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Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem [message #823901 is a reply to message #823897 ]	Tue, 23 May 2023 19:42

inverno76
Messages: 2183
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 23 May 2023 15:36

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:38

Adam wrote on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:05

I agree that Skinner wasn't good in the playoffs. In my opinion, I think part of it was he played too much. He played 12 games in a row. He's never done that before. I keep hearing goalie guys saying they think teams need to stop deciding on 1 guy in the playoffs when they don't do it in the regular season. The league is going towards a tandem. So if during the year you are used to only getting 2-3 starts in a row max, expecting a goalie to go 12 in a row isn't realistic. Secondly, he is a rookie. The playoffs are another animal. It can be a tall ask for a rookie position player in the playoffs, asking a rookie goalie is a lot. I expect him to use the fact he wasn't that good as fuel and he will be better.

That being said, if there is a better goalie out there that is cheaper than Skinner, then sure trade him. I am not a goalie expert. The position seems to be the hardest one to judge. Who say goalie BOB going off after 4 pretty mediocre to bad years? But it's happening right now. So if you have a list of better goalies that make less than Skinner, list away please.

Well, I was firmly of the opinion we should play the two guys almost 50/50 down the stretch ( http://oilfans.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=48675&pr evloaded=1&rid=1325&SQ=07472d6bd827134772988c3e77962 3fe&start=30. It definitely COULD be part of the problem. Ideally, the Oilers would have the most insight on that, and understand what went wrong - was it mental and physical fatigue? Is that an issue to be managed or that CAN be managed in the future? Is there something that Vegas (and to an extent Los Angeles) figured out about Skinner's play that could be improved upon easily?

Skookum's idea of an all-encompassing pursuit of excellence in operations would include things like this. Sadly, I don't think exists in the firm, and I suspect we're at a complete loss as to what happened. I think kr55 is likely correct as well, and our scouting of goaltending is suspect at best. We don't even know who the good ones to pursue are.

Are their good options available? Certainly. As pointed out, Adin Hill was #4 or 5 on the depth chart in Vegas. Filip Gustavsson probably got some votes for the Vezina - he was dealt last year for Cam Talbot straight up. Georgiev was traded for two thirds and a fifth last summer. Francouz was a cheap trade pick-up a couple years ago. Freddie Andersen was a low-attention free agent signing. Korpisalo played decent for the Kings in the playoffs against us.

There's a lot of options every year (plus, you know, some teams actually adequately fill the pipeline with real goalie prospects too). And so if you have a portion of your scouting resources dedicated to looking at goalies at both the amateur and pro level, then maybe you aren't left feeling at the end of each year that goalies are voodoo and you just cross your fingers and hope for the best.

So you know for certain that all the guys you listed are all going to be better than Skinner next year and for years to come and they will come in cheaper than Skinner? Because it makes zero sense to trade Skinner if they are going to give you less goaltending for more money.

I know we basically don't agree on anything but I assume at least we can agree if you are trading Skinner you are bringing in a guy who is consistently better than him and doesn't grossly cost you more.

If it were me running the team, I would want to have staff dedicated to figuring out what goalies could give me the most consistent results. Everyone is going to have a bad game now and then, but I'd be very concerned about a month-long meltdown from my supposed goalie of the future. With goalies, their stats aren't easily separated from their team's numbers so I think you need a scouting department that looks beyond the superficial numbers. You'll want to understand - are someone's numbers under-valued due to playing behind a bad team and facing too many high quality chances? Is someone's numbers boosted because they play on a good team that suppresses second and third chances? For that matter, is it Skinner to blame for the playoffs? Or did subtle changes from opposition exploit weaknesses in the system which they exploited to great effect? I think there was some of that for sure, although I felt that Skinner was clearly not good enough either. I suppose at least he didn't let in any shots from the far zone.

The goalies I mentioned in the previous post are all probably not available now, having already landed on their teams. They're just an example to show that the thought that goalies are hard to find and expensive to acquire is not always so. There's lots out there and teams have limited spots, so you just need to figure out who's under-valued for what they
can bring. We have to find the next guy - and that takes a little more work. The fact is, if we have two back-up goalies, we probably can't win a Cup with that. Are you willing to risk the last for sure year of McDavid & Draisaitl on "Skinner probably gets better" or "Campbell can't be worse, right?"

I wouldn't - and if I can get an all-star (a real all-star, not one elected by the fans), then I don't care if he's more expensive. I can cut other places to make it work.

In other controversial moves, I might look at selling high on Evander Kane too. I think he's a poor passer, lacks discipline at key moments, and can be pretty ambivalent in his own zone, and I think he has done a good job keeping his nose clean while building a bit of a reputation as a pugnacious top-line guy. If someone was willing to offer me something decent, I'd definitely be open to it. I caveat that by saying we need a top-six winger already, so trading him makes that need up to two - but maybe if the price was right I'd deal him in a second while his value is likely near its peak.

I can get behind moving Kane. I love what he brings to the team, but he wasn’t the best passer with two healthy wrists. His passing is no longer just subpar. It’s play killing bad.

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2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:57
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 19 May 2023 12:33
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:16
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:26
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:36
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 19 May 2023 14:02
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: K.McC#24 on Sun, 21 May 2023 13:56
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Ragnarok73 on Fri, 19 May 2023 12:52
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:22
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Skookum Jim on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:41
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:14
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Skookum Jim on Sat, 20 May 2023 01:49
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: nullterm on Sat, 20 May 2023 13:28
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Sun, 21 May 2023 16:13
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Sun, 21 May 2023 11:10
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 21 May 2023 21:44
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Sun, 21 May 2023 17:11
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Sun, 21 May 2023 21:14
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Rowan Oil Fielding on Mon, 22 May 2023 16:32
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Mon, 22 May 2023 22:11
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Mon, 22 May 2023 23:40
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Mike on Tue, 23 May 2023 06:30
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 08:35
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Tue, 23 May 2023 09:48
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:39
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:01
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:09
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:03
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 23 May 2023 19:02
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 09:52
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:23
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:55
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:06
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:21
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:23
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:32
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:09
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:30
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:26
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 23 May 2023 13:17
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: tardigrade81 on Wed, 31 May 2023 12:06
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 31 May 2023 12:56
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:55
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:05
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:23
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:38
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 15:36
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 23 May 2023 19:42
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: smyth260 on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:06
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 10:32
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Jay on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:42
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 11:58
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:18
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:31
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Tue, 23 May 2023 12:31
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 23 May 2023 16:00
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 23 May 2023 19:53
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Wed, 24 May 2023 00:17
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 08:21
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Wed, 24 May 2023 09:48
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 10:16
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Wed, 24 May 2023 10:21
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 10:25
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Wed, 24 May 2023 10:34
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 10:44
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Wed, 24 May 2023 11:08
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 11:26
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 11:47
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 12:42
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 12:58
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 13:50
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 14:55
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Wed, 24 May 2023 15:17
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 15:23
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Wed, 24 May 2023 15:01
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 15:44
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 15:52
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Wed, 24 May 2023 16:05
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 16:19
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 16:21
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 24 May 2023 16:58
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 24 May 2023 22:15
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Ragnarok73 on Wed, 24 May 2023 22:39
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Adam on Wed, 24 May 2023 22:55
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Jay on Wed, 24 May 2023 16:43
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 25 May 2023 09:39
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Wed, 24 May 2023 17:14
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 25 May 2023 10:35
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Rutuu on Thu, 25 May 2023 15:08
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 25 May 2023 15:42
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Rutuu on Thu, 25 May 2023 18:07
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 23 May 2023 19:10
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Rowan Oil Fielding on Wed, 24 May 2023 09:45
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Wed, 24 May 2023 17:36
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Rutuu on Wed, 24 May 2023 18:15
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 25 May 2023 09:42
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Xombie on Thu, 25 May 2023 23:06
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 26 May 2023 08:25
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Kr55 on Fri, 26 May 2023 08:28
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 26 May 2023 08:46
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Fri, 26 May 2023 09:54
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 26 May 2023 10:54
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Goose on Fri, 26 May 2023 10:24
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 26 May 2023 11:05
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Goose on Fri, 26 May 2023 11:15
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 26 May 2023 12:21
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Mike on Fri, 26 May 2023 13:36
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Fri, 26 May 2023 14:35
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 30 May 2023 14:13
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Tue, 30 May 2023 14:37
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 30 May 2023 14:46
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Dragon_Matt on Tue, 30 May 2023 14:49
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: inverno76 on Tue, 30 May 2023 16:18
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 30 May 2023 15:57
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 30 May 2023 15:04
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 30 May 2023 16:01
Re: 2022-23 Post Mortem	By: Xombie on Fri, 26 May 2023 15:34

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