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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788219 is a reply to message #788215 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788221 is a reply to message #788219 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 June 2021 09:16]


"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788227 is a reply to message #788221 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.

I 100% agree with you. I saw someone ask if it makes me upset to see the Habs doing what they are doing and the Oilers not "going for it" this deadline. It doesn't because if the Habs and Islanders make it, the Oilers weren't beating them even if they "loaded up". I think Tampa are cheaters but I saw Kucherov get brutally drilled with a crosscheck before he got hurt and it didn't get called. I saw Stamkos get drilled in the back into the boards, comes away cut and no call. It is open season, gladiator arena out there. This is brutal, street fight hockey.

The Habs and Islanders are beating the hell out of the more talented Tampa and Vegas teams and I can totally see the Habs winning tonight and the Islanders winning on Friday. So the Oilers could have went for it and got Hall and whoever else people wanted them to get but I don't think it would have mattered because they aren't goons. I saw McD in round 1 get kneed and no call and compared to what I have seen the Habs and Isles get away with in these series, that's nothing. People have said it in here 100's of times, you don't need toughness, let the other team goon it up and you just kill them with your PP. Well if refs literally do not call a single thing like they are now, a good PP is useless and the goons will win. In my opinion, we are literally watching hockey being taken back many years back to when it was just a slug fest.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 June 2021 10:25]


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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788247 is a reply to message #788227 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 10:22

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.

I 100% agree with you. I saw someone ask if it makes me upset to see the Habs doing what they are doing and the Oilers not "going for it" this deadline. It doesn't because if the Habs and Islanders make it, the Oilers weren't beating them even if they "loaded up". I think Tampa are cheaters but I saw Kucherov get brutally drilled with a crosscheck before he got hurt and it didn't get called. I saw Stamkos get drilled in the back into the boards, comes away cut and no call. It is open season, gladiator arena out there. This is brutal, street fight hockey.

The Habs and Islanders are beating the hell out of the more talented Tampa and Vegas teams and I can totally see the Habs winning tonight and the Islanders winning on Friday. So the Oilers could have went for it and got Hall and whoever else people wanted them to get but I don't think it would have mattered because they aren't goons. I saw McD in round 1 get kneed and no call and compared to what I have seen the Habs and Isles get away with in these series, that's nothing. People have said it in here 100's of times, you don't need toughness, let the other team goon it up and you just kill them with your PP. Well if refs literally do not call a single thing like they are now, a good PP is useless and the goons will win. In my opinion, we are literally watching hockey being taken back many years back to when it was just a slug fest.


Good news for Kuch in all this is if his team is eliminated he has a new excuse to not play again until the start of the 2022 playoffs.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788252 is a reply to message #788221 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.


We are closer to a hybrid between the two sets of franchises. We have the star power of Tampa and we have the slugs from Montreal. We will never achieve anything until we upgrade our tenders. Isles are living proof that we do not need Carey Price to win, but we need dependable puck stoppers.

If anything this gives me hope. We are not as far away as I once thought, but I am not saying we are cusp of anything either. Lots of work left to do for Holland and Co.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788261 is a reply to message #788252 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 14:24

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.


We are closer to a hybrid between the two sets of franchises. We have the star power of Tampa and we have the slugs from Montreal. We will never achieve anything until we upgrade our tenders. Isles are living proof that we do not need Carey Price to win, but we need dependable puck stoppers.

If anything this gives me hope. We are not as far away as I once thought, but I am not saying we are cusp of anything either. Lots of work left to do for Holland and Co.



I'd argue we're not like either team.

Tampa has high end skill with good supporting cast.

Montreal has an exceptional goaltender on top of his game right now, and more decent depth players. The Habs had ten players with 20 or more points and sixteen with at least 10. The Oilers had seven with 20+ and thirteen with 10+. And those numbers for the Habs don't include Eric Staal or Cole Caufield.

I still think the Habs are hot garbage, and are riding some luck and a great streak of play from Price, so I wouldn't model my team on them by any means, but they still have a lot more depth than the Oilers. That's damning on management of course.

I don't really believe that this Habs team was "built for the playoffs". I think they've definitely benefited from an environment where the NHL decides not to call anything, but even with that, if Price wasn't out of this world right now, they don't make it out of the first round. They played another crap team in round two and then Price single-handedly kept them in early in the series with Vegas.

I really hope the Knights come back tonight and win Game 7 to end this little Cinderella run.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788283 is a reply to message #788261 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 15:21

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 14:24

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:56

I don't like how each of the series have been officiated. I think its about as bad as I have seen. But I won't lie, seeing cheater Kucherov get hurt didn't outrage me as much. I don't like seeing any player getting hurt but sometimes karma comes back to bite you.

I am pretty torn. I don't want cheaters Tampa to win but I can't stand how the Islanders play. I want speed and skill in the game, not drag them down, beat on them till they drop, defensive hockey. Same goes for Vegas. I am not a fan of Vegas and don't want them to do well but I can't stand how the Habs play.

If it ends up being a Habs vs Islanders series, that will be brutal, nasty hockey that might take the game back many, many years as it's a copycat league at times.


The worst part for me about the habs and islanders being successful is how infinitely far away our team is from being like theirs :) The feeling of hopelessness for where our team is going hits the extreme.

Not to say we're close to Vegas or Tampa either, but there's a completely different philosophy about how to play the game and the makeup of players with the habs and islanders. The way they play and how they're built is for a new dead puck era.


We are closer to a hybrid between the two sets of franchises. We have the star power of Tampa and we have the slugs from Montreal. We will never achieve anything until we upgrade our tenders. Isles are living proof that we do not need Carey Price to win, but we need dependable puck stoppers.

If anything this gives me hope. We are not as far away as I once thought, but I am not saying we are cusp of anything either. Lots of work left to do for Holland and Co.



I'd argue we're not like either team.

Tampa has high end skill with good supporting cast.

Montreal has an exceptional goaltender on top of his game right now, and more decent depth players. The Habs had ten players with 20 or more points and sixteen with at least 10. The Oilers had seven with 20+ and thirteen with 10+. And those numbers for the Habs don't include Eric Staal or Cole Caufield.

I still think the Habs are hot garbage, and are riding some luck and a great streak of play from Price, so I wouldn't model my team on them by any means, but they still have a lot more depth than the Oilers. That's damning on management of course.

I don't really believe that this Habs team was "built for the playoffs". I think they've definitely benefited from an environment where the NHL decides not to call anything, but even with that, if Price wasn't out of this world right now, they don't make it out of the first round. They played another crap team in round two and then Price single-handedly kept them in early in the series with Vegas.

I really hope the Knights come back tonight and win Game 7 to end this little Cinderella run.


Great goalie is a wonderful starting point. Not sure if it's intentional, but Bergevin seemed to go out to get some big grindy players like Edmunsson and Andersen to fill the roster. Along with old grizzled farts like Perry and Staal. Has a few good finishers in Toffoli, Suzuki and Caufield. Gallagher would normally be finishing more plays off too if he wasn't hurt. Byron and Danault are super annoying defensive minded forwards.

It's a team pretty well suited for grinding out games, take advantage of the rules not being called much and trying to win by 1 off good goaltending. All falls apart if Price isn't on his game every single night, but that's worked out so far. Also helps that Vegas has been clueless on their PP, just embarrassing, so the refs can't even help them there hehe.

From the goalie to the team makeup and style of play, for sure, we're nothing like them. Fingers crossed the NHL flips the switch again soon on calling the rule book so we don't have to try to be.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788284 is a reply to message #788283 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ragnarok73  is currently offline Ragnarok73
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Goodbye, VGK- please go catch a team bout of syphilis now and vomit your kidneys out. I officially no longer care who wins from here on in. Thank you, Habs.


"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788285 is a reply to message #788284 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Ragnarok73 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 21:06

Goodbye, VGK- please go catch a team bout of syphilis now and vomit your kidneys out. I officially no longer care who wins from here on in. Thank you, Habs.


I'm lead to believe Montreal/Islanders final is the nightmare of all Leafs fans. Make it so!

Guaranteed 1 gifted away ex-Oiler would win it. Petry or Ebs.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788286 is a reply to message #788285 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ragnarok73  is currently offline Ragnarok73
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 21:07

Ragnarok73 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 21:06

Goodbye, VGK- please go catch a team bout of syphilis now and vomit your kidneys out. I officially no longer care who wins from here on in. Thank you, Habs.


I'm lead to believe Montreal/Islanders final is the nightmare of all Leafs fans. Make it so!

Guaranteed 1 gifted away ex-Oiler would win it. Petry or Ebs.

A Habs Cup win would be worth any degree of obnoxiousness from their fans just for the sight of Laffs fans vomiting blood. I'd say the same about VGK fans, but after this game they just shrugged and went back to their slot machines.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 June 2021 21:52]


"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

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"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788289 is a reply to message #788261 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 14:21



I still think the Habs are hot garbage, and are riding some luck and a great streak of play from Price, so I wouldn't model my team on them by any means, but they still have a lot more depth than the Oilers. That's damning on management of course.

I don't really believe that this Habs team was "built for the playoffs". I think they've definitely benefited from an environment where the NHL decides not to call anything, but even with that, if Price wasn't out of this world right now, they don't make it out of the first round. They played another crap team in round two and then Price single-handedly kept them in early in the series with Vegas.



Price is playing fantastic. But I found this interesting:

Quote:

Jonathan Willis
@JonathanWillis
The Montreal Canadiens finished second in the NHL during the regular season by 5v5 Corsi% (55%). Only Colorado had a better share of shot attempts at 5v5.


What's crazy is they are on this run without Tatar and Drouin, 2 pretty big parts of their top 6 going into the season.



Clean house or bust

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788294 is a reply to message #788289 ]
Fri, 25 June 2021 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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smyth260 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 22:58

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 14:21



I still think the Habs are hot garbage, and are riding some luck and a great streak of play from Price, so I wouldn't model my team on them by any means, but they still have a lot more depth than the Oilers. That's damning on management of course.

I don't really believe that this Habs team was "built for the playoffs". I think they've definitely benefited from an environment where the NHL decides not to call anything, but even with that, if Price wasn't out of this world right now, they don't make it out of the first round. They played another crap team in round two and then Price single-handedly kept them in early in the series with Vegas.



Price is playing fantastic. But I found this interesting:

Quote:

Jonathan Willis
@JonathanWillis
The Montreal Canadiens finished second in the NHL during the regular season by 5v5 Corsi% (55%). Only Colorado had a better share of shot attempts at 5v5.


What's crazy is they are on this run without Tatar and Drouin, 2 pretty big parts of their top 6 going into the season.


Staal and Caufield replace those guys pretty well though.

There were a bunch of Oilers scribes beating the drum from Thomas Tatar as a free agent pick-up earlier this summer...



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788306 is a reply to message #788294 ]
Fri, 25 June 2021 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 09:29

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 22:58

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 14:21



I still think the Habs are hot garbage, and are riding some luck and a great streak of play from Price, so I wouldn't model my team on them by any means, but they still have a lot more depth than the Oilers. That's damning on management of course.

I don't really believe that this Habs team was "built for the playoffs". I think they've definitely benefited from an environment where the NHL decides not to call anything, but even with that, if Price wasn't out of this world right now, they don't make it out of the first round. They played another crap team in round two and then Price single-handedly kept them in early in the series with Vegas.



Price is playing fantastic. But I found this interesting:

Quote:

Jonathan Willis
@JonathanWillis
The Montreal Canadiens finished second in the NHL during the regular season by 5v5 Corsi% (55%). Only Colorado had a better share of shot attempts at 5v5.


What's crazy is they are on this run without Tatar and Drouin, 2 pretty big parts of their top 6 going into the season.


Staal and Caufield replace those guys pretty well though.

There were a bunch of Oilers scribes beating the drum from Thomas Tatar as a free agent pick-up earlier this summer...


Hyman, Tatar.

Are we just targeting people based on Gene Principe pun potential?



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788230 is a reply to message #788215 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:36

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 00:18

I theorize that the NHL's position on refereeing comes down to the fact that both these series are close and headed to have 13 or 14 games in the semi-finals. They'll believe that if the penalties were all called, it would be more lopsided, and series would end sooner - which they don't think people want to see. They think game 7s are what people get most excited about, so why have it end early just because one team is more skilled?

I really get the vitriol against Kucherov and the Lightning, but it's pretty ridiculous that one of the league's star players can get injured with a blatant hard crosscheck, and the refs don't even call a minor penalty.



Not a theorist, but are you leaning towards lots of penalties in favour of Vegas tonight and TBay tomorrow to one, prolong the series and two, get Tampa into the Finals again?

The cynic in me says the NHL definitely want this to happen, but the realist tells me that people in general cannot keep a secret and if this were to be true, then someone would have let it slip.


I don't believe the NHL has a bias towards Tampa Bay, especially over New York. I think they just want more games and series that seem closer.

I do think that just as there's game management, the NHL officials are doing some series management too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Vegas suddenly gets more powerplays tonight so that there's dueling Game Sevens...



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788254 is a reply to message #788230 ]
Thu, 24 June 2021 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 10:51

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:36

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 00:18

I theorize that the NHL's position on refereeing comes down to the fact that both these series are close and headed to have 13 or 14 games in the semi-finals. They'll believe that if the penalties were all called, it would be more lopsided, and series would end sooner - which they don't think people want to see. They think game 7s are what people get most excited about, so why have it end early just because one team is more skilled?

I really get the vitriol against Kucherov and the Lightning, but it's pretty ridiculous that one of the league's star players can get injured with a blatant hard crosscheck, and the refs don't even call a minor penalty.



Not a theorist, but are you leaning towards lots of penalties in favour of Vegas tonight and TBay tomorrow to one, prolong the series and two, get Tampa into the Finals again?

The cynic in me says the NHL definitely want this to happen, but the realist tells me that people in general cannot keep a secret and if this were to be true, then someone would have let it slip.


I don't believe the NHL has a bias towards Tampa Bay, especially over New York. I think they just want more games and series that seem closer.

I do think that just as there's game management, the NHL officials are doing some series management too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Vegas suddenly gets more powerplays tonight so that there's dueling Game Sevens...



I totally believe that ref's utilize game management in the NHL. I got into a heated text war with Gregor who has a strong opinion that there is no such thing taking place.

He asked me if I had any reffing experience and admittedly it's limited. I reffed minor hockey, but game management was preached to officials from their supervisors. I have friends who ref and line in the WHL. They are told the same thing. They will say they are not intentionally looking for something to call, but they admitted that they know there will be an opportunity to call something late in every game if they so choose. That message has been subliminally engrained into them from a young age.

It's fun watching them squirm when you counter their statement "We do not want to change the outcome of a game by giving someone a PP in a close game", but point out that by not calling the penalty they are still affecting the way the game is played by not allowing a player to use their talent. Until the game is called in a robotic manner and followed by the rules as they are written, then things will never change. Game management is real and it is not going anywhere.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788262 is a reply to message #788254 ]
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 13:39

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 10:51

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 08:36

Adam wrote on Thu, 24 June 2021 00:18

I theorize that the NHL's position on refereeing comes down to the fact that both these series are close and headed to have 13 or 14 games in the semi-finals. They'll believe that if the penalties were all called, it would be more lopsided, and series would end sooner - which they don't think people want to see. They think game 7s are what people get most excited about, so why have it end early just because one team is more skilled?

I really get the vitriol against Kucherov and the Lightning, but it's pretty ridiculous that one of the league's star players can get injured with a blatant hard crosscheck, and the refs don't even call a minor penalty.



Not a theorist, but are you leaning towards lots of penalties in favour of Vegas tonight and TBay tomorrow to one, prolong the series and two, get Tampa into the Finals again?

The cynic in me says the NHL definitely want this to happen, but the realist tells me that people in general cannot keep a secret and if this were to be true, then someone would have let it slip.


I don't believe the NHL has a bias towards Tampa Bay, especially over New York. I think they just want more games and series that seem closer.

I do think that just as there's game management, the NHL officials are doing some series management too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Vegas suddenly gets more powerplays tonight so that there's dueling Game Sevens...



I totally believe that ref's utilize game management in the NHL. I got into a heated text war with Gregor who has a strong opinion that there is no such thing taking place.

He asked me if I had any reffing experience and admittedly it's limited. I reffed minor hockey, but game management was preached to officials from their supervisors. I have friends who ref and line in the WHL. They are told the same thing. They will say they are not intentionally looking for something to call, but they admitted that they know there will be an opportunity to call something late in every game if they so choose. That message has been subliminally engrained into them from a young age.

It's fun watching them squirm when you counter their statement "We do not want to change the outcome of a game by giving someone a PP in a close game", but point out that by not calling the penalty they are still affecting the way the game is played by not allowing a player to use their talent. Until the game is called in a robotic manner and followed by the rules as they are written, then things will never change. Game management is real and it is not going anywhere.



Gregor is a boot licker, I'd ignore him, he's not the brightest bulb in the sports media Christmas tree.
Anyone that's watched any NHL in their life know what's going on. Just for an example, compare NHL refs to the CHL, or IIHF refs you see in the WJHC, or WC's, calls are more consistent (they may call it more strict, but its more consistent than NHL). There are a greater number of CHL refs and they find a way to be more consistent, the IIHF refs come from different COUNTRIES and they find a way to be more consistent, the NHL has a smaller number of refs, more money and resources available, and they are the most inconsistent, which leads one to have to think its by design. If the CHL and IIHF refs can call a consistent game, then the NHL refs can, they have the ability, they just don't.

The only question open for debate is why?



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788280 is a reply to message #788262 ]
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Weird- MacLean just mentioned that the Habs had never won the Campbell Trophy (obviously because they had never played in the Western/Campbell Conference). So weird to think that if they pull off the win tonight, they will have basically won the only team trophy that their franchise has never had thanks to a pandemic.


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Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary have all made the Stanley Cup Final more recently than the last time the Maple Leafs won a playoff round



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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 16:59

Nick Bondi @nickbondi
Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary have all made the Stanley Cup Final more recently than the last time the Maple Leafs won a playoff round




That's funny, thanks for that!



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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Islanders decided to not show up for their game 7. Montreal gets to play the 98M team in the finals.


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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 21:27

Islanders decided to not show up for their game 7. Montreal gets to play the 98M team in the finals.

I actually think that the Isles would have been a better opponent for the Habs in the final, because their goaltending and defence are inferior to that of the Lightning. However, that of course is also why they lost this series in the end. Looks like the Lightning are winning a 2nd consecutive Cup. Then again, I was wrong about the Vegas Golden Showers, so we'll see.



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Ragnarok73 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 22:04

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 21:27

Islanders decided to not show up for their game 7. Montreal gets to play the 98M team in the finals.

I actually think that the Isles would have been a better opponent for the Habs in the final, because their goaltending and defence are inferior to that of the Lightning. However, that of course is also why they lost this series in the end. Looks like the Lightning are winning a 2nd consecutive Cup. Then again, I was wrong about the Vegas Golden Showers, so we'll see.


Shea Weber is gonna be giving Kuch's ribs a workout, that much is sure :)



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788319 is a reply to message #788318 ]
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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 22:06

Ragnarok73 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 22:04

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2021 21:27

Islanders decided to not show up for their game 7. Montreal gets to play the 98M team in the finals.

I actually think that the Isles would have been a better opponent for the Habs in the final, because their goaltending and defence are inferior to that of the Lightning. However, that of course is also why they lost this series in the end. Looks like the Lightning are winning a 2nd consecutive Cup. Then again, I was wrong about the Vegas Golden Showers, so we'll see.


Shea Weber is gonna be giving Kuch's ribs a workout, that much is sure :)

Yeah, give him a LEGITIMATE reason for being on LTIR.

The Habs' run reminds me so much of the Oil's run in 2006. It would be freaky if Price were to suffer an injury in Game 1 like Rolo did thanks to that moron Bergeron who I still haven't forgiven to this day.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788325 is a reply to message #788318 ]
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McDavid's agent speaking out about penalties and officiating, although not about the abuses McDavid has suffered. Slams Chris Lee, and points out that the NHL is encouraging game management by continuing to advance refs making these brutal misses.

https://www.tsn.ca/chris-lee-nhl-referee-officiating-jeff-ja ckson-1.1659575

Even the old school let-them-play guys like Spector are calling out the reffing as terrible this year.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/nhl-officials-losing-pl ot-missed-penalties-pile/

You have to think the NHL can't move Chris Lee to the Finals given his record over his last few games. I imagine he might have been anyhow, except that he's been repeatedly identified as the culprit.

I really don't like that the refs no longer have their names on their back. It makes it harder to realize when it's the same ref making terrible calls again and again. I'd like to see that changed, as well as finally having the NHL give up on having their refs manage the game. Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788326 is a reply to message #788325 ]
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Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.



"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788328 is a reply to message #788326 ]
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Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


If you're right, that's a completely flawed strategy. People aren't attracted to a sport they can't understand, and new viewers are going to struggle to comprehend the rules if they're called inconsistently. When even the analysts seem baffled, new viewers will be turned off.

As I've said on here many times, hockey can absolutely grow in the Southern US and really anywhere. It's generally a great game and fun to watch. However, it needs consistency, because no one spends a lot of time on sports that they don't get, and I don't know how you explain hooking or interference or roughing or crosschecking to a new fan watching this year's playoffs.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788337 is a reply to message #788328 ]
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Adam wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 09:07

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


If you're right, that's a completely flawed strategy. People aren't attracted to a sport they can't understand, and new viewers are going to struggle to comprehend the rules if they're called inconsistently. When even the analysts seem baffled, new viewers will be turned off.

I agree that it's a stupid idea. Back in 2018 in the VGK thread, I said that Bettman's drive to expand the NHL into the U.S. was bordering on insanity, and I stand behind that statement. What will his excuse be if and when the VGK come back down to earth and people stop going to games?

Adam wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 09:07

As I've said on here many times, hockey can absolutely grow in the Southern US and really anywhere. It's generally a great game and fun to watch. However, it needs consistency, because no one spends a lot of time on sports that they don't get, and I don't know how you explain hooking or interference or roughing or crosschecking to a new fan watching this year's playoffs.

I fully agree here too, but that would likely mean that expansion teams like the Kraken and Knights wouldn't be able to experience much success due to being filled with clutching-and-grabbing pluggers, and that would hurt fan support which in turn would hurt Bettman's agenda.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788338 is a reply to message #788328 ]
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Adam wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 08:07

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


If you're right, that's a completely flawed strategy. People aren't attracted to a sport they can't understand, and new viewers are going to struggle to comprehend the rules if they're called inconsistently. When even the analysts seem baffled, new viewers will be turned off.

As I've said on here many times, hockey can absolutely grow in the Southern US and really anywhere. It's generally a great game and fun to watch. However, it needs consistency, because no one spends a lot of time on sports that they don't get, and I don't know how you explain hooking or interference or roughing or crosschecking to a new fan watching this year's playoffs.



And this is without mentioning the biggest driver of ticket sales, merchandise sales etc. Ultimately, people want to watch stars.

When Michael Jordan came to any town in the NBA, tickets sold out in minutes. Any tournament that Tiger Woods opted out of saw a significant ratings drop. People want to watch stars do their thing.

It seems like a no brainer that the NHL should let their stars be stars, in the interest of sales and a better product. McDavid puts up a Gretzky like season, and they don’t seem interested in marketing that.

We aren’t asking for special treatment. Just let the stars do what they can do within the confines of the rules that are already written.

I’d love to see a league where it’s unacceptable to resort to a dirty trip when a defender gets beat, and breaks the best player’s ligaments . Ah whatever, hockey play.





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smyth260 wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 19:44

Adam wrote on Sun, 27 June 2021 08:07

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


If you're right, that's a completely flawed strategy. People aren't attracted to a sport they can't understand, and new viewers are going to struggle to comprehend the rules if they're called inconsistently. When even the analysts seem baffled, new viewers will be turned off.

As I've said on here many times, hockey can absolutely grow in the Southern US and really anywhere. It's generally a great game and fun to watch. However, it needs consistency, because no one spends a lot of time on sports that they don't get, and I don't know how you explain hooking or interference or roughing or crosschecking to a new fan watching this year's playoffs.



And this is without mentioning the biggest driver of ticket sales, merchandise sales etc. Ultimately, people want to watch stars.

When Michael Jordan came to any town in the NBA, tickets sold out in minutes. Any tournament that Tiger Woods opted out of saw a significant ratings drop. People want to watch stars do their thing.

It seems like a no brainer that the NHL should let their stars be stars, in the interest of sales and a better product. McDavid puts up a Gretzky like season, and they don’t seem interested in marketing that.

We aren’t asking for special treatment. Just let the stars do what they can do within the confines of the rules that are already written.

I’d love to see a league where it’s unacceptable to resort to a dirty trip when a defender gets beat, and breaks the best player’s ligaments . Ah whatever, hockey play.





Trying to kill the speed/skill in the game kind of coincides with all the troubles the NHL ran into with head injuries doesn't it? Could also just say it's the similar pattern of letting things go more and more, but the NHL did figure out what they needed to do to reset things and make the game more exciting again, and they just haven't bothered to try at all anymore. Powerplays/game are at historical lows, and the NHL doesn't want to do anything about it.

We had those Colin Campbell e-mails I thought where he discusses how the higher speed in the game was encouraging more of those desperation plays where someone sticks an elbow or leg out and wrecks someone because they were starting to adjust to not doing the classic interference and holding plays.

So, what I'm saying is, this is all the players fault for whining about brain damage :) Game might be a lot more exciting if the players didn't start that stuff. Although, maybe McDavid's career is already over because Gio gave him 3 concussions already. I'm of course ignoring how the NHL could also start giving stiff penalties immediately for dangerous desperation plays. That's too hard though.

[Updated on: Sun, 27 June 2021 19:57]


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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788345 is a reply to message #788326 ]
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Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


I remember when the league expanded from 21 teams, but I cannot remember if the new teams experienced any hardships while trying to build a fan base in the infancy. In retrospect teams like Florida, Ottawa, Phoenix and Atlanta struggle or failed to bring in fans, but a lot of that is due to the location of their rinks. Making fans drive away from city center is not a great strategy to fill seats.

Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Nashville never got special rules and they all have strong fan bases, with the majority of the new teams playing in untraditional markets. With the talent coming up in the NHL, this league needs to focus on promoting the skilled players. I only attend a few games a year and now because of McDavid I no longer cherry pick the games. Prior to Connor I made sure if I was spending $300 plus on a seat, I was seeing a superstar come to town. NHL needs to market their stars and filter the plugs. Bottom end roster players are a dime a dozen and not every team has even one star player.



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inverno76 wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 08:50

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


I remember when the league expanded from 21 teams, but I cannot remember if the new teams experienced any hardships while trying to build a fan base in the infancy. In retrospect teams like Florida, Ottawa, Phoenix and Atlanta struggle or failed to bring in fans, but a lot of that is due to the location of their rinks. Making fans drive away from city center is not a great strategy to fill seats.

Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Nashville never got special rules and they all have strong fan bases, with the majority of the new teams playing in untraditional markets. With the talent coming up in the NHL, this league needs to focus on promoting the skilled players. I only attend a few games a year and now because of McDavid I no longer cherry pick the games. Prior to Connor I made sure if I was spending $300 plus on a seat, I was seeing a superstar come to town. NHL needs to market their stars and filter the plugs. Bottom end roster players are a dime a dozen and not every team has even one star player.


The WHA teams who came in when expanding from 18-21 had pre-existing fan bases. Hell, Edmonton launched a boycott of Molson because the Habs were giant jerks about it. No one got screwed more than the WHA teams... in my opinion. I'm highly biased.

Expanding from 21 to 26 was Ottawa, Tampa, Florida, Anaheim, and San Jose. I remember a lot of hype about Ottawa, they did well at the Civic Center despite being awful. SJ had good attendance in the old Cow Palace despite being awful. No one cared about about Anaheim and Florida having poor attendance (they were both awful) because they were brought in to access Disney and Blockbuster's marketing genius. I don't remember anything about Tampa for some reason, but assume they were awful.

I seem to remember the 27-30 teams (Minny, CBJ, Nashville, and Atl Wininpeg) had the rules changed to make it harder for them. All four of them took forever to grow into decent teams, but they all had decent to good support in their market. Except Atlanta. I believe this was part of the reason VGK and Seattle got better expansion terms. No one wanted to make a team bad for 10 years after forking over the inflated expansion price.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788352 is a reply to message #788348 ]
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:25

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 08:50

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


I remember when the league expanded from 21 teams, but I cannot remember if the new teams experienced any hardships while trying to build a fan base in the infancy. In retrospect teams like Florida, Ottawa, Phoenix and Atlanta struggle or failed to bring in fans, but a lot of that is due to the location of their rinks. Making fans drive away from city center is not a great strategy to fill seats.

Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Nashville never got special rules and they all have strong fan bases, with the majority of the new teams playing in untraditional markets. With the talent coming up in the NHL, this league needs to focus on promoting the skilled players. I only attend a few games a year and now because of McDavid I no longer cherry pick the games. Prior to Connor I made sure if I was spending $300 plus on a seat, I was seeing a superstar come to town. NHL needs to market their stars and filter the plugs. Bottom end roster players are a dime a dozen and not every team has even one star player.


The WHA teams who came in when expanding from 18-21 had pre-existing fan bases. Hell, Edmonton launched a boycott of Molson because the Habs were giant jerks about it. No one got screwed more than the WHA teams... in my opinion. I'm highly biased.

Expanding from 21 to 26 was Ottawa, Tampa, Florida, Anaheim, and San Jose. I remember a lot of hype about Ottawa, they did well at the Civic Center despite being awful. SJ had good attendance in the old Cow Palace despite being awful. No one cared about about Anaheim and Florida having poor attendance (they were both awful) because they were brought in to access Disney and Blockbuster's marketing genius. I don't remember anything about Tampa for some reason, but assume they were awful.

I seem to remember the 27-30 teams (Minny, CBJ, Nashville, and Atl Wininpeg) had the rules changed to make it harder for them. All four of them took forever to grow into decent teams, but they all had decent to good support in their market. Except Atlanta. I believe this was part of the reason VGK and Seattle got better expansion terms. No one wanted to make a team bad for 10 years after forking over the inflated expansion price.


I don't really have an issue with the Vegas/Seattle expansion rules. It's only one player off every team, and you can protect so many skaters plus there are so many exemptions, that no one should really suffer. The odds of taking the 10th-15th best player off every team and then becoming a really good team right away seems pretty long anyhow.

I think there's two potential scenarios with Vegas:

1) They didn't mean to be good. They picked their motley crew of misfits, and it just worked out. Once they realized they had some really good players and kept winning, then it made sense to add to them, and they have done a good job at that too. They've been consistently in on trades for good useful players and manage to re-sign players and keep them - however, the plan originally was to tank and get draft picks.

Or 2) they moneypucked the hell out of things, had a smart analytics group who realized that other teams were undervaluing players like Marchessault and Karlsson and that given a chance, they could be extremely valuable performers.

At this point, I don't know which it is, but I'll be a little surprised if Ron Francis is able to do the same with the Kraken.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireChiarelli #FireBobbyNicks #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland #FireTippett

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788362 is a reply to message #788352 ]
Mon, 28 June 2021 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
Messages: 15109
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:25

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 08:50

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


I remember when the league expanded from 21 teams, but I cannot remember if the new teams experienced any hardships while trying to build a fan base in the infancy. In retrospect teams like Florida, Ottawa, Phoenix and Atlanta struggle or failed to bring in fans, but a lot of that is due to the location of their rinks. Making fans drive away from city center is not a great strategy to fill seats.

Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Nashville never got special rules and they all have strong fan bases, with the majority of the new teams playing in untraditional markets. With the talent coming up in the NHL, this league needs to focus on promoting the skilled players. I only attend a few games a year and now because of McDavid I no longer cherry pick the games. Prior to Connor I made sure if I was spending $300 plus on a seat, I was seeing a superstar come to town. NHL needs to market their stars and filter the plugs. Bottom end roster players are a dime a dozen and not every team has even one star player.


The WHA teams who came in when expanding from 18-21 had pre-existing fan bases. Hell, Edmonton launched a boycott of Molson because the Habs were giant jerks about it. No one got screwed more than the WHA teams... in my opinion. I'm highly biased.

Expanding from 21 to 26 was Ottawa, Tampa, Florida, Anaheim, and San Jose. I remember a lot of hype about Ottawa, they did well at the Civic Center despite being awful. SJ had good attendance in the old Cow Palace despite being awful. No one cared about about Anaheim and Florida having poor attendance (they were both awful) because they were brought in to access Disney and Blockbuster's marketing genius. I don't remember anything about Tampa for some reason, but assume they were awful.

I seem to remember the 27-30 teams (Minny, CBJ, Nashville, and Atl Wininpeg) had the rules changed to make it harder for them. All four of them took forever to grow into decent teams, but they all had decent to good support in their market. Except Atlanta. I believe this was part of the reason VGK and Seattle got better expansion terms. No one wanted to make a team bad for 10 years after forking over the inflated expansion price.


I don't really have an issue with the Vegas/Seattle expansion rules. It's only one player off every team, and you can protect so many skaters plus there are so many exemptions, that no one should really suffer. The odds of taking the 10th-15th best player off every team and then becoming a really good team right away seems pretty long anyhow.

I think there's two potential scenarios with Vegas:

1) They didn't mean to be good. They picked their motley crew of misfits, and it just worked out. Once they realized they had some really good players and kept winning, then it made sense to add to them, and they have done a good job at that too. They've been consistently in on trades for good useful players and manage to re-sign players and keep them - however, the plan originally was to tank and get draft picks.

Or 2) they moneypucked the hell out of things, had a smart analytics group who realized that other teams were undervaluing players like Marchessault and Karlsson and that given a chance, they could be extremely valuable performers.

At this point, I don't know which it is, but I'll be a little surprised if Ron Francis is able to do the same with the Kraken.

Actually I remember one thing clearly about Vegas' first season. They were given a butter soft schedule for the first month (the Oilers got the same thing when they opened up the new building). Two road games to start against bad teams followed by a long home stand against bad teams.

@Dal
@Az
Az
Det
Bos
Buf
StL
Chi
Col

They probably shouldn't have gone 8-1 over that span, but 6-3 or 5-4 wasn't unrealistic.



East of the Rockies and west of the rest.

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788370 is a reply to message #788362 ]
Mon, 28 June 2021 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
Messages: 3765
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 11:34

Adam wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:25

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 08:50

Ragnarok73 wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 17:14

Adam wrote on Sat, 26 June 2021 16:57

Just call penalties when they happen. Always. Be consistent. It's not that hard, and it isn't like we haven't seen them do it before.

As long as Bettman remains obsessed with growing the NHL in the U.S., this just ain't gonna happen any time soon, ever.


I remember when the league expanded from 21 teams, but I cannot remember if the new teams experienced any hardships while trying to build a fan base in the infancy. In retrospect teams like Florida, Ottawa, Phoenix and Atlanta struggle or failed to bring in fans, but a lot of that is due to the location of their rinks. Making fans drive away from city center is not a great strategy to fill seats.

Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Tampa Bay and Nashville never got special rules and they all have strong fan bases, with the majority of the new teams playing in untraditional markets. With the talent coming up in the NHL, this league needs to focus on promoting the skilled players. I only attend a few games a year and now because of McDavid I no longer cherry pick the games. Prior to Connor I made sure if I was spending $300 plus on a seat, I was seeing a superstar come to town. NHL needs to market their stars and filter the plugs. Bottom end roster players are a dime a dozen and not every team has even one star player.


The WHA teams who came in when expanding from 18-21 had pre-existing fan bases. Hell, Edmonton launched a boycott of Molson because the Habs were giant jerks about it. No one got screwed more than the WHA teams... in my opinion. I'm highly biased.

Expanding from 21 to 26 was Ottawa, Tampa, Florida, Anaheim, and San Jose. I remember a lot of hype about Ottawa, they did well at the Civic Center despite being awful. SJ had good attendance in the old Cow Palace despite being awful. No one cared about about Anaheim and Florida having poor attendance (they were both awful) because they were brought in to access Disney and Blockbuster's marketing genius. I don't remember anything about Tampa for some reason, but assume they were awful.

I seem to remember the 27-30 teams (Minny, CBJ, Nashville, and Atl Wininpeg) had the rules changed to make it harder for them. All four of them took forever to grow into decent teams, but they all had decent to good support in their market. Except Atlanta. I believe this was part of the reason VGK and Seattle got better expansion terms. No one wanted to make a team bad for 10 years after forking over the inflated expansion price.


I don't really have an issue with the Vegas/Seattle expansion rules. It's only one player off every team, and you can protect so many skaters plus there are so many exemptions, that no one should really suffer. The odds of taking the 10th-15th best player off every team and then becoming a really good team right away seems pretty long anyhow.

I think there's two potential scenarios with Vegas:

1) They didn't mean to be good. They picked their motley crew of misfits, and it just worked out. Once they realized they had some really good players and kept winning, then it made sense to add to them, and they have done a good job at that too. They've been consistently in on trades for good useful players and manage to re-sign players and keep them - however, the plan originally was to tank and get draft picks.

Or 2) they moneypucked the hell out of things, had a smart analytics group who realized that other teams were undervaluing players like Marchessault and Karlsson and that given a chance, they could be extremely valuable performers.

At this point, I don't know which it is, but I'll be a little surprised if Ron Francis is able to do the same with the Kraken.

Actually I remember one thing clearly about Vegas' first season. They were given a butter soft schedule for the first month (the Oilers got the same thing when they opened up the new building). Two road games to start against bad teams followed by a long home stand against bad teams.

@Dal
@Az
Az
Det
Bos
Buf
StL
Chi
Col

They probably shouldn't have gone 8-1 over that span, but 6-3 or 5-4 wasn't unrealistic.

It'll be difficult for the league to give Seattle anything but a soft schedule since they're in the Pacific. Whether they hit California or come north they should have more evenly matched games than true tests.



You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788395 is a reply to message #785046 ]
Mon, 28 June 2021 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
Messages: 8289
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

6 Cups

Simpson is such a NHL Inc. puppet.

McLean.. just shut up

There.. rant over.. for now :)

[Updated on: Mon, 28 June 2021 19:07]


McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788396 is a reply to message #785046 ]
Mon, 28 June 2021 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG  is currently offline NetBOG
Messages: 4332
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

4 Cups

Bieksa being a d-bag. Totally dismissing anybody that thinks that punching/crosschecking somebody without the puck should be a penalty.


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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788397 is a reply to message #788396 ]
Mon, 28 June 2021 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
Messages: 8289
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 18:13

Bieksa being a d-bag. Totally dismissing anybody that thinks that punching/crosschecking somebody without the puck should be a penalty.


Yeah Beaksa is trying to play the role, and he's coming off like a pretentious d-bag.
How come the media never get pundits that were actually good players go on those shows, its always the talentless plugs, which includes Hrudey... What these guys are thinking doesn't interest me much, I put the intermission on mute every time they come on now.



McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788399 is a reply to message #788397 ]
Tue, 29 June 2021 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
Messages: 4772
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

4 Cups

Pretty impressive looking at the Lightning roster and how they drafted over the years. Sure they got Stamkos and Hedman at 1 and 2, and Vasilevsky at 19, but other than that:

2007 Alex Killorn 3rd round (77 overall)
2011 Kucherov 2nd round (58 overall)
2011 Palat 7th round (208 overall)
2014 Point 3rd round (79th overall)
2015 Cirelli 3rd round (72nd overall)

Not to mention undrafted contributors Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson...

What's our last big hit beyond the 1st round? Jeff Petry in 2006? We have some solid looking guys in Jones, Bear, Benson, McLeod, and Savoie I suppose, but I don't see any Kucherov/Point level homeruns.





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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788424 is a reply to message #788399 ]
Tue, 29 June 2021 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
benv  is currently offline benv
Messages: 1035
Registered: May 2006
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Mike wrote on Tue, 29 June 2021 05:52

Pretty impressive looking at the Lightning roster and how they drafted over the years. Sure they got Stamkos and Hedman at 1 and 2, and Vasilevsky at 19, but other than that:

2007 Alex Killorn 3rd round (77 overall)
2011 Kucherov 2nd round (58 overall)
2011 Palat 7th round (208 overall)
2014 Point 3rd round (79th overall)
2015 Cirelli 3rd round (72nd overall)

Not to mention undrafted contributors Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson...

What's our last big hit beyond the 1st round? Jeff Petry in 2006? We have some solid looking guys in Jones, Bear, Benson, McLeod, and Savoie I suppose, but I don't see any Kucherov/Point level homeruns.






I would say the Oilers' top four non-1st round picks in their history came in their first two years of existence:

1979: Mark Messier (3rd round), Glenn Anderson (4th round).
1980: Jari Kurri (4th round), Andy Moog (7th round).

They started off setting a high bar they've never matched.



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788426 is a reply to message #788424 ]
Tue, 29 June 2021 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
welcometotheOC  is currently offline welcometotheOC
Messages: 1109
Registered: April 2010
Location: Also, sadly, Cowtown

1 Cup

benv wrote on Tue, 29 June 2021 10:35

Mike wrote on Tue, 29 June 2021 05:52

Pretty impressive looking at the Lightning roster and how they drafted over the years. Sure they got Stamkos and Hedman at 1 and 2, and Vasilevsky at 19, but other than that:

2007 Alex Killorn 3rd round (77 overall)
2011 Kucherov 2nd round (58 overall)
2011 Palat 7th round (208 overall)
2014 Point 3rd round (79th overall)
2015 Cirelli 3rd round (72nd overall)

Not to mention undrafted contributors Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson...

What's our last big hit beyond the 1st round? Jeff Petry in 2006? We have some solid looking guys in Jones, Bear, Benson, McLeod, and Savoie I suppose, but I don't see any Kucherov/Point level homeruns.






I would say the Oilers' top four non-1st round picks in their history came in their first two years of existence:

1979: Mark Messier (3rd round), Glenn Anderson (4th round).
1980: Jari Kurri (4th round), Andy Moog (7th round).

They started off setting a high bar they've never matched.


Yeah, we were so lucky to have that happen (as fans). It isn't really fair to compare either us or TB to those two years - those were just about the two best drafing years for any team, ever (20/20 hindsight of course).



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 Re: 2021 Playoffs Thread (OOT) [message #788451 is a reply to message #788424 ]
Tue, 29 June 2021 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 17656
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

benv wrote on Tue, 29 June 2021 10:35

Mike wrote on Tue, 29 June 2021 05:52

Pretty impressive looking at the Lightning roster and how they drafted over the years. Sure they got Stamkos and Hedman at 1 and 2, and Vasilevsky at 19, but other than that:

2007 Alex Killorn 3rd round (77 overall)
2011 Kucherov 2nd round (58 overall)
2011 Palat 7th round (208 overall)
2014 Point 3rd round (79th overall)
2015 Cirelli 3rd round (72nd overall)

Not to mention undrafted contributors Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson...

What's our last big hit beyond the 1st round? Jeff Petry in 2006? We have some solid looking guys in Jones, Bear, Benson, McLeod, and Savoie I suppose, but I don't see any Kucherov/Point level homeruns.




I would say the Oilers' top four non-1st round picks in their history came in their first two years of existence:

1979: Mark Messier (3rd round), Glenn Anderson (4th round).
1980: Jari Kurri (4th round), Andy Moog (7th round).

They started off setting a high bar they've never matched.


They rarely have matched the level of success on the first round picks as in those first three years either:

1979 #21 overall - Kevin Lowe
1980 #6 overall - Paul Coffey
1981 #8 overall - Grant Fuhr

The team also picked up Walt Poddubny (1980, 5th rd - 468 NHL games, 422 pts), Steve Smith (1981 6th rd - 804 GP, 375 pts) and Marc Habscheid (1981 6th rd - 345 GP 163 pts) in those drafts.

Barry Fraser may have mailed it in in his last few years, but he earned his pension with those first three drafts. I can't think of too many other times in history that a team has had that many home runs in three concurrent drafts.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireChiarelli #FireBobbyNicks #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland #FireTippett

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