 RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
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| inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:28 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22 |
| Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51 |
| inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20 |
| inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57 |
| inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16 |
| Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50 |
| smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44 |
It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.
I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.
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It's the Oilers way.
Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?
This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.
https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/
Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.
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They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.
Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.
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These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?
Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.
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Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.
So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.
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And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.
If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.
I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.
It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.
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So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.
So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.
JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.
So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?
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First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.
If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.
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Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.
So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?
If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?
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I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.
I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.
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I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player
If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.
In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.
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So what is JP worth? I see a bridge deal in the 2.25M to 2.75M and an extension running at 2.75-4.5M depending on term, with 3 years being the minimum and 8 being the max. I could be far off, but it falls in line with his comparable players.
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I would be perfectly happy with those ranges. Doesn't seem like the player feels the way you do otherwise, I think the team would already have a deal done but we shall see what happens.
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