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 More on Strome [message #699439]
Tue, 03 October 2017 09:17 Go to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Picked by Scott Cullen as one of his "Analytics Duds":

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/a-look-at-hockey-s-analytical-darli ngs-and-duds-1.874041

Quote:

The other winger on the list is Ryan Strome, acquired by Edmonton from the Islanders in June for Jordan Eberle. There was some contractual stuff in play as part of this swap, but the Oilers – thanks to the presence of Connor McDavid – are a legitimate contender in win-now status. The general consensus is that Strome can come in and reasonably replace Eberle’s production, and the Oilers will be no worse off for it.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure if it will shake out that way. For starters, Strome – despite being billed as an elite playmaker since his time with OHL’s Niagara IceDogs – hasn’t really produced at the NHL level. His power-play numbers amongst regular forwards in that environment are some of the lowest scoring rates the NHL has had to offer, with him getting credited for 2.5 points per-60 minutes of 5-on-4 time. (As a frame of reference, 10 NHLers beat that number at 5-on-5; 95 per cent of forwards on the power-play were better.)
So, what exactly is Strome, and how do the Oilers use him? He’s not a power-play weapon. And his scoring rates in general (despite some encouraging signs in 2014-15) haven’t played out the way you’d think for a guy seeing substantial ice time with John Tavares and Brock Nelson. For Strome and Edmonton, the bet is that a change in scenery will pay dividends. But right now, Strome looks like a low-end top-six option – a reasonably far cry from what Eberle has been for most of his career.


I think it could be a tough season for Ryan Strome. There's early signs to suggest that he's going to become the whipping boy of the coach, which in Edmonton usually leads to some portion of the fanbase very vocally writing you off shortly thereafter. And he's not going to get on the first PP unit here. The evidence offered above suggests he's not going to be a great help to the second unit either.

It's looking increasingly like he's going to be pencilled in at either third line center or third line right wing, and it doesn't look like McLellan's changed his system at all over the summer, which hasn't contributed to much winger success if they don't get to play with McDavid...




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#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan

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 Re: More on Strome [message #699441 is a reply to message #699439 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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When someone makes the case that Mark Fayne or a Cody Franson can be an effective every day NHL dman, I have a hard time buying into much that he says.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699442 is a reply to message #699439 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pseudoreality  is currently offline Pseudoreality
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If he doesn't produce this year, he'll have zero trade value ala Yak next summer.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699457 is a reply to message #699439 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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It is funny, all of the criticism's of Strome are the EXACT same issues I heard and read about him after the trade.
Sometimes I think Chia expects issues that are well documented disappear when he acquires a player. Maybe the Maroon trade makes him think that kind of drastic improvement will happen everytime. I remember him talking about untapped offensive potential in Larsson and that he was a true #1 defenseman. I like Adam's game but I dont think he will ever have much offensive impact. I forget his quotes on Reinhart but obviously he didnt become what Chia saw either.

I feel bad for Strome. If he performs to his exact career performance he will be slammed. Even if he improves and the Oilers fall short he is screwed. God forbid Eberle and the isles do better individually or as a team it wont end well for him.



Games left that I have to see Kris Russell in an Oilers jersey=398

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 Re: More on Strome [message #699459 is a reply to message #699457 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oilerfan79  is currently offline oilerfan79
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Can we please give the guy 20 games before declaring him a lost cause. I understand he cost a fan favorite in Eberle but the guy hasn't even played in a regular season game yet.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699460 is a reply to message #699459 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clutchlikeeberle  is currently offline clutchlikeeberle
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Thank you good sir! Best post I read. Let the man play some games before objectifying his year with the Oilers in a blink. Last playoffs everyone is hating on Eberle and now he is the lost prodigy.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699464 is a reply to message #699460 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LetsBawesome  is currently offline LetsBawesome
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I have to agree with this as well!!

I do believe past patterns can predict the future...however most people want to change to be a better version than the past shows. As a high end athlete you should want to push yourself to be better and lets see if Strome has that in him before we start to burry him.

We all need to remember he doesnt have to produce like Ebbs, he has to add to the way Ebbs played, take care of his zone be tough on the boards and drive to the hard areas....no toe drags !!

I think he will not out produce Ebbs but if he plays harder is not butter soft and helps the team succeed...that is how we judge him and all other acquisitions in the near future. We didnt trade for Strome to score at the same rate as Eberle.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699466 is a reply to message #699459 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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oilerfan79 wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 12:40

Can we please give the guy 20 games before declaring him a lost cause. I understand he cost a fan favorite in Eberle but the guy hasn't even played in a regular season game yet.


100% agree with this statement. I don't know a ton about Strome because I haven't seen many games but unfortunately Strome could do everything that Eberle doesn't do and severely lacks, could put up decent offensive numbers, could be a better overall fit for the Oilers and score the game winning goal to win the Cup but if Eberle out scores him which in all likelihood he will, there will be fans that will forever hate Strome and the trade.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699468 is a reply to message #699466 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 13:26

oilerfan79 wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 12:40

Can we please give the guy 20 games before declaring him a lost cause. I understand he cost a fan favorite in Eberle but the guy hasn't even played in a regular season game yet.


100% agree with this statement. I don't know a ton about Strome because I haven't seen many games but unfortunately Strome could do everything that Eberle doesn't do and severely lacks, could put up decent offensive numbers, could be a better overall fit for the Oilers and score the game winning goal to win the Cup but if Eberle out scores him which in all likelihood he will, there will be fans that will forever hate Strome and the trade.


I dont think any of us are running Strome out of town. I also dont hope he fails.
I am just voicing my concerns with how Chia seems to handle trading. When he has an asset he deems expendable he tends to trade for reclamation projects. He also, by almost all opinions, loses every trade he makes (at face value of course). I understand a trade doesnt happen in a vacuum and perhaps Hall and Eberle are addition by subtraction but he cant keep undervaluing his assets and overvaluing things like "untapped potential"
With every one of these trades that bring back a lower value than went out the door he males the window to win a cup or cups smaller.



Games left that I have to see Kris Russell in an Oilers jersey=398

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 Re: More on Strome [message #699472 is a reply to message #699468 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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PlusOne wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 13:26

oilerfan79 wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 12:40

Can we please give the guy 20 games before declaring him a lost cause. I understand he cost a fan favorite in Eberle but the guy hasn't even played in a regular season game yet.


100% agree with this statement. I don't know a ton about Strome because I haven't seen many games but unfortunately Strome could do everything that Eberle doesn't do and severely lacks, could put up decent offensive numbers, could be a better overall fit for the Oilers and score the game winning goal to win the Cup but if Eberle out scores him which in all likelihood he will, there will be fans that will forever hate Strome and the trade.


I dont think any of us are running Strome out of town. I also dont hope he fails.
I am just voicing my concerns with how Chia seems to handle trading. When he has an asset he deems expendable he tends to trade for reclamation projects. He also, by almost all opinions, loses every trade he makes (at face value of course). I understand a trade doesnt happen in a vacuum and perhaps Hall and Eberle are addition by subtraction but he cant keep undervaluing his assets and overvaluing things like "untapped potential"
With every one of these trades that bring back a lower value than went out the door he males the window to win a cup or cups smaller.

I believe that some segment of Oilers fans way overvalue their players. The Oilers for Hall got a dman that immediately stepped into their top pairing, did really well, filled a huge void and they now have a legit, really good top pairing in Klefbom and Larsson both of whom are in their prime and signed for dirt cheap. Larsson played 45 mins in the May 5th playoff game, a game in which they got screwed over. I don't know how anyone can still think the Oilers could have gotten more for Hall. But I have debated this trade I don't know how many times, I have lost count but if people want to still believe the Oilers didn't get enough that's fine.

For the Eberle trade, I believed Eberle's time had come. He was a good Oiler, he did some cool things but he was a frustrating player to watch on many a night. I personally don't think you win if Eberle is on your team making 6 mill. Eberle was on the TSN trade watch for a couple of years with no takers. I don't know what the offers for Eberle were, maybe the only offer was Strome. I believe he didn't show up for the playoffs and quit on his team when the games got tough as he was beyond bad in the playoffs and quite frankly cost them games. I have no clue how it will work out, Strome hasn't played yet. To play like he did last season and especially in the playoffs when the games got tough and everyone is watching was acceptable for the crap Oilers, the bar has been raised and its no longer acceptable anymore. Eberle had 2 seasons under the new coach and management to fix his game and play the right way. He didn't so it was time to move on and get what you can. I believe the Oilers management would be doing the team a disservice by keeping a guy like Eberle on the team for another year making that kind of money based on how he was last season and especially in the playoffs. Enough was enough. I don't expect you to agree with me but that is my opinion.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699478 is a reply to message #699472 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clutchlikeeberle  is currently offline clutchlikeeberle
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Also it is worth noting - I don't think PC had better offers and said " Ahhhh you know what.....I kind of want to take a flier rather then this trade that makes more sense"

The trade market is limited for a 50 pt, soft player, making 6 mill no less. People are not lining up at the door to get those guys.

This is coming from a guy who is a huge Ebs fan, dating back to Junior Days.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699485 is a reply to message #699472 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overdue  is currently offline overdue
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Eberle played pretty well in the softer games but proved he wasn't willing to do what it takes to win a cup. Strome is no Eberle skill wise but he can be a solid player for this team. We have enough big scorers now to make up for him being moved and saying goodbye to his over inflated contract.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699486 is a reply to message #699485 ]
Tue, 03 October 2017 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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overdue wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 20:32

Eberle played pretty well in the softer games but proved he wasn't willing to do what it takes to win a cup. Strome is no Eberle skill wise but he can be a solid player for this team. We have enough big scorers now to make up for him being moved and saying goodbye to his over inflated contract.


I'm curious - what wingers do you believe proved their worth in the Oilers brief playoff run last year?



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699495 is a reply to message #699486 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 03:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
clutchlikeeberle  is currently offline clutchlikeeberle
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None. Including Ebs. Who was making 6 mill? Ebs.

If I own a business and I need to layoff a worker. I got 4 workers who are all 'meh' ok workers but nothing special. I lay off the guy who makes the most.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699503 is a reply to message #699486 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 20:36

overdue wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 20:32

Eberle played pretty well in the softer games but proved he wasn't willing to do what it takes to win a cup. Strome is no Eberle skill wise but he can be a solid player for this team. We have enough big scorers now to make up for him being moved and saying goodbye to his over inflated contract.


I'm curious - what wingers do you believe proved their worth in the Oilers brief playoff run last year?

Maroon was pretty decent. 8 points in 13 games that is scoring way above what he did in the regular season.
Slep was pretty good with 3 goals considering he has a grand total of 52 NHL games and he was moved all over the line up. I would have liked to see the Lucic - Leon - Slep line from game 1 as I thought they were damn good when they got put together.
Caggulia was pretty good with 3 goals considering he has a grand total of 60 NHL games and he was moved all over the line up.
Kassian had 3 goals in a 4th line role and did what he does best.
Lucic didn't blow the doors off but had 6 pts in 13 games so not bad considering his linemates for a good chunk of the playoffs - Eberle and Nuge didn't piss a drop of offense.

Eberle supposedly was dying to get into the playoffs, he said that after every end of the season interview when the Oilers were garbage. He played 507 NHL games before he finally made the playoff so he should have been beyond fired up and looking to light things on fire. 2 assists in 13 games and a team worst -6 on top of being a disaster defensively. I don't think a player can be much worse.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699539 is a reply to message #699503 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 07:37


Eberle supposedly was dying to get into the playoffs, he said that after every end of the season interview when the Oilers were garbage. He played 507 NHL games before he finally made the playoff so he should have been beyond fired up and looking to light things on fire. 2 assists in 13 games and a team worst -6 on top of being a disaster defensively. I don't think a player can be much worse.


We've clearly debated the Eberle trade to death, but I've seen you make this statement a few times. Do you really believe that Eberle didn't perform well in the playoffs because he just didn't care? Like he's just an inherently lazy person that was lying the whole time about really wanting to make the playoffs? And that performance is somehow only tied to the player's level of caring. Like if he just wanted it more, Eberle should have been able to go out and score 14 goals in the playoffs?

I'm genuinely curious, because I'm not sure that we can just assume Eberle's (or anyone's) performance works that way. I think it's equally (and in many ways more) possible that Eberle didn't perform precisely because he had to wait so long and wanted it too much. There's tons of research to back this line of thinking. A chart of the ideal performance state is an inverted U, so performance is maximized when the state of arousal is somewhere in the middle. Too low or too high and performance begins to suffer. I don't even think you can really even watch him play and make those assumptions. Too high of an arousal state can easily lead to indecisiveness and confusion, which might make him look like he's constantly in the wrong spot or not trying hard enough.

And bottom line, even though I don't think he's as good of a player, I think the Oilers miss Eberle's production more this year than they missed Hall's last year, for a couple of reasons. One, they have not replaced Eberle with anyone as remotely as good as Lucic, despite his struggles last year. Two, at least with the Hall trade, they filled a position of real need with Larsson. With the Eberle trade, they basically just downgraded the position with maybe the potential of playing centre at certain points. But I think ideally, Strome is on the wing with McDavid, Drai and RNH taking the centre spots.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699541 is a reply to message #699539 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 12:42

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 07:37


Eberle supposedly was dying to get into the playoffs, he said that after every end of the season interview when the Oilers were garbage. He played 507 NHL games before he finally made the playoff so he should have been beyond fired up and looking to light things on fire. 2 assists in 13 games and a team worst -6 on top of being a disaster defensively. I don't think a player can be much worse.


We've clearly debated the Eberle trade to death, but I've seen you make this statement a few times. Do you really believe that Eberle didn't perform well in the playoffs because he just didn't care? Like he's just an inherently lazy person that was lying the whole time about really wanting to make the playoffs? And that performance is somehow only tied to the player's level of caring. Like if he just wanted it more, Eberle should have been able to go out and score 14 goals in the playoffs?

I'm genuinely curious, because I'm not sure that we can just assume Eberle's (or anyone's) performance works that way. I think it's equally (and in many ways more) possible that Eberle didn't perform precisely because he had to wait so long and wanted it too much. There's tons of research to back this line of thinking. A chart of the ideal performance state is an inverted U, so performance is maximized when the state of arousal is somewhere in the middle. Too low or too high and performance begins to suffer. I don't even think you can really even watch him play and make those assumptions. Too high of an arousal state can easily lead to indecisiveness and confusion, which might make him look like he's constantly in the wrong spot or not trying hard enough.

And bottom line, even though I don't think he's as good of a player, I think the Oilers miss Eberle's production more this year than they missed Hall's last year, for a couple of reasons. One, they have not replaced Eberle with anyone as remotely as good as Lucic, despite his struggles last year. Two, at least with the Hall trade, they filled a position of real need with Larsson. With the Eberle trade, they basically just downgraded the position with maybe the potential of playing centre at certain points. But I think ideally, Strome is on the wing with McDavid, Drai and RNH taking the centre spots.

I don't know Eberle the person so I am not arrogant enough to make the statement with 100% certainty that Eberle doesn't care so that is why he sucked in the playoffs. But the reason I am assuming that is I am trying to find out a reason why he was so bad.

Yes it was his first time in the playoff so maybe you can excuse some first game jitters. Maybe 2 games of jitters at the most but he had 507 NHL games of experience. So you can't tell me he had 13 games of jitters over a months time.

I know players, especially offensive players are big into confidence but he wasn't even generating a lot of good chances. Nuge couldn't piss a drop of offense but he was generating good chances, he just didn't bury them.

The biggest thing for me is in the playoffs everyone steps up their game some how. Everyone skates a little harder, if you are a physical guy you hit more, guys who never hit suddenly start hitting, guys who never block a shot, block shots. I saw Nuge who's a guy that doesn't hit anyone and who shys away from any kind pf physical contact hitting guys, I saw Nuge in scrums, Nuge putting gloves in faces, battling for pucks and not backing down. SO even though he wasn't scoring, he was still engaged. I didn't see Eberle doing that. I didn't see Eberle doing anything outside of his usual. In fact I saw Eberle at home, in his own zone with a chance to get the puck out, PULL UP and stop, let Getzlaf (I believe it was him) get the puck which resulted in a goal where Perry interfered with Talbot. Eberle refused to take a hit to make a play and it cost his team a goal.

NHLers play with ripped up ligament, broken bones and wire jaws in the playoffs. They put their body through hell. I heard no talk of Eberle being injured. He didn't have any kind of surgeries so what was his excuse for not showing up? Maybe his confidence was so shot he couldn't score. Fine, I will accept that but if he cared, what was his excuse for quitting on the play I described which was an inexcusable act or not skating hard or not back checking or doing SOMETHING outside of his comfort zone which is the norm in the playoffs? His buddy Nuge did, why didn't Eberle if he cared so much?



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699687 is a reply to message #699541 ]
Thu, 05 October 2017 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 12:12


Yes it was his first time in the playoff so maybe you can excuse some first game jitters. Maybe 2 games of jitters at the most but he had 507 NHL games of experience. So you can't tell me he had 13 games of jitters over a months time.

I know players, especially offensive players are big into confidence but he wasn't even generating a lot of good chances. Nuge couldn't piss a drop of offense but he was generating good chances, he just didn't bury them.

The biggest thing for me is in the playoffs everyone steps up their game some how. Everyone skates a little harder, if you are a physical guy you hit more, guys who never hit suddenly start hitting, guys who never block a shot, block shots. I saw Nuge who's a guy that doesn't hit anyone and who shys away from any kind pf physical contact hitting guys, I saw Nuge in scrums, Nuge putting gloves in faces, battling for pucks and not backing down. SO even though he wasn't scoring, he was still engaged. I didn't see Eberle doing that. I didn't see Eberle doing anything outside of his usual. In fact I saw Eberle at home, in his own zone with a chance to get the puck out, PULL UP and stop, let Getzlaf (I believe it was him) get the puck which resulted in a goal where Perry interfered with Talbot. Eberle refused to take a hit to make a play and it cost his team a goal.

NHLers play with ripped up ligament, broken bones and wire jaws in the playoffs. They put their body through hell. I heard no talk of Eberle being injured. He didn't have any kind of surgeries so what was his excuse for not showing up? Maybe his confidence was so shot he couldn't score. Fine, I will accept that but if he cared, what was his excuse for quitting on the play I described which was an inexcusable act or not skating hard or not back checking or doing SOMETHING outside of his comfort zone which is the norm in the playoffs? His buddy Nuge did, why didn't Eberle if he cared so much?


Fair enogh. I don't disagree that the Oilers needed Eberle to be better. I disagree as to why he wasn't effective. I've always liked Eberle as a player, so I hope that the Islanders make it back into the post-season and he has a chance to redeem himself.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699548 is a reply to message #699539 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oilerfan79  is currently offline oilerfan79
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What I think you may be missing is that management doesn't believe that they need Eberle's production to get into the playoffs and they really don't need his shying away from anything resembling contact once they are in the playoffs. Strome was brought in to offset some of Eberle's regular season production and play a more playoff calibre hockey in the playoffs. The play where Eberle pulled up in his own zone allowing Getzlaf to easily take the puck from him and score sealed his fate with the coaches and with the GM. You can't allow that play to happen in the playoffs. It would have been better for his future with the Oilers if Getzlaf had run over him and still scored but to shy away from the contact was inexcusable. I'm not going to say Eberle didn't care what I will say is Eberle didn't care enough.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699549 is a reply to message #699503 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 08:37

Adam wrote on Tue, 03 October 2017 20:36


I'm curious - what wingers do you believe proved their worth in the Oilers brief playoff run last year?

Maroon was pretty decent. 8 points in 13 games that is scoring way above what he did in the regular season.
Slep was pretty good with 3 goals considering he has a grand total of 52 NHL games and he was moved all over the line up. I would have liked to see the Lucic - Leon - Slep line from game 1 as I thought they were damn good when they got put together.
Caggulia was pretty good with 3 goals considering he has a grand total of 60 NHL games and he was moved all over the line up.
Kassian had 3 goals in a 4th line role and did what he does best.
Lucic didn't blow the doors off but had 6 pts in 13 games so not bad considering his linemates for a good chunk of the playoffs - Eberle and Nuge didn't piss a drop of offense.

Eberle supposedly was dying to get into the playoffs, he said that after every end of the season interview when the Oilers were garbage. He played 507 NHL games before he finally made the playoff so he should have been beyond fired up and looking to light things on fire. 2 assists in 13 games and a team worst -6 on top of being a disaster defensively. I don't think a player can be much worse.


I think I went through this exercise before, but it's worth looking at again. The Oilers at ES had serious challenges scoring in last year's post-season.

Draisaitl - 10 points
Maroon - 7 points
Larsson - 6 points
Klefbom - 5 points
McDavid - 4 points
Desharnais - 4 points
Russell - 4 points
Letestu - 3 points
Lucic - 3 points
Sekera - 3 points
Caggiula - 3 points
Slepyshev - 3 points
Benning - 2 points
Kassian - 2 points
Nurse - 2 points
Nugent-Hopkins - 1 point
Eberle - 1 point
Reinhart - 1 point

Across the board, there is no one but Draisaitl and Maroon scoring at even strength. Connor McDavid was being mugged constantly and the focus of all efforts to stop the team, so maybe his even strength performance is to be expected. But the rest of the team? For all the props you gave Lucic for outperforming his linemates, it's a pretty generous assessment there. He got three even strength assists and that's it.

At what point do you have to look at how the team is being coached if over two series there is so little production from the entire lineup? Especially knowing that the other team's entire game plan is to try to neutralize your top scorer (although maybe doing something to avoid line matches occasionally might have also helped with McDavid).

David Desharnais was the most effective even strength scorer outside of the top line for the Oilers, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that he was the straw stirring the drink for the team.

The story isn't just that Eberle couldn't produce in the post-season. The whole team didn't produce, and that speaks to a deeper issue than the one guy we moved out. RDOF, you've suggested that McLellan didn't want Eberle, but you've said the same argument now for Hall, Schultz, Pouliot too...let's assume for a second that you're right about that - if at some point your coach can't get what he needs to out of player after player, especially the offensive guys that you need to win you hockey games, then maybe he's not the right coach.

[Updated on: Wed, 04 October 2017 15:35]


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699551 is a reply to message #699549 ]
Wed, 04 October 2017 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oilerfan79  is currently offline oilerfan79
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I can't argue with you on this. He never seems to be able to out coach anyone. Hell even MacT could do that once in a while.


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699696 is a reply to message #699551 ]
Thu, 05 October 2017 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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oilerfan79 wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 15:03

I can't argue with you on this. He never seems to be able to out coach anyone. Hell even MacT could do that once in a while.


I think it's all about perspective, head over to CP and Gulutzan was "severely out coached" last night. Last year in the second round vs. Anaheim when it was clear McDavid/Draisaitl on the same line wasn't the most effective McLellan split them up and it worked pretty well.

Is he the best coach in the game? Probably not, but is he in the top half...I would say so. The Oilers had their best regular season last year since '86-'87 I believe and as much of that can be attributed to McDavid/Talbot and a healthy group you have to give some credit to the man behind the bench.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699706 is a reply to message #699696 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Gator21 wrote on Thu, 05 October 2017 21:20

oilerfan79 wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 15:03

I can't argue with you on this. He never seems to be able to out coach anyone. Hell even MacT could do that once in a while.


I think it's all about perspective, head over to CP and Gulutzan was "severely out coached" last night. Last year in the second round vs. Anaheim when it was clear McDavid/Draisaitl on the same line wasn't the most effective McLellan split them up and it worked pretty well.

Is he the best coach in the game? Probably not, but is he in the top half...I would say so. The Oilers had their best regular season last year since '86-'87 I believe and as much of that can be attributed to McDavid/Talbot and a healthy group you have to give some credit to the man behind the bench.


I think McLellan has been great at getting players to buy into defensive structure. I think his coaching history shows that his results are mainly decided by his top group of elite players. You have 85% of your team that is just out there trying to break even, and the balance is tipped by those top handful of guys. Can probably say that is the same for almost all teams, but I think it's just a little more extreme than usual with McLellan. I would not be surprised to see our middle 6 guys continue to put up near career low offensive numbers under him, but while still playing good defensively. Where that does hurt you is in the playoffs, where you do usually need some depth to step up, because in a 7 game series, your top guys can be figured out to some degree. SJ got burned by a lack of depth contributions year after year after year. We almost got burned by it, but Drai really stepped up on a 2nd line, but then things happened that shall not be mentioned again cry

I still think McLellan is a "good enough" coach, as long as you give him enough elite pieces that can tip that balance for him. Just going to keep holding out hope that he'll figure out how to squeeze more offense from that middle 6 group while he loads up the 1st line.



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-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


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 Re: More on Strome [message #699708 is a reply to message #699706 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 09:13

Gator21 wrote on Thu, 05 October 2017 21:20

oilerfan79 wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 15:03

I can't argue with you on this. He never seems to be able to out coach anyone. Hell even MacT could do that once in a while.


I think it's all about perspective, head over to CP and Gulutzan was "severely out coached" last night. Last year in the second round vs. Anaheim when it was clear McDavid/Draisaitl on the same line wasn't the most effective McLellan split them up and it worked pretty well.

Is he the best coach in the game? Probably not, but is he in the top half...I would say so. The Oilers had their best regular season last year since '86-'87 I believe and as much of that can be attributed to McDavid/Talbot and a healthy group you have to give some credit to the man behind the bench.


I think McLellan has been great at getting players to buy into defensive structure. I think his coaching history shows that his results are mainly decided by his top group of elite players. You have 85% of your team that is just out there trying to break even, and the balance is tipped by those top handful of guys. Can probably say that is the same for almost all teams, but I think it's just a little more extreme than usual with McLellan. I would not be surprised to see our middle 6 guys continue to put up near career low offensive numbers under him, but while still playing good defensively. Where that does hurt you is in the playoffs, where you do usually need some depth to step up, because in a 7 game series, your top guys can be figured out to some degree. SJ got burned by a lack of depth contributions year after year after year. We almost got burned by it, but Drai really stepped up on a 2nd line, but then things happened that shall not be mentioned again cry

I still think McLellan is a "good enough" coach, as long as you give him enough elite pieces that can tip that balance for him. Just going to keep holding out hope that he'll figure out how to squeeze more offense from that middle 6 group while he loads up the 1st line.


Kind of sucks that the Oilers traded one other depth piece (and an affordable one at that). It's a giant drop-off from Hall to Lucic, and only one of those players had the ability to grab a game by the throat. It's sad that Oilers fans never really got to see the whole group play together. McDavid's rookie season the whole team was plagued by injuries, and so you never had a healthy lineup with all of McDavid, Nuge, Hall, Eberle, and Draisaitl in it. You wonder how much damage that group could have done had it had a chance.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699710 is a reply to message #699708 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 09:23

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 09:13

Gator21 wrote on Thu, 05 October 2017 21:20

oilerfan79 wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 15:03

I can't argue with you on this. He never seems to be able to out coach anyone. Hell even MacT could do that once in a while.


I think it's all about perspective, head over to CP and Gulutzan was "severely out coached" last night. Last year in the second round vs. Anaheim when it was clear McDavid/Draisaitl on the same line wasn't the most effective McLellan split them up and it worked pretty well.

Is he the best coach in the game? Probably not, but is he in the top half...I would say so. The Oilers had their best regular season last year since '86-'87 I believe and as much of that can be attributed to McDavid/Talbot and a healthy group you have to give some credit to the man behind the bench.


I think McLellan has been great at getting players to buy into defensive structure. I think his coaching history shows that his results are mainly decided by his top group of elite players. You have 85% of your team that is just out there trying to break even, and the balance is tipped by those top handful of guys. Can probably say that is the same for almost all teams, but I think it's just a little more extreme than usual with McLellan. I would not be surprised to see our middle 6 guys continue to put up near career low offensive numbers under him, but while still playing good defensively. Where that does hurt you is in the playoffs, where you do usually need some depth to step up, because in a 7 game series, your top guys can be figured out to some degree. SJ got burned by a lack of depth contributions year after year after year. We almost got burned by it, but Drai really stepped up on a 2nd line, but then things happened that shall not be mentioned again cry

I still think McLellan is a "good enough" coach, as long as you give him enough elite pieces that can tip that balance for him. Just going to keep holding out hope that he'll figure out how to squeeze more offense from that middle 6 group while he loads up the 1st line.


Kind of sucks that the Oilers traded one other depth piece (and an affordable one at that). It's a giant drop-off from Hall to Lucic, and only one of those players had the ability to grab a game by the throat. It's sad that Oilers fans never really got to see the whole group play together. McDavid's rookie season the whole team was plagued by injuries, and so you never had a healthy lineup with all of McDavid, Nuge, Hall, Eberle, and Draisaitl in it. You wonder how much damage that group could have done had it had a chance.


Only got 30 games of it. And in that time, we were a 1 line team again. Hall went silent. Still had D that couldn't defend at all so we kept on losing. Worse record with McDavid/Drai/Ebs/Hall in the lineup than when McDavid was injured.

Still think getting Larsson was a very important move. McLellan badly needs guys that can defend well without the puck. His game plan lives and dies by having guys like Vlasic in his lineup. We don't have Sullivan that just wants the never ending attack. McLellan wants bottling up and counter punching (mainly just by his elite guys) with a lead.

Of course that leads to a discussion about if McLellan is the right coach again :) But, this team is now tailored to what McLellan probably feels is ideal, but I think we can expect to be sticking with him unless we end up with multiple years of disappointments.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: More on Strome [message #699717 is a reply to message #699710 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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When it comes to coaching. What coaches actually coach a ton of offense? The game is so structured now that coaches on purpose place a TON of emphasis on defense and shutting the team down. Every player has to be a "200 foot player" and if they aren't, they get crushed. Back in the Gretzky days, 200 ft players didn't exist. You might be lucky to have a couple of guys who sole job was defense but backchecking hard meant you might go a few feet into your own zone basically to wait for a pass. A team can blow out another team and what will the winning coach talk about. "Missed assignments, giving up too many chances." When coaches talk, they go on and on about structure, defense, limiting chances, stopping odd man rushes, 200 foot play. You rarely hear any coach talk about offense, maybe the power play but that's about it. Coaches don't coach to score the next goal they coach to stop goals.
It's not just the NHL, its all the way down in the lower ranks of hockey. Junior hockey coaches, coaches of KIDS spend so much time on defense when they should be working on skill development.

I personally don't think its an issue with McLellan, I think it's an issue with the entire game. Swap out McLellan and put in who ever, I don't think there is a lot of difference.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699718 is a reply to message #699717 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gator21  is currently offline Gator21
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 11:30

When it comes to coaching. What coaches actually coach a ton of offense? The game is so structured now that coaches on purpose place a TON of emphasis on defense and shutting the team down. Every player has to be a "200 foot player" and if they aren't, they get crushed. Back in the Gretzky days, 200 ft players didn't exist. You might be lucky to have a couple of guys who sole job was defense but backchecking hard meant you might go a few feet into your own zone basically to wait for a pass. A team can blow out another team and what will the winning coach talk about. "Missed assignments, giving up too many chances." When coaches talk, they go on and on about structure, defense, limiting chances, stopping odd man rushes, 200 foot play. You rarely hear any coach talk about offense, maybe the power play but that's about it. Coaches don't coach to score the next goal they coach to stop goals.
It's not just the NHL, its all the way down in the lower ranks of hockey. Junior hockey coaches, coaches of KIDS spend so much time on defense when they should be working on skill development.

I personally don't think its an issue with McLellan, I think it's an issue with the entire game. Swap out McLellan and put in who ever, I don't think there is a lot of difference.


Exactly, I don't necessarily think it's McLellan's spot to be a skills coach, it's on Chia to assemble guys who can score more if secondary scoring proves to be an issue throughout the season. Realistically what's McLellan gonna say "hey kid, score more" or "try this move out".

I mean he could change up the systems to sacrifice for offence but I think we all know how that goes. Nuge's offense, was on the decline well before McLellan stepped in, as was Eberle. Lucic put up his usual 20 goals/50 pts season. Cagguila is still developing into an everyday NHL player and we really haven't seen what Strome and Jokinen will do yet.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699719 is a reply to message #699718 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Gator21 wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 11:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 11:30

When it comes to coaching. What coaches actually coach a ton of offense? The game is so structured now that coaches on purpose place a TON of emphasis on defense and shutting the team down. Every player has to be a "200 foot player" and if they aren't, they get crushed. Back in the Gretzky days, 200 ft players didn't exist. You might be lucky to have a couple of guys who sole job was defense but backchecking hard meant you might go a few feet into your own zone basically to wait for a pass. A team can blow out another team and what will the winning coach talk about. "Missed assignments, giving up too many chances." When coaches talk, they go on and on about structure, defense, limiting chances, stopping odd man rushes, 200 foot play. You rarely hear any coach talk about offense, maybe the power play but that's about it. Coaches don't coach to score the next goal they coach to stop goals.
It's not just the NHL, its all the way down in the lower ranks of hockey. Junior hockey coaches, coaches of KIDS spend so much time on defense when they should be working on skill development.

I personally don't think its an issue with McLellan, I think it's an issue with the entire game. Swap out McLellan and put in who ever, I don't think there is a lot of difference.


Exactly, I don't necessarily think it's McLellan's spot to be a skills coach, it's on Chia to assemble guys who can score more if secondary scoring proves to be an issue throughout the season. Realistically what's McLellan gonna say "hey kid, score more" or "try this move out".

I mean he could change up the systems to sacrifice for offence but I think we all know how that goes. Nuge's offense, was on the decline well before McLellan stepped in, as was Eberle. Lucic put up his usual 20 goals/50 pts season. Cagguila is still developing into an everyday NHL player and we really haven't seen what Strome and Jokinen will do yet.

I don't think it has anything to do with the players, I think it is all to do with how the game is played and coached. Like I said, coaches don't coach to score the next goal, they coach to prevent it. Nuge is a great example. He has always been an offensive player, he was an offensive player early on in his NHL career but he recognized that he had to improve his defensive side so he did that by sacrificing offence. That has nothing to do with skill, that's coaching. His coaches required him to do that because that is how the game is played. In my opinion, who the coaches were really wouldn't have matter. If it was someone other than Renney or Eakins, they would ahve required Nuge to do exactly the same thing.

A good example. The Leafs just BOMBED the Jets 7-2. But every analyst that I have heard talk about that game, didn't talk about the Leafs scoring 7-2 as much as they talked about how for the first 15 mins of the game, the Jets were all over the Leafs, the Leafs gave up a lot of chances but Anderson bailed them out. So Babcock would have a lots of ammunition to rip his players because of their defense. NO praise for the offense, rip them for the defense.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699720 is a reply to message #699718 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Gator21 wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 11:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 11:30

When it comes to coaching. What coaches actually coach a ton of offense? The game is so structured now that coaches on purpose place a TON of emphasis on defense and shutting the team down. Every player has to be a "200 foot player" and if they aren't, they get crushed. Back in the Gretzky days, 200 ft players didn't exist. You might be lucky to have a couple of guys who sole job was defense but backchecking hard meant you might go a few feet into your own zone basically to wait for a pass. A team can blow out another team and what will the winning coach talk about. "Missed assignments, giving up too many chances." When coaches talk, they go on and on about structure, defense, limiting chances, stopping odd man rushes, 200 foot play. You rarely hear any coach talk about offense, maybe the power play but that's about it. Coaches don't coach to score the next goal they coach to stop goals.
It's not just the NHL, its all the way down in the lower ranks of hockey. Junior hockey coaches, coaches of KIDS spend so much time on defense when they should be working on skill development.

I personally don't think its an issue with McLellan, I think it's an issue with the entire game. Swap out McLellan and put in who ever, I don't think there is a lot of difference.


Exactly, I don't necessarily think it's McLellan's spot to be a skills coach, it's on Chia to assemble guys who can score more if secondary scoring proves to be an issue throughout the season. Realistically what's McLellan gonna say "hey kid, score more" or "try this move out".

I mean he could change up the systems to sacrifice for offence but I think we all know how that goes. Nuge's offense, was on the decline well before McLellan stepped in, as was Eberle. Lucic put up his usual 20 goals/50 pts season. Cagguila is still developing into an everyday NHL player and we really haven't seen what Strome and Jokinen will do yet.


Lucic took a pretty huge step back as a 5v5 player.

A coach isn't going to make people do things they're simply not capable of, for sure, but he can control the level of risk taking he allows, and he can make players do stupid things that stifle offense. An extreme example is with Eakins. He made guys shoot low percentage garbage shots just to get Corsi's. Idiotic, and if the players buy into it, it's going to trash their productivity. McLellan last year seemed to have Nuge/Ebs fully buying into endless dump and chase which killed their offence because he can never get the puck back, but they just kept on doing it. For some reason all year Lucic is trying to be a playmaker on the half wall and is constantly coughing the puck up. Where is the direction to change what he and his line mates are doing?

The only really consistent creators for us were the guys that require zero coaching. TO me, McDavid and Drai are coach-proof players. McLellan just lets those guys do their thing because he knows he thinks on a level below them. He just needs to try to pair them with the best complimentary players. I think coaches can do more than that for you though. Coaches can work on things to get production out of their below elite-tier players. Just like defensive hockey, you still need the coach giving good direction for how the 5 man unit needs to operate when they play offense, especially the guys that aren't elite. Just hasn't really happened for us yet 5v5 with McLellan.

[Updated on: Fri, 06 October 2017 12:24]


"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: More on Strome [message #699721 is a reply to message #699710 ]
Fri, 06 October 2017 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 06 October 2017 09:31


Only got 30 games of it. And in that time, we were a 1 line team again. Hall went silent. Still had D that couldn't defend at all so we kept on losing. Worse record with McDavid/Drai/Ebs/Hall in the lineup than when McDavid was injured.

Still think getting Larsson was a very important move. McLellan badly needs guys that can defend well without the puck. His game plan lives and dies by having guys like Vlasic in his lineup. We don't have Sullivan that just wants the never ending attack. McLellan wants bottling up and counter punching (mainly just by his elite guys) with a lead.

Of course that leads to a discussion about if McLellan is the right coach again :) But, this team is now tailored to what McLellan probably feels is ideal, but I think we can expect to be sticking with him unless we end up with multiple years of disappointments.


Never even had 30 games - Eberle was hurt to start the season (and Draisaitl on the farm), then McDavid got injured, then Nugent-Hopkins after that (twice). I'd guess that there were 5 or less games where all five were in the lineup.

Hall did go quiet, and I don't know if that's because of coaching - does the second line not have the leash to push? - or was it just a cold streak.

I think Larsson is an important piece too...Just wish we'd had a better GM who'd found a better way to acquire said piece.



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 Re: More on Strome [message #699747 is a reply to message #699721 ]
Sat, 07 October 2017 11:17 Go to previous message
Jakey  is currently offline Jakey
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Amazing to have to discuss this in a thread after one measly game into the season. Let’s talk after 25 games. Then we at least have some decent data to discuss about. Until then it is all fodder.


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