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Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23) [message #795536 is a reply to message #795533 ]	Mon, 06 December 2021 12:43

Adam
Messages: 6845
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 December 2021 11:03

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:20

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:02

The problem with the continuous bad starts is in my opinion, it has to come from the top guys. Those guys need to set the tempo. If they come out guns a blazing, it will trickle down to rest. Bad starts have been a problem for a very, very long time with multiple coaches. It's a mindset that the big boys need to change. As an example, Nuge is in his 11th year as an Oiler and bad starts have been a thing since he started. I am not pinning it on him what so ever but just using him as an example of the top guys needing a mindset change.

While I know you love using Nugent-Hopkins as a whipping boy, I don't think that it's fair to say there's been 11 years of bad starts. That's not something I think you could objectively point to. There's been times where they've started well, and times where they have not.

It's a tough thing to fully define - if you looked just at who scored first, you have to remember that if it was even distribution than you'd expect that to be about 50% - and even then, that's a bad definition: you can start well and still be scored on first.

I think it makes more sense to look at the recent sample and try and diagnose that, rather than to make a sweeping generalization. They've got outshot starting the game badly in several games lately, so why is that. Is there a feeling in process? Are they worried about goaltending, so cheating for defence rather than attacking? Is there something wrong with the system they have been coached to play?

It is a team game, so I think bad starts are on everyone, and since it's so often (including last night) the depth guys getting scored on, I don't think you can simply point at the top players and say it's their responsibility to be better. Remember - two of those guys are leading the league in points and your favourite Nugent-Hopkins is on a point-per-game pace still.

If I was going to diagnose it - I think a big part of the problem is that the 5-on-5 system is weak - to the point where McDavid is only +9 and Nuge only +4 despite both being pretty good players this year. It's noticeable at the start of the game because there haven't been any special teams usually at that point, but I think it's actually more persistent than we notice - just that we have a couple players who tilt the ice, and when we get a powerplay, we get a ton of chances, shots and usually goals.

In short, I don't blame the top players for this.

I literally said I am not pinning the bad starts on him. FIRST paragraph! Then you follow it up with "I know you like to use Nuge as a whipping boy." You want to know why I get bent out of shape from time to time with your responses, there is exhibit A. I freaking qualify what I am saying with a statement and then you stuff words in my mouth saying I am doing the opposite.

The entire point was I don't think it's coaching which I also said in my statement. I used Nuge as an example only because he's been here for 11 yrs and is the longest standing Oiler. In his 11 yrs there have been many coaches yet the Oilers tend to have poor starts year after year. So I don't think this is a problem that a coach can just coach out of the players. They as a team have to want to come out guns a blazing. I also think it's on the top guys because they play the most. Lots of times one of the top lines starts the game. So asking the 4th line to get the team off to a good start when by the time they get in their first shift the game is probably 4+ mins old, I do not think is realistic.

I don't think it's an out of left field comment to say that you have some whipping boys amongst the team. You can say the same with me and Ken Holland or Bob Nicholson if you wish.

You said in your post:

Quote:

The problem with the continuous bad starts is in my opinion, it has to come from the top guys ... As an example, Nuge is in his 11th year as an Oiler and bad starts have been a thing since he started. I am not pinning it on him what so ever but just using him as an example of the top guys needing a mindset change.

So you're kind of blaming the top guys. I don't think this is about the first shift of the game - it's more about the first 10 minutes. Last night I think the shots were 10-1 for the Kings and the Oilers never covered that gap. We trailed by a similar margin the rest of the game.

I also think that fans tend to remember specific bad starts, but that there's no nuance to memory. There's no consistent 11 year theme here. There just isn't.

You can however look at this year and see that we tend to get out-shot in the first period, often badly, and that we're often getting behind before we seem to show up (we've trailed first in 14 games, scored first in 9). I think there's more trends here that you can look at, and honestly, I don't think the big guys are the biggest reason. If anything, they're the ones getting most of our chances, and even drawing most of the powerplays, despite the league's preference for refs to look the other way when our guys get mugged. As we've seen, often games turn on our powerplays. Digging a hole does make a difference though - we're 7-7 in the 14 games when the other team scores the first goal, and 9-0 when we score first.

I also reject the idea that this is simply about bad starts. I think it's more about poor 5v5 play. The Oilers are the 3rd worst team in the league for shots against. They are horrible when the top three players aren't on the ice by every metric. They changed up a lot of personnel, so either they did a terrible job identifying the right players to add to the team, or, more likely, the coaching is poor at 5v5. I mean, consider that 97 on the ice without 29 has an 12-10 goal share this year. That's ridiculous. If your system doesn't have McDavid outscoring the opposition when given decent but not elite wingers??? Then the system is broken.

#FireTippett.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 December 2021 13:07]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: OilFans on Sun, 05 December 2021 20:30
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Mike on Sun, 05 December 2021 20:37
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Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Oscargasm on Sun, 05 December 2021 21:03
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Sun, 05 December 2021 21:19
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 05 December 2021 21:45
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Sun, 05 December 2021 23:26
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Sun, 05 December 2021 23:35
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Mon, 06 December 2021 13:22
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Kr55 on Mon, 06 December 2021 13:29
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Mike on Mon, 06 December 2021 13:32
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Kr55 on Mon, 06 December 2021 13:40
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Mike on Mon, 06 December 2021 09:09
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Mon, 06 December 2021 09:41
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Kr55 on Mon, 06 December 2021 12:53
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Kr55 on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:48
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 05 December 2021 21:10
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Skookum Jim on Sun, 05 December 2021 21:15
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: stemhovlichski on Mon, 06 December 2021 00:32
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Skookum Jim on Mon, 06 December 2021 00:35
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: NZ Oiler Fan on Mon, 06 December 2021 04:24
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 06 December 2021 08:22
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:02
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:20
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 06 December 2021 11:03
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Mon, 06 December 2021 12:43
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: NCREDiBLE on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:00
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: Adam on Mon, 06 December 2021 10:07
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: RDOilerfan on Mon, 06 December 2021 11:30
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: NCREDiBLE on Mon, 06 December 2021 16:39
Re: Review: Los Angeles @ Edmonton (Game #23)	By: K.McC#24 on Mon, 06 December 2021 18:07

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