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Oilers » Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11)

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826776 is a reply to message #826775 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 14:36

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:16

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 13:41

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 13:33

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 13:24

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 13:07

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 12:28

I'll put it another way. If Bouchard takes a shot off the foot and he goes down the tunnel for a part of a period to shake it off, does that mean the Oilers should call over the ref and forfeit? What is the difference? Teams will lose a player for short spurts all the time and somehow survive. I am sure the Oilers would survive if Bouchard missed a couple of shifts to maybe get his attention that he has to spot the crap he's doing.

But we apparently will never agree. I don't see how benching Bouchard for a couple of shifts to get his attention is going to cripple the team for an entire game. Good gawd.

Again, it's not the entire game. You're asking for a few shifts at a point in the game when there are only 5 shifts remaining when there are no other options. You're complaining about being dealt a 15 in blackjack and asking for a 14... at a time when the coach needs a win or he's going to get fired.

If Bouchard gets hurt, you play with what you've got. Same as when McDavid gets hurt. But its silly to think the Oilers should make themselves worse. That being said, they would have saved a lot of money by skipping the game last night and just mailing the Canucks two points.

Well that was about as fun as banging my head against a concrete wall and the results are what I expected.

So your conclusion is you only try to correct the player from doing the same thing over and over again that is costing your team dearly when the the situation is most convenient. If a convenient situation doesn't arise, you do nothing, just keep letting it happen. Great idea. I am sure it will magically sort itself out.

Shrug. That's the reality of the situation. The best option often is changing nothing. You're asking a coach that's about to be fired to bench his best offensive option at the time he needs offense. I don't know why you think benching a guy for 5 minutes will have a major impact in Bouchard's play, speaking of magic.

The point is to try something different. Maybe sitting him for 3 or 4 shifts isn't the answer but what they are doing now clearly isn't working because it's the same mistake over and over again season after season.

You act like Bouchard has never been benched.

Hopefully he makes a mistake in the first period against San Jose with the Oilers up 4-1 so Woodcroft can really drive the point home Thursday. I'm sure he'll be a brand new player when the next guy takes over Sunday morning.

When has he been benched this season? I fully admit, I don't remember every shift or missed shift a player has in every game so if I missed him getting benched please let me know.

Here is his ice time by game.
24:41 - team high
24:52 - team high
17:58 (Nashville game)
19:56
20:13
18:18
20:17
19:49
25:21 - team high
23:28 - team high
23:13 - team high

He averages 15 seconds on the PK so anytime his minutes are "down" they tend to have taken a few more penalties.

So point out where he's been benched this season? Looks like he's averaging north of 20 mins no matter what he does.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826777 is a reply to message #826776 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 14:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-bouchard-reflect s-on-areas-for-improvement-one-day-after-benching/

Unless you're now arguing everything resets for Bouchard every season. Then there's no chance benching will work. My secondary point in all of this is your ideas of player punishment and motivation are hilariously obsolete. I'd say I want them to bench Bouchard just so you realize that does nothing to change a player, but I know you'd never notice the lesson.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826779 is a reply to message #826777 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 14:57

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:40

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But if there is no consequences then don't expect anything to change. I know what you will say next. It's someone else's fault.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826780 is a reply to message #826779 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 15:09

NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 892
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI

No Cups

Didn't bother watching the game as it was an 11pm start here.
I couldn't sleep though, so checked my phone & saw the score was 3-1 with us outshooting them 22-8. Figured "yep, another one of those" and rolled over & went back to trying to sleep.

I wish I had confidence that the goalie call up is going to help...I guess we have SJ next, so there's a chance we might get a win?

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826783 is a reply to message #826780 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 15:31

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 15:09

I just listened to a Mike Kelly from Sports logic on Gregor's show talk about goaltending. In the last 93 games, the Oilers have got average NHL goaltending in 35 games. When they get average goaltending, they win 83% of their games. That's insane.

I don't think the Oilers believe Pickard is the answer but my guess is they figure he can't be worse than Campbell.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826784 is a reply to message #826779 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 15:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:57

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:40

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But if there is no consequences then don't expect anything to change. I know what you will say next. It's someone else's fault.

The consequence is in the back of the net. The consequence got sent down to the minors today. Do you really believe Bouchard didn't realize he screwed up before the puck went in on that play? Other than satiating impotent rage, what do you expect to accomplish with benching Bouchard for 5 minutes like you suggested? "I really want to loaf back up the ice, but Woodcroft benched me for a shift three days before he got fired so I better hustle". Might as well throw the equipment in the snow and bag skate them. Your thoughts on motivation and punishment are hilariously antiquated. Straight from the 70s. The exact kind of thinking that let Lowe sewer the team for a quarter century.

What the Oilers need to do is open up opportunities to players who have earned them. If you want to incentivize defensive, give some cherry powerplay time to Kulak when he makes 4 good defensive reads against San Jose and let everyone know that's why. Believing the path to improvement is through managing with fear is laughable.

Like I said, I hope they bench him. Hell get his comeuppance for not trying hard enough. It won't change anything, but you'll feel better and that's what really matters.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826788 is a reply to message #826784 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 16:16

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 15:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:57

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 14:40

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But if there is no consequences then don't expect anything to change. I know what you will say next. It's someone else's fault.

Honestly. I am not sure Bouchard cares. I think he sees his job as scoring points and that's it. If you score lots of points, you get paid. On the Oilers, even when they are playing like crap, he will still score points and based on how Woody coaches and what he has said, Bouch will get his looks no matter how bad he is because they want goals. So he will rack up points on the Oilers and get a fat contract either from the Oilers or from someone else. He knows it. Defending isn't fun, it's hard work. But if you are more in it to get paid, points gets you money. Winning is what you need if you aren't a big point producer. So what's the incentive for him to defend which isn't very much fun when he can do what he likes and still get paid?

Mistakes happen. It's part of hockey. But when you make the same mistake again and again that tells me either you are stupid and don't realize what you are doing or you don't give a crap. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not stupid. So it comes down to not caring to change. This is just my opinion but I don't think winning is a big deal to him. He's a pro so of course he wants to win to a degree but like I said above, it doesn't trump being paid a lot.

In my opinion, if he truly wanted to win, you'd see change in his game by now. I am sure he has been shown again and again the mistakes he makes and what he needs to do to fix it. Yet game after game, he makes the same mistake. His mistake last night on the 4th goal. That's a needless, lazy defensively wise mistake that is solely for trying to score. It was an extremely high risk, very low chance of succeeding play that if it works, there are 3 Canucks on the wrong side of the puck and Bouchard can walk in and probably score. There is nothing TEAM about that. It's a stupid, selfish play. Once the mistake happens. If he truly cared about winning, you'd see him busting his ass back trying to make up for it. It didn't happen. He makes the slow, lazy pinch. Then does a slow turn then starts to skate. He doesn't try to take the man with his body as he is going by, or lunge out to hook or trip a guy. He let's him easily go by him. Ekholm hustled back, Leon hustled back. Skinner shoots out the rebound past Leon and it's the 3rd Canuck coming in. Bouchard was the closest guy to Hoglander. If he's hustling back, he picks up that guy.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826790 is a reply to message #826788 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 19:45

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Fans say many douchey things when criticizing teams, but some of the baseless personal attacks are beyond the pale. He’s just a lazy person! He’s stupid! He only cares about himself! He only cares about money!

I mean - if you’ve interacted a whole bunch with a person and you know they’re just not a smart person, that’s one thing. But most of this is just lashing out because you’re mad at someone for making a mistake.

Generally, I think the MacT comments about social media are pretty ridiculous but there are some kernels of truth there too. Its not great when people who’ve never met you and know nothing about you are trying to assassinate your character on the internet.

I completely agree with CrusaderPi in this discussion. While the less knowledgeable believe that benching players is a magic panacea which will automatically make them better or prove that they’re useless if they don’t immediately respond, that kind of thinking is completely archaic. There are about a million studies now on motivation showing that just giving random punishments isn’t the most impactful way to improve anyone on anything. And crapping on your players in public is probably even less impactful.

It’s not like players can’t see when they make mistakes. It’s not like they don’t want to win. And fan’s focus on errors causing goals is a huge mistake because it ignores 99% of the game when goals aren’t being scored. If coaches respond to just the high visibility plays to make punishments then they’re almost certainly going to make bad decisions.

It’s also pretty notable that fans and crappy media guys do always seem much more concerned about benching players they see as too soft or over-focussed on offence. Ekholm, Ceci and Desharnais all made glaring errors leading to goals against last night but all Spector and some others would like to talk about is Evan Bouchard.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826797 is a reply to message #826790 ]	Wed, 08 November 2023 10:10

g2k
Messages: 2670
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 19:45

I didn't expect Woody to call out anyone. Let's be clear on that, finally. I'm also not pining for him to get fired. Mostly because it's been a coaching carousel, and I certainly don't have any answers for a replacement. I just wish the man would grow a set. No, I'm not in the room, but I sense this guy coaches with fluffy kid gloves. This doesn't automatically mean I expect him to become a tyrant either, just to be clear.

You can infer I'm less knowledgeable, that's fine. But I noticed recently some "in game" circumstances meant #91 had to miss some ice time. Up to that point he was pretty disappointing in his play. He was pissed about the lack of ice time. He responded to it. So even though you state there are a million studies on motivation that state random punishment isn't the most impactful way to improve anyone on anything, as a parent and breathing human being, I'm willing to bet there are a million studies that counter your claim. Does it work for everyone in every situation? Of course not.

So yes, I was happy Spector called Woody out. Because he was thinking the same thing as many of us simpletons. But somehow this comment of mine has turned into Spector trying to get the coach to publicly poop on a player, when all that really occurred was the reporter called out the coach on his previous claims regarding the need for accountability. I honestly feel if it wasn't Spector that asked the question, this thread would have died Monday night.

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826738 is a reply to message #826712 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 07:26

philly boy
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2007
Location: E-Town

No Cups

The Oilers made the front page of the Guardian today lol

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/07/the-oilers-hav e-the-brilliant-connor-mcdavid-what-went-wrong

Have never seen a hockey article on the front page of the website, even after Stanley Cups

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #11) [message #826740 is a reply to message #826738 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 09:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I can understand to a degree how the Oilers can get so deflated.

You are dominating. I can't remember a period like the first where the Oilers were all over a team that much. You have the lead. I can't remember what the shots were but I was well over 10-2. The entire first half of the period was in the Canucks end. Demko is absolutely standing on his head. Probably stole 2-3 what should have been sure goals away from the Oilers by this point. Hughes throws a puck on the goal from a bad angle, goes off Desharnais's stick and in. So it's 1-1. The Canucks have been outclassed to that point by a lot and you are tied.

Then 2 mins later. I think the shots are like 19-3 by that point. Demkoby this point has probably taken 4 goals from you. He's been unreal. Canucks 4th line center comes down the slot not ideal. A small mistake on coverage. They happen. This isn't Matthews or one of the best goal scorers in the NHL, unleashing a rocket picking the smallest corner, this is a 4th line center. Fires an unscreened 30ft wrist shot. Hits Skinner in the body. Goes through him. Now if he had saved it, would it have been classified as a decent save? Sure. But the goalie at the other end has made probably 10 saves that were 3 times harder. That's a puck that has to be stopped 10 out of 10 times. He can't. So it's 19-4 in shots. As a team, you haven't really given up much and you are losing 2-1. Then you get a penalty. Shot from the point, hits Boeser in the body, drops straight down to his feet. he bangs it in.

You have outplayed the Canucks for the bulk of the period. The Canucks goalies is standing on his head. You are grossly out shooting them. Realistically, you haven't given up much in decent scoring chances. Your goalie can't make a remotely decent save and you are down 3-1. Tough to not be pretty disheartened.

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