarter than MacT. He wait and hope. Waiting and hoping is a craft that has been tested in fire for Oilers fans, we are experts at this point.


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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675694 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Considering how terrible the Oilers D group has been, I think losing Petry without getting a player back was more damaging to the team. You can even argue that losing our only capable RHD, leading us to another god awful season put us in the position where we had to make a risky deal to get a capable D on the right side. Even worse is how it is confirmed Petry wanted a multi-year deal around 4M that summer that MacT decided Nikitin was more worthy of the "4M price point".

Chia's move was a risky move to try to fix the team.

MacT's move was just a product of his stupidity and there is really no way to put a positive spin on it.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675695 is a reply to message #675694 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 09:03



MacT's move was just a product of his stupidity and there is really no way to put a positive spin on it.


It may have contributed to his promotionation?



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675698 is a reply to message #675695 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Magnum wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 09:05

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 09:03



MacT's move was just a product of his stupidity and there is really no way to put a positive spin on it.


It may have contributed to his promotionation?


Among other things? :)

I think even Lowe would have recognised what a mistake it was to give Petry a "show me" deal in his last RFA year.



"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675696 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve  is currently offline Steve
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No Cups

If the Oilers had Petry, they wouldn't have so desperately needed Adam Larsson. In that sense, the Taylor Hall trade probably wouldn't have happened.

Hall + Petry > Lucic + Larsson

For that reason alone, the Petry deal was worse.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675715 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG  is currently offline NetBOG
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4 Cups

Ya, Petry is great. Look how he's turned around the Habs. Oh wait ...........

Guy is a complete loser. Even a bigger loser than Jay Bouwmeester, and he's an all time loser.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675717 is a reply to message #675715 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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NetBOG wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 12:31

Ya, Petry is great. Look how he's turned around the Habs. Oh wait ...........

Guy is a complete loser. Even a bigger loser than Jay Bouwmeester, and he's an all time loser.


What's wrong with his time in Montreal? He played really well for them playing shut down minutes before he got injured. I guess it's his fault they had borderline AHLers fill in for Price and their coach is a complete fraud?

I can't imagine anyone thinking the Oilers wouldn't be better off right now if we signed Petry long term around 4M like MacT should have 2 summers ago.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 August 2016 12:56]


"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

"In Brad we trust"
- All Oilers fans, Present Day

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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675727 is a reply to message #675717 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 11:55

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 12:31

Ya, Petry is great. Look how he's turned around the Habs. Oh wait ...........

Guy is a complete loser. Even a bigger loser than Jay Bouwmeester, and he's an all time loser.


What's wrong with his time in Montreal? He played really well for them playing shut down minutes before he got injured. I guess it's his fault they had borderline AHLers fill in for Price and their coach is a complete fraud?

I can't imagine anyone thinking the Oilers wouldn't be better off right now if we signed Petry long term around 4M like MacT should have 2 summers ago.


Yup, 2 even strength goals against in 12 games while he was on the ice in the playoffs.

Lowest GA/60 of any Mtl defenceman that played all 12 playoff games for them (2nd lowest of any NHL defenceman in the playoffs).

Highest GF% of any Mtl defenceman that played all 12 games (including Subban).

Lowest RelGA/60 among regular Mtl defencemen (6th lowest in the NHL).

Highest RelCF% among regular Mtl defencemen in the playoffs.

All numbers from corsica.hockey




Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675716 is a reply to message #675689 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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I don't even know, because I think they are kind of linked to each other.

Had Petry been re-signed to decent money and that situation not a complete mess, then maybe the Oilers target a different defenseman with more offense to his game. Maybe the Oilers move RNH for Barrie instead of Hall for Larsson.

Would the Oilers be better with Hall/Barrie/Petry than Nugent-Hopkins/Larsson? I mean, I don't know... it's always easy to look back and make decision (such as maybe drafting Larsson instead of Nugent-Hopkins in 2011).

Bottom line is I think both were bad trades. Oilers gave up too much for Larsson, IMO, but at least they got a good NHL, first-pairing guy back. With Petry... I mean, they more or less gave him away.

But I still can't help but wonder if all this plays out a little differently if we had Petry locked up around $4M dollars. He may not be a first pairing guy, but perhaps he changes the focus on what the Oilers were looking to acquire. Maybe, maybe not. At the very least, he would have been a legitimate Top-4 RH defenseman, a position we are currently lacking (unless you think Mark Fayne can step into that position again).

[Updated on: Wed, 03 August 2016 12:52]


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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675718 is a reply to message #675716 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jds308  is currently offline jds308
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The Petry trade was the epitome of incompetent management. It was hands down the worst management of player assets possibly in the history of the team, and that says something. The fact is, MacT chose Jultz over Petry. Even if he was right and Schultz did go on the blossom and be the better of the 2, why the hell you couldn't have both? Oh right, because he had just hitched his wagon to Nikitin, Fayne, and Ference. Think about that. Those 3 plus Schultz were why he decided to move on from Petry. Just idiotic.

As far as connecting that trade to the Hall trade, sure. There's some lines that can be drawn, but you could say the same about countless deals over the years. Bottom line is, MacT made some horrible decisions with the D during his tenure. Petry was never going to be the top pair work horse we all wanted, but he sure wasn't the problem.

The Hall trade was bad, and it was made from a position of desperation BUT at least it wasn't made out of incompetence IMO. It's a risk #Bold.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675728 is a reply to message #675718 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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jds308 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 13:10

The Petry trade was the epitome of incompetent management. It was hands down the worst management of player assets possibly in the history of the team, and that says something. The fact is, MacT chose Jultz over Petry. Even if he was right and Schultz did go on the blossom and be the better of the 2, why the hell you couldn't have both? Oh right, because he had just hitched his wagon to Nikitin, Fayne, and Ference. Think about that. Those 3 plus Schultz were why he decided to move on from Petry. Just idiotic.

As far as connecting that trade to the Hall trade, sure. There's some lines that can be drawn, but you could say the same about countless deals over the years. Bottom line is, MacT made some horrible decisions with the D during his tenure. Petry was never going to be the top pair work horse we all wanted, but he sure wasn't the problem.

The Hall trade was bad, and it was made from a position of desperation BUT at least it wasn't made out of incompetence IMO. It's a risk #Bold.


Ha ha...I think you've gone a bit overboard with the comment that it's the worst asset management in the history of the team. Let me refresh your memory:

August 9, 1988 - Wayne Gretzky, Marty McSorley and Mike Krushelnyski for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, First round picks in 1989, 1991 and 1993 and $15MM cash.

Until we trade McDavid off for pennies on the dollar, there's no matching that trade for poor return.

The funny thing about the Petry deal is that the pieces we have left (including a couple extra picks we threw in) are Talbot, Caleb Jones and Ziyat Paigin. Chiarelli's done a nice job recovering on that one (withthe caveat that two of those pieces are only prospects, and we've seen a lot of good prospects disappear). It does then make it hard to link the trades entirely, because without Talbot, we're still talking about that hole in the lineup instead.

Still, everything that happened around Petry was bizarre. The team seemed to go out of their way to embarrass him during the Eakins era. They talked him down, they apparently gave him an insulting long-term offer that "a player without self-confidence would have taken" and then they signed him about a week in to the summer to a one-year deal without making any serious effort to get him signed to a deal that would avoid UFA. Then, just in case there was any chance left of doing a deal, they healthy scratched him two games in to the season, and didn't even talk about a contract with him until just before the trade deadline. Because so much of this stuff was public, MacTavish had absolutely no leg to stand on in trade negotiations, and he seemed somewhat stunned that he didn't get more for him in a deal. The team just seemed happy that they had the escalator clause on the deal giving them better picks if the Habs advanced in the playoffs (we ended up with a 4th, rather than a 5th because the Canadiens won the first round.)

Hall - I still think that Chiarelli panicked. Watching that video with the Seguin trade discussions, you can see how it happens. Talks escalate, they wrap their head around trading Hall, then somehow get stuck thinking they've decided to trade him so they have to do it. The imaginary deadline of July 1, which only mattered for Subban, suddenly becomes real to them and they feel pressure to make a move and stop the nattering from the media guys about when they're going to get a defenceman.

Ultimately, they're both massive mistakes, but the Petry one was a disaster months in the making. The Hall one was more of a knee-jerk bonehead move. I think the premeditated one might be worse for what it looks like on management, but for me, Hall for Larsson is a bigger step backwards than Petry for magic beans, especially given that Hall had years to go on his contract, while Petry was an impending UFA (due to more inept management).



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675742 is a reply to message #675728 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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WOW, just wow. For fans of a Canadian City who outsiders call "educated" hockey fans, it completely blows me away when I see a poll like this then even more so when fans can come out here with confidence and say that the Hall trade is the worst. It's August. Training camp hasn't even started. The Oilers and Larsson haven't even played a game yet and people are all ready calling it a mistake. There are countless scenarios that could make this a good trade. Hall could blow out his Achilles in training camp and not play a single game while Larsson scores 45 pts, plays 25 mins a night and leads the Oilers to the playoffs.

If Hall scored 82 pts next season but the Devils miss the playoffs and Larsson helps lead the Oilers into the playoffs. It's a good trade. I guess I am different. I want the TEAM to win and if trading Hall for Larsson makes my team win I am all for it. I've been watching my team with Hall as the main guy for the last 6 yrs flying up and down the wing fishing pucks out of the Oilers net while finishing last or almost last for every single one of those years. It wasn't working. Time for a change.

For the silly poll question. I would say the Petry trade was worse because they got noting but draft picks. Hall got them a very good, NHL player signed to a cheap deal that addressed a need and makes them better.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 August 2016 21:11]


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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675744 is a reply to message #675742 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:05

WOW, just wow. For fans of a Canadian City who outsiders call "educated" hockey fans, it completely blows me away when I see a poll like this then even more so when fans can come out here with confidence and say that the Hall trade is the worst. It's August. Training camp hasn't even started. The Oilers and Larsson haven't even played a game yet and people are all ready calling it a mistake. There are countless scenarios that could make this a good trade. Hall could blow out his Achilles in training camp and not play a single game while Larsson scores 45 pts, plays 25 mins a night and leads the Oilers to the playoffs.

If Hall scored 82 pts next season but the Devils miss the playoffs and Larsson helps lead the Oilers into the playoffs. It's a good trade. I guess I am different. I want the TEAM to win and if trading Hall for Larsson makes my team win I am all for it. I've been watching my team with Hall as the main guy for the last 6 yrs flying up and down the wing fishing pucks out of the Oilers net while finishing last or almost last for every single one of those years. It wasn't working. Time for a change.

For the silly poll question. I would say the Petry trade was worse because they got noting but draft picks. Hall got them a very good, NHL player signed to a cheap deal that addressed a need and makes them better.


So you condescendingly tell the collective group of us we're silly for picking a response in this pre-training camp poll and then two paragraphs later agree with the collective of us? With all due respect, are you kidding me?



East of the Rockies and west of the rest.

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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675747 is a reply to message #675744 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 23:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:05

WOW, just wow. For fans of a Canadian City who outsiders call "educated" hockey fans, it completely blows me away when I see a poll like this then even more so when fans can come out here with confidence and say that the Hall trade is the worst. It's August. Training camp hasn't even started. The Oilers and Larsson haven't even played a game yet and people are all ready calling it a mistake. There are countless scenarios that could make this a good trade. Hall could blow out his Achilles in training camp and not play a single game while Larsson scores 45 pts, plays 25 mins a night and leads the Oilers to the playoffs.

If Hall scored 82 pts next season but the Devils miss the playoffs and Larsson helps lead the Oilers into the playoffs. It's a good trade. I guess I am different. I want the TEAM to win and if trading Hall for Larsson makes my team win I am all for it. I've been watching my team with Hall as the main guy for the last 6 yrs flying up and down the wing fishing pucks out of the Oilers net while finishing last or almost last for every single one of those years. It wasn't working. Time for a change.

For the silly poll question. I would say the Petry trade was worse because they got noting but draft picks. Hall got them a very good, NHL player signed to a cheap deal that addressed a need and makes them better.


So you condescendingly tell the collective group of us we're silly for picking a response in this pre-training camp poll and then two paragraphs later agree with the collective of us? With all due respect, are you kidding me?



This dude doesn't understand the concept of best possible return, and marches out ideas like: a trade can't be analyzed until half-way through a season.

In a city recognized for its intelligent hockey fans, if you think everyone else is an idiot, there may be a reason. Pssst: because you're too dumb to understand.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 August 2016 08:48]


2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675748 is a reply to message #675747 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 07:36

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 23:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:05

WOW, just wow. For fans of a Canadian City who outsiders call "educated" hockey fans, it completely blows me away when I see a poll like this then even more so when fans can come out here with confidence and say that the Hall trade is the worst. It's August. Training camp hasn't even started. The Oilers and Larsson haven't even played a game yet and people are all ready calling it a mistake. There are countless scenarios that could make this a good trade. Hall could blow out his Achilles in training camp and not play a single game while Larsson scores 45 pts, plays 25 mins a night and leads the Oilers to the playoffs.

If Hall scored 82 pts next season but the Devils miss the playoffs and Larsson helps lead the Oilers into the playoffs. It's a good trade. I guess I am different. I want the TEAM to win and if trading Hall for Larsson makes my team win I am all for it. I've been watching my team with Hall as the main guy for the last 6 yrs flying up and down the wing fishing pucks out of the Oilers net while finishing last or almost last for every single one of those years. It wasn't working. Time for a change.

For the silly poll question. I would say the Petry trade was worse because they got noting but draft picks. Hall got them a very good, NHL player signed to a cheap deal that addressed a need and makes them better.


So you condescendingly tell the collective group of us we're silly for picking a response in this pre-training camp poll and then two paragraphs later agree with the collective of us? With all due respect, are you kidding me?



This dude doesn't understand the concept of best possible return, and marches out ideas like: a trade can't be analyzed until half-way through a season.

In a city recognized for its intelligent hockey fans, if you think everyone else is an idiot, there may be a reason. Pssst: because you're too dub to understand.


Maybe you trades are kind of like draft classes and you can't evaluate them until about 5 years later to see what happened?

With this in mind, it's probably too early to evaluate either trade, really. But we can debate the Penner deal now! Tambellini got Colton Teubert, a 1st and a 3rd round pick. Penner played two more seasons with the Kings, scored 37 regular season points and 19 more playoff points and won a Stanley Cup ring.

Teubert flamed out, the third round pick (Daniil Zharkov) flamed out, but the first rounder became Oscar Klefbom, who's now scored 35 points for us and should score some more yet. Clear win for the Oilers?

Also traded the same year was Andrew Cogliano for a 2nd round pick (Marco Roy).

Penner was a higher impact player as an Oiler, but Cogliano's had the better career since, so which trade was worse?



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675749 is a reply to message #675748 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Which Trade Was Worse[ 23 vote(s) ]
1.The Penner Trade! 8 / 35%
2.The Cogliano Trade! 15 / 65%

Poll time!



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675750 is a reply to message #675749 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675751 is a reply to message #675750 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 08:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo

Interesting. Maybe there is something to this theory where we can't talk about anything Oilers related until 5 years after the fact. Guh. The next 8 years on this board are going to suck.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675752 is a reply to message #675750 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675753 is a reply to message #675752 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.

Are you freaking kidding me? Erik Cole was a dumpster fire in both the 2009 version of 2009 AND the 2016 version of 2009.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675767 is a reply to message #675753 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 09:14

Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.

Are you freaking kidding me? Erik Cole was a dumpster fire in both the 2009 version of 2009 AND the 2016 version of 2009.


Erik Cole was the heart and soul of this team! I just remember watching him move, and thought: with a guy like that, future 40 goal scorer Ales Hemsky will be on fire for years to come. Then, the unspeakable happened.

Screw you Ales Kotalik!



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675754 is a reply to message #675752 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.


Okay, so maybe I'll give Tambo a pass on that one. But let's look at his trading record:

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183
http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183/2

Ignore those 2012-13 deals, it's still too early to judge Gilbert for Schultz and Rieder for Kessy. But before that, we've got a few we can look at:

Garon for Stone and Sabourin? Pretty bad. Cole for Kotalik and O'Sullivan? Not good. Brodziak for basically nothing? Bad. Grebeshkov for a 2nd and Staios for Johnson a 3rd? Near miraculous given how bad those two were playing...however they spent the picks on Curtis Hamilton and Travis Ewanyk - so bad in the end. Visnovsky for Whitney? Could have been good...but for the injury problems that Whitney had (and his issues pre-dated that trade - Brownlee wrote about them just after it happened). Not doing your due diligence? Bad. Patrick O'Sullivan for Jim Vandermeer? Pretty good actually. Foster for Sutton wasn't bad either. Penner and Cogliano deals? Not good at all (other than the exception that we won't know for 5-10 years what we have in Klefbom).

Given all of that, I'm pretty solidly on the #FireTambo bandwagon now. He's just failed to make the team better with his trades and his signings (Khabibulin, Eager, Hordichuk, Belanger, Foster, Barker, etc. aren't cutting the mustard either). It's time to let him go. Who do we have waiting in the wings who could replace him though?

Oh dear god.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 August 2016 09:20]


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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675756 is a reply to message #675754 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 09:16

Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.


Okay, so maybe I'll give Tambo a pass on that one. But let's look at his trading record:

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183
http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183/2

Ignore those 2012-13 deals, it's still too early to judge Gilbert for Schultz and Rieder for Kessy. But before that, we've got a few we can look at:

Garon for Stone and Sabourin? Pretty bad. Cole for Kotalik and O'Sullivan? Not good. Brodziak for basically nothing? Bad. Grebeshkov for a 2nd and Staios for Johnson a 3rd? Near miraculous given how bad those two were playing...however they spent the picks on Curtis Hamilton and Travis Ewanyk - so bad in the end. Visnovsky for Whitney? Could have been good...but for the injury problems that Whitney had (and his issues pre-dated that trade - Brownlee wrote about them just after it happened). Not doing your due diligence? Bad. Patrick O'Sullivan for Jim Vandermeer? Pretty good actually. Foster for Sutton wasn't bad either. Penner and Cogliano deals? Not good at all (other than the exception that we won't know for 5-10 years what we have in Klefbom).

Given all of that, I'm pretty solidly on the #FireTambo bandwagon now. He's just failed to make the team better with his trades and his signings (Khabibulin, Eager, Hordichuk, Belanger, Foster, Barker, etc. aren't cutting the mustard either). It's time to let him go. Who do we have waiting in the wings who could replace him though?

Oh dear god.

I can't wait until I can judge the hell out of the Grebeshkov re-signing.

This is actually pretty fun. We should do an Oilers 5, 10, and 20 year postmortem and once the season goes to hell in December we should vote on a better season and just live in that moment until draft lottery day.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675801 is a reply to message #675756 ]
Fri, 05 August 2016 14:40 Go to previous message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 09:31

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 09:16

Magnum wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 08:31

I picked the Penner deal, because at the time, he was such a key player, and trading him for futures just set the already bad team back further.

Cogliano was a good player, but he wasn't a real impact guy.

Overall, I'm not thrilled with Tambellini's performance on either of these deals. He gave away real NHLers for magic beans, and it's only good luck in the draft that gave us Klefbom and he didn't even start playing until four years after the deal. These deals helped to ensure a couple more seasons out of the playoffs. #fireTambo


Interesting analysis, but Klefbom has not even played ONE FULL SEASON with the Oilers, and his three partial seasons aren't five years back yet.

Let's bring this up again in 2020, or maybe 2025, so that he's had five years to prove himself after a full five seasons.

How 'bout that Patrick O'sullivan, that was not a good trade. I wish that, six years ago, we still had Erik Cole on the 2009 Oilers.


Okay, so maybe I'll give Tambo a pass on that one. But let's look at his trading record:

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183
http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Steve_T ambellini/183/2

Ignore those 2012-13 deals, it's still too early to judge Gilbert for Schultz and Rieder for Kessy. But before that, we've got a few we can look at:

Garon for Stone and Sabourin? Pretty bad. Cole for Kotalik and O'Sullivan? Not good. Brodziak for basically nothing? Bad. Grebeshkov for a 2nd and Staios for Johnson a 3rd? Near miraculous given how bad those two were playing...however they spent the picks on Curtis Hamilton and Travis Ewanyk - so bad in the end. Visnovsky for Whitney? Could have been good...but for the injury problems that Whitney had (and his issues pre-dated that trade - Brownlee wrote about them just after it happened). Not doing your due diligence? Bad. Patrick O'Sullivan for Jim Vandermeer? Pretty good actually. Foster for Sutton wasn't bad either. Penner and Cogliano deals? Not good at all (other than the exception that we won't know for 5-10 years what we have in Klefbom).

Given all of that, I'm pretty solidly on the #FireTambo bandwagon now. He's just failed to make the team better with his trades and his signings (Khabibulin, Eager, Hordichuk, Belanger, Foster, Barker, etc. aren't cutting the mustard either). It's time to let him go. Who do we have waiting in the wings who could replace him though?

Oh dear god.

I can't wait until I can judge the hell out of the Grebeshkov re-signing.

This is actually pretty fun. We should do an Oilers 5, 10, and 20 year postmortem and once the season goes to hell in December we should vote on a better season and just live in that moment until draft lottery day.


I wonder if this five-year moratorium was worked in to Nicholson's "forensic audit" of the team.

It would go a long way to explaining why everyone is still here 18 months later...(although Howson has finally left the Oilers website).



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675743 is a reply to message #675728 ]
Wed, 03 August 2016 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jds308  is currently offline jds308
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Adam wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 13:48

jds308 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 13:10

The Petry trade was the epitome of incompetent management. It was hands down the worst management of player assets possibly in the history of the team, and that says something. The fact is, MacT chose Jultz over Petry. Even if he was right and Schultz did go on the blossom and be the better of the 2, why the hell you couldn't have both? Oh right, because he had just hitched his wagon to Nikitin, Fayne, and Ference. Think about that. Those 3 plus Schultz were why he decided to move on from Petry. Just idiotic.

As far as connecting that trade to the Hall trade, sure. There's some lines that can be drawn, but you could say the same about countless deals over the years. Bottom line is, MacT made some horrible decisions with the D during his tenure. Petry was never going to be the top pair work horse we all wanted, but he sure wasn't the problem.

The Hall trade was bad, and it was made from a position of desperation BUT at least it wasn't made out of incompetence IMO. It's a risk #Bold.


Ha ha...I think you've gone a bit overboard with the comment that it's the worst asset management in the history of the team. Let me refresh your memory:

August 9, 1988 - Wayne Gretzky, Marty McSorley and Mike Krushelnyski for Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, First round picks in 1989, 1991 and 1993 and $15MM cash.

Until we trade McDavid off for pennies on the dollar, there's no matching that trade for poor return.

The funny thing about the Petry deal is that the pieces we have left (including a couple extra picks we threw in) are Talbot, Caleb Jones and Ziyat Paigin. Chiarelli's done a nice job recovering on that one (withthe caveat that two of those pieces are only prospects, and we've seen a lot of good prospects disappear). It does then make it hard to link the trades entirely, because without Talbot, we're still talking about that hole in the lineup instead.

Still, everything that happened around Petry was bizarre. The team seemed to go out of their way to embarrass him during the Eakins era. They talked him down, they apparently gave him an insulting long-term offer that "a player without self-confidence would have taken" and then they signed him about a week in to the summer to a one-year deal without making any serious effort to get him signed to a deal that would avoid UFA. Then, just in case there was any chance left of doing a deal, they healthy scratched him two games in to the season, and didn't even talk about a contract with him until just before the trade deadline. Because so much of this stuff was public, MacTavish had absolutely no leg to stand on in trade negotiations, and he seemed somewhat stunned that he didn't get more for him in a deal. The team just seemed happy that they had the escalator clause on the deal giving them better picks if the Habs advanced in the playoffs (we ended up with a 4th, rather than a 5th because the Canadiens won the first round.)

Hall - I still think that Chiarelli panicked. Watching that video with the Seguin trade discussions, you can see how it happens. Talks escalate, they wrap their head around trading Hall, then somehow get stuck thinking they've decided to trade him so they have to do it. The imaginary deadline of July 1, which only mattered for Subban, suddenly becomes real to them and they feel pressure to make a move and stop the nattering from the media guys about when they're going to get a defenceman.

Ultimately, they're both massive mistakes, but the Petry one was a disaster months in the making. The Hall one was more of a knee-jerk bonehead move. I think the premeditated one might be worse for what it looks like on management, but for me, Hall for Larsson is a bigger step backwards than Petry for magic beans, especially given that Hall had years to go on his contract, while Petry was an impending UFA (due to more inept management).


Let me clarify my point with regards to the handling of Petry. I was referring to management, not ownership. I lived through the ugly trade you're you're referring to which has an anniversary coming up in a few days. The trade itself was god awful, but not for one second can anyone think that the return was due to Glen Sathers incompetence. He was a shrewd, capable GM. His hands were tied behind his back by a corrupt, bankrupt owner. That trade was 100% about the $15M, Sather had no choice but take what LA would give him. And one last point, Gelinas played a big role in the '90 cup whereas 99 never touched it again. (not implying that I think the Oilers won the deal, just saying)

Back to Petry... if MacT was under instruction from Katz to destroy whatever value Petry had left before trading him off for whatever he could, then fair enough... MacT can have a pass on the trade. But by all accounts, this was purely MacT hitching his wagon to the wrong horse and making that very public. I would take the Lowe vs Comrie battle over the MacT/Petry saga. At least Lowe could say Comrie was being a douche as well. Petry did nothing wrong except put his head down and play hockey.

I agree with you that the Hall trade was a panic move, but it was tied to the Lucic signing more than anything else. I can respect Chia for having the balls to go for it and try something. If it doesn't work out, what's the worst that's going to happen? Lottery pick again? Break the playoff futility streak? Those things were going to happen if we didn't make the trade, so I'm ok with this.

We've had GM's for 10 years either doing nothing, just rearranging the deck chairs, plugging 4 #6 defenseman into the roster hoping one of them catches lightning and morphs into a #1, or banking on the next 18 year stud to come along and save his job. NHL teams need NHL players. Chia acquired and NHL d-man that by all accounts fills a major hole in the roster. No Oilers GM has done that since who? Pronger? Sourray????

The Hall deal was poor value for the asset, but it was not incompetent.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 August 2016 21:43]


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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675769 is a reply to message #675743 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DUFFMAN  is currently offline DUFFMAN
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jds308 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:41

The Hall deal was poor value for the asset, but it was not incompetent.



The more I think about it the more I think that Chia viewed the deal as Lucic + Larsson for Hall. Can you imagine what would have happened if we signed Lucic but hadn't traded Hall yet? Pennies on the dollar if we're lucky - far worse than the Larsson deal.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675770 is a reply to message #675769 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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DUFFMAN wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 12:35

jds308 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:41

The Hall deal was poor value for the asset, but it was not incompetent.



The more I think about it the more I think that Chia viewed the deal as Lucic + Larsson for Hall. Can you imagine what would have happened if we signed Lucic but hadn't traded Hall yet? Pennies on the dollar if we're lucky - far worse than the Larsson deal.


I disagree. If I were to guess (and since I wasn't in the room there's no way of actually knowing) I think Chia realized the Oilers could never win with Hall on the team because McDavid is now the dominant player. All contracts, players, and assets must be utilized so they converge when McDavid is in his prime cup winning window.



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675777 is a reply to message #675769 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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DUFFMAN wrote on Thu, 04 August 2016 12:35

jds308 wrote on Wed, 03 August 2016 21:41

The Hall deal was poor value for the asset, but it was not incompetent.



The more I think about it the more I think that Chia viewed the deal as Lucic + Larsson for Hall. Can you imagine what would have happened if we signed Lucic but hadn't traded Hall yet? Pennies on the dollar if we're lucky - far worse than the Larsson deal.



Why would we have gotten less with Lucic on the team? We'd have another good player, and be able to field two pretty incredible lines and a third that wasn't too shabby either.

I'm not sure how that would have had any negative impact on Hall's trade value.

Also this whole idea that we got Larsson AND Lucic (and Gustavsson?) for Hall is just a garbage line they feed to fans to make them feel better. We got a single asset back for Hall. If you want to try to justify anything else in to that, the only other thing you could say is that we got Larsson plus a little cap space. The Lucic signing wasn't hinged on us trading away Taylor Hall, so he just wasn't part of that trade. It was just something else that the team did at a similar point in time.

That's like saying that we traded Andrew Cogliano for a second round pick and Eric Belanger, and Ben Eager and Darcy Hordichuk and Cam Barker. Which still is probably a loss for Tambo...



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 Re: Which Trade was Worse?! [message #675782 is a reply to message #675777 ]
Thu, 04 August 2016 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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I don't think you can say it's Lucic and Larsson for Hall either, but I don't think you get either without moving Hall.

The trade played a part in the signing of Lucic. I'm personally okay with it because in my own opinion, I think we are a better team with the two acquisitions than Staying status quo. It's disputable, but I'll stick to my guns.

I wasn't comfortable going into next season banking on just having Klefbom at a 100%/McDavid a year older and calling that good enough. Backend needed an upgrade. We got a huge piece. Need more development from Nurse and Davidson and I think having Larsson eat some tough minutes will help their causes. It's a big step forward and I think we will see another shoe drop in September as a few teams are grazing close to the cap or are over already.



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