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 CrusaderPi
Messages: 15424
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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Didn't see that Adam. I imagine it's more relevant.
East of the Rockies and west of the rest.
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 Dr. Oil
Messages: 1270
Registered: June 2003
Location: BC
1 Cup
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I'm glad I missed this game.
The Oilers are so incredibly bad right now, it's hard to attribute it to anything specific... it just points at a very incapable hockey team. Completely outclassed in several games, with no positives to take from those games. Our D needs TWO hard-nosed guys.
Stone's injury, albeit to a fringe player, hurt this team more than one would think. Combined with the absence of Souray, the Stone injury changed the entire complexion of the team back into the gutless midgets of last season. Stone's contributions by themselves may not be impressive, but having a teammate who hits everything in sight generally inspires others to try the same. Smid is the only Oiler who is currently playing with a mean streak, maybe Brule too.
A bunch of nice guys on this team. Think of our vets: Moreau, Pisani, Hemsky, Horcoff... none of them would hurt a fly. Even Strudwick is a nice guy at heart. We need some [anuses] who want to put someone through the boards and then [urinate] on them.
And I can't even express how livid I am that Iginla has damaged our best leader and player to such an extent. What a travesty.
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goalpost
Messages: 331
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton
No Cups
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The Oilers are seriously missing grit on the back end.
Gilbert / Grebs / Chorney defend best by moving the puck and getting it out of our zone.
Gilbert / Grebs / Chorney lack the grit to defend and contain the low cycle and you couple that with their recent inability to move the puck and they self destructing in the defensive zone.
And unfortunately it is a cascade effect, with our soft D set on auto-destruct the forwards have to assist them in the corners which in turn nullifies our own break out / any transition game plus it is getting us absolutely bombed with shots from the point.
We sorely miss Souray and Staios because the grit they provide. As much as I happen to agree with Quinn and would like to see Iginla get what he deserves, certainly more than than Moreau letting him use his face as a punching bag, the fact remains with Peckham not ready and Strudwick and MacIntyre too slow, the Oilers are going to suffer until Staios but more importantly Souray returns because we need grit on the back end and they are the only players currently on our roster who can supply it.
As for Peckham, after having missed training camp with injury was rushed into the NHL and he simply didn't belong. That being said, before writing off Peckham he should be given the opportunity [after being injured and missing training camp] to get conditioned and and acquaints himself with the speed of the game because again his gritty play is what we need on the back end.
Until we see Souray and Staios in the line up or otherwise acquire a defenseman that has the size and strength to defend against the cycle down low the Oilers are going to continue to have difficulty balancing the breakout / transition game with forwards having to help out our softer D in the corners.
[Updated on: Tue, 03 November 2009 10:33]
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NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 2120
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI
2 Cups
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| goalpost wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 10:20 |
the Oilers are going to suffer until Staios but more importantly Souray returns because we need grit on the back end and they are the only players currently on our roster who can supply it.
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I'd argue that Smid has been providing plenty of grit, and with Visnovsky, seems to be one of the few defensemen currently able to get the puck out of our D zone regularly.
Unfortunately those two can't play all game.
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goalpost
Messages: 331
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton
No Cups
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I agree, Visnovsky is one of the better players on the Oilers and is playing accordingly, suffice it to say that he has been well worth what the Oilers are paying him.
Visnovsky is a good example of how a fast puck moving defenceman can use speed and puck movement to play good defense.
Smid when paired with Staios last year amped up his gritty play and has played well with Visnovsky and hopefully will learn to move the puck and offensively pick his spots as well as Visnovsky.
I also agree that you can't have 1 of your three 3 defensive pairings playing well and expect to be competitive -- I referred only to Gilbert / Grebs / Chorney as the soft D without reference to Smid or Visnovsky.
Hopefully with the return of Souray and Staios our defensive pairings will be balanced with a gritter defenceman being paired with a puck mover and get away from the Gilbert / Grebs type pairing which can't handle a forecheck / low cycle.
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MJ
Messages: 2344
Registered: November 1997
Location: Victoria
2 Cups
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| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Here's the boxscore: http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2009020195
No Comrie. Horcoff's 14 minutes is likely the least he's played, when healthy, in a long time.
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NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 2120
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI
2 Cups
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| MJ wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:51 |
No Comrie. Horcoff's 14 minutes is likely the least he's played, when healthy, in a long time.
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To be fair though, that was only over two and a bit periods as he was knocked out of the game early in the third
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g2k
Messages: 8559
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood
6 Cups
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| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Although I might get flamed good for it. I would really like to see what Comrie would do on the 1st line between Hemsky and Penner. I have a feeling he would really step up.
Should I go hide now?
#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam
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oilerinvan
Messages: 1900
Registered: September 2007
Location: Vancouver
1 Cup
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| gretzky2kurri wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 14:48 |
| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Although I might get flamed good for it. I would really like to see what Comrie would do on the 1st line between Hemsky and Penner. I have a feeling he would really step up.
Should I go hide now?
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I don't think too many people would hate this idea. Offensively Comrie is much more gifted than Horcoff. The only problem I would have with it is how horrible Comrie is on defense.
I would like to see Brule get a shot too.
Horcoff and MacIntyre rule.
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g2k
Messages: 8559
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood
6 Cups
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| oilerinvan wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 16:19 |
| gretzky2kurri wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 14:48 |
| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Although I might get flamed good for it. I would really like to see what Comrie would do on the 1st line between Hemsky and Penner. I have a feeling he would really step up.
Should I go hide now?
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I don't think too many people would hate this idea. Offensively Comrie is much more gifted than Horcoff. The only problem I would have with it is how horrible Comrie is on defense.
I would like to see Brule get a shot too.
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That's a good point. As far as Gagner at 1st line center goes, I will say that he isn't that great defensively either........and he's even slower than Comrie. He's RS slow, but nobody wants to hear that. (NOTE - Not saying you are pushing that Gagner is the answer)
Brule is worth a peek for sure. Just lamenting that I feel Comrie is a better option than Gagner there. Just say no to Horcoff. Offensive kryptonite.
#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam
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AY
Messages: 1803
Registered: December 2000
1 Cup
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the Horcoff haters themselves are not the sharpest knives in the drawer but when it comes to smarts for a hockey player (I use that term cautiously...) there's not another Oiler centre who comes close.
Horcoff, for all his limitations, as my good friend Dennis from the proud province of Newfoundland would utter, leads the centre group in smarts, drive and work ethic.
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Skoobz
Messages: 1633
Registered: January 2006
Location: McDavidisneyland
1 Cup
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| AY wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 20:44 |
the Horcoff haters themselves are not the sharpest knives in the drawer but when it comes to smarts for a hockey player (I use that term cautiously...) there's not another Oiler centre who comes close.
Horcoff, for all his limitations, as my good friend Dennis from the proud province of Newfoundland would utter, leads the centre group in smarts, drive and work ethic.
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It's not that. It's that the Horcoff apologists aren't the most realistic tools in the shed. For all his alleged traits such as smarts, drive and work ethic, he trails the entire centre group in execution, vision, and talent. As my good friend Brad from the great state of Texas would say, "Dude aint' been worth the weight of his own droppings since 2006."
"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015
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AY
Messages: 1803
Registered: December 2000
1 Cup
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keep on tellin' the troops?
The offence will come from solid defence.
Core member Horcoff get's that an' executes that... albeit the +/- he has presently does not really back that up. But y'know it's there. Horcoff's able.
Has Cogs proved it? Master Samwise? Brule?
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Dr. Oil
Messages: 1270
Registered: June 2003
Location: BC
1 Cup
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| AY wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 21:04 |
keep on tellin' the troops?
The offence will come from solid defence.
Core member Horcoff get's that an' executes that... albeit the +/- he has presently does not really back that up. But y'know it's there. Horcoff's able.
Has Cogs proved it? Master Samwise? Brule?
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That's all fine and dandy, but this team that perennially scrambles for 8th place can't play based on theory. It needs results. And fast.
This team needs execution (read: production) yesterday. And Horcoff's "smarts," while nice in theory, have not got the job done. We can't screw around with feel-good stories... otherwise we may as well call up Liam "Rudy" Reddox again.
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BTR17
Messages: 453
Registered: December 1997
No Cups
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3 years of futility, and some are still - still! - convinced Horcoff is a superlative player.
It’s reached the point where I get a pretty fair of picture of someone’s knowledge of i) the concept of performance versus contract and ii) this team and NHL landscape, based on how they view Shawn Horcoff.
The only thing left of note is 'well,he's the best we've got.'
In response to that, I think it's time for the team to demand more from their highest paid forward. I think the fans are suitably tired of the 8th place or bust product, year in, year out. I think the trend toward accountability has started, thankfully.
It's clear, though, that no one in the organization can or will yet cop to the egregious error that was signing Shawn Horcoff to a 30+ million dollar contract. Understandable, too - that's a lot of egg to wipe off an organization's face.
"The Oilers are playing like they'd rather die than lose."
Mike Emerick, on-air, after the Game 3 win over Anaheim in the 2006 Western Conference Final.
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AY
Messages: 1803
Registered: December 2000
1 Cup
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stomp your feet and huff 'n' puff all your obsession desires and no, no one in the organization is gonna come out and say core member Horcoff's contract is bloated and surreal.
I will. But I can.
As the thin veil of deceit has been lifted on the contracts of other Oilers and it's cap value... let's call out Gilbert and #37 'cos it's obvious, you can plainly tell the results, the positive results that everyone clamours for?
There's more than one bump in the road, here.
By default, to some degree Horcoff earns his spot in the line-up. Quinn's options are limited. That's the way it is.
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BTR17
Messages: 453
Registered: December 1997
No Cups
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...I'm not asking the organization to take out a page in the Edmonton Journal. Is that really how you read my statement re: the organization admitting its mistakes? Is that what you thought I implied? Has that ever happened in the history of professional sport? Not what I was saying. I know it's late, but try to keep up, okay? ;)
I am speaking of the far more subtle and corrective removal of 10 from what the Oilers call their first line - that is of course, any line 83 is riding shotgun on. That, and removal from PP1. Quinn has teased the idea. He should stick with it.
Now that Horcoff is sporting some shoulder issues, Quinn will have to move some pieces around.
We'll see what tomorrow brings.
Further - bloated and surreal? This is how you deem the contract, now? Quite a change in opinion for you.
"The Oilers are playing like they'd rather die than lose."
Mike Emerick, on-air, after the Game 3 win over Anaheim in the 2006 Western Conference Final.
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AY
Messages: 1803
Registered: December 2000
1 Cup
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will recall my initital reaction to the contract was twofold. Overpayment partly based on prior performance and that Horcoff must be very happy with the new deal.
I kept it simple and to the point. Bloated and surreal just sounds cool. ; )
Oh yeah, I'm no big fan of Horcoff on the PP... that goes way back. PK? Good. Last minute? Good. Key faceoff in offensive or defensive zone? Get 'im out there fast with this lot of centres to choose from.
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Adam
Messages: 17990
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
6 Cups
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| AY wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 01:11 |
will recall my initital reaction to the contract was twofold. Overpayment partly based on prior performance and that Horcoff must be very happy with the new deal.
I kept it simple and to the point. Bloated and surreal just sounds cool. ; )
Oh yeah, I'm no big fan of Horcoff on the PP... that goes way back. PK? Good. Last minute? Good. Key faceoff in offensive or defensive zone? Get 'im out there fast with this lot of centres to choose from.
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Here's the thing though...without Horc on the PP, you're basically starting from your own end every time. Sad but true...he's the only guy you can rely on to win an important draw once in a while. Brule's getting there, but Gagner and Cogliano have basically started the year where they ended up last year: Low 40s and mid 30s respectively from a percentage basis....that's just not good enough.
"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireChiarelli #FireBobbyNicks #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland #FireTippett
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Dr. Oil
Messages: 1270
Registered: June 2003
Location: BC
1 Cup
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| Adam wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 22:37 |
| AY wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 01:11 |
will recall my initital reaction to the contract was twofold. Overpayment partly based on prior performance and that Horcoff must be very happy with the new deal.
I kept it simple and to the point. Bloated and surreal just sounds cool. ; )
Oh yeah, I'm no big fan of Horcoff on the PP... that goes way back. PK? Good. Last minute? Good. Key faceoff in offensive or defensive zone? Get 'im out there fast with this lot of centres to choose from.
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Here's the thing though...without Horc on the PP, you're basically starting from your own end every time. Sad but true...he's the only guy you can rely on to win an important draw once in a while. Brule's getting there, but Gagner and Cogliano have basically started the year where they ended up last year: Low 40s and mid 30s respectively from a percentage basis....that's just not good enough.
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Isn't Penner over 50% in limited draws? Let him take the draw and make a bee line for the front of the net.
Another option is to have the wingers assume the center will lose the draw and just blitz the defense.
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Dr. Oil
Messages: 1270
Registered: June 2003
Location: BC
1 Cup
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| Adam wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 22:37 |
| AY wrote on Wed, 04 November 2009 01:11 |
will recall my initital reaction to the contract was twofold. Overpayment partly based on prior performance and that Horcoff must be very happy with the new deal.
I kept it simple and to the point. Bloated and surreal just sounds cool. ; )
Oh yeah, I'm no big fan of Horcoff on the PP... that goes way back. PK? Good. Last minute? Good. Key faceoff in offensive or defensive zone? Get 'im out there fast with this lot of centres to choose from.
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Here's the thing though...without Horc on the PP, you're basically starting from your own end every time. Sad but true...he's the only guy you can rely on to win an important draw once in a while. Brule's getting there, but Gagner and Cogliano have basically started the year where they ended up last year: Low 40s and mid 30s respectively from a percentage basis....that's just not good enough.
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Isn't Penner over 50% in limited draws? Let him take the draw and make a bee line for the front of the net.
Another option is to have the wingers assume the center will lose the draw and just blitz the defense.
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BTR17
Messages: 453
Registered: December 1997
No Cups
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...over 'results' - that's the point we've reached in this debate.
There's really nothing more to say, is there?
"The Oilers are playing like they'd rather die than lose."
Mike Emerick, on-air, after the Game 3 win over Anaheim in the 2006 Western Conference Final.
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goalpost
Messages: 331
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton
No Cups
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| oilerinvan wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 16:19 |
I don't think too many people would hate this idea. Offensively Comrie is much more gifted than Horcoff. The only problem I would have with it is how horrible Comrie is on defense.
I would like to see Brule get a shot too.
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I agree -- Brule deserves a shot.
In general I'd be fine with letting merit / good play dictate who centres Hemsky and Penner.
Horcoff's defensive play is much better than his offensive play, but Horcoff isn't contributing on the offensive side and coming perilously close to hindering his teammates on offense.
Horcoff / Comrie / Gagner / Brule -- whoever -- let a player's good play not salary size dictate who centres the top line.
Horcoff should be up to the challenge -- wasn't it last year that MacT said that he wasn't a first line centre, with Horcoff responding by actually playing well.
And if he doesn't get going -- at least the play isn't dying on his stick when Hemksy and Penner are on the ice.
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| gretzky2kurri wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 14:48 |
| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Although I might get flamed good for it. I would really like to see what Comrie would do on the 1st line between Hemsky and Penner. I have a feeling he would really step up.
Should I go hide now?
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Since when have you worried about being flamed? 
I agree fully - Comrie's skill would be more than adequate up front. He likes to feed guys and can score a bit too. As much as I do like Horc, I've run out of excuses. The only thing I wonder about Comrie on that line relates to carrying the puck - we know how much Hemmer likes to carry it and Penner seems to be hanging on to it more. Would that work with Comrie - I suppose so seeing as you could say the same for Gags and he seemed to fit.
Could Gagner work with O'Sullivan? Someone needs to set up Patty bigtime.
Oilers Goal Horn
http://skreemr.com/link.jsp?id=6B5D44535654
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g2k
Messages: 8559
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood
6 Cups
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[quote title=MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 18:08]| gretzky2kurri wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 14:48 |
| MyBestGuess wrote on Tue, 03 November 2009 13:49 |
Did Comrie play last night? Seems like we're missing his playmaking ability quite a bit.
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Although I might get flamed good for it. I would really like to see what Comrie would do on the 1st line between Hemsky and Penner. I have a feeling he would really step up.
Should I go hide now?
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Since when have you worried about being flamed?
Dude. You haven't noticed anything since I changed my sig?
New Season - New coach - New avi-tude
Message board nice guy!
Looking for some of that love thing this season. There's an actual person inside this hardened carcass folks. Not being the biggest prick here might be rewarding. I'm pretty excited about it all.
I've ramped it down a bit and look to really ramp it down in the new year. It's harder than it looks. I'm actually a very nice guy. I don't know why I lose my patience here. I just know I want changes.
Oh my god. Look at me rambling on. Off to go buy some flowers for the wife now.
[Updated on: Tue, 03 November 2009 18:44]
#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam
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BTR17
Messages: 453
Registered: December 1997
No Cups
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....made me laugh.
I endorse this post wholeheartedly. It's a solid feature being able to discuss these issues sans the rough, smart-aleck edge.
15 years from now, we'll all be referencing the Horcoff Debate of the 2000s. I look forward to it. Speaking of 15, I'm nearing 13 years in, here. Good stuff. I like seeing the same names year after year on here.
Oobga? You there?
Still waiting on your Dougie Weight storyline....
"The Oilers are playing like they'd rather die than lose."
Mike Emerick, on-air, after the Game 3 win over Anaheim in the 2006 Western Conference Final.
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