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 Re: 2023-24 Speculation Thread [message #825344 is a reply to message #825342 ]
Fri, 25 August 2023 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2224
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 25 August 2023 11:50

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 25 August 2023 11:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 25 August 2023 10:37

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 25 August 2023 10:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 25 August 2023 08:30

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 August 2023 15:10

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 August 2023 11:36

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 August 2023 11:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 23 August 2023 15:06

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 23 August 2023 13:41

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 23 August 2023 12:25


No I can not see what so ever how what I said can be taken negatively unless a person is trying to make something up for the purpose of unnecessarily debating me because they like confrontation. I literally said in the first paragraph that you quoted from me, that by playing him in the bubble year, all it would do is make him a better player than he is right now and he would be more expensive. The better a player does over more seasons, the better numbers he puts up, the more money he makes. That's generally how it works. That's all I said. It's right there. I think on a long term today, it probably starts with a 7 and I didn't see how there was anyway that number goes down especially if he played more in the bubble. It would only make his case even more in my opinion.

In no way what so ever was I saying Bouchard being a better player is a negative or it's a bad idea for the team that Bouchard to be a better player. So you are making it up.

I don't know what you want me to say about Broberg. So for the Oilers to have forsight which apparently they lack in your mind, they should be negotiating Broberg to a long term deal right now, is that what you are trying to say?
You are saying, you'd prefer the Oilers to not play him at all this year, is that what you are getting at?


When the conversation is about the Bouchard contract being difficult to fit into the cap because of mismanagement saying he'd be more expensive and therefore more difficult to fit under a mismanaged cap could be seen as a negative. Like imagine if he thought he was worth 4.5 on a short term team. OR even 5. Goodness that would be difficult to fit under the cap. The problem is the Oilers didn't give themselves time to figure out what Bouchard was worth and had to hedge against him, which tied up cap space. Cap space was already tied up because this exact same thing happening five years earlier with Nurse. This is what made the Oilers cap situation so bad that it they are unable to afford a more expensive short term deal that will be cheaper in the long term.

With Broberg, I'm simply comparing and contrasting where he is in his career based on the Bouchard timeline. Think the Oilers will need to bridge Broberg next year? I do. Now, bridging him might be the right choice (who can say, he's barely played NHL hockey) but it should be understood that they don't have the choice to sign him long term. Why? Constant and cyclical mismanagement. But yes, if the Oilers were smart and they thought of Broberg as a long term Oiler they would be working on signing him long term now.



There's a difference between making something up and coming to a different conclusion.

What I find difficult in this site and why I get into so many confrontations is how many posters in here are so incredibly wishy washy and ever hypocritical,

Several years right before the last Nurse bridge, there was a thread in here talking about the next contract for Nurse and how he could have been bridged or signed long term. The media was floating around ideas that a long term deal for Nurse before his last bridge would cost around 7 mill. Many fans in here, were losing their minds over that idea. These fans, I bet yourself included, thought it would be incredibly stupid to sign up Nurse for long term at the number that was being floated. He was unproved, it was a gross overpay, etc, etc. Now those same fans are the ones complaining that the Oilers were stupid to kick the Nurse contract down the and they should have signed it years ago instead of bridging him.

I seem to remember getting into arguments with those same people about Leon's contract. They overpaid, it was stupid, how could they do that. Now it's the best contract in the league by a mile and has been for just about the whole deal.





Draisaitl was overpaid at the time of his deal. His comprable was Pastrnak and McKinnon who both signed for much less.

Letting Bouchard play earlier would have given the Oilers a known asset earlier in his career and could have allowed them to make different free agent signings. Do we re-up Barrie (although a piece of the Ekholm trade)? Do we trade and sign Kulak? Is Duncan Keith needed as a mentor (does that change Seth Jones deal and in turn the Nurse contract)?

Playing Bouchard earlier has altered the Cap in a significant manner. The Oilers lack of foresight has impacted the current and previous salary cap. Dead cap space played a huge role. Mistakes are great if we learn from them. Repeating them is the enemy.




When teams sign young players coming out of his ELC, they aren't signing him based on what he is worth that day. They are projecting what he will do over the length of his contract with the hope that player will at least be worth what he makes after a couple of seasons preferably his contract is a bargain. For Leon in his first year of the contract, he scored 70 pts. So for that 1 season, one can argue he was "overpaid" but in year 2 of his contract he scored 50g - 105 pts. So in year 2, he was at minimum worth every penny he made and he's continued to be the best contract in the NHL by a mile in my opinion.

So when someone says he was overpaid at the time of the contract, I believe that is an incorrect statement because the contract number wasn't given for season 1, its given for the seasons after.


The team signing a player always should want value in the deal and the player always wants to maximize his term and money. Were the Avalanche and the Bruins just lucky that they got their value contracts at 2M less than Draisaitl? Colorado and Boston did the leg work and we still overpaid.

Not Even Peter Draisaitl could have predicted Leon to go off the way he did. Although it is a value contract now, it was not at the time of the signing and that is what people tend to forget that when looking back at his deal.

Imagine an extra 2M in the coffer right now? The Nurse, Bouchard, McLeod bridge deals and having a full roster today, plus etc etc etc extension was affected by that deal.

Edit addition: The Nurse deal was an overpayment from the get go regardless of the year they were prognasticating for. There is only one player Edmonton should have ever been open to given a blank check on this team, and even when they did he took a pay cut.


I can't figure out what you are arguing with me about. You said teams should always want value in the deal they sign players too. I 100% agree with you. The Oilers got extreme value.

18-19 - Paying Leon 8.5 mill, in 80 games they got 50 goals, 105 pts.
19-20 - In 71 games, they got 43 goals, 110 pts. That season was shortened by covid. That's 50 goals, 127 pts in 82. He won't the hart and scoring title.
20-21 - Shortened season. In 56 games they got 31 goals, 84 pts. That's 45 goals, 123 ots.
21-22 - 80 games, 55 goals, 110 pts.
22-23 - 80 games, 52 goals, 128 pts.

What do you want to bet he scores around 50 goals and over 110 pts this year? Nothing is guaranteed in life but if he plays the whole season, I feel pretty darn confident he will get those numbers.

On top of that, they got 49 playoff games where he scored 31g, 77 pts. Go ahead and pick a player you want to compare him too and for the money Leon makes compared to production, he's the best value in the league by a mile and it started right away. They were getting a 50 goal scorer and over 100s at the beginning of the deal and it's continued the entire time. To compare, to get similar production from a player not McD, it costs the Leafs, 11.634 for Matthews to put up similar numbers.

People love to bring up MacKinnon, go look at his numbers before signing his contract. They suck. Let's also keep in mind which people LOVE to leave out, when the contract was signed. MacKinnon signed his deal July 6, 2016. That was for 6.3 mill per after he put up 21 goals, 52 pts in 71 games. That's 24 g, 60 pts in 82 games without playoffs. The year after that, he put up 16 goals, 53 pts in 82. No playoffs.

Leon signed his deal Aug 16, 2017 after he put up 29 goals, 77 pts plus another 6 goals 16 pts in 13 games in the playoffs. Like it or not, players, teams and agents VALUE playoffs a lot. So not only did Leon outscore Mackinnon in his last year of his ELC but quite a bit, Leon also had a very good playoff which bumps up his value.

So to say Leon was worth what MacKinnon got in my opinion is completely false because Leon scored more goals and points in the regular season plus did well in the playoffs. Players use other players contracts as a guide and then compare themselves. So when comparing Leon to Nat, Leon scored more and should have been paid more based on regular season results. Then you add in some playoff success. On top of that, you have to add in the contracts were signed in different years. Every year, salaries go up. The league min goes up, the highest a player can physically make goes up. So you also have to take that into account that just from year to year, the salary of a higher end player would go up. I would bet money that if MacKinnon was due in 17-18, even if he put up the same numbers, he would have gotten more than 6.3 mill.

So I just don't get your stance. Leon's contract has been an extreme value deal for the whole thing. Even if you want to compare him to McD. McD makes 12.5 mill, 4 mill more. I think McD is worth every penny but if you look at his numbers compared to Leons, is McD giving the Oilers 4 mill more scoring wise? No he's not.


Draisaitl is a massive value contract now and early into his signing. I am saying the Oilers took more risk than needed by giving too much too soon. Six years since the signing, and even in today's market a 8.5M cap hit is on the high end signing for a 2nd year deal.

Leon was also never projected to be a 50 goal scorer. Not when he was drafted. Not when he left the WHL. Not when he entered the league, and not when he signed that deal.

The Oilers got lucky with the deal. I love he guy and I agree it is a massive underpayment now, but a 6.5 to 7M deal would have been in the right target area for contract #2.

As for McDavid. He was projected to be superstar from the age 12. Nothing happened in his career path happened to suggest otherwise and regardless of what he signs for throughout his career it will be a value deal.

Kr55, I agree that Pasta and Nate were in different situations, but was the extra two years for Draisaitl really worth 28M at the time? 23.9M more than McKinnon. There were millions of dollars to be squeezed on that deal with comps signed one year earlier.


I guess we will just never agree on this. I just can't get my head around how anyone thinks his contract was ever an overpay.

MacKinnon signed for 6.3 mill and score barely over 50 pts. I believe when you are signing a young player early on, their salary has to go up by 10%. I don't know the exact wording but I believe that is correct.

So 10% raise on MacKinnon just because you have too basically puts you at 6.9. Then you have to factor in guys generally get more than the other guy just because. Look at Bouchards deal. Byram signs for 3.85, Miller signs for 22K more, then Bouchard signs for 28K more than Miller. WHY? All the numbers for all 3 have them at the same age, very similar experience levels, same points, if anything Bouchard gets a bump from being on the Oilers record setting PP and the other 2 played significantly more mins that Bouchard. So in my opinion, Bouchard probably should have been paid less than Byram slightly but he didn't just because he was the last one to sign. Now I get that he will score more points this year but a ton of that will because he's on the Oilers PP. But regardless, he got more just because that's what happens.

So back to Leon. He signed a year later than MacKinnon, so he will get more just because that is how the system works. Its not an Oilers thing, it's what happens. So now we are at 7 because of the year later. Then you have to factor in he scored more goals and almost 20 more pts than Mackinnon. So that make it so he can command more. You get paid for points and goals and he got more goals and points. So now you are pushing 8 then you have to factor in playoff success which like it or not, impacts a players pay. Adin Hill got more than double his salary because he got hot in the playoffs for 6 weeks. There is absolutely no chance in hell he is making 4.9 mill this year without that run. You know I am right. So playoff success factors into what a guy gets paid. Leon had a great playoff right before his new contract.

If you want to say Leon's contract at the time should have been a couple 100K less, sure. I won't lose sleep tonight over that. But 2 mill less, no chance in hell. That is completely unrealistic to think that in my opinion.


I am okay to agree to disagree. I am glad to have Neon Leon on the team and I can only wish we get lucky every time we sign a multi-year 2nd contract.


Is that not what signing young players too longer deals are all about? For the most part, you give them a little more than maybe they are worth at that the start in the hopes that after a couple of years, they have progressed to the point they are on a value deal?

I assume then given your stance, pretending the Oilers had extra cap space, if the Oilers signed Bouchard to a 8 yr deal worth 7 per season. You would call it an overpay right now and complain about it but in a year or 2 when he puts up 70 pts, you call it a steal?


Nope. 7M per season X 8 for a RHD that put up comparable numbers to Makar at the same NHL experience would be a value deal. Giving him 9.9M (10% more than Makar) would be a gross overpay and Zack Werensky'ish.

7M would be substantially less than what Sergachev signed last year at 25 years old (8.5M).

I also thought we agreed to disagree?



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