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 Speculation » 2023 - The Summer of KenPages (6): [ «  <  1  2  3  4  5  6  >  »]
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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824326 is a reply to message #824323 ]
Thu, 15 June 2023 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Thu, 15 June 2023 13:29

Goose wrote on Thu, 15 June 2023 13:23

Pretty devastating exchange between Tyler Yaremchuk and Frank Seravelli about how, despite being a high revenue team and having one of the highest ticket prices in the league, the Oilers have one of the smallest front offices.

Honestly, could probably build 3 full analytics departments with what they are paying Nicholson. The Oilers are not serious about winning, that much is pretty clear.

https://twitter.com/OilersNation/status/1669088623751462913? s=20


I heard that comment from Ken Holland last week and I thought, that can't be right...they can't just not have a scout for the OHL, can they??? But we love the top-heavy look. We have three assistant GMs, and then we only have three professional scouts, and only two part-timers in the analytics department.

We do have the highest paid GM in the league in Holland, so maybe they thought he could do all the jobs?

Also - what's the going rate for Vice Chairs, special advisors (Coffey) and whatever the hell position Messier had/has?

The Oilers stopped being a hockey team several years ago. Their primary functions have been marketing first, real estate second, for at least as long as Katz has been running the team, probably longer. From all accounts they've done pretty well in these ventures. The hockey side of the business is a simple means to an end now.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 June 2023 13:51]

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824332 is a reply to message #824322 ]
Thu, 15 June 2023 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Goose wrote on Thu, 15 June 2023 13:23

Pretty devastating exchange between Tyler Yaremchuk and Frank Seravelli about how, despite being a high revenue team and having one of the highest ticket prices in the league, the Oilers have one of the smallest front offices.

Honestly, could probably build 3 full analytics departments with what they are paying Nicholson. The Oilers are not serious about winning, that much is pretty clear.

https://twitter.com/OilersNation/status/1669088623751462913? s=20


No org can match us in the amount of elite "gut feel" we have from former cup winners in management and as players though.

Actually, possibly lots of teams can, but still, we have the best quality of that gut feel.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824342 is a reply to message #824332 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Some insight in to his plans from the future from that Athletic interview with DNB. Holland loves to give that kid the goods. Sadly for us, the news is not usually great in those interviews:

On Steve Staios rumours:
Quote:

When I was in Detroit, Steve Yzerman left, Jim Nill left and Mike Babcock left for better opportunities. My feeling always has been, if you’ve got good people and they get an opportunity to go elsewhere, it’s hard to hold them back.

On the flip side, when you do have people leave, it allows other people to grow. Also, people from another organization want to come to you because they feel they can move ahead in this business.

With Steve, I don’t really know anything. There’s lots of speculation now that Andlauer has bought Ottawa and his relationship with Steve in Hamilton. I have not spoken to Steve about it. My focus is the offseason (for the Oilers).

Because Steve came in here late (last offseason), he did some player development for us. He pitched in in the OHL (scouting). But in key areas (for assistant GMs), pro scouting is Brad Holland, running Bakersfield is Keith Gretzky and administration (the cap) is Bill Scott. We’ve got to keep people in place.

My plan is to figure things out. We’ll see what the future brings. I’ve never really worried about that. There are lots of good people in the business. People move around. They come and they go.



On contending and making the team better:

Quote:

Well, you can always be pretty close and never win it. But to win it, you’ve got to be close, right?

My take is, if you want to win in the playoffs, you’ve got to win in the regular season. You’ve got to be in the playoffs on an annual basis. You’ve got to be in lots of playoff experiences. Vegas has been in the conference final four of the last six years. Certainly, you’ve watched the evolution of Tampa Bay and Colorado.

I can’t guarantee that it’s going to happen in Edmonton. I can’t guarantee that it’s going to happen anywhere. But the path, as I see it, is to try and build a really good team. You’ve probably got to be in the top quarter of the league. And you just don’t do it once.

You’ve got to stick with it. You can’t just blow up half the team. We’re in a salary-cap world. There’s contracts. There’s commitments.

We feel like we have a good team (based on) regular season statistics over the last 120 games. That’s not three or four years, but it’s a fairly significant period of time. When you look at the age of our team, we’re really in our window here. It’s another year or two.

We have cap challenges. We have to make some decisions. I’m not going to tell you that we can make the team better, but we’ve got to try to keep the team as good as we can. Maybe make it a wee bit different.


On adding another big piece:

Quote:

No chance.

I can count to 83.5. I’m not going to tell you I’m better at it than you are, but I can count to 83.5. When you look at what’s on the books, we know what we’re dealing with.

Now, we like our core once we made the move with Ekholm. What you see, too, is this is a team sport. You can wager on another $5 million player — well, we can’t; we don’t have any space — but all you’re doing if you do that is you’re thinning out the bottom part of the roster.

To do that, you have to have a whole bunch of draft picks and young players pushing through the system. I’ve obviously been spending draft picks. We’re trying to win. With Connor (McDavid) and Leon (Draisaitl) and how good they are and the age they are, we’ve been trying to maximize the window of opportunity.

So, no chance we can bring in another high-expense player.


On Bouchard negotiations:

Quote:

We’ve talked two or three times. We’ve got work to do. We’re challenged. We’ve got to find a solution.

It looks like the salary cap’s going to move next year. Then, I’d think it would start to go up like it was before — $3 million to $5 million every year. I’m going to my fifth year as the manager of the Oilers. The first year I was here, the cap was $81.5 million. Five years later, the cap is $83.5 million.

In that time, (Kailer) Yamamoto wants a raise, and (Jesse) Puljujarvi wants a raise. Bouchard wants a raise. (Ryan) McLeod wants a raise. Skinner wants a raise. (Darnell) Nurse wants a raise. We trade for Ekholm. We sign (Zach) Hyman. We re-sign Kane. Things are tight. Money is tight. It’s a salary-cap world.

We found a solution a year ago with McLeod on a one-year deal. I’ve got to find a deal that works for the Bouchard camp and works for the Oilers.


On team depth/free agency:


Quote:

Well, if you look at our team, there are five big forwards in the top six. Obviously, Yamamoto’s played a lot of time up in there. I do know that we have to move a player out just to get cap compliant.

Certainly, there’s the importance of having a bottom six as we saw last year. We’ve signed Derek Ryan. I am having conversations with (Mattias) Janmark. We’ve talked about Klim Kostin. We’ve got Dylan Holloway. I’ve got to go to camp and figure out Raphael Lavoie. But it’s important to build a bottom six that can check, kill some penalties, and maybe chip in with some offence.

We’re set in goal. I look at defence. Obviously, there’s Nurse, there’s (Cody) Ceci, there’s Ekholm and Bouch, and there’s (Brett) Kulak. Vinny Desharnais played really good in the regular season. He had some tough moments in the L.A. series, but he settled down and played pretty steady again in the Vegas series.

For guys like Stu Skinner and Vinny Desharnais — players going through the playoffs the first go-around — they’re learning moments.

In free agency, we’re not in on the $4 million, $5 million or $6 million players. I’m not even sure we’re in on the $2.5 million or $3 million players. It’ll be maybe a sixth or seventh defenceman. Obviously, we have (Philip) Broberg and Desharnais. I’ve got to figure out exactly what I’m doing with those two guys. I’ve got to sort out the bottom part of the forward roster.


On Broberg:

Quote:

I’ve been talking to Jay Woodcroft about him. I believe Jay Woodcroft, Dave Manson and I all think he has the potential to be a top-four guy. Now, saying all that, you’ve got to play. To play better, you’ve got to play. When you’ve got Darnell Nurse on the left side, and Ekholm, and Kulak, they’re pros. It’s a dilemma.

I don’t really have an answer for you right now. That’s what I’ve got to sort out in the next couple of weeks. But being in the seven hole, playing five minutes, I don’t know that that’s doing much for his development and growth as a player. He needs to play 15 to 20 minutes.

That’s the downside. The upside is it sounds like we’ve got a pretty good defence. Those aren’t bad problems. Those are good problems. Over 82 games, you probably need seven defencemen, and everybody gets their ice time. But he needs to get in the lineup every night. He needs to play every night and feel important. That’s how young people grow.

I feel really good about our left-side D. He can play right. I think he’s most comfortable on left. Broberg’s development and growth weighs on my mind on a regular basis.

...

All the questions you’re asking me are valid questions. I don’t have any answers for you right now. Like I said, it weighs on my mind. He’s just about to turn 22. He’s pretty young.

We’re in win-now mode. That’s why I traded a second (round pick) for Kulak and kept Kulak. He’s been everything we hoped he could be. We made the deal for Ekholm. We’re trying to bring in veteran defencemen because, come playoff time, we probably win with veteran defencemen over kids.

I’ve got to sort all that out.


On the draft:

Quote:

First off, we traded a fifth-round pick to the Rangers (on May 31) to get a player (Jayden Grubbe). He’s really a drafted player.

Nothing is going to happen with the sixth and the seventh. We’re going to use them. We’re planning on using the two. Does a deal come up where I put a two in a trade? Maybe. I’m not expecting that to happen. Does the phone ring and somebody want to move up to two and we move back a little bit and get an extra pick? That’s a possibility.

Tyler Wright (director of amateur scouting) and his people think there’s going to be somebody there at two that we’re going to like. They think it’s a pretty deep draft.


There's a whole lot to unpack here. I really don't like the confidence level of a GM who says "well, I can't guarantee we ever win." He seems super grouchy about the Staios stuff too.

He's pretty definitive in thinking that A) goaltending is fine and B) Skinner and Desharnais having bad playoffs is just good for their development. So so much for any hope that he's going to address the goalie position.

From there, the Broberg stuff is just weird. He's basically saying that he prefers Kulak here, since he thinks Broberg should be playing his off-wing. He expresses almost some frustration that he's not playing enough - which isn't great for the player's value because it underlines that his coach preferred playing older meh guys (including one who was playing atrociously in Desharnais) - which isn't going to help bolster his value if he's looking at trading him. Honestly, the whole exchange sounds exactly like he's thinking about dealing Broberg - which would be puzzling since he's cheap, mobile, big and can play both sides. I'm not sure what you'd get as a bottom pairing guy that would be better than that, and since we're not trading him for a big ticket guy, I can't see how dealing him would help the Oilers.

He also says almost expressly that they want to trade Yamamoto for cap space. Again - not doing anything to hide his hand isn't probably putting him in the best negotiating position. Pretty unclear what they're thinking for the 6th top six forward after that. Maybe hoping Holloway or Foegele can be that guy?

Also - expect a short bridge deal for Bouchard in an attempt to save money - he references that he did that with McLeod...

And as for anyone hoping that he was going to have a creative and productive summer, we have a whole lot of complaining about the cap and how hard it is since it hasn't gone up. He seems to have only planned for big jumps in the cap to help him out. That having failed, he's out of ideas on how to manage.

We do get a nice little story about his time in Detroit though, so everybody drink!

[Updated on: Fri, 16 June 2023 14:19]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824344 is a reply to message #824342 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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lol, yes I'm always inspired by people that start every comment about what they need to do with "I can't guarantee I will get the job done well".

Highest paid GM in the NHL? About to finish raking him $25M total of salary and his best move was Ekholm who was a middle pair D for years behind Josi and struggled this year to play with a rookie before he took off with Bouch (we are told Bouch wouldn't have accomplished anything without Ekholm of course).

One thing we can guarantee. Katz got fleeced again by the hockey canada crew. Lowe, Bobby and Holland probably collectively taking in at least $10M a year from Katz to fumble around and make money off one of the easiest to milk fan bases in the NHL.

[Updated on: Fri, 16 June 2023 14:58]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824351 is a reply to message #824344 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824352 is a reply to message #824351 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I don't take a lot of stock in what Holland says in interviews because I don't expect him to lay out what he is going to do for everyone to hear. I think he tries to make it seem like he is giving a lot of information without having to actually give you much actual insight into what they are doing. I don't expect him to go on and say I am trading this and this player and going to get this guy and sign him. That would be stupid in my opinion.

I also think it would be stupid and incredibly arrogant to come on and say "We are winning the cup next year, I already sent in plans to the City for the parade route." There is 31 other teams trying to win. Anything can happen. Boston had the best season on record and got bounced in the first round. Who saw either of that coming?

I am expecting the Oilers to make some moves. I think some will happen this offseason and some in the regular season. I never in a million years would have thought a player like Ekholm would be an Oiler. I bet if we found an interview from last year, Holland wouldn't have said he was going to get a big name guy like that but Ekholm is on the team and it was a hell of a trade. So we will see what happens.


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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824353 is a reply to message #824352 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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Ken Holland is the Keyser Söze of GM's?

I can get behind that.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824358 is a reply to message #824353 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:46

Ken Holland is the Keyser Söze of GM's?

I can get behind that.

I just keep hearing from all these rumor guys saying that the Oilers are asking about this guy and that guy. So it doesn't appear to me they are just hanging out slapping themselves on the back telling old glory day stories like some think they all because he does an interview that doesn't spell out their offseason plan in detail. I think it's a strong team that he's built. They get a save or 2 here and a call or goal or 2 more, they beat Vegas. So I have a hard time buying like some believe it's a bad team.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824360 is a reply to message #824358 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:05

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:46

Ken Holland is the Keyser Söze of GM's?

I can get behind that.

I just keep hearing from all these rumor guys saying that the Oilers are asking about this guy and that guy. So it doesn't appear to me they are just hanging out slapping themselves on the back telling old glory day stories like some think they all because he does an interview that doesn't spell out their offseason plan in detail. I think it's a strong team that he's built. They get a save or 2 here and a call or goal or 2 more, they beat Vegas. So I have a hard time buying like some believe it's a bad team.


Any team with McDavid and Draisaitl isn't a bad team.

They're just unfortunate enough to have a bad GM with an echo chamber and skeleton staff.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824354 is a reply to message #824351 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


Yeah, can't guarantee everything works out, I think everyone knows that already though. The need to constantly say "I can't guarantee ___" is a tell IMO about how confident you are, and it can also be to try to lower expectations.

Terrible interview, I agree. Inspires zero confidence, and maybe that's intentional. We can all be totally stunned when one of his moves works out, and he hit the mark a couple times this year with Kostin and Ekholm. And all the misses like Campbell and Ceci playing kinda like everyone expected when we got him ... well, I guess he DID say he can't guarantee things will work out icon_lol

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824357 is a reply to message #824351 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


The problem with Holland is that if you look at his past interviews, there's no artifice. He just says what he thinks, and then he tends to act on what he's said in these interviews. I don't think it occurs to him that he could bend the truth or that he could be strategic in how he positions his responses.

When he says the goaltending is set, I believe it. When he says he can't find a way to bring another impact player in, I take him at his word. When he says he's struggling to manage the cap and was hoping it would jump by $5MM a year like it used to, I think he really did anticipate that with every contract he signed in the past few years. He even says he thinks it'll go back to doing that again in the future!

When he suggests that he needs to trade someone for cap space, seconds after mentioning Yamamoto - and specifically suggesting he's the non big performer in the top six - well, when you see him dealing 4th and Yamamoto to someone for future considerations, think back to this interview.

When it's a 1-year deal for Bouchard setting him up for an even bigger payday next year? Well, he said it all here.

With regards to his lack of swagger - it's not like Nugent-Bowman asked him if he could guarantee a win. He actually said that losing to the Cup winner two years in a row - does that mean the Oilers are close? And Holland decided that he needed to pour some cold water on things with that tepid response. I think he's already thinking we might not win and that he doesn't really want to be blamed for it. I mean, if the cap had gone up $5MM per year then he'd have like $15-20MM more to play with and all the bad decisions wouldn't have mattered, so it's not really fair to blame him!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824362 is a reply to message #824357 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:03

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


The problem with Holland is that if you look at his past interviews, there's no artifice. He just says what he thinks, and then he tends to act on what he's said in these interviews. I don't think it occurs to him that he could bend the truth or that he could be strategic in how he positions his responses.

When he says the goaltending is set, I believe it. When he says he can't find a way to bring another impact player in, I take him at his word. When he says he's struggling to manage the cap and was hoping it would jump by $5MM a year like it used to, I think he really did anticipate that with every contract he signed in the past few years. He even says he thinks it'll go back to doing that again in the future!

When he suggests that he needs to trade someone for cap space, seconds after mentioning Yamamoto - and specifically suggesting he's the non big performer in the top six - well, when you see him dealing 4th and Yamamoto to someone for future considerations, think back to this interview.

When it's a 1-year deal for Bouchard setting him up for an even bigger payday next year? Well, he said it all here.

With regards to his lack of swagger - it's not like Nugent-Bowman asked him if he could guarantee a win. He actually said that losing to the Cup winner two years in a row - does that mean the Oilers are close? And Holland decided that he needed to pour some cold water on things with that tepid response. I think he's already thinking we might not win and that he doesn't really want to be blamed for it. I mean, if the cap had gone up $5MM per year then he'd have like $15-20MM more to play with and all the bad decisions wouldn't have mattered, so it's not really fair to blame him!

I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824367 is a reply to message #824362 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:22


I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.


Feel free to continue commenting on my posts. The arguments are always more entertaining than just everyone agreeing all the time, and you're often the perfect foil for me to better illustrate my points.

Why would Oscar Klefbom have signed the deal he did when he did? For those who forget, he signed a 7-year $29MM contract in September of 2015. He was just 22 and primed to breakout. He'd score 12 points in 30 games in an injury shortened season while still on his old deal, and then the year the contract kicked in, he was our best defenceman. He was only age 23 and the team returned to the Stanley Cup Playoffs for the first time in almost a millennium. His value had he signed a short-term deal would have been significantly higher and he was considered a bargain contract right up until he got injured and missed the last three seasons of his deal.

The fact is though, that hockey is a rough game and injuries happen. Klefbom locked in and while he may have been underpaid for some of those years as a result, he did get the security of the deal through the last seasons when he couldn't play.

If you want another example, think of the fictional wide receiver Rod Tidwell. He gambled on himself and signed a short-term deal. It worked out - he made some big plays and eventually they showed him the money. But think about that scene where he gets knocked out after making the one catch. If he doesn't get back up after that, if that's a major injury, then maybe he doesn't get ANY contract again. He's out of the sport just like that.

I think you're maybe light on what it takes to sign Bouchard and buy years of free agency from him. $6.5MM per is a best case scenario. I'm thinking it's more like seven or eight years at $7MM per. And I think the Oilers would do very well if they had him locked up at those numbers.

How do you make it work? Well, ideally you have a creative GM who's looking at every way he can bend and shape his cap to make the roster fit. I'd already have a good idea of who's banged up and might need to take some time off next fall, and I might be planning around them being away for a month or so to give some relief.

I'd be looking at the overpays on the roster and considering which of them are worth keeping and which might be worth moving on. Just a quick glance and I can see there's a bunch - Yamamoto, Foegele and Kane up front. Nurse, Ceci and Kulak on defence. Both goalies, especially Campbell.

I'm looking at who could potentially move and what I could get for them. Is there maybe a taker out there for Darnell Nurse, even at his contract? I think there could be, and maybe even someone you can con in to giving you something really valuable back. I was looking at that Ekman-Larsson trade today and the Coyotes got some bad contracts back but they also got 1st and 2nd round picks - and Ekman-Larsson was a much worse player than Nurse. There's a lot of dumb former player GMs just waiting to be taken advantage of and Nurse brings a lot of good elements.

I tell you, if I'm GM, I'm not simply looking at CapFriendly and seeing that I'm at $78MM and just throwing my arms in the air and saying "Well, I can count to $83.5, so we're pretty much pooched here!"

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824376 is a reply to message #824367 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 17:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:22


I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.


Feel free to continue commenting on my posts. The arguments are always more entertaining than just everyone agreeing all the time, and you're often the perfect foil for me to better illustrate my points.

Why would Oscar Klefbom have signed the deal he did when he did? For those who forget, he signed a 7-year $29MM contract in September of 2015. He was just 22 and primed to breakout. He'd score 12 points in 30 games in an injury shortened season while still on his old deal, and then the year the contract kicked in, he was our best defenceman. He was only age 23 and the team returned to the Stanley Cup Playoffs for the first time in almost a millennium. His value had he signed a short-term deal would have been significantly higher and he was considered a bargain contract right up until he got injured and missed the last three seasons of his deal.

The fact is though, that hockey is a rough game and injuries happen. Klefbom locked in and while he may have been underpaid for some of those years as a result, he did get the security of the deal through the last seasons when he couldn't play.

If you want another example, think of the fictional wide receiver Rod Tidwell. He gambled on himself and signed a short-term deal. It worked out - he made some big plays and eventually they showed him the money. But think about that scene where he gets knocked out after making the one catch. If he doesn't get back up after that, if that's a major injury, then maybe he doesn't get ANY contract again. He's out of the sport just like that.

I think you're maybe light on what it takes to sign Bouchard and buy years of free agency from him. $6.5MM per is a best case scenario. I'm thinking it's more like seven or eight years at $7MM per. And I think the Oilers would do very well if they had him locked up at those numbers.

How do you make it work? Well, ideally you have a creative GM who's looking at every way he can bend and shape his cap to make the roster fit. I'd already have a good idea of who's banged up and might need to take some time off next fall, and I might be planning around them being away for a month or so to give some relief.

I'd be looking at the overpays on the roster and considering which of them are worth keeping and which might be worth moving on. Just a quick glance and I can see there's a bunch - Yamamoto, Foegele and Kane up front. Nurse, Ceci and Kulak on defence. Both goalies, especially Campbell.

I'm looking at who could potentially move and what I could get for them. Is there maybe a taker out there for Darnell Nurse, even at his contract? I think there could be, and maybe even someone you can con in to giving you something really valuable back. I was looking at that Ekman-Larsson trade today and the Coyotes got some bad contracts back but they also got 1st and 2nd round picks - and Ekman-Larsson was a much worse player than Nurse. There's a lot of dumb former player GMs just waiting to be taken advantage of and Nurse brings a lot of good elements.

I tell you, if I'm GM, I'm not simply looking at CapFriendly and seeing that I'm at $78MM and just throwing my arms in the air and saying "Well, I can count to $83.5, so we're pretty much pooched here!"

I responded, then I decided after just to not bother.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824379 is a reply to message #824376 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 08:15


I responded, then I decided after just to not bother.


I'm glad to hear you've been swayed to my position.

I look forward to the next discussion!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824382 is a reply to message #824379 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 09:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 08:15


I responded, then I decided after just to not bother.


I'm glad to hear you've been swayed to my position.

I look forward to the next discussion!

Maybe the next signing is Nick Bjugstad. He's had two consecutive one year 900k contracts. Think the Oilers can get him for 2 years / 1.75?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824387 is a reply to message #824382 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 09:40

Adam wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 09:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 08:15


I responded, then I decided after just to not bother.


I'm glad to hear you've been swayed to my position.

I look forward to the next discussion!

Maybe the next signing is Nick Bjugstad. He's had two consecutive one year 900k contracts. Think the Oilers can get him for 2 years / 1.75?


Would be so nice to get a couple more of those done before the summer officially hits. Who wants to work all of July if you can have things wrapped up by the 5th or 6th? This is where all the multi-year contracts from prior years comes in handy!

Might have to make sure Bouchard's agent has his cell number though...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824385 is a reply to message #824379 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 09:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 08:15


I responded, then I decided after just to not bother.


I'm glad to hear you've been swayed to my position.



I have not but feel free to believe whatever you want.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824410 is a reply to message #824362 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve is currently offline Steve
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:22

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:03

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


The problem with Holland is that if you look at his past interviews, there's no artifice. He just says what he thinks, and then he tends to act on what he's said in these interviews. I don't think it occurs to him that he could bend the truth or that he could be strategic in how he positions his responses.

When he says the goaltending is set, I believe it. When he says he can't find a way to bring another impact player in, I take him at his word. When he says he's struggling to manage the cap and was hoping it would jump by $5MM a year like it used to, I think he really did anticipate that with every contract he signed in the past few years. He even says he thinks it'll go back to doing that again in the future!

When he suggests that he needs to trade someone for cap space, seconds after mentioning Yamamoto - and specifically suggesting he's the non big performer in the top six - well, when you see him dealing 4th and Yamamoto to someone for future considerations, think back to this interview.

When it's a 1-year deal for Bouchard setting him up for an even bigger payday next year? Well, he said it all here.

With regards to his lack of swagger - it's not like Nugent-Bowman asked him if he could guarantee a win. He actually said that losing to the Cup winner two years in a row - does that mean the Oilers are close? And Holland decided that he needed to pour some cold water on things with that tepid response. I think he's already thinking we might not win and that he doesn't really want to be blamed for it. I mean, if the cap had gone up $5MM per year then he'd have like $15-20MM more to play with and all the bad decisions wouldn't have mattered, so it's not really fair to blame him!

I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.


Everyone's risk tolerance is different. Some players (and their wives/family) are risk-averse and want to sign a long-term contract as soon as possible. The possibility of injury needs to be considered. For the average player coming from modest means, millions of dollars is not something to be gambled with willy nilly.

Klefbom and Nurse took different paths. Doesn't mean one is right or wrong for the player. For these particular players we know what works best for the team, but I digress.

It would be nice to sign Bouchard long-term now, but I don't see any easy way to do it with the cap situation.


"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824411 is a reply to message #824410 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Steve wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 10:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:22

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:03

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


The problem with Holland is that if you look at his past interviews, there's no artifice. He just says what he thinks, and then he tends to act on what he's said in these interviews. I don't think it occurs to him that he could bend the truth or that he could be strategic in how he positions his responses.

When he says the goaltending is set, I believe it. When he says he can't find a way to bring another impact player in, I take him at his word. When he says he's struggling to manage the cap and was hoping it would jump by $5MM a year like it used to, I think he really did anticipate that with every contract he signed in the past few years. He even says he thinks it'll go back to doing that again in the future!

When he suggests that he needs to trade someone for cap space, seconds after mentioning Yamamoto - and specifically suggesting he's the non big performer in the top six - well, when you see him dealing 4th and Yamamoto to someone for future considerations, think back to this interview.

When it's a 1-year deal for Bouchard setting him up for an even bigger payday next year? Well, he said it all here.

With regards to his lack of swagger - it's not like Nugent-Bowman asked him if he could guarantee a win. He actually said that losing to the Cup winner two years in a row - does that mean the Oilers are close? And Holland decided that he needed to pour some cold water on things with that tepid response. I think he's already thinking we might not win and that he doesn't really want to be blamed for it. I mean, if the cap had gone up $5MM per year then he'd have like $15-20MM more to play with and all the bad decisions wouldn't have mattered, so it's not really fair to blame him!

I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.


Everyone's risk tolerance is different. Some players (and their wives/family) are risk-averse and want to sign a long-term contract as soon as possible. The possibility of injury needs to be considered. For the average player coming from modest means, millions of dollars is not something to be gambled with willy nilly.

Klefbom and Nurse took different paths. Doesn't mean one is right or wrong for the player. For these particular players we know what works best for the team, but I digress.

It would be nice to sign Bouchard long-term now, but I don't see any easy way to do it with the cap situation.


Like I said. Even if the Oilers had cap space, I don't see him accepting a deal that starts with a 6 when he knows in a season if things go like it should, he can easily get something that starts with a 7, maybe higher.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824428 is a reply to message #824411 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve is currently offline Steve
Messages: 106
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 09:55

Steve wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 10:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:22

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 16:03

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 15:30

His honesty is refreshing and disturbing. He is not wrong. He can put the best on-ice product together but he cannot guarantee wins or championships. That is the truth and look no further than this year. The first and second round eliminated most of the pre tournament Cup contenders.

Holland is a terrible interview. I do not put a lot of stock into these articles. If I did, I would lose my mind and give up on hockey. Fortunately, in my eyes, I have seen this team take sizeable steps forward in each of the last 3 years (small slip this year, but I felt this team was better than last despite the no WCF).

Visually we are a better team with warts. We have the two most entertaining players in the league, a solid nucleus around them, a middling defense and a questionable goaltending tandem with upside (not guaranteed).

I choose t not believe the sky is not falling and hopefully Holland's replacement will interview better, whether it be his boy, Staios or anyone not name Chiarelli.


The problem with Holland is that if you look at his past interviews, there's no artifice. He just says what he thinks, and then he tends to act on what he's said in these interviews. I don't think it occurs to him that he could bend the truth or that he could be strategic in how he positions his responses.

When he says the goaltending is set, I believe it. When he says he can't find a way to bring another impact player in, I take him at his word. When he says he's struggling to manage the cap and was hoping it would jump by $5MM a year like it used to, I think he really did anticipate that with every contract he signed in the past few years. He even says he thinks it'll go back to doing that again in the future!

When he suggests that he needs to trade someone for cap space, seconds after mentioning Yamamoto - and specifically suggesting he's the non big performer in the top six - well, when you see him dealing 4th and Yamamoto to someone for future considerations, think back to this interview.

When it's a 1-year deal for Bouchard setting him up for an even bigger payday next year? Well, he said it all here.

With regards to his lack of swagger - it's not like Nugent-Bowman asked him if he could guarantee a win. He actually said that losing to the Cup winner two years in a row - does that mean the Oilers are close? And Holland decided that he needed to pour some cold water on things with that tepid response. I think he's already thinking we might not win and that he doesn't really want to be blamed for it. I mean, if the cap had gone up $5MM per year then he'd have like $15-20MM more to play with and all the bad decisions wouldn't have mattered, so it's not really fair to blame him!

I am trying not to comment on your stuff much anymore because it just ends up in being an argument so it's pointless to me but in regards to Bouchard, explain to me what you think should happen and why Bouchard should do that?

I know most including myself would LOVE to see Bouchard sign a nice long term deal at a nice low number because the likelihood he outperforms that due to points is very high. Please spare me your rant about Oilers management, I have heard it 100's of times. You are a smart guy so surely you must know that a player has to agree to the contract. You can't just sign him to whatever the hell you want and he has no say.

So even if the Oilers have cap space to sign him for 6x6 or 6X6.5, unless the Oilers are throwing some ridiculous number at him right now, why would any sane player or his agent want to agree to a long term deal coming off the season he had? His first 55-60 games weren't that great then in the last 20 when Ekholm came, he exploded then had a great playoff. He ended up with 8 goals, 40 pts. The season before he had 12 goals, 43 pts. So he was slightly down this year. I live in reality. So why on earth would a Bouchard sign right now when he knows this coming season he will be the #1 offensive dman on the highest scoring team in the NHL in the Oilers, he will be the undisputed #1 PP QB on a historic PP. So 60 pts min next year is probably a lock. So if you sign a contract for 1 yr at whatever. Say 3 mill which is double his salary when you include bonuses, you play well, rack up your 60+ pts, maybe have a ring on your hand, you are going to get paid way more. PLUS the cap is set to shoot up A TON!

For the Oilers, I get it. Sign long term right now, save them money. I am all for it. For Bouchard, unless the Oilers are giving him 7 or 8, he will LOSE money signing long term right now so it makes absolutely zero sense for him to do it.


Everyone's risk tolerance is different. Some players (and their wives/family) are risk-averse and want to sign a long-term contract as soon as possible. The possibility of injury needs to be considered. For the average player coming from modest means, millions of dollars is not something to be gambled with willy nilly.

Klefbom and Nurse took different paths. Doesn't mean one is right or wrong for the player. For these particular players we know what works best for the team, but I digress.

It would be nice to sign Bouchard long-term now, but I don't see any easy way to do it with the cap situation.


Like I said. Even if the Oilers had cap space, I don't see him accepting a deal that starts with a 6 when he knows in a season if things go like it should, he can easily get something that starts with a 7, maybe higher.


Are there people saying he would sign something that starts with a 6? Honest question, I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to listening to Oilers faithful. I'm not sure where you are getting that number, which seems woefully low. People need to adjust their expectations to be in line with other star players. The trend in the NHL is to overpay stars and grind the rest for pennies (so to speak). Bouchard will have star numbers on this powerplay. He will be very expensive.

A long-term deal now likely starts with a 7 or 8. That's not ridiculous. I think he is worth it, but there is no cap space for it. If he waits it could go to $10-11M+ with the amount of points he will get.


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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824430 is a reply to message #824428 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Steve wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 14:20


Are there people saying he would sign something that starts with a 6? Honest question, I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to listening to Oilers faithful. I'm not sure where you are getting that number, which seems woefully low. People need to adjust their expectations to be in line with other star players. The trend in the NHL is to overpay stars and grind the rest for pennies (so to speak). Bouchard will have star numbers on this powerplay. He will be very expensive.

A long-term deal now likely starts with a 7 or 8. That's not ridiculous. I think he is worth it, but there is no cap space for it. If he waits it could go to $10-11M+ with the amount of points he will get.



This 100%. A bargain deal is Bouchard for $56MM for the next 8 years. It could still be a good deal even at $64MM for 8 years.

To do it though would require a level of cap creativity that we have seen from other teams, but never the Oilers.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824451 is a reply to message #824430 ]
Wed, 21 June 2023 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 13:32

Steve wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 14:20


Are there people saying he would sign something that starts with a 6? Honest question, I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to listening to Oilers faithful. I'm not sure where you are getting that number, which seems woefully low. People need to adjust their expectations to be in line with other star players. The trend in the NHL is to overpay stars and grind the rest for pennies (so to speak). Bouchard will have star numbers on this powerplay. He will be very expensive.

A long-term deal now likely starts with a 7 or 8. That's not ridiculous. I think he is worth it, but there is no cap space for it. If he waits it could go to $10-11M+ with the amount of points he will get.



This 100%. A bargain deal is Bouchard for $56MM for the next 8 years. It could still be a good deal even at $64MM for 8 years.

To do it though would require a level of cap creativity that we have seen from other teams, but never the Oilers.


Is there any GM that could take the current situation and find a way to pay Bouchard $7-$8M next season? I think that takes more than creativity. It would also require multiple favours from other GMs. I'm not seeing it.

I think it would take replacing Nurse with an equivalent player for at least $3M less. Good luck.


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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824361 is a reply to message #824342 ]
Fri, 16 June 2023 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Fri, 16 June 2023 14:18


And as for anyone hoping that he was going to have a creative and productive summer, we have a whole lot of complaining about the cap and how hard it is since it hasn't gone up. He seems to have only planned for big jumps in the cap to help him out. That having failed, he's out of ideas on how to manage.


This is what frustrates me. It's his own making. He's the one who put them in this cap position.

Anyone can get paid peanuts to complain about how hard it is. He's getting $5M to find creative solutions. Get at it.

Honestly, not too much there that gives me lots of optimism, and certainly feels like he is mailing it in before the off-season even begins.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824399 is a reply to message #824110 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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FYI, Seravalli said today he thinks Oilers have a trade in place for Yamo that will not require retention.. saves the buyout cost if true.. small amount but it will all count by the trade deadline.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824400 is a reply to message #824399 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 17:15

FYI, Seravalli said today he thinks Oilers have a trade in place for Yamo that will not require retention.. saves the buyout cost if true.. small amount but it will all count by the trade deadline.


Incoming 30 goal season for Yams. Because Oilers

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824401 is a reply to message #824400 ]
Mon, 19 June 2023 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 18:53

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 17:15

FYI, Seravalli said today he thinks Oilers have a trade in place for Yamo that will not require retention.. saves the buyout cost if true.. small amount but it will all count by the trade deadline.


Incoming 30 goal season for Yams. Because Oilers


40.. icon_nod

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824402 is a reply to message #824399 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 08:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 17:15

FYI, Seravalli said today he thinks Oilers have a trade in place for Yamo that will not require retention.. saves the buyout cost if true.. small amount but it will all count by the trade deadline.

I have to think it's teams that need to get to the floor and maybe aren't too concerned about winning.

Hawks come to mind. Bedard is coming in and if you look at their team right now, there might be 4-5 legit, everyday NHLers.

Yotes would be another.

You give the Oilers probably a mid range pick, mostly for his 3.1 mill contract. He's an NHLer, just an overpaid 3rd liner with injury problems. Then if it doesn't work out, you don't qualify him.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824403 is a reply to message #824402 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 08:23

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 June 2023 17:15

FYI, Seravalli said today he thinks Oilers have a trade in place for Yamo that will not require retention.. saves the buyout cost if true.. small amount but it will all count by the trade deadline.

I have to think it's teams that need to get to the floor and maybe aren't too concerned about winning.

Hawks come to mind. Bedard is coming in and if you look at their team right now, there might be 4-5 legit, everyday NHLers.

Yotes would be another.

You give the Oilers probably a mid range pick, mostly for his 3.1 mill contract. He's an NHLer, just an overpaid 3rd liner with injury problems. Then if it doesn't work out, you don't qualify him.


Given that it's Ken Holland negotiating it, and given that he has already made it clear what he's hoping to do, I'd be thrilled if we got a mid-round pick back. I think it's more likely that we gave away a mid-round pick (likely in 2024) in order to flush Yamamoto.

Maybe though he's delaying on pulling the trigger to see if there's a better deal out there. One can only hope, I guess.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824417 is a reply to message #824403 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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remember, trading away Barrie (who at the time had 43 pts in 61 games) cost Reid Schaefer, a 1st and a 4th to get Ekholm and a 6th...
I REALLY like Ekholm. I still think Nashville won that trade.
Likely Yamamoto and a 2nd for a 2nd and conditional 5th.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824419 is a reply to message #824417 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 12:55

remember, trading away Barrie (who at the time had 43 pts in 61 games) cost Reid Schaefer, a 1st and a 4th to get Ekholm and a 6th...
I REALLY like Ekholm. I still think Nashville won that trade.
Likely Yamamoto and a 2nd for a 2nd and conditional 5th.

Seravalli was just on the only sports show in Edmonton now. Oilers now and he was pretty sure the Oilers could easily trade Yamo and it won't cost them anything.

I don't see how the Ekholm trade isn't a homerun for the Oilers. They got the dman this team badly needed plus it opened up a spot for Bouchard to take a big step which I don't think happens if Barrie is still here. So I see it as them getting 2 top4 dmen for that package.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 June 2023 15:20]

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824427 is a reply to message #824419 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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More like a run scored. We paid a lot for him.
Again, I really like him, and completely agree he's what our team needed. You can't argue that we paid out the nose. Effectively Barrie, one of the top offensively producing d-men, and 2 firsts.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824438 is a reply to message #824427 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 13:59

More like a run scored. We paid a lot for him.
Again, I really like him, and completely agree he's what our team needed. You can't argue that we paid out the nose. Effectively Barrie, one of the top offensively producing d-men, and 2 firsts.

I like Barrie but on a good defense he is a 3rd pairing guy defensively that is a great PP QB. He will be 31 so the Preds only have him for 1.25 seasons, Oilers get Eklhom for 3.25 yrs. Ekhlom's cap hit isn't that big for a top 4 guy which he is and his style of play should make it so he should be fine for his contract plus with the cap going up, in that last year, it won't be a big deal.

The first is a 24th overall. So best case, a guy taken with the 24th is probably 2 yrs more of junior plus at least 1 season in the AHL. So 3 yrs before maybe he cracks the NHL. Might be longer. Schaefer in a not as good of a draft was taken 32nd overall. He's a power forward, they tend to take long. I be he's 2-3 yrs from cracking the NHL. At least 2 in the AHL. Neither of those guys are likely to be impact players their first season or 2.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824429 is a reply to message #824417 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 12:55

remember, trading away Barrie (who at the time had 43 pts in 61 games) cost Reid Schaefer, a 1st and a 4th to get Ekholm and a 6th...
I REALLY like Ekholm. I still think Nashville won that trade.
Likely Yamamoto and a 2nd for a 2nd and conditional 5th.


While it was a heavy cost, I don't think it was a big win for Nashville at this point. A lot will depend on how he ages over the next 3 years - at 33 he's no spring chicken and the wheels could definitely come off.

That said, we have a very narrow window to win now, and none of Reid Schaefer, the 1st or the 4th were going to be significant pieces in that time frame - especially if the team continues to finish in a spot where we'd be picking in the late 20s.

I'd trade away all the draft picks at this point if it improved the team in the next two years enough to seriously conte.

As for Barrie - yes, he brings some offence, but he's a challenging player because you have to insulate him on defence. He is a better RD than Desharnais though and we did miss him on the third pairing a little more because that's who the Oilers decided to replace his contributions with - with Ekholm basically bumping Broberg out of the lineup other than as the 7th guy. That's more of a coaching decision.

The upgrade from Barrie to Ekholm was worth a significant number of assets, and having Bouchard where he's at mitigated the loss of Barrie almost completely. Bouchard actually scored at a higher rate than Barrie on the PP, and that rate was astronomical in the playoffs.

I expect the return on Yamamoto to be extremely underwhelming, if we aren't giving up a future pick or swapping a higher pick for a lower one in order to flush him.

Worth noting, the Oilers should STOP FLIPPING LEAKING this stuff. What benefit is it for the team to have Yamamoto know they're close to a deal to sell him for his cap room? What happens if it falls through? Just brutally stupid that they never understand this.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824435 is a reply to message #824429 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I agree again, that we should trade all our picks and prospects for a cup (not actually... but yeah kind of) What I would have liked was to have used Reid Schaefer in one trade and our 1st in another. We could have used the tools at our disposal better, rather than Nashville telling us what they want, and Holland just signing off on it. Having Bouchard able to step up was a win for us, but not a reason to throw assets away
Value wise in a trade, Ekholm could be worth Schaefer and a 1st for a rebuilding team (which Nashville thought they would be before accidentally almost making the playoffs) or Barrie + one of those.

For argument, Ivan Provorov played 23 minutes a night on a terrible Philidelphia team and was almost as good as Ekholm (Mattias is the better player, just play along) and Phili traded him for a 1st anda 4th.
Tyler Bertuzzi for a 1st and a 4th
Chychrun for a protected 1st, 2nd and 2026 2nd
Filip Hronek and a 4th for a 1st and 2nd
Korpisalo and Gavrikov for Quick a 1st and 3rd.


It was the right trade for the Oilers, but seems like nobody pays as much, as often, as we do.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824441 is a reply to message #824435 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 15:07

I agree again, that we should trade all our picks and prospects for a cup (not actually... but yeah kind of) What I would have liked was to have used Reid Schaefer in one trade and our 1st in another. We could have used the tools at our disposal better, rather than Nashville telling us what they want, and Holland just signing off on it. Having Bouchard able to step up was a win for us, but not a reason to throw assets away
Value wise in a trade, Ekholm could be worth Schaefer and a 1st for a rebuilding team (which Nashville thought they would be before accidentally almost making the playoffs) or Barrie + one of those.

For argument, Ivan Provorov played 23 minutes a night on a terrible Philidelphia team and was almost as good as Ekholm (Mattias is the better player, just play along) and Phili traded him for a 1st anda 4th.
Tyler Bertuzzi for a 1st and a 4th
Chychrun for a protected 1st, 2nd and 2026 2nd
Filip Hronek and a 4th for a 1st and 2nd
Korpisalo and Gavrikov for Quick a 1st and 3rd.


It was the right trade for the Oilers, but seems like nobody pays as much, as often, as we do.


I think you're over-valuing Reid Schaefer. You're talking about a 32nd overall pick with very marginal offensive production improvement in his Draft Year+1. You have to remember, Tyler Pitlick and David Musil were 31st overall picks. While Schaefer's race is far from run, he's not a sure thing to be an NHLer in that slot, never mind an impact one.

The 1st rounder this year is 24th overall, so slightly more valuable, but not exactly the same as what one of our draft picks from a few years ago would be. If we'd won one more round, we'd have been picking 29th or worse so Nashville got Barrie who's a step down and still under contract for a couple more years and they got a bunch of lottery tickets. It's not exactly a haul.

Could Holland have done better? Almost certainly. He's Ken Holland - he sucks at negotiating and doesn't believe that it's a good thing to win trades. So he almost certainly could have got the same for less. If he's a savvy GM, he's pointing out that the extra years on Ekholm versus Barrie make it more likely that Barrie ages better through the contract. But for a Holland deal, the Ekholm trade is going to be as good as it gets. Hell, for Holland who's always believed in the mystical power that ancient greybeards have on the dressing room, he probably wishes he could have got an older guy so maybe just count our lucky stars for this deal. There's a lot more things we can beat up the old coot for.


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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824442 is a reply to message #824435 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 15:07

I agree again, that we should trade all our picks and prospects for a cup (not actually... but yeah kind of) What I would have liked was to have used Reid Schaefer in one trade and our 1st in another. We could have used the tools at our disposal better, rather than Nashville telling us what they want, and Holland just signing off on it. Having Bouchard able to step up was a win for us, but not a reason to throw assets away
Value wise in a trade, Ekholm could be worth Schaefer and a 1st for a rebuilding team (which Nashville thought they would be before accidentally almost making the playoffs) or Barrie + one of those.

For argument, Ivan Provorov played 23 minutes a night on a terrible Philidelphia team and was almost as good as Ekholm (Mattias is the better player, just play along) and Phili traded him for a 1st anda 4th.
Tyler Bertuzzi for a 1st and a 4th
Chychrun for a protected 1st, 2nd and 2026 2nd
Filip Hronek and a 4th for a 1st and 2nd
Korpisalo and Gavrikov for Quick a 1st and 3rd.


It was the right trade for the Oilers, but seems like nobody pays as much, as often, as we do.


You're forgetting the necessity of moving Barrie's money to make the cap work both for this year and next.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824440 is a reply to message #824429 ]
Tue, 20 June 2023 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Adam wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 13:28

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 20 June 2023 12:55

remember, trading away Barrie (who at the time had 43 pts in 61 games) cost Reid Schaefer, a 1st and a 4th to get Ekholm and a 6th...
I REALLY like Ekholm. I still think Nashville won that trade.
Likely Yamamoto and a 2nd for a 2nd and conditional 5th.


While it was a heavy cost, I don't think it was a big win for Nashville at this point. A lot will depend on how he ages over the next 3 years - at 33 he's no spring chicken and the wheels could definitely come off.

That said, we have a very narrow window to win now, and none of Reid Schaefer, the 1st or the 4th were going to be significant pieces in that time frame - especially if the team continues to finish in a spot where we'd be picking in the late 20s.

I'd trade away all the draft picks at this point if it improved the team in the next two years enough to seriously conte.




.. after watching the WHL playoffs and Memorial Cup games.. to be honest if Oilers still had Schaefer I'd have a bit of worry about his ability and NHL future in an NHL lineup .. now I don't have that worry :)

He didn't exactly light up the regular season either as a draft +1.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824456 is a reply to message #824110 ]
Wed, 21 June 2023 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Here's Connor Brown in action.. looks like he has some wheels and a shot..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQmrTXMQGg&t=78s

Might be an Oiler July 1st.
https://twitter.com/lukegazdic/status/1671244250342719492

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Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824458 is a reply to message #824456 ]
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CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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I don't mind adding another Connor, but if the Brown version is being looked at as being the solution to the Oilers problems, I have some concerns. His production has been up and down from very useful (20 goals twice) to very middling (8). Which is fine because the Oilers have goal production well covered. Buttttt if he's being looked at to replace Foegele or Yammo as maybe the 6th forwards he's a guy who looks like he peaked in the bubble season and would be coming back from missing the entire last year. I'd imagine he's looking at taking a pay cut from the $3.6 million he made last season, which should be a good thing, butttt he's a UFA (probably) taking less money on his first UFA contract. Is that the guy to push the Oilers over the top into true cup contention?

I have some concerns.

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 Re: 2023 - The Summer of Ken [message #824481 is a reply to message #824458 ]
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Location: Burnaby, BC
3 Cups
CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 21 June 2023 11:41

I don't mind adding another Connor, but if the Brown version is being looked at as being the solution to the Oilers problems, I have some concerns. His production has been up and down from very useful (20 goals twice) to very middling (8). Which is fine because the Oilers have goal production well covered. Buttttt if he's being looked at to replace Foegele or Yammo as maybe the 6th forwards he's a guy who looks like he peaked in the bubble season and would be coming back from missing the entire last year. I'd imagine he's looking at taking a pay cut from the $3.6 million he made last season, which should be a good thing, butttt he's a UFA (probably) taking less money on his first UFA contract. Is that the guy to push the Oilers over the top into true cup contention?

I have some concerns.


Because injury, he qualifies for bonus laden contract.
You could get him at league min. ($750k?) + bonuses which would apply to next year's cap.. on a one year .. cap expected to go up to $90M + next year.

He's coming back from an ACL so he won't be commanding a lot.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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