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Speculation » Puljujarvi's Extension

Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809797 is a reply to message #809786 ]	Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

inverno76
Messages: 2122
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.

It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.

These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.

Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.

And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

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Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Fri, 10 June 2022 14:20
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 10 June 2022 16:27
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Fri, 24 June 2022 22:52
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Fri, 10 June 2022 17:06
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Sat, 11 June 2022 17:43
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Sat, 11 June 2022 18:57
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Sat, 11 June 2022 22:16
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 13 June 2022 08:59
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Mon, 13 June 2022 09:06
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Mon, 13 June 2022 11:11
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Fri, 17 June 2022 15:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Sun, 19 June 2022 08:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 20 June 2022 09:17
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Mon, 20 June 2022 11:24
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 24 June 2022 08:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Fri, 24 June 2022 10:08
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 24 June 2022 10:22
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Fri, 24 June 2022 10:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 24 June 2022 11:48
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Fri, 24 June 2022 12:23
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Fri, 24 June 2022 12:42
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 24 June 2022 14:29
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Fri, 24 June 2022 15:21
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 24 June 2022 14:24
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Fri, 24 June 2022 14:54
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Sat, 25 June 2022 13:26
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Sat, 25 June 2022 14:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Sat, 25 June 2022 15:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Sat, 25 June 2022 19:14
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Sun, 26 June 2022 13:24
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Thu, 30 June 2022 15:11
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 30 June 2022 15:40
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Thu, 30 June 2022 15:48
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 30 June 2022 16:09
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Thu, 30 June 2022 18:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: NetBOG on Thu, 30 June 2022 18:23
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Thu, 30 June 2022 18:27
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Fri, 01 July 2022 17:29
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Fri, 01 July 2022 17:56
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Thu, 30 June 2022 19:09
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Thu, 30 June 2022 19:30
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Mike on Thu, 30 June 2022 20:13
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Thu, 30 June 2022 22:35
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Thu, 30 June 2022 23:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Fri, 01 July 2022 10:02
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Thu, 30 June 2022 19:54
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Fri, 01 July 2022 12:06
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 01 July 2022 14:41
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Fri, 01 July 2022 15:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 01 July 2022 19:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Fri, 01 July 2022 16:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Fri, 01 July 2022 20:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Fri, 01 July 2022 21:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Fri, 01 July 2022 21:56
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Fri, 01 July 2022 22:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Sat, 02 July 2022 10:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Mon, 04 July 2022 19:47
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Mon, 04 July 2022 20:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Mon, 04 July 2022 20:22
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Tue, 05 July 2022 01:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:37
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:43
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:48
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:52
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:56
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:58
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:00
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:10
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: smyth260 on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:01
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:11
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:14
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:53
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:00
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:56
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:07
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:11
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:21
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:29
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:59
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Tue, 05 July 2022 13:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:28
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:17
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:28
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:42
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:00
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:52
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:59
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Tue, 05 July 2022 21:31
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:03
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skoobz on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:13
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skookum Jim on Tue, 05 July 2022 19:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 22:55
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 05 July 2022 17:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Tue, 05 July 2022 18:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrudeRemarks on Tue, 05 July 2022 19:17
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Tue, 05 July 2022 19:48
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 06 July 2022 08:20
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:29
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:42
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:54
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:57
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:43
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Wed, 06 July 2022 12:30
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 06 July 2022 12:52
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Tue, 05 July 2022 19:21
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:04
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:33
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:46
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: smyth260 on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:25
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:40
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:46
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:47
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:53
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:27
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:37
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Tue, 12 July 2022 19:41
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Tue, 12 July 2022 20:27
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 17 July 2022 10:53
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 17 July 2022 16:36
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:32
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 18 July 2022 09:13
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Mon, 18 July 2022 09:41
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 18 July 2022 09:49
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Mon, 18 July 2022 10:04
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Mon, 18 July 2022 16:21
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: GabbyDugan on Mon, 19 September 2022 12:16
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Mon, 18 July 2022 12:20
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 18 July 2022 12:47
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Sat, 24 September 2022 19:42
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Sat, 24 September 2022 21:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Sun, 25 September 2022 00:38
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: PlusOne on Sun, 25 September 2022 18:16
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Mon, 26 September 2022 09:29
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Goose on Mon, 26 September 2022 11:10
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Mike on Mon, 26 September 2022 12:25
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Mon, 26 September 2022 13:22
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Tue, 22 November 2022 23:57
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 23 November 2022 08:31
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: smyth260 on Mon, 16 January 2023 15:58
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 17 January 2023 14:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Tue, 17 January 2023 14:38
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Babaganoosh2.0 on Tue, 17 January 2023 16:36
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 17 January 2023 17:03
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Wed, 18 January 2023 07:44
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Wed, 18 January 2023 08:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 18 January 2023 10:58
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Wed, 18 January 2023 14:14
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 18 January 2023 14:33
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Wed, 18 January 2023 23:02
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Wed, 18 January 2023 23:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 19 January 2023 08:27
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 19 January 2023 09:40
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 09:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 19 January 2023 09:54
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 10:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 19 January 2023 10:20
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 19 January 2023 10:35
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 10:42
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Thu, 19 January 2023 12:15
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 19 January 2023 12:46
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 12:50
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 19 January 2023 12:59
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 19 January 2023 13:25
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Thu, 19 January 2023 13:45
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 19 January 2023 14:41
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 15:12
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 19 January 2023 15:28
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: NCREDiBLE on Thu, 19 January 2023 17:48
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Thu, 19 January 2023 21:01
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 19 January 2023 21:19
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Thu, 19 January 2023 21:41
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 19 January 2023 22:46
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: inverno76 on Thu, 19 January 2023 22:51
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: NCREDiBLE on Mon, 23 January 2023 00:02
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Thu, 09 February 2023 18:03
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 09 February 2023 18:40
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: K.McC#24 on Thu, 09 February 2023 19:13
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Thu, 09 February 2023 20:07
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 10 February 2023 11:31
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Dragon_Matt on Fri, 10 February 2023 13:49
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: CrusaderPi on Fri, 10 February 2023 14:06
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Fri, 10 February 2023 14:26
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Kr55 on Fri, 17 February 2023 11:25
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Adam on Fri, 17 February 2023 16:34
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Fri, 17 February 2023 18:05
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skookum Jim on Sat, 18 February 2023 18:49
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: NetBOG on Sat, 18 February 2023 19:02
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Sun, 19 February 2023 01:40
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 19 February 2023 17:24
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: nullterm on Sun, 19 February 2023 23:44
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: Oscargasm on Sun, 19 February 2023 08:47
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Wed, 22 February 2023 08:44
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: AndersonRules on Thu, 23 February 2023 12:07
Re: Puljujarvi's Extension	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 23 February 2023 13:57

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