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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676437 is a reply to message #676435 ]
Wed, 31 August 2016 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 31 August 2016 17:13

I'm expecting Hall to score around 75 pts. I think there system is going to hamper his offense and I think that point level is where he will be as a player over his career.


So in other words a top ten or top twelve player in the league?

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676438 is a reply to message #676437 ]
Wed, 31 August 2016 22:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Yup, because that's what Hall is. It doesn't change the fact that I still think the trade was needed, I think the team is better today than it was with him and over the long haul, I think it will turn out to be the right thing for both the team and player.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676443 is a reply to message #676431 ]
Thu, 01 September 2016 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24 is currently offline K.McC#24
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bigred75 wrote on Wed, 31 August 2016 15:04

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 31 August 2016 14:31

Gator21 wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 20:40

jds308 wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 20:22

Pretty decent interview by Gregor with Taylor Hall: http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/shows/hall-reflects-on -trade-1.558206

He doesn't give the stereotypical rehearsed answers. He's bitter no doubt.


Found it interesting that when Gregor asked him if he'd even consider signing here when he becomes a UFA down the road his response was basically "No. I've done my time there". Granted he's pretty raw about the trade, but ouch.


Yeah, interesting interview.

He sounded pretty resolute on the door being closed in Edmonton. I don't think he was/is happy about it, but like I said earlier, that's not a problem for me. He gave an honest answer without throwing mud on the team. All good, IMO.

One part I found interesting was at the end when he and Gregor were kind of talking about the Oilers vs. Devils games. I thought it was really interesting first of all that he was happy the Oilers played in NJ before he played in Edmonton and second, that he was happy that he wouldn't have to play again in Rexall Place where there were a lot of memories but instead got to walk into a new building. Pretty candid and unscripted moment at the end there.


Umm, how many people here have gone back to the same job after moving on? Exactly.



Totally correct. Back in the day, I worked for a company that had just bought another and combined the 2. After the merger, I didn't have seniority in my position and was offered a 'lateral transfer' to another position in the company. I didn't view it as 'lateral' so asked what the alternative was.....which turned out to be a decent 'out' package. I took it, and now operate a business in an industry sector that has some crossover with the company I left. About 4 years after my departure, they came sniffing around with overtures to have me back aboard. I told them in so many words to take a hike. I haven't regretted it, haven't looked back, and have not darkened their door since I left.

Although they didn't can me, they eliminated my position even though I had worked my ass off and performed well, reviews had confirmed that. It was a blow to me personally, and similar to what Hall said, I though it was an indictment of me as a valuable employee. If a person does some self-reflection, and the self-perception is that you gave your all to your employer, it frigging hurts if you feel you're expendable and not part of the solution. I think it applies whether you're making less than $100k annually or $6 million annually.

Kind of a lengthy story I told above, as usual when I tell a story, but I can identify a bit with his feelings on the organization and not wanting to come back to Edmonton. I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't change throughout his career....the anger will probably subside, but it'll be 'been there, done that'.


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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676445 is a reply to message #676431 ]
Thu, 01 September 2016 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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bigred75 wrote on Wed, 31 August 2016 15:04

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 31 August 2016 14:31

Gator21 wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 20:40

jds308 wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 20:22

Pretty decent interview by Gregor with Taylor Hall: http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/shows/hall-reflects-on -trade-1.558206

He doesn't give the stereotypical rehearsed answers. He's bitter no doubt.


Found it interesting that when Gregor asked him if he'd even consider signing here when he becomes a UFA down the road his response was basically "No. I've done my time there". Granted he's pretty raw about the trade, but ouch.


Yeah, interesting interview.

He sounded pretty resolute on the door being closed in Edmonton. I don't think he was/is happy about it, but like I said earlier, that's not a problem for me. He gave an honest answer without throwing mud on the team. All good, IMO.

One part I found interesting was at the end when he and Gregor were kind of talking about the Oilers vs. Devils games. I thought it was really interesting first of all that he was happy the Oilers played in NJ before he played in Edmonton and second, that he was happy that he wouldn't have to play again in Rexall Place where there were a lot of memories but instead got to walk into a new building. Pretty candid and unscripted moment at the end there.


Umm, how many people here have gone back to the same job after moving on? Exactly.


Well there was supposedly a very bitter contract dispute when Ryan Smyth was a UFA. He later admitted, he screwed up. The Oilers couldn't sign him, traded him. He signed a deal with the Avs, played 2 seasons, got traded to the Kings. Played 2 seasons, then asked to be traded back to Edmonton.
Comrie left over extremely bitter reasons. He came back.

There are 2 examples off the top of my head. I think there is a huge difference between a hockey player and your average job. Do I think it is likely that Hall ever comes back? I doubt it but I think the more likely scenario is the team wouldn't want to bring him back. Hall got traded in a hockey deal. He wasn't traded over a contract dispute, he wasn't traded because he was a bad player or a bad guy or he had a bad contract. Over the course of a year since Chia was hired, he tried to address a gaping hole in the roster. Chia isn't stupid, I doubt he started the first day dangling Hall. It progressed to that point. So Hall was traded because the Oilers had a huge hole in their lineup and over the course of a year from the time Chia got the job, it came down to costing Hall to get a guy that hopefully addresses that gaping hole.

If in 4 seasons when Hall's contract is up and McDavid who will only be 23-24 so barely into his prime, is as good as we think he will be and winning scoring titles and the Oilers are a power house, unless Hall doesn't care about winning, it would be foolish to scratch the Oilers off the list out of spite. I bet if you gave Hall some truth syrup, the reason he is mad is because he knows how good McDavid is and he knows the Oilers are going to sky rocket up the standings and he won't be there. He also knows that he is going to a team who given who they have on the team, who they have in the system and their ownership, in a good year they are maybe challenging for a playoff spot but probably don't have a hope in hell of winning anything.

Further to my point. When Lucic signed with the Oilers and apparently there were up to 10 teams after him, all I assume were offering him similar money and term. When he was asked "why did you choose the Oilers", the first thing out of his mouth was "I wanted to play with McDavid." So if you were Hall, you were on McDavid's team and now it got taken away from you, I'd be choked too.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 September 2016 11:20]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676514 is a reply to message #673755 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Great article by Friedman on the epic day that included the Hall trade:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/23-minutes-shook-hockey-w orld/


Trying to quote some of the interesting parts:

Quote:


The Oilers tried to add defencemen any way they could. Chiarelli wouldn’t provide specifics, but it is believed their targets included St. Louis’s Kevin Shattenkirk, although they wouldn’t trade anyone with term for a player who could walk 12 months later; Carolina’s Justin Faulk and Colorado’s Tyson Barrie. Before the draft, there was a lot of smoke surrounding a Ryan Nugent-Hopkins/Matt Dumba deal, but that fizzled.

“We weren’t close on anything,” Chiarelli said.

He ducked a lot of garbage. Other GMs could sense his desperation and tried to unload their problems on him.

But did he really think Hall would be the one to go?

Chiarelli paused.

“We knew we were going to have to part with a significant player, whoever it was going to be. So, yes, I knew it was possible.”

He declined to reveal when he ultimately decided upon Hall, but it was shortly before the draft. He knew it was time for major surgery. Even with the marvellous promise of Connor McDavid, 2015-16 was another painful Edmonton season.

Edmonton’s last Saturday night home game of the season was an ugly 5-0 loss to Calgary on Hockey Night in Canada. With 5:43 to go, the Flames’ Brandon Bollig tried to fight Matt Hendricks. The Oiler refused and both were given misconducts.

“We understood why Matt wouldn’t do it,” a teammate said. “There was no point in spilling blood for that anymore.”

It was time for change.

The initial Hall-for-Larsson conversations came before the draft. After kicking around a three-way trade with Calgary and Columbus that would have dropped Edmonton to sixth (and a selection of Mikhail Sergachev or Matthew Tkachuk), the Oilers added talented Finnish forward Jesse Puljujarvi fourth overall. Even more flexibility up front to move someone.

Talks between the Devils and Oilers picked up on the Monday, two days before the deal was announced.

“Peter asked for more, of course, but the way the cap works, we had to stand strong,” Shero said, since New Jersey added $1.8M of a hit with Hall’s larger number.

“He did his homework, he knew what was out there. It’s hard to find a young defenceman with term and a $4M cap hit. People want to decide winners and losers right away, but you have to build a team. That’s what we are all trying to do.”

When it closed, Shero rushed to locate Larsson. He wasn’t accessible by cell and neither was agent J.P. Barry, who was travelling. Finally, Larsson’s brother tracked him down.

Chiarelli’s conversation with Hall?

“That’s private,” the GM answered. “But there was a lot of dead air.”


Quote:

In doing the research for this piece, there were a lot of off-the-record interviews. There are always reasons for trades we don’t see, but one of the things I wanted to avoid were anonymous put-downs. The sources were good about that, while still providing clarity.

In Hall’s case, a couple of Oilers believe the organization wanted to make it easier for McDavid’s influence to grow in the room. “Taylor’s a dominant personality,” one said. “That’s not a criticism. That’s who he is.”

“There is no perfect player or person. But who are you going to take your chances with?” Shero replied. “Younger, more aggressive and faster…that’s how we want to be.”




Couple other Oilers/Hall related notes in the Subban part:

Quote:

I’m not sure Colorado ever got past Subban’s contract. Same with Edmonton. Chiarelli wouldn’t comment, but multiple sources said conversations between the Canadiens and Oilers did not last very long at all. The Oilers did not like the ask, and they know McDavid could become the highest-paid player in the NHL. They were not interested in pairing whatever that number will be with Subban’s $9M.

An Edmonton-Montreal deal was never close.


Quote:

One NHLer, who says he knows Subban and Hall “a little,” compared his own experience to theirs.

“Hall and Subban are very similar. Great players…great players. Determined. Driven. They want to win,” he said. “But from junior, they’ve always done it their way. The toughest thing to learn is how you can’t go your own way — especially when you are losing. I had to learn that. That’s the final lesson.”

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676515 is a reply to message #673755 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676517 is a reply to message #676515 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676521 is a reply to message #676517 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676525 is a reply to message #676521 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?



I'm trying to think of 10. Here is my list:

Duncan Keith - LH
Victor Hedman - LH
Brent Burns - RH

I mean, in the conversation would be Erik Karlsson (RH), Drew Doughty (RH), Roman Josi (LH), Kris Letang (RH), Dustin Byfuglien (RH), Ryan Suter (LH), Shea Weber (RH), Marc-Edouard Vlasic (RH), Justin Faulk (RH), John Carlson (RH), Oliver Ekman-Larsson (LH), Alex Pietrangelo (RH), Aaron Ekblad (RH). All worthy of the conversation, but I don't think I'd have of them about PK Subban.

Then there's a whole bunch more who fall into the 'next' tier which would have guys like Travis Hamonic, Karl Alzner, Brent Seabrook, Andy Greene, Mark Giordano, and Ryan McDonagh. I'd think Adam Larsson probably falls into this category.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676534 is a reply to message #676521 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?


I'd have:
Keith, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, O-Larsson, Letang, Burns, Josi, Weber off the top of my head as ahead of Subban. Everyone one of those guys makes a lot less than Subban. Giordano is a pretty awesome dman. 56 pts in 82 games last year. 48 pts in 61 games and 47 pts in 64 games the past 2 seasons. Pietrangelo is a pretty damn good dman. Suter plays almost 30 mins a night and is pretty awesome.

There's 12 right there. Every one of them makes a lot less than Subban. My criteria is if I was making a team from scratch and I could take any dman I wanted, I personally would take one of those guys over Subban. If you are making 9 mill a year as a dman, you better be scoring 60+ points a year, while playing lock down defense and on the ballot of the Norris pretty much every season. Subban has the 6th highest cap hit in the entire league. Would anyone put Subban as the 6th best player in the entire league?

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 14:43]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676535 is a reply to message #676534 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:35

PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?


I'd have:
Keith, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, O-Larsson, Letang, Burns, Josi, Weber off the top of my head as ahead of Subban. Everyone one of those guys makes a lot less than Subban. Giordano is a pretty awesome dman. 56 pts in 82 games last year. 48 pts in 61 games and 47 pts in 64 games the past 2 seasons. Pietrangelo is a pretty damn good dman. Suter plays almost 30 mins a night and is pretty awesome.

There's 12 right there. Every one of them makes a lot less than Subban. My criteria is if I was making a team from scratch and I could take any dman I wanted, I personally would take one of those guys over Subban.


Do you think Montreal won the Subban / Weber trade then? To me, Weber's contract is scarier than Subban's.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676536 is a reply to message #676535 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:35

PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?


I'd have:
Keith, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, O-Larsson, Letang, Burns, Josi, Weber off the top of my head as ahead of Subban. Everyone one of those guys makes a lot less than Subban. Giordano is a pretty awesome dman. 56 pts in 82 games last year. 48 pts in 61 games and 47 pts in 64 games the past 2 seasons. Pietrangelo is a pretty damn good dman. Suter plays almost 30 mins a night and is pretty awesome.

There's 12 right there. Every one of them makes a lot less than Subban. My criteria is if I was making a team from scratch and I could take any dman I wanted, I personally would take one of those guys over Subban.


Do you think Montreal won the Subban / Weber trade then? To me, Weber's contract is scarier than Subban's.

Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 14:54]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676537 is a reply to message #676536 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676540 is a reply to message #676537 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 17:08]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676542 is a reply to message #676540 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.


Are you saying it's racism at play?

And you're dreaming if you think we'll get Connor McDavid on his next contract for $9MM per season. Think $12 or more. My guess? $97MM over 8 years.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676547 is a reply to message #676542 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.


Are you saying it's racism at play?

And you're dreaming if you think we'll get Connor McDavid on his next contract for $9MM per season. Think $12 or more. My guess? $97MM over 8 years.

I think there are holes in his game which keep him from getting picked.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676549 is a reply to message #676547 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:04

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.


Are you saying it's racism at play?

And you're dreaming if you think we'll get Connor McDavid on his next contract for $9MM per season. Think $12 or more. My guess? $97MM over 8 years.

I think there are holes in his game which keep him from getting picked.


I think the Babcock explanation makes the most sense. Babcock is all about systems play and guys buying in. Hall and Subban have a reputation of doing their own thing and being head strong in their belief of how they need to play to be successful. Babcock just doesn't want to deal with that during a short tourney, he wants guys that he knows will do exactly what he asks them to.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676552 is a reply to message #676549 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:46

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:04

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.


Are you saying it's racism at play?

And you're dreaming if you think we'll get Connor McDavid on his next contract for $9MM per season. Think $12 or more. My guess? $97MM over 8 years.

I think there are holes in his game which keep him from getting picked.


I think the Babcock explanation makes the most sense. Babcock is all about systems play and guys buying in. Hall and Subban have a reputation of doing their own thing and being head strong in their belief of how they need to play to be successful. Babcock just doesn't want to deal with that during a short tourney, he wants guys that he knows will do exactly what he asks them to.


I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676555 is a reply to message #676552 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 September 2016 09:40]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676557 is a reply to message #676555 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

I find it hard to believe that Hall went to the media on his own initiative to save Dallas Eakins. I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least nudged in that direction whilst trying to do his GM and coach a favor. The Oilers have allowed players to hang themselves in front of the media more than once.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676559 is a reply to message #676557 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:58

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

I find it hard to believe that Hall went to the media on his own initiative to save Dallas Eakins. I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least nudged in that direction whilst trying to do his GM and coach a favor. The Oilers have allowed players to hang themselves in front of the media more than once.


Am I remembering things wrong? I thought it was found out after the firing that Hall went to management to try to convince them to keep Eakins as coach before he was fired. And that might have been something that lead to the Dreger rumours about how Hall was not what management thought he would be in the locker room and he has a personal vision for how he and the rest of the team needs to play.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676561 is a reply to message #676559 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 10:10

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:58

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

I find it hard to believe that Hall went to the media on his own initiative to save Dallas Eakins. I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least nudged in that direction whilst trying to do his GM and coach a favor. The Oilers have allowed players to hang themselves in front of the media more than once.


Am I remembering things wrong? I thought it was found out after the firing that Hall went to management to try to convince them to keep Eakins as coach before he was fired. And that might have been something that lead to the Dreger rumours about how Hall was not what management thought he would be in the locker room and he has a personal vision for how he and the rest of the team needs to play.


I could be suffering from fuzzy memory too. I remember a second awful losing streak that caused the main stream media to finally realize what the snarky internet fans had known for a year: Dallas Eakins was awful (somehow they didn't clue in to the same fact about MacT, but whatever) and started timidly calling for some sort of change. At this point Hall had a super awkward interview where he said something about going to MacT on Eakins' behalf because reasons. To me it felt like a last ditch effort from the Oilers the stick to "the plan" that shockingly failed when Eakins was fired a couple of weeks later and MacT co-coached for another two weeks for fun.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676563 is a reply to message #676561 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 10:24

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 10:10

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:58

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

I find it hard to believe that Hall went to the media on his own initiative to save Dallas Eakins. I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least nudged in that direction whilst trying to do his GM and coach a favor. The Oilers have allowed players to hang themselves in front of the media more than once.


Am I remembering things wrong? I thought it was found out after the firing that Hall went to management to try to convince them to keep Eakins as coach before he was fired. And that might have been something that lead to the Dreger rumours about how Hall was not what management thought he would be in the locker room and he has a personal vision for how he and the rest of the team needs to play.


I could be suffering from fuzzy memory too. I remember a second awful losing streak that caused the main stream media to finally realize what the snarky internet fans had known for a year: Dallas Eakins was awful (somehow they didn't clue in to the same fact about MacT, but whatever) and started timidly calling for some sort of change. At this point Hall had a super awkward interview where he said something about going to MacT on Eakins' behalf because reasons. To me it felt like a last ditch effort from the Oilers the stick to "the plan" that shockingly failed when Eakins was fired a couple of weeks later and MacT co-coached for another two weeks for fun.


Yeah, as I recall, during that first extended losing streak, MacTavish gave Eakins a vote of confidence and Hall had his interview with Rishaug that looked like one of those videos Saddam Hussein's guys put out with American POWs talking about how wrong they were to invade.

Then they won a game, lost about 9 more and Eakins was sent packing after the hastily organized summit with Nicholson, Katz, Lowe, MacTavish and others...

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676560 is a reply to message #676557 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:58

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 09:19



I have heard the same thing and I think that is a problem. If you are paying Subban 9 mill, he's being paid as one of your best players. Rightly or wrongly, when you are a star player other guys on the team are going to look at you as being a leader in some capacity. So if your star player isn't buying into the team concept and does his own thing, why should anyone else.

No different than Hall. Hall was their best player for a long time. So if Hall is so head strong that he doesn't buy into what the coach wants, why would the rest? The more I read about the Hall trade, the more I think that had something to do with it. Yes the Oilers needed a good dman but Hall was a huge personality in the dressing room and if he wanted to do his own thing which is a reputation that isn't a new thing, there is going to be guys that say "if he can do that, why can't I". Which makes a lot of sense. For years, the Oilers have been a collection of really talented players but a lousy team that for whatever reason didn't play as a unit. McDavid has a reputation as being a relentless worker and a guy that buys in. So if you want that as the example your team follows, it's pretty hard to preach that if Hall, who's been the alpha dog team for a very long time, is still around.


Something that permanently soured me on Hall's leadership is when he went all on his own to try to save Eakins. How many Oilers do you think wanted Eakins to still be the coach? After a year and a half of zero intensity practices, and lessons about how to game Corsi stats with garbage shot attempts with 0.1% chance of going in, and to minimise low quality shots against at the cost of allowing more higher quality ones (although overall you are reducing the total volume of corsi's against). Maybe, 1 other guy? I couldn't guess who if there was one.

I know you can say it shows character, how he tried to save Eakins job. But I personally think it came from a very self serving place. What Eakins and Dellow were trying to force on the players was what Hall wanted the team to play like, and to hell with what other players thought.

I find it hard to believe that Hall went to the media on his own initiative to save Dallas Eakins. I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least nudged in that direction whilst trying to do his GM and coach a favor. The Oilers have allowed players to hang themselves in front of the media more than once.


That trainwreck had all the markings of an Oilers PR scheme. Hall looked ridiculously uncomfortable. It felt like it was reading from a script. The only thing it lacked was the picture of Lowe celebrating the Rangers Cup win in the background.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676553 is a reply to message #676549 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:46

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:04

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:06

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 15:53

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:50


Short term, yes I think Montreal got the better player because I think that Weber will have a bigger impact on the Habs line up. Unless he gets hurt, I think Weber will score 20+ goals, have over 50 pts, have over 150 hits for the next 3 years at least. Plus be much better dressing room influence. The problem is he's 4 years older. But your point is totally valid. I'm just looking at it player for player, who would I want on my team today. In my opinion, if you are being paid 9 mill, that means you should be better than all the rest because he's the highest paid dman in the league. I don't think there is a person in here that thinks Subban is the best dman in the league yet he's being paid like he is.


I have a hard time seeing Weber as the better player here. Skill-wise, Subban is a much better skater. Subban's younger, so he's not likely to lose a step as soon. Production-wise, they're very similar - both had 51 points last year, both had 26 points with the man-advantage. Subban's got better numbers with the fancy stats, and even with old-school +/-, he's +11 better than Subban, despite playing for a team that finished 14 points back of the Predators and NOT playing with a partner like Roman Josi (who's very good).

The Predators took on extra salary, which indicates that they believe they took the better player in the deal. I tend to agree with them.

That's fine that you agree with the Preds. I personally think Weber is better and Hockey Canada and all the other GM's that work for hockey Canada seem to agree with me because I see Shea Weber written in pen in the starting line up on every Olympic and World Cup roster and he tends to play a ton on those teams. Subban technically made the last Olympic team as a back up but I can't remember if he even had a single shift. Last time I checked, Weber was doing training camp for the World Cup and P.K. Subban might be doing karaoke in Nashville. I just look at a 9 mill Dman who depending on which dman it is, is making 1.5, 2, 3 mill more than, who for whatever reason can't seem to make very many of these high end tournaments and I wonder why. It can't all be because of how he dresses, or the fact he has a personality or there is a conspiracy. There has to be something too it because he's being paid to be the top guy and there are a ton of guys passing him over again and again.

Would Subban look good in an Oilers jersey? I think he would but I don't know if its 9 mill good. The only guy I think on the Oilers that should be making a salary with maybe a 9 in front of it wears 97.


Are you saying it's racism at play?

And you're dreaming if you think we'll get Connor McDavid on his next contract for $9MM per season. Think $12 or more. My guess? $97MM over 8 years.

I think there are holes in his game which keep him from getting picked.


I think the Babcock explanation makes the most sense. Babcock is all about systems play and guys buying in. Hall and Subban have a reputation of doing their own thing and being head strong in their belief of how they need to play to be successful. Babcock just doesn't want to deal with that during a short tourney, he wants guys that he knows will do exactly what he asks them to.



Just to add something I saw that supported my argument :)

Pierre LeBrun @Real_ESPNLeBrun
Once again Babcock very vocal today, barking out instructions constantly. Drilling system he wants into the players

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676550 is a reply to message #676534 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:35

PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?


I'd have:
Keith, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, O-Larsson, Letang, Burns, Josi, Weber off the top of my head as ahead of Subban. Everyone one of those guys makes a lot less than Subban. Giordano is a pretty awesome dman. 56 pts in 82 games last year. 48 pts in 61 games and 47 pts in 64 games the past 2 seasons. Pietrangelo is a pretty damn good dman. Suter plays almost 30 mins a night and is pretty awesome.

There's 12 right there. Every one of them makes a lot less than Subban. My criteria is if I was making a team from scratch and I could take any dman I wanted, I personally would take one of those guys over Subban. If you are making 9 mill a year as a dman, you better be scoring 60+ points a year, while playing lock down defense and on the ballot of the Norris pretty much every season. Subban has the 6th highest cap hit in the entire league. Would anyone put Subban as the 6th best player in the entire league?


Not a bad list in any way.
I would disagree on a couple but that is the thing with Defenseman, they are very tough to rank, and much of that is based on personal preference, team fit, etc.
For example I put a lot of weight on L/R balance. I also value skating and puck movement over a PP cannon of a slapshot.

Anyway, good list of guys, even if I disagree on a couple (Letang, Josi, Gio specifically),I was mostly curious.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676554 is a reply to message #676550 ]
Wed, 07 September 2016 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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PlusOne wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 08:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:35

PlusOne wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


While I don't think Subban is the best in the league I dont think he is grossly overpaid.
I am curious, who are the 10 or so guys you rank above him?


I'd have:
Keith, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, O-Larsson, Letang, Burns, Josi, Weber off the top of my head as ahead of Subban. Everyone one of those guys makes a lot less than Subban. Giordano is a pretty awesome dman. 56 pts in 82 games last year. 48 pts in 61 games and 47 pts in 64 games the past 2 seasons. Pietrangelo is a pretty damn good dman. Suter plays almost 30 mins a night and is pretty awesome.

There's 12 right there. Every one of them makes a lot less than Subban. My criteria is if I was making a team from scratch and I could take any dman I wanted, I personally would take one of those guys over Subban. If you are making 9 mill a year as a dman, you better be scoring 60+ points a year, while playing lock down defense and on the ballot of the Norris pretty much every season. Subban has the 6th highest cap hit in the entire league. Would anyone put Subban as the 6th best player in the entire league?


Not a bad list in any way.
I would disagree on a couple but that is the thing with Defenseman, they are very tough to rank, and much of that is based on personal preference, team fit, etc.
For example I put a lot of weight on L/R balance. I also value skating and puck movement over a PP cannon of a slapshot.

Anyway, good list of guys, even if I disagree on a couple (Letang, Josi, Gio specifically),I was mostly curious.



There is definitely room for debate on any of those guys. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

In my opinion, the right/left thing plays a small part but as an example if a miracle took place and the new Coyotes GM called up Chia and said, "do you want OEL, my spread sheet says he sucks and Willis said Fayne was a great spread sheet guy" (completely fantasy, never happen trade), even though OEL is left and the Oilers are left heavy, you make that trade.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 September 2016 09:32]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676523 is a reply to message #676517 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 11:30

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


As much as Subban probably checks off all the boxes for what the Oilers needed, I think the price was just way, way too high. Let's say the cost was a Hall, the 3rd and another piece, the other piece being a NHL dman. You are giving up 2 top 6 forwards and a dman for one guy that in my opinion is really good but is overpaid. 9 mill is way too much for Subban especially given I would not rank him as the best dman in the league. I would put Subban in the top 15 dmen in the league but there are probably almost 10 guys I would personally put ahead of him all of them making considerably less than Subban.

I have said it many times. I believe Chia had been working on a dman since he was hired and I think the cost get one was insanely high with very few available. I personally believe that Chia didn't want to trade Hall but in order to get a good dman, that was the cost and I don't think for a second Hall by himself would have gotten anyone who some fans thinks is better than Larsson.


Is Adam Larsson one of those guys? If not, how much of an upgrade is Subban on Larsson, and what will it cost to bring in someone to make up for that difference?


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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676522 is a reply to message #676515 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 10:32

If you're going to spend money, anchoring it around McDavid and Subban makes sense to me... you can move some other pieces if it comes down to it. I don't really like that it scared the Oilers away and that they maybe didn't look into this more (though it may have been a king's ransom of Hall + Puljujarvi + another piece).

My favourite of the guys they kicked tires on probably is still Justin Faulk. Disappointed that deal never happened.

Greg Wyshynski wrote a pretty scathing response to this, and while there was a few good points, it also was largely unfair (Wyshynski seems to get a lot of personal fulfilment out of ripping the Oilers though, so grain of salt stuff).

Not sure I buy (or like) the idea that Hall was traded so that there was room for McDavid's "personality". He's a (special) 19-year-old; you can provide some support for him.

In any case, Friedman shows why he is one of the best reporters in the game, and Yzerman comes off looking like a really good GM who runs a tight ship, and knows the landscape of his team.


I'd agree on your comments on Subban. The option for the Oilers appears to be put Larsson in the first pairing now, and later chase down someone else to be the first powerplay guy, and how much will that guy cost you? I would rather have taken Subban at $9MM, and not signed Lucic, or tried to find a way to move Sekera at some point, because he becomes a pretty expensive second pairing guy as that deal progresses. The Blackhawks have two guys at over $10MM per season and seem to be managing, so finding a way to work McDavid and Subban seems like a good problem to have.

Subban's had over 50 points the last three years, playing on Montreal teams that have been 21st, 18th and 16th overall in scoring. He adds a lot of great elements to his team, and he's a right shot, so he would have been a great add on the powerplay. On the breakout - I remember well the difference it made when Pronger was finding Hemsky up ice...I imagine it could have been even better with Subban and McDavid.

As for the "strong personality" thing...I really hope the Oilers aren't clearing the decks for McDavid. At some point, you need to let things just evolve. That's been one of the big problems over the last several years - the Oilers constantly put the cart before the horse. They don't make people earn icetime or responsibility, they just move people out of the way and assume the player will grab the reins. There's never any back-up plan.

There is every possibility that McDavid is ready to be the captain and the biggest personality in the dressing room, but if he's not, do we need him to be right now? What if we just allowed him to play really good hockey for a while and not worry if it's "Connor's team" yet? If one of the reasons for moving Hall was that the team thought he ruled the dressing room, then that's a horrible reason to do it.

And I think Wyshynski's right...Chiarelli got dummied in the trade, and nothing about it makes him look good or competent. If you're doing a deal where you believe the other side is getting the best player now, then you don't say yes unless they include something else.

There's no need to have done that deal that day, so if it means you have a Mexican stand-off with Shero for the remainder of the summer, so be it. If nothing else, it takes some pressure off Larsson as he's not the sole return for the former franchise player (up until the McDavid draft).

As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676524 is a reply to message #676522 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


And I think Wyshynski's right...Chiarelli got dummied in the trade, and nothing about it makes him look good or competent. If you're doing a deal where you believe the other side is getting the best player now, then you don't say yes unless they include something else.



He kind of lost me when he started questioning the Oilers for not moving one of the kids for one of the defensemen a year away from UFA. He even name dropped Kevin Shattenkirk, who has heavy speculation that he is all ready to move East and play for Boston next summer.

That has nothing to do with McDavid or the arena or anything else; that's just being smart. You get an extension before the deal and if a player is rumoured to want to move, you especially insist on that extension. I can't fault Chiarelli for that at all, even if Wyshynski does.

I don't think Chiarelli did everything right, but he did do some things right. He didn't bite on the Columbus deal, and got Puljujarvi as a result. He didn't trade for a pending UFA. He should have been in more on Subban. He should have insisted on more from Shero, or offered less in return.

IMO, he outwitted Jarmo Kekalainen and was outwitted by Ray Shero.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676526 is a reply to message #676524 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:26

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


And I think Wyshynski's right...Chiarelli got dummied in the trade, and nothing about it makes him look good or competent. If you're doing a deal where you believe the other side is getting the best player now, then you don't say yes unless they include something else.



He kind of lost me when he started questioning the Oilers for not moving one of the kids for one of the defensemen a year away from UFA. He even name dropped Kevin Shattenkirk, who has heavy speculation that he is all ready to move East and play for Boston next summer.

That has nothing to do with McDavid or the arena or anything else; that's just being smart. You get an extension before the deal and if a player is rumoured to want to move, you especially insist on that extension. I can't fault Chiarelli for that at all, even if Wyshynski does.

I don't think Chiarelli did everything right, but he did do some things right. He didn't bite on the Columbus deal, and got Puljujarvi as a result. He didn't trade for a pending UFA. He should have been in more on Subban. He should have insisted on more from Shero, or offered less in return.

IMO, he outwitted Jarmo Kekalainen and was outwitted by Ray Shero.


I don't think I necessarily was going to move Hall for Shattenkirk, but I wouldn't have ruled him out simply because people think it likely he's going east. A year with a really good player playing on a team with McDavid...it might make him want to stay. After all, we've been pretty good at getting top UFAs here the last couple years.

I agree with where the outwitting happened, but I think the loss on the Hall deal was the worst of those two beat-downs, and we've now seen a couple times where he has seemed to panic and the team's come out the worse for it. With Reinhart a question mark to make the team this year as well, that trade looks pretty awful. What makes me worry the most is that this team probably isn't good enough yet, so what's the next shoe to drop? Can he make up ground by winning a trade, or does he blow it yet again in his next at bat?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676528 is a reply to message #676526 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:38

...we've now seen a couple times where he has seemed to panic and the team's come out the worse for it. With Reinhart a question mark to make the team this year as well, that trade looks pretty awful.


I agree with this, and while I like a lot of things Chiarelli does, this one concerns me a lot. He panics if Plan A doesn't happen and the clock is winding down.

I'm almost willing to give him a pass for Reinhart because PC was so new to the organization and was relying on some of the former (and current?) regime. His main fault was probably putting too much faith in Bob Green, though again, there probably was some panic on missing out on Plan A (Dougie Hamilton).

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676527 is a reply to message #676522 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676529 is a reply to message #676527 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.


Yes, they will be contenders for a while, especially because they play in the worst division in hockey. They basically have to fall flat not to make the conference finals.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676531 is a reply to message #676529 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.


Yes, they will be contenders for a while, especially because they play in the worst division in hockey. They basically have to fall flat not to make the conference finals.

I'm going to go ahead and call the Smythe (whatever) Division the worst in the NHL. Of the 7 teams only three of them actually play hockey.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676533 is a reply to message #676529 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NZ Oiler Fan is currently offline NZ Oiler Fan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.


Yes, they will be contenders for a while, especially because they play in the worst division in hockey. They basically have to fall flat not to make the conference finals.


The tax rate in Tampa likely doesn't hurt things either. Wasn't it something like 2m a year more he'd have to earn in TO to get the same after tax pay?

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676539 is a reply to message #676533 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:34

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.


Yes, they will be contenders for a while, especially because they play in the worst division in hockey. They basically have to fall flat not to make the conference finals.


The tax rate in Tampa likely doesn't hurt things either. Wasn't it something like 2m a year more he'd have to earn in TO to get the same after tax pay?



He could have made it up with endorsements and going to events. Just at the low price of his privacy and freedom. And I suppose the other cost is satan worshipping media all ready to put his head on a spike if the Leafs still can't win anything.

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676541 is a reply to message #676539 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 17:00

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 14:34

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:49

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:43

Adam wrote on Tue, 06 September 2016 13:04


As for Yzerman, I think he was lucky that Stamkos loves the team and the city.


Maybe. But perhaps we have to stop talking about the friction between the Lightning management/coaches and the players.

Whatever it is or whatever he's done, they've locked up Stamkos and Hedman long-term at a below-market cost. They have Vasilevskiy for the future, and Bishop for the present. That's a good group to anchor around, and they'll challenge the East for a while I imagine.

Hedman and Stamkos were kind of my barometer, and he did well.


Yes, they will be contenders for a while, especially because they play in the worst division in hockey. They basically have to fall flat not to make the conference finals.


The tax rate in Tampa likely doesn't hurt things either. Wasn't it something like 2m a year more he'd have to earn in TO to get the same after tax pay?



He could have made it up with endorsements and going to events. Just at the low price of his privacy and freedom. And I suppose the other cost is satan worshipping media all ready to put his head on a spike if the Leafs still can't win anything.


There isn't much to dislike in Tampa. Winning team, nice weather, lots of privacy, amazing tax rates. Really other than the potential for the occasional hurricane, there's an awful lot of reasons to like playing for the Lightning.

Cooper seems to be a little hard on his star players, but he's also got a phenomenal track record at every level he's coached at. He's never stayed anywhere for a long time, and the difference with the NHL as opposed to the development track is that you keep the same players a lot longer...so lots of opportunity for tactics to grow stale and relationships to grow strained. But he's fairly young too, so maybe he'll adapt and learn too.

And Stamkos seems able to get endorsements anyhow. There might be more in Toronto, but ugh...what you'd have to put up with to get them. How long until Simmons and Cox start cannibalizing Matthews? Is it his second season? Not to mention, he's sure to hear something from Cherry about not being a good ol' Canadian boy...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676538 is a reply to message #673755 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kungpaobenji27 is currently offline kungpaobenji27
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I'm usually a fan of Puck Daddy's writing. He did a pretty good job of covering certain stories in Rio during the Summer Games recently so this seems to be one of his first contributions back in preparation for hockey season.

For a guy who put this out in December 2014:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/taylor-hall-is- un-coachable--will-be-on-trade-block--report-000824459.html

He should've known better about the vibes of the Edmonton workplace culture seeing so many players, coaches, and guys in the front office get the ax.

Friedman's contribution regarding how far apart talks were in the Subban talks was interesting. Too bad Wyshynski had to spin Elliot's report into gratuitous trolling clickbait however.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 16:27]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #676543 is a reply to message #673755 ]
Tue, 06 September 2016 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
kungpaobenji27 is currently offline kungpaobenji27
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^ IMO, both are elite defencemen.

Over a course of an 82 game season & playoffs, Subban might offer more than Weber at this age/stage of their careers not to mention less wear & tear.

If I were to characterize the Predators strategies with EA Sports NHL video games in mind, the coaching menu would list their first line as having more of a creative playmaking configuration while the other 3 lines could be checked off under the simplistic "dump & chase" setting. Having a Subban/Ellis in the backend could create more scoring opportunities for their less talented forwards on the other three lines while Josi/Ekholm can take on more of the "stay at home" responsibilities. Having a well-compensated big game goalie like a Pekka Rinne will allow a Subban to take more chances on the offensive side of the puck as well.

These international tournaments such as the Olympics are a different beast in which I'd also choose the more "dependable" Weber in what are "almost" single elimination events come to think of it.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 September 2016 18:03]

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 Re: Oilers Trade Hall to Devils for Larsson [message #677188 is a reply to message #673755 ]
Thu, 22 September 2016 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Anyone else sick of Hall's whining?

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/ taylor-hall-on-edmonton-oilers-i-still-hold-a-bitter-resentm ent-towards-them

Quote:

This just in from Chris Ryan of NJ.com, word from Taylor Hall that he’s no at all OK with being traded away from the Edmonton Oilers.

Indeed, Hall is pretty freakin’ far from OK.

“Just the way everything went down, I still hold a bitter resentment towards them,” said Hall today at the New Jersey Devils training camp.”



Get over it dude, it's a business. And it's pretty obvious now it's not only about how he wanted to be an Oiler. He thinks the trade was an insult towards him and he can't get past feeling slighted.

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- MacT, 2015

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