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 Hall vs Nuge [message #787855]
Wed, 16 June 2021 17:56 Go to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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The door hasn't seemed to close on Taylor Hall coming back to Edmonton.

For me, Taylor Hall is the hardest player in the whole league which to assign a value to. I struggle to rank him whenever I make my yearly fantasy hockey draft spreadsheet. I struggle to come up with a dollar I'd be happy with. His ceiling is high, as he won the Hart trophy in 2018 and puts up ppg seasons every now and then. But he also has lots of underwhelming seasons, and lots of games lost due to injury.

Maybe an easier exercise is to examine which player we'd rather have. Nuge or Hall?
I don't really believe it has to be a decision of Nuge OR Hall with creative cap management, but I think that's the best we will get. So let's compare the two.

Nugent-Hopkins Career:
656GP 185G 293A 478P ---> 0.73PPG

Hall Career:
680GP 228G 368A 596P ---> 0.88PPG

Nugent-Hopkins last 5 seasons
343GP 108G 148A 256P ---> 0.75PPG

Hall last 5 seasons
299GP 96G 172A 268P ---> 0.90PPG

Nugent-Hopkins last 3 seasons
199GP 66G 99A 165P ---> 0.83PPG

Hall last 3 seasons
151GP 37G 85A 122P ---> 0.81PPG




So Hall clearly has the career advantage, and then his Hart trophy season gives him a big edge over the last 5 years as well as far as PPG goes. We want to make the best prediction for future performance. So let's remove each of their best PPG year from the last 5 years and see what happens.

Nugent-Hopkins last 5 years, best season removed
278GP 86G 109A 195P --> 0.70PPG

Hall last 5 years, best season removed
223GP 57G 118A 175P --> 0.78PPG




So after removing their *outlier* seasons, surprisingly there is still a decent PPG edge for Hall. But the spread between the two was cut in half.

Nugent-Hopkins however, has outproduced Taylor Hall in both totals and PPG over the last 3 years. It has been an underwhelming stretch for Hall. The last 3 years puts him at 59th in PPG over that time (min 100GP), with Nuge at 52nd.

What makes valuating Taylor Hall so difficult is his larger swings in production and combined with his consistent injury history. Nugent-Hopkins has played significantly more hockey than Hall over the last 3 and 5 years. He generally gets more points in a season than Hall in recent years, even if Hall might score at a better rate.

Some disadvantages Hall has had over the last 3 years however are that he's played for 4 teams. Three of those are New Jersey, Arizona, and Buffalo. Jack Eichel got injured early in their time together. Hall simply has not gotten to play with great players until Boston, where he had better results. Nugent-Hopkins on the other hand has benefited from playing with Draisaitl, McDavid, and the top powerplay in the league over the last 2 seasons.

Another argument for Nugent-Hopkins is that he is 1 year and 5 months younger than Hall. That certainly matters for the longer term contracts we are looking at with these guys as they go into their mid 30s.

So in summary:

Taylor Hall
------------
- Higher ceiling
- Better production than Nuge until the last 3 years
- Has not had team stability or played with great players in recent years
- Older
- Gets injured a lot more

Nugent-Hopkins
------------------
- Lower ceiling
- Outproduced by Hall, until the last 3 years
- 1 year and 5 months younger
- Has stayed pretty healthy over the last 5 years (only 30GP missed)
- Benefited from playing with McDavid/Draisaitl and #1 powerplay

It's really close for me. It's pretty tempting to picture Hall and Draisaitl together again, it's not a bad bet that his production would surge. But the age and durability is a factor.

Let's have a poll in the below post.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787856 is a reply to message #787855 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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Who would you rather sign?[ 25 vote(s) ]
1.Taylor Hall 17 / 68%
2.Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 8 / 32%

The only way I could figure out getting a poll to the bottom.


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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787857 is a reply to message #787856 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Hall if we can find a 3rd center. He would be a great add to our top six.

I suspect Nuge will be impossible for us to re-sign as our 3rd as someone else will throw him way more money to be their 1st/2nd center. Looking at you, Kraken.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787864 is a reply to message #787856 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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smyth260 wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 17:58

The only way I could figure out getting a poll to the bottom.


Hall without a doubt. We need a solid winger. I'm sitting here waiting for us to try to let Nuge develop as one but with no final idea what he can do there, and most recently we saw him trying to play catch up with McDavid with minimal results.

I'd bet money on Drai/Hall being dynamite together again. They complimented each other extremely well. That's all I want to see :)

Don't think I'd give Hall more than 6.5M-7M with a 4-5 year term though. With his play style, injuries and age, there is going to be a significant decline coming.


Anyone see John Shannon crapping on Hall? He ranked who he would want between Nuge, Hall and Hyman. Hyman #1, Nuge #2, Hall a distant 3rd. So I guess we're getting stone hands Hyman :)



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787919 is a reply to message #787856 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Neither?

I would pass on Hall. I think there's something wrong with him physically now. Whatever he had that made him the first overall has been missing for a couple years. He looks a half step slower when I watch him now. He's also getting a little too old for anything above a 3 year contract (I understand how unlikely it is to sign Hall for only 3 years).

If I had to choose, I'd choose Nuge. If I thought I could replace Nuge, I would.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787922 is a reply to message #787919 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:51

Neither?

I would pass on Hall. I think there's something wrong with him physically now. Whatever he had that made him the first overall has been missing for a couple years. He looks a half step slower when I watch him now. He's also getting a little too old for anything above a 3 year contract (I understand how unlikely it is to sign Hall for only 3 years).

If I had to choose, I'd choose Nuge. If I thought I could replace Nuge, I would.


I'd go the other way - sign Nuge and Hall. We need more good players in our top six, and even if he's no longer at his peak, I think Hall can add significantly to the team.

Even if he doesn't do enough charity work for some fans liking!



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787928 is a reply to message #787922 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 13:19

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:51

Neither?

I would pass on Hall. I think there's something wrong with him physically now. Whatever he had that made him the first overall has been missing for a couple years. He looks a half step slower when I watch him now. He's also getting a little too old for anything above a 3 year contract (I understand how unlikely it is to sign Hall for only 3 years).

If I had to choose, I'd choose Nuge. If I thought I could replace Nuge, I would.


I'd go the other way - sign Nuge and Hall. We need more good players in our top six, and even if he's no longer at his peak, I think Hall can add significantly to the team.

Even if he doesn't do enough charity work for some fans liking!

As long as the Oilers aren't paying peak price for non-peak performance I have no problem with signing either... unfortunately I don't see that as plausible.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787933 is a reply to message #787922 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 13:19

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:51

Neither?

I would pass on Hall. I think there's something wrong with him physically now. Whatever he had that made him the first overall has been missing for a couple years. He looks a half step slower when I watch him now. He's also getting a little too old for anything above a 3 year contract (I understand how unlikely it is to sign Hall for only 3 years).

If I had to choose, I'd choose Nuge. If I thought I could replace Nuge, I would.


I'd go the other way - sign Nuge and Hall. We need more good players in our top six, and even if he's no longer at his peak, I think Hall can add significantly to the team.

Even if he doesn't do enough charity work for some fans liking!


Assuming they both want to this is my opinion as well. the LW spot is a wasteland and having both of them on the team gives a huge boost there while still have the flexibility of RNH moving to C in case of injury.

Next time Eberle has a charity event in Regina I will post a picture of Hall, Nuge or any other Oiler that shows up to make sure some they are perceived as nice enough to be good teammates.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787861 is a reply to message #787855 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Hall. No if’s ands, buts or butts from me on that.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787867 is a reply to message #787861 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 20:55

Hall. No if’s ands, buts or butts from me on that.


Even knowing that he'd give the team Covid?


j/k. I didn't vote because it isn't an either/or. re-sign Nuge and sign Hall.

Landeskog will sign in Colorado

Ovechkin isn't leaving Washington.

Hyman is going to get overpaid.


Hall is the #1 available, truly available, UFA. In a year when you have all your hopes pinned on using mountains of cap space to build a contender, you have to land the big fish.



You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787868 is a reply to message #787867 ]
Wed, 16 June 2021 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 21:10



j/k. I didn't vote because it isn't an either/or. re-sign Nuge and sign Hall.



That would be ideal. Is Ken “Dollar in Dollar Out” Holland creative enough to make that work though?



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787871 is a reply to message #787868 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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smyth260 wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 21:53

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 21:10



j/k. I didn't vote because it isn't an either/or. re-sign Nuge and sign Hall.



That would be ideal. Is Ken “Dollar in Dollar Out” Holland creative enough to make that work though?


If there's at all a race to sign Hall, I don't see Holland pushing as hard as another GM.

Like the Markstrom stakes last offseason. Holland isn't going big game hunting, which means don't expect any big names in, but also don't expect throwing any big overpays at anyone either.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787881 is a reply to message #787871 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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For me, it isn't so cut and dry. If you are just looing at left winger vs left winger, then Hall is slightly better but who's the better fit for the team is the question in my opinion. A few factors that I think are important:

- Fit with the team. Nuge is seen as the one of the core. His name was mentioned by Tippett but also the main guys as being a key guy.
- Role on the team. If the Oilers address the 3rd line center position then you can get away with not having Nuge who can play a bit of center on your PK. If they don't, they create a hole on their good PK unit.
- Fit on the lines. The Oilers have 2 line driving, top dogs in McD and Leon. When Hall played with Leon the 1 and only season, Leon was a brand new player while Hall was the established guy. So I am sure Leon deferred to Hall. I don't want that to happen now. Leon and McD are superior players now and Hall should be the one deferring to Leon or McD. Can he do that because that would go against who he is as a player?
- Community work. I keep hearing over and over again how good Nuge is with the media, how much he does in the community and how he takes a lot of the community load off the other guys. I assume mainly McD and Leon. That is a big deal and could change the dynamic of how it works on the team as I don't see Hall as that guy.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787889 is a reply to message #787881 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 09:19



- Community work. I keep hearing over and over again how good Nuge is with the media, how much he does in the community and how he takes a lot of the community load off the other guys. I assume mainly McD and Leon. That is a big deal and could change the dynamic of how it works on the team as I don't see Hall as that guy.


https://twitter.com/hallsy09/status/1021210527937191936?s=20

what a jerk!



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787893 is a reply to message #787889 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I never freaking said Hall didn't do anything, all I said was Nuge supposedly takes the lion share for the team and I didn't think Hall would be that guy. I never said he's a bad guy.

My god this place is absolutely ridiculous at times.

[Updated on: Thu, 17 June 2021 11:06]


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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787899 is a reply to message #787893 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 11:04

I never freaking said Hall didn't do anything, all I said was Nuge supposedly takes the lion share for the team and I didn't think Hall would be that guy. I never said he's a bad guy.

My god this place is absolutely ridiculous at times.

I know you love to get defensive, but suggesting that Hall just wouldn't involve himself in community stuff is basically saying he's a bad guy. And also untrue, which a simple google search can tell you.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787903 is a reply to message #787899 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 11:11

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 11:04

I never freaking said Hall didn't do anything, all I said was Nuge supposedly takes the lion share for the team and I didn't think Hall would be that guy. I never said he's a bad guy.

My god this place is absolutely ridiculous at times.

I know you love to get defensive, but suggesting that Hall just wouldn't involve himself in community stuff is basically saying he's a bad guy. And also untrue, which a simple google search can tell you.

WHERE did I say he wouldn't do anything? WHERE? Can you read?

I said Nuge supposedly does most of the community stuff for the team. I said I didn't think Hall would jump into Nuge's role and be the guy that does most of it. I never said he wouldn't do any.

If you want to call me out on something, then fine go ahead. Don't freaking lie about what I said.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787932 is a reply to message #787893 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 11:04

I never freaking said Hall didn't do anything, all I said was Nuge supposedly takes the lion share for the team and I didn't think Hall would be that guy. I never said he's a bad guy.

My god this place is absolutely ridiculous at times.


Easy solution.
Step 1. Log out

The end.

You complain more than anyone else here and get defensive any time someone disagrees with you. Then you insult people who call you on your BS.

You may be the worst member this place has seen since Sundeep and that is saying something. Time for you to ride into the sunset that is HF Boards. I think you would fit in better there.



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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787894 is a reply to message #787889 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 10:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 09:19



- Community work. I keep hearing over and over again how good Nuge is with the media, how much he does in the community and how he takes a lot of the community load off the other guys. I assume mainly McD and Leon. That is a big deal and could change the dynamic of how it works on the team as I don't see Hall as that guy.


https://twitter.com/hallsy09/status/1021210527937191936?s=20

what a jerk!


Wow, had to go back to 2018 to find Hall doing something nice. Tells you all you need to know!



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-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787929 is a reply to message #787861 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 20:55

Hall. No if’s ands, buts or butts from me on that.


Disagree, and he will be the whipping boy when he doesn't produce here.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787934 is a reply to message #787929 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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K.McC#24 wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:03

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 16 June 2021 20:55

Hall. No if’s ands, buts or butts from me on that.


Disagree, and he will be the whipping boy when he doesn't produce here.



If not Hall, someone will be. Good players who dont shoot the lights out are a favorite scapegoat of some Oiler fans.

It is as predictable as replaceable role players being fan favorites.



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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787900 is a reply to message #787855 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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I'm on record as not trading Nuge for Hall, so I wouldn't do it, unless Nuge's ask is outrageous, and Hall is a bargain. I wish there were a lock out there for 1LW with Connor, but we're still not sure who that is, imo.

If this overall transaction went down, the microscope would sure be on Hallsy. What will happen will happen.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787908 is a reply to message #787855 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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No team is winning a cup with Bear-Larss-Bouch on the right side, Nurse and fliers on the left, 3 4th lines and Mike Smith in net. No matter how supernova McDavid may be.

Bringing Taylor Hall in adds a piece that tips the needle in the right direction. But he alone won’t turn this around here.

Though I fear it’ll be Zach Hyman we overpay for bc Oilers



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787911 is a reply to message #787908 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787916 is a reply to message #787911 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


Hall fought in the playoffs...



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787917 is a reply to message #787916 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 11:29

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


Hall fought in the playoffs...


Hall definitely has an edge, just not always on display.

Right off the face off...



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787918 is a reply to message #787916 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:29

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


Hall fought in the playoffs...


*got beat up

:)

Oddly went silent after that fight for the rest of the series too. Hopefully if we get him he'll be waiting another 10 years for the next fight.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787935 is a reply to message #787911 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.

[Updated on: Thu, 17 June 2021 15:06]


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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787937 is a reply to message #787935 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787938 is a reply to message #787937 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.



Exactly. Maybe a couple forwards looking to take a discount like Barrie did to play with the two best forwards in the game to pad some stats for their next contract. Not sure who those guys are. Hoffman reminds me of Nuge in the sense he only produces on the power play but at least Nuge can kill penalties. So not sure who those would be. Any good ideas?



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787939 is a reply to message #787937 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.


I'd like to see the Oilers sign 1 longer term left winger. So resign Nuge, sign Hall, Hyman, whoever is the best fit.
Then I would like to see the Oilers do a Barrie type of deal with another left winger. Go find a fairly consistent over his career guy coming off a down season. Sell him on what Barrie did to pump up his numbers, sign him to a 1 yr, cheap deal and have him play with 1 or Leon or McD to pump up his numbers. It would allow for a guy like Holloway to get development time.

I am not saying he's the guy just using him as an example of the type of player I am referring too. Tatar.
Prior to this season, for 7 yrs in a row, he scored 20+ goals or on a 20+ goal pace. For whatever reason, it didn't go well for him, fell out of favor with the coach, now he's being scratched in the playoffs. So his value would be really low and a type of guy who should be motivated to pump up his numbers and other than 1 season, he's pretty consistent. So go find a player like him.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787941 is a reply to message #787939 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:10

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.


I'd like to see the Oilers sign 1 longer term left winger. So resign Nuge, sign Hall, Hyman, whoever is the best fit.
Then I would like to see the Oilers do a Barrie type of deal with another left winger. Go find a fairly consistent over his career guy coming off a down season. Sell him on what Barrie did to pump up his numbers, sign him to a 1 yr, cheap deal and have him play with 1 or Leon or McD to pump up his numbers. It would allow for a guy like Holloway to get development time.

I am not saying he's the guy just using him as an example of the type of player I am referring too. Tatar.


Forgot about Tatar. Might work. This team could be contending in 2 years if Holland plays his cards right. And not just for 1 year but for a while.
Prior to this season, for 7 yrs in a row, he scored 20+ goals or on a 20+ goal pace. For whatever reason, it didn't go well for him, fell out of favor with the coach, now he's being scratched in the playoffs. So his value would be really low and a type of guy who should be motivated to pump up his numbers and other than 1 season, he's pretty consistent. So go find a player like him.




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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787942 is a reply to message #787941 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:10

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.


I'd like to see the Oilers sign 1 longer term left winger. So resign Nuge, sign Hall, Hyman, whoever is the best fit.
Then I would like to see the Oilers do a Barrie type of deal with another left winger. Go find a fairly consistent over his career guy coming off a down season. Sell him on what Barrie did to pump up his numbers, sign him to a 1 yr, cheap deal and have him play with 1 or Leon or McD to pump up his numbers. It would allow for a guy like Holloway to get development time.

I am not saying he's the guy just using him as an example of the type of player I am referring too. Tatar.


Forgot about Tatar. Might work. This team could be contending in 2 years if Holland plays his cards right. And not just for 1 year but for a while.
Prior to this season, for 7 yrs in a row, he scored 20+ goals or on a 20+ goal pace. For whatever reason, it didn't go well for him, fell out of favor with the coach, now he's being scratched in the playoffs. So his value would be really low and a type of guy who should be motivated to pump up his numbers and other than 1 season, he's pretty consistent. So go find a player like him.





This also made me think of another forward who had a down year. Nuge. Wonder if he considers or has been offered a 1 year deal to see if he can up his next and maybe last contract. Doubt it though.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787950 is a reply to message #787937 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:45

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 14:04

For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


Agree, Holloway will be taking that #1 LW, or #3C spot soon.. and ace PK'er.. on an ELC.. needs to be factored in with any long term forward signings this year.


Good teams find productive guys on ELC contracts and value contracts who can down the road provide their teams the dilemma of either moving them because of their play and the contract they'll command, or moving a vet above them. Moves deadweight down and off the roster. Happens in the league, I heard.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787943 is a reply to message #787935 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


We need someone in the top six next year.

If that person gets bumped down by a hotshot on a rookie deal, that's okay - our third line has generally sucked for the last few years anyhow, so I don't mind if we have some healthy competition for the 2nd line spot as it makes 3LW much better too.

I am definitely not holding a place for Holloway, because he's not a sure thing. He had a really nice year this year, and hopefully that indicates that he's going to be NHL ready in the near term - but until that is a sure thing, the team should be looking at other options, even if they're more than one year options.

Bouchard is much more of a known entity, older and with a more consistent track record and the team wasn't afraid to put obstacles in front of him making the team (as they should), so I definitely don't want them to think "hey, we have a 19 year old who might be there one day so we don't need to get a top six player this year."



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#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan #FireBobbyNicks #FireTheGretzkys #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland

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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787944 is a reply to message #787943 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:22

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


We need someone in the top six next year.

If that person gets bumped down by a hotshot on a rookie deal, that's okay - our third line has generally sucked for the last few years anyhow, so I don't mind if we have some healthy competition for the 2nd line spot as it makes 3LW much better too.

I am definitely not holding a place for Holloway, because he's not a sure thing. He had a really nice year this year, and hopefully that indicates that he's going to be NHL ready in the near term - but until that is a sure thing, the team should be looking at other options, even if they're more than one year options.

Bouchard is much more of a known entity, older and with a more consistent track record and the team wasn't afraid to put obstacles in front of him making the team (as they should), so I definitely don't want them to think "hey, we have a 19 year old who might be there one day so we don't need to get a top six player this year."


Absolutely. I don't think he should be expected to be in the top 6 next year. But I think he will be the following. And if Holland thinks he is projected that way he needs to plan his acquisitions that way. No need to spend on a long term contract if the answer is a year or two away. So one long term plus one short term and you have the room to let Holloway dictate how fast he moves up by his play.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787945 is a reply to message #787944 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:28

Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:22

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


We need someone in the top six next year.

If that person gets bumped down by a hotshot on a rookie deal, that's okay - our third line has generally sucked for the last few years anyhow, so I don't mind if we have some healthy competition for the 2nd line spot as it makes 3LW much better too.

I am definitely not holding a place for Holloway, because he's not a sure thing. He had a really nice year this year, and hopefully that indicates that he's going to be NHL ready in the near term - but until that is a sure thing, the team should be looking at other options, even if they're more than one year options.

Bouchard is much more of a known entity, older and with a more consistent track record and the team wasn't afraid to put obstacles in front of him making the team (as they should), so I definitely don't want them to think "hey, we have a 19 year old who might be there one day so we don't need to get a top six player this year."


Absolutely. I don't think he should be expected to be in the top 6 next year. But I think he will be the following. And if Holland thinks he is projected that way he needs to plan his acquisitions that way. No need to spend on a long term contract if the answer is a year or two away. So one long term plus one short term and you have the room to let Holloway dictate how fast he moves up by his play.



I think that's where I disagree. If I'm GM, I'm not making decisions based on what I hope happens in a year or two. Counting on a teenager's development is something the Oilers have been guilty of a lot over the last 15 years, from Gagner to Yamamoto, and I'd hope that the Oilers have learned from those mistakes.

If it means you have to trade someone away, or play an extra top-6 guy on the third line, that's a good problem to have.



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan #FireBobbyNicks #FireTheGretzkys #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland

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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787946 is a reply to message #787943 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:22

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


We need someone in the top six next year.

If that person gets bumped down by a hotshot on a rookie deal, that's okay - our third line has generally sucked for the last few years anyhow, so I don't mind if we have some healthy competition for the 2nd line spot as it makes 3LW much better too.

I am definitely not holding a place for Holloway, because he's not a sure thing. He had a really nice year this year, and hopefully that indicates that he's going to be NHL ready in the near term - but until that is a sure thing, the team should be looking at other options, even if they're more than one year options.

Bouchard is much more of a known entity, older and with a more consistent track record and the team wasn't afraid to put obstacles in front of him making the team (as they should), so I definitely don't want them to think "hey, we have a 19 year old who might be there one day so we don't need to get a top six player this year."

I agree with you. The Oilers need to get out of their old thinking that some kid out of junior bucks the trend and sticks with the team. So that is why I said I would like to see them sign a longer term guy for 1 left wing spot, then sign a guy on a 1 yr deal who's relatively proven but take advantage of the flat cap, low revenues and maybe coming off a down year, looking to prove something. So go sign a guy for 1 year at 3 mill or in that range. Just like Barrie's contract.

If Holloway blows the doors off and earns that top 6 spot, fine, drop the 1 yr guy to the 3rd line and the cap is a wash because Holloway is only making 925K so who cares if the 3rd line guy in cap hit is making more than you'd like because when you add the salaries of your second and 3rd line left wingers, it's cheap.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787948 is a reply to message #787946 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
travgwhite  is currently offline travgwhite
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:32

Adam wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 16:22

travgwhite wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 June 2021 12:13

For me it all comes down to the needs of the Oilers and bringing in who best fits that. I think the Oilers need on the left side:
- Offensive skill obviously but he needs to be a guy that goes to the net and can finish. No perimeter players.
- Can shoot a little.
- Can skate.
- They need to compete hard.
- I think he needs to have some size especially for the playoffs.
- Not a complete disaster in his own zone.
- I think he needs some edge to his game. Doesn't have to be a fighter but can't be a guy that shys away from scrums or contact.


For me this player is Holloway. He might not be top 6 next year but should be the year after. So if Nuge resigns, I think we should be looking for a player like you mentioned on a 1 maybe 2 year deal. Holloway can maybe play 3 or 4 line minutes this year if he shines. I see him on Mcdavids left side in 2 years. Same would apply to Broberg being a year or 2 away. If klefbom can't play we will need a replacement but on a short term deal.


We need someone in the top six next year.

If that person gets bumped down by a hotshot on a rookie deal, that's okay - our third line has generally sucked for the last few years anyhow, so I don't mind if we have some healthy competition for the 2nd line spot as it makes 3LW much better too.

I am definitely not holding a place for Holloway, because he's not a sure thing. He had a really nice year this year, and hopefully that indicates that he's going to be NHL ready in the near term - but until that is a sure thing, the team should be looking at other options, even if they're more than one year options.

Bouchard is much more of a known entity, older and with a more consistent track record and the team wasn't afraid to put obstacles in front of him making the team (as they should), so I definitely don't want them to think "hey, we have a 19 year old who might be there one day so we don't need to get a top six player this year."

I agree with you. The Oilers need to get out of their old thinking that some kid out of junior bucks the trend and sticks with the team. So that is why I said I would like to see them sign a longer term guy for 1 left wing spot, then sign a guy on a 1 yr deal who's relatively proven but take advantage of the flat cap, low revenues and maybe coming off a down year, looking to prove something. So go sign a guy for 1 year at 3 mill or in that range. Just like Barrie's contract.

If Holloway blows the doors off and earns that top 6 spot, fine, drop the 1 yr guy to the 3rd line and the cap is a wash because Holloway is only making 925K so who cares if the 3rd line guy in cap hit is making more than you'd like because when you add the salaries of your second and 3rd line left wingers, it's cheap.


I agree with this 100% It leaves room if Holloway is good as fast as Caufield was but allows you time to develope if he takes longer or doesn't at all. I think we would have seen him in the playoffs in limited role if he hadn't broke his thumb. I'm no scout but he reminds me of Anderson on Montreal when I watched him play for Sweden. Stud.

I guess to stay true to the thread, I wouldn't want Hall on a long term contract unless it was a discount or a short term show me deal.



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 Re: Hall vs Nuge [message #787961 is a reply to message #787855 ]
Thu, 17 June 2021 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2289
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Came for the debate, stayed for the RDO meltdown.

Hall first, Nuge second.

Get them both for 10-11M combined, 4 year terms and I’d be a happy guy.

Holloway might one day be the guy to officially take over the #1LW, but wouldn’t it be nice to have a depth 3rd line with him and McLeod flying around the ice.



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