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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724492 is a reply to message #724491 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 16:47

WhoreableGuy
Messages: 590
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary

No Cups

JPro wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40

WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

Yeah lets stick our head in the sand and pretend this doesn't happen every year.

I think it's time to bring the Lowe billboards back. I'm in for $20!

Look at the names though...Scrivens...Pakarinen? I think the only player I remember that was good for the Oilers and bashed was Sheldon Souray. All the other guys were players that were given all the opportunity to played and didn't do squat.

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724498 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.

Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:

1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%

And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%

And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.

So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.

Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?

Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com

http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;lines=single

ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.

CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.

I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.

And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 19:35]

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724503 is a reply to message #724498 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:24

Kr55
Messages: 9606
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Goose wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10

Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.

Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:

1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%

And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%

And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.

So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.

Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?

Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com

http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;lines=single

ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.

CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.

I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.

And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years

Simply needed a better team. It was a bad situation that brought out the worst in almost everyone. I don't doubt Hall is a super dick in many situations. The proof of that is everywhere. But, he's still a useful tool if you want to win hockey games. You just can't expect him to be your vocal leader and someone that is uniting a group off the ice. The OBC had years to figure that out and their answer was to get Ference on his last legs, giving him the C before he played 1 game for the team. And a rookie coach that ended up having no clue to boot.

Team is just dumb in so many ways, but hey, at least we got McDavid from that debacle :) Hopefully we weed out the dummies now before it's too late.

On Ference's contributions. He was what he was, and he said as much in the interview. Just a 4-5 D at best, and not someone that was able to command any respect from the kids because he wasn't able to move the needle for the team. Ference also has a rep as a condescending ass, so I'm doubtful he was that great at trying to convince the kids to chage their ways with how they worked with the rest of the team :)

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 20:27]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724528 is a reply to message #724498 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 08:22

Jay
Messages: 239
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Goose wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10

Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.

Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:

1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%

And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%

And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.

So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.

Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?

Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com

http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;a mp;lines=single

ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.

CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.

I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.

And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years

You seem to be saying that Ference and other bad players were not as effective as Hall and other good players? Is anyone debating that? Even Ference isn't denying that.

I think the bigger takeaway is that these guys (Lets call them Jaylor and Tordan since no names were mentioned) were able to get the results on the ice that you mentioned while still living the party lifestyle and - I don't think its really up for debate at this point - not committing to the overall good of the team.

You don't think that with that skill level and an attitude conducive to commitment to hockey off the ice that it would have made them and the team significantly better?? Off course the on ice game product is what counts. But you can't honestly think that they are mutually exclusive.

Ive never understood this. I made the same argument at the time when these guys were here and partying their faces off and everyone was just like 'well they are 20 year old millionaires and the 80s Oilers did it so its all good'...It has nothing to do with anything. If you decide to party and drink till 5 am you will be worse at hockey than if you commit to training and living a healthy lifestyle. Is this actually a controversial stance?

I'm not sure why its unreasonable to expect these guys to behave to a higher standard than the average 20 year old given their profession and the compensation they are getting.

But ultimately I'll say now what I said at the time. The players doing it is one thing. The players being allowed to get away with it again and again and again, rinse and repeat, is another. I love articles like this where players come and say what some of us here have been saying for years and actually shine a spot light on the dysfunction in this organization. And we all know where the buck stops - but hey he knows about winning so there is that.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724532 is a reply to message #724528 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 08:44

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Jay wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 08:22

You seem to be saying that Ference and other bad players were not as effective as Hall and other good players? Is anyone debating that? Even Ference isn't denying that.

I think the bigger takeaway is that these guys (Lets call them Jaylor and Tordan since no names were mentioned) were able to get the results on the ice that you mentioned while still living the party lifestyle and - I don't think its really up for debate at this point - not committing to the overall good of the team.

You don't think that with that skill level and an attitude conducive to commitment to hockey off the ice that it would have made them and the team significantly better?? Off course the on ice game product is what counts. But you can't honestly think that they are mutually exclusive.

Ive never understood this. I made the same argument at the time when these guys were here and partying their faces off and everyone was just like 'well they are 20 year old millionaires and the 80s Oilers did it so its all good'...It has nothing to do with anything. If you decide to party and drink till 5 am you will be worse at hockey than if you commit to training and living a healthy lifestyle. Is this actually a controversial stance?

I'm not sure why its unreasonable to expect these guys to behave to a higher standard than the average 20 year old given their profession and the compensation they are getting.

But ultimately I'll say now what I said at the time. The players doing it is one thing. The players being allowed to get away with it again and again and again, rinse and repeat, is another. I love articles like this where players come and say what some of us here have been saying for years and actually shine a spot light on the dysfunction in this organization. And we all know where the buck stops - but hey he knows about winning so there is that.

It is not unreasonable to expect that guys you're paying millions to, show up and do their job. It's not unreasonable for the organization to set expectations, and to have rewards and punishments based on those expectations.

The problem is, the organization wasn't setting those expectations. They'd simply bring in a few old players who were going to be bit parts on the team and think that that would straighten everything out. The team was clearly afraid to give strong messages from the top. They specifically were telling coaches to play those young players more - so was there any stomach to punish them? They changed coaches every year, so the authority of the coach is undercut, and they clearly stated multiple times that those guys were special on the team - they were the core, and we heard both Lowe and MacTavish say specifically that they weren't the problem, and it was the supporting cast who was letting the team down.

How is a 6th defenceman like Ference, no longer good enough to be a really solid on-ice contributor, going to change habits from young players? Especially when the team is rooming the young guys all together, and giving them the green light to have a good time.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724538 is a reply to message #724528 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 09:12

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

Jay wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 07:22

You don't think that with that skill level and an attitude conducive to commitment to hockey off the ice that it would have made them and the team significantly better?? Off course the on ice game product is what counts. But you can't honestly think that they are mutually exclusive.

I actually don't, no. Better? For sure. Significantly better? Not a chance. Of course partying until 5am doesn't help make you a better hockey player. But I dont buy any argument that better practice habits would have made Jordan Eberle into Sidney Crosby, and that's basically what would have needed to happen for the Oilers to not be awful.

Look at the numbers I posted, Ference in his time here was -36 in goal share. To counteract that, Hall would have needed to be at a 60% GF% (assuming he was on for a similar number of total goals). There's a handful of guys that achieve that level each year and they generally play on way better teams than the Oilers were.

In terms of assigning blame, I think management has to own all of this. If you want your players to be accountable to their team and to winning, then you do it by building a winning culture. Not by bringing in retread NHLers past their prime because they won a Cup at some point. But this team keeps making the same mistakes, which again, is how they wound up with Lucic.

Adam brought up KLowe's comments. MacT also came out and said that it was going to be another developmental year in 2015! As a player in your early 20's, how are you supposed to take that? Your GM just said he's not going to do anything to help your team get better except draft another high pick, but somehow you're supposed to treat every game like the Cup Final?

@Woodguy55 posted these on Twitter yesterday:

Quote:

Ference played 2 seasons with EDM 13/14 & 14/15

EDM got 42.9% of the goal share when Ference was with Hall and Eberle.

EDM got 34.1% of the goals when he was without those two.

Hall & Eberle got 62% of the goals when Ference wasn't with them.

4 & 14 were not the problem.

Quote:

09-15 Hall's most common Dmen: (250 min+)
Petry
Smid
Jultz
Nutz
Gilbert
Whitney
Peckman
Potter
Ference
Foster

How many are Actual Top 4? 2?

That's not a good group.

[Updated on: Tue, 11 December 2018 09:54]

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724546 is a reply to message #724538 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 10:00

Jay
Messages: 239
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Goose wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 09:12

I actually don't, no. Better? For sure. Significantly better? Not a chance. Of course partying until 5am doesn't help make you a better hockey player. But I dont buy any argument that better practice habits would have made Jordan Eberle into Sidney Crosby, and that's basically what would have needed to happen for the Oulers to not be awful.

Eberle doesn't need to become Crosby to make a difference. If he and other members of "THE CORE" are committed to a healthy lifestyle and not drinking all night that makes them better players. It just does. If they have a better attitude and approach to practice that makes it more likely that everyone is pulling in the same direction and the team is better. How much better? Maybe a little maybe a lot. But it doesn't really matter.

Ultimately there is nothing wrong with someone like Ference pointing this stuff out. Regardless of his contributions to the team he is still right about this.

Then we come to the real issue of why this culture has been allowed to become such a problem..

Quote:

In terms of assigning blame, I think management has to own all of this. If you want your players to be accountable to their team and to winning, then you do it by building a winning culture. Not by bringing in retread NHLers past their prime because they won a Cup at some point. But this team keeps making the same mistakes, which again, is how they wound up with Lucic.

Adam brought up KLowe's comments. MacT also came out and said that it was going to be another developmental year in 2015! As a player in your early 20's, how are you supposed to take that? Your GM just said he's not going to do anything to help your team get better except draft another high pick, but somehow you're supposed to treat every game like the Cup Final?

No argument. This is where we agree. The fact this poisonous atmosphere has been allowed to go on for literally decades is 100% a management problem. And that IMO stems from Kevin Lowe.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724504 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

twilson1111
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

No Cups

I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724505 is a reply to message #724504 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:41

twilson1111
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

No Cups

To me the core of the matter for Ference is this: he won a cup in Boston and thought that would mean he’s a good leader. That was a mistake, and he never realized that his leadership must not have been that good, given the results.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724506 is a reply to message #724504 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:48

Kr55
Messages: 9606
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

twilson1111 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

Thing about partying...all the players do it, especially the young guys. That's just part of being young and rich. The Oilers during the glory days were crazy partiers by all accounts. I think Ference may be an outlier a bit here, a bit of a boy scout.

The stuff about being dicks to people in practice for taking practice seriously though, that's a lot worse IMO. But, that's also partially a byproduct of the team being a consistent joke. And this was under Dallas Eakins, specifically Dallas Eakins' 2nd year here drawing from Ference's example of when the boys were partying after a loss, where the wheels came off the season very quickly. Looking down the barrel of season 4 or 5 in a row for the golden boys where it's over by November.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 20:50]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724509 is a reply to message #724506 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 21:58

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:48

twilson1111 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

Thing about partying...all the players do it, especially the young guys. That's just part of being young and rich. The Oilers during the glory days were crazy partiers by all accounts. I think Ference may be an outlier a bit here, a bit of a boy scout.

The stuff about being dicks to people in practice for taking practice seriously though, that's a lot worse IMO. But, that's also partially a byproduct of the team being a consistent joke. And this was under Dallas Eakins, specifically Dallas Eakins' 2nd year here drawing from Ference's example of when the boys were partying after a loss, where the wheels came off the season very quickly. Looking down the barrel of season 4 or 5 in a row for the golden boys where it's over by November.

I do think some of that is being young and rich, and not having the organization set boundaries, or give you any negative consequences if you step outside those boundaries.

I do also think that the fact that Kevin Lowe was coming out after the second season for Hall and Eberle saying that management always intended for the team to suck so they could get a third straight high pick certainly is damaging if you're trying to convince these players to go to the wall every night, even down the stretch in lost seasons. If the organization doesn't seem serious about winning and is perfectly content to flush multiple seasons down the toilet - and even pats themselves on the back for the failure - then you're going to care less and less about the losing after a while.

If you have the management telling the coach to play certain players to "sell hope" rather than to do what he thinks is best for the player development and the path to team success, then you're setting more bad precedents.

Lowetide has said at multiple times that the Oilers brass does certain things because they value other things above winning - and that's going to trickle down.

I have no doubt it was frustrating for Ference...but the Oilers aren't the only team that's had a bunch of young players, and we either are the most unlucky team ever, or we do the worst job handling players. I think it's more likely the latter.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724508 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 21:51

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

I spent a lot of time on the highway today and listened to this podcast as I drove.

Some fascinating things with it, but it all points to management. I do think that Ference had an impossible job, being brought in to teach the young guys to be a professional as a former Stanley Cup winner. He's a lot like Ethan Moreau as captain. You have a guy at the bottom of your roster who doesn't have much of a relationship with the guys who management is tagging as the next great stars of the team. He's preaching that they have to buy in and work hard, but they're accomplishing a hell of a lot more on the ice while partying than he is while busting his ass. It makes it really hard to send the message, especially if there's the feeling that management doesn't have your back.

It was interesting to hear Ference say specifically that players here do not feel like management DOES have their backs. They watch the media and then the fans tear players apart, and they see NOTHING from the GM, the POHO or even the coach protecting them. In fact, they see the opposite sometimes. They see McLellan feeding the fire with Schultz, or MacTavish with Dubnyk or Penner. They see anonymous sources telling stories to the media about players and whispers about attitude as soon as anyone leaves.

It's certainly possible that the Hall/Eberle/Schultz/Nuge group was completely wild and out of hand and that no one could rein them in. It's also quite possible that before that, the Gagner/Cogliano/Nilsson/Gilbert group was also unstoppable forces of partying who cared only about having fun and not about winning. But it seems like an incredible run of bad luck, and if those things are true, then maybe talking about all those players at various points as the untouchable core of the team - while raking hard-working veterans over the coals for not "accepting their secondary roles" was maybe a poor decision.

I think the 80s Oilers did party, but A) it was a different era where it wasn't as hard to win, and B) they still had Sather who laid down the law and wasn't afraid to send serious messages to young players - the most obvious being the demotion of Mark Messier to the AHL after he missed a flight. The management for the last several iterations of the rebuild seemed petrified that to put players in their place would make them ask for a trade. Lowe and Company seemed to think that the kids partying was just boys being boys, and that they couldn't dare to set expectations on them. That had really negative ramifications, just as anointing them the "CORE" and talking about them as a subset different from the rest of the players also killed the team culture.

And the team's management has been MUCH more concerned about their own self-preservation than it is about winning. They may want to win, but they aren't willing to put themselves on the line for it. They're fine with player criticism, because if you believe the players they have are all a bunch of losers, then maybe you are okay with them getting traded, rather than calling for the heads of the guys who've orchestrated the last 18 years of almost constant failure.

I still think it's interesting that you have a writer crucify one of your top players that HE ALMOST CERTAINLY KNOWS IS PLAYING INJURED, and there is not a peep from the organization. Nothing. And then the exact same writer, 18 months later writes a piece critical of management and he's barred from the TV telecast for a game as punishment.

There's of course the easy retort about Ference that he was a bit player who is just sour about the way his career ended, but it's not just Ference. We've had Comrie, Marchant, Chimera, Thoresen, Souray, Gilbert, Belanger, Nick Schultz, O'Sullivan, Smid, Hemsky, Whitney, Bryzgalov, Auvitu, Pakarinen, etc. etc. say unflattering things about this team after they leave it. Some of those guys no doubt contributed to their own issues here, some of their comments were little more than parting shots - but considering how seldom hockey players say anything that's controversial, that's a staggering list.

Anyone who doesn't realize by now that the organization culture is a major issue just has their head in the sand. Kevin Lowe, Craig MacTavish and company have always been in over their heads running a hockey team. They did not have the tools to do it well, and their attempts to protect themselves over the players has been absolutely toxic. The media in this town has enabled them - some out of fear of losing access, some out of friendship to these old players that has made them constantly excuse their inadequacies in management.

The worst part? Nothing has changed. At the end of last year, the management again focused the blame on the players. Chiarelli went out of his way to blame the "94s" on the team for not taking the next step - which only draws extra negative attention on those players. In scrums, McLellan constantly pointed out who was to blame on individual scoring plays night after night.

And when there were questions about management's role in the failure, we had Bob Nicholson come out and defend him - saying that they believed in his plan. Chiarelli said he would make all the same trades over again and he knows they were the right moves for the team!?

I welcome frank remarks from former Oilers, because the curtain needs to be thrown back on this. Ference had to know that he's going to invite a whole lot of invective from the worst of the Oilers fans who will no doubt take to twitter and elsewhere to harass him for voicing these things, but I'm appreciative. Every time someone speaks up, I get a little more hope that eventually a lightbulb will come on with Katz, and he'll realize that he can keep his human doll collection in some other capacity, but they can't run his hockey team any more - because they only ever run it in to the ground.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724518 is a reply to message #724508 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 23:17

stemhovlichski
Messages: 346
Registered: March 2006
Location: NSR

No Cups

Yes, Adam, yes.

I've been perturbed by the culture of disorganization here for decades. Always fingers pointing blame; benching and calling out players to take heat off the coaches and GMs; trading away anyone challenging the status quo, reliving the 80s to sell merch- all while the on ice product stank.

This team was built under Pocklington to be a money maker for the executives and nothing else. Until the forced removal of the culture of banking the bucks, partying like its 1999 and defending their jobs by any means necessary, this team will remain a draft lottery candidate every year. Proof: the frickin' draft lottery - invented to punish this very team for its remarkable ineptitude!!!

Restored: "We're sucking hind banana here." - Pat Quinn, Jan 18, 2010

"...the Oilers have been rebuilding for so long that it’s hard not to be cynical." - NBC's Ryan Dadoun Jan 2, 2015

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724523 is a reply to message #724518 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 00:37

nullterm
Messages: 926
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

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I agree with all the points Ference made, except saying Eakins was a good coach.

But I also think there were more problems stemming from management as well. Ference still towing the line now throwing his former bosses under the bus.

Management, coaching, players. All of them had their contribution to the mess.
As well, the media and fans making things worse, though not the primary cause.
Just a perennially bad organization from top to bottom.

The only thing giving it any cohesion these days is 97 and what looks like a guy named Hitch.

[Updated on: Tue, 11 December 2018 00:40]

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724531 is a reply to message #724508 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 08:36

Jay
Messages: 239
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 21:51

I spent a lot of time on the highway today and listened to this podcast as I drove.

Some fascinating things with it, but it all points to management. I do think that Ference had an impossible job, being brought in to teach the young guys to be a professional as a former Stanley Cup winner. He's a lot like Ethan Moreau as captain. You have a guy at the bottom of your roster who doesn't have much of a relationship with the guys who management is tagging as the next great stars of the team. He's preaching that they have to buy in and work hard, but they're accomplishing a hell of a lot more on the ice while partying than he is while busting his ass. It makes it really hard to send the message, especially if there's the feeling that management doesn't have your back.

It was interesting to hear Ference say specifically that players here do not feel like management DOES have their backs. They watch the media and then the fans tear players apart, and they see NOTHING from the GM, the POHO or even the coach protecting them. In fact, they see the opposite sometimes. They see McLellan feeding the fire with Schultz, or MacTavish with Dubnyk or Penner. They see anonymous sources telling stories to the media about players and whispers about attitude as soon as anyone leaves.

It's certainly possible that the Hall/Eberle/Schultz/Nuge group was completely wild and out of hand and that no one could rein them in. It's also quite possible that before that, the Gagner/Cogliano/Nilsson/Gilbert group was also unstoppable forces of partying who cared only about having fun and not about winning. But it seems like an incredible run of bad luck, and if those things are true, then maybe talking about all those players at various points as the untouchable core of the team - while raking hard-working veterans over the coals for not "accepting their secondary roles" was maybe a poor decision.

I think the 80s Oilers did party, but A) it was a different era where it wasn't as hard to win, and B) they still had Sather who laid down the law and wasn't afraid to send serious messages to young players - the most obvious being the demotion of Mark Messier to the AHL after he missed a flight. The management for the last several iterations of the rebuild seemed petrified that to put players in their place would make them ask for a trade. Lowe and Company seemed to think that the kids partying was just boys being boys, and that they couldn't dare to set expectations on them. That had really negative ramifications, just as anointing them the "CORE" and talking about them as a subset different from the rest of the players also killed the team culture.

And the team's management has been MUCH more concerned about their own self-preservation than it is about winning. They may want to win, but they aren't willing to put themselves on the line for it. They're fine with player criticism, because if you believe the players they have are all a bunch of losers, then maybe you are okay with them getting traded, rather than calling for the heads of the guys who've orchestrated the last 18 years of almost constant failure.

I still think it's interesting that you have a writer crucify one of your top players that HE ALMOST CERTAINLY KNOWS IS PLAYING INJURED, and there is not a peep from the organization. Nothing. And then the exact same writer, 18 months later writes a piece critical of management and he's barred from the TV telecast for a game as punishment.

There's of course the easy retort about Ference that he was a bit player who is just sour about the way his career ended, but it's not just Ference. We've had Comrie, Marchant, Chimera, Thoresen, Souray, Gilbert, Belanger, Nick Schultz, O'Sullivan, Smid, Hemsky, Whitney, Bryzgalov, Auvitu, Pakarinen, etc. etc. say unflattering things about this team after they leave it. Some of those guys no doubt contributed to their own issues here, some of their comments were little more than parting shots - but considering how seldom hockey players say anything that's controversial, that's a staggering list.

Anyone who doesn't realize by now that the organization culture is a major issue just has their head in the sand. Kevin Lowe, Craig MacTavish and company have always been in over their heads running a hockey team. They did not have the tools to do it well, and their attempts to protect themselves over the players has been absolutely toxic. The media in this town has enabled them - some out of fear of losing access, some out of friendship to these old players that has made them constantly excuse their inadequacies in management.

The worst part? Nothing has changed. At the end of last year, the management again focused the blame on the players. Chiarelli went out of his way to blame the "94s" on the team for not taking the next step - which only draws extra negative attention on those players. In scrums, McLellan constantly pointed out who was to blame on individual scoring plays night after night.

And when there were questions about management's role in the failure, we had Bob Nicholson come out and defend him - saying that they believed in his plan. Chiarelli said he would make all the same trades over again and he knows they were the right moves for the team!?

I welcome frank remarks from former Oilers, because the curtain needs to be thrown back on this. Ference had to know that he's going to invite a whole lot of invective from the worst of the Oilers fans who will no doubt take to twitter and elsewhere to harass him for voicing these things, but I'm appreciative. Every time someone speaks up, I get a little more hope that eventually a lightbulb will come on with Katz, and he'll realize that he can keep his human doll collection in some other capacity, but they can't run his hockey team any more - because they only ever run it in to the ground.

This is an excellent post. Sums up this team almost perfectly. My thoughts on this are pretty similar but you've articulated it really well here.

I love that Ference did this and was honest about the team. Frankly I would be thrilled to hear more thoughts from guys like Souray, Hemsky, Moreau etc etc.

The thing that continues to floor me is the constant outcry when this kind of thing comes up - 'well Ference sucked so who cares what he thinks!'

He may have sucked - well he pretty much did. That doesn't mean he is wrong about the teams culture or the way some of the players were behaving. And yes unprofessional (partying) behavior off the ice is detrimental to performance on the ice. Fact.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724512 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 22:21

twilson1111
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

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Given the systemic and repetitive nature of these problems, I’d concede that management must be to blame. As a manager myself, I’d guess that they’ve equated success in one area with likelihood of success in another (I just had to remove a guy at work due to making that mistake - he went from hero to zero). It’s a horrible mistake to make, because you then need to reverse course on all the recent praise and encouragement you’ve given them and they will not likely take that well, given their expectations of continued success

Famous players do not necessarily make good GMs
Famous players do not necessarily make good coaches
Good pluggers do not necessarily make good captains
Highly skilled youth do not necessarily make good leaders
Past teammates do not necessarily make good management
Family members do not necessarily make good draft picks

In all of these cases, the organization lacks an EYE FOR TALENT. They don’t understand why people are successful in certain roles, and how that might be different depending on the role.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724543 is a reply to message #724512 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 09:40

NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 882
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI

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twilson1111 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 01:21

Given the systemic and repetitive nature of these problems, I’d concede that management must be to blame. As a manager myself, I’d guess that they’ve equated success in one area with likelihood of success in another (I just had to remove a guy at work due to making that mistake - he went from hero to zero). It’s a horrible mistake to make, because you then need to reverse course on all the recent praise and encouragement you’ve given them and they will not likely take that well, given their expectations of continued success

Famous players do not necessarily make good GMs
Famous players do not necessarily make good coaches
Good pluggers do not necessarily make good captains
Highly skilled youth do not necessarily make good leaders
Past teammates do not necessarily make good management
Family members do not necessarily make good draft picks

In all of these cases, the organization lacks an EYE FOR TALENT. They don’t understand why people are successful in certain roles, and how that might be different depending on the role.

I'd agree with all the above, but regarding the bolded: I've liked our draft picks for the most part since Chia took over. Not sure if Keith Gretzky is the main person involved in those or if it's still mostly Chia or the scouts, but for the first time in forever we actually have some legitimate prospects in our system (other than the no brainer top 5 picks who were pushed immediately into the NHL due to lack of other options)

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724545 is a reply to message #724543 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 09:54

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 09:40

twilson1111 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 01:21

Given the systemic and repetitive nature of these problems, I’d concede that management must be to blame. As a manager myself, I’d guess that they’ve equated success in one area with likelihood of success in another (I just had to remove a guy at work due to making that mistake - he went from hero to zero). It’s a horrible mistake to make, because you then need to reverse course on all the recent praise and encouragement you’ve given them and they will not likely take that well, given their expectations of continued success

Famous players do not necessarily make good GMs
Famous players do not necessarily make good coaches
Good pluggers do not necessarily make good captains
Highly skilled youth do not necessarily make good leaders
Past teammates do not necessarily make good management
Family members do not necessarily make good draft picks

In all of these cases, the organization lacks an EYE FOR TALENT. They don’t understand why people are successful in certain roles, and how that might be different depending on the role.

I'd agree with all the above, but regarding the bolded: I've liked our draft picks for the most part since Chia took over. Not sure if Keith Gretzky is the main person involved in those or if it's still mostly Chia or the scouts, but for the first time in forever we actually have some legitimate prospects in our system (other than the no brainer top 5 picks who were pushed immediately into the NHL due to lack of other options)

Remember, we've been in this spot before...remember when everyone thought Stu McGregor was doing great because there were a bunch of guys graduating to the AHL? Until we start seeing more of the depth picks making impacts on the NHL roster, I'm hesitant to give this scouting regime a lot of credit. Some of the early returns look promising, but that's about it.

Also - there's reason to believe the pro scouting still sucks.

Not sure which side Chiarelli's brother is on...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724513 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 22:29

smyth260
Messages: 947
Registered: November 2007

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I am disappointed there wasn't more of a direct comment on management. Saying that there wasn't anybody coming to defend the whipping boy of the day was about the most damning thing he said. It's nothing we don't already know, the Oilers mismange their culture as badly as they can.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724527 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 06:01

stotto
Messages: 49
Registered: November 2015
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Ference is a great community and fitness guy and probably a very good person.

He lost my attention when he said Eakins was a good coach.

Maybe a good AHL coach.

Players and management are both to blame. It ain't just one or the other.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724547 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 10:06

Kr55
Messages: 9606
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

At the end of the day, Ference at least gave us insight as to why the OBC really soured on Hall, before Chia even got here. And also why Hall kept getting snubbed for team Canada stuff.

Can agree or disagree about the actual affect on performance that being a douche has, but hockey people are largely old school, and believe in the attitude of putting the team before yourself. Oilers are run by that type, hockey canada teams are created by those types.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724577 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 16:19

Rocksteady
Messages: 479
Registered: March 2007

No Cups

Neilson was on the news this morning asked about the Ference allegations and Dustin said these 3 things:
1.Why do I care what a has been says about the Oilers
2. It's irrelevant
3. This team is not the Oilers of Ferences' time.

Point number 3 is the only right thing. What a buffoon. The ills of the teams of old and now are still there, still lurking, still infesting. Yeah the Edmonton fa nbase by enlarge get their opinions derived from media hot takes, and we can be unfair but hey man we pay the ticket prices it's our right.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724578 is a reply to message #724577 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 16:28

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 16:19

Neilson was on the news this morning asked about the Ference allegations and Dustin said these 3 things:
1.Why do I care what a has been says about the Oilers
2. It's irrelevant
3. This team is not the Oilers of Ferences' time.

Point number 3 is the only right thing. What a buffoon. The ills of the teams of old and now are still there, still lurking, still infesting. Yeah the Edmonton fa nbase by enlarge get their opinions derived from media hot takes, and we can be unfair but hey man we pay the ticket prices it's our right.

Yeah, I heard this a lot on the radio today. It's a disingenuous argument, at best. It's an attempt to win the debate by deciding the debate doesn't matter. Totally flawed thinking.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724579 is a reply to message #724577 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 17:14

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 16:19

Neilson was on the news this morning asked about the Ference allegations and Dustin said these 3 things:
1.Why do I care what a has been says about the Oilers
2. It's irrelevant
3. This team is not the Oilers of Ferences' time.

Point number 3 is the only right thing. What a buffoon. The ills of the teams of old and now are still there, still lurking, still infesting. Yeah the Edmonton fa nbase by enlarge get their opinions derived from media hot takes, and we can be unfair but hey man we pay the ticket prices it's our right.

It was discussed at length with Spector and Stauffer today. There was even a little heat to that conversation, although some predictable talking points:

- The fans pay their money, they can criticize whoever they want! It's not Ference's place to criticize the fans!!!

- Spector said, "hey, I have to write a column every day, I need content. I'm going to write the narratives I see. If I think Kassian takes a bad penalty, I'll write that article."

- Stauffer pointed out that the physical guys aren't usually the whipping boys, and suggested that Lucic isn't THAT maligned here, because he works hard and he hits people. That of course is a pathetic defence - there's lots of valuable players who aren't big hitters.

- They danced around the criticism that the team didn't defend their players, saying they think they do - and used Lucic again as the example (although I think Lucic is more defended because he's seen as a massive management error, rather than because the fans and media are on the player alone).

- They did blame MacTavish for any culture where the young guys didn't take practice seriously, or they felt they could do anything they want. They said "if true" then the blame lies with the coach, the captain and the GM at the time. They seemed to go out of their way to pin it on MacT - not the management as a whole...

- They pointed out that it was a while ago that he played here.

Basically, they're defending the media and the team.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Nuge counters [message #724581 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Daftmonk
Messages: 25
Registered: June 2000
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." — Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724584 is a reply to message #724581 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 17:52

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I love this line from Tychkowski:

Quote:

If the culture wasn’t good, it was incumbent on those people to change it. If they couldn’t even begin to do that, then it is further indication that they weren’t the right choices for management, coach and captain, which is why all of them were quickly changed.

This is typical smokescreen for the Oilers management. Pretend that there was some big management change, when everyone who was in a key management role at that time is still here and still in a key management role. There's a decision to pin this on MacTavish clearly, but he's still in the room helping make the decisions that shape this club. So is his old boss and buddy Kevin Lowe, and his next in line Scott Howson.

They've all insulated themselves a little, but it's the same duds, and the same terrible corporate culture...

How long a slump would Klefbom have to have before he was getting booed here? If that happens, do we expect Chia or Lowe or MacT or anyone else to get in front of the cameras and tell the fans (and media) to pipe down?

Does the team still not realize the issues that come with setting up cliques in the dressing room or putting certain players ahead of the team? Remember the circus about McDavid and Gretzky being the first two on the ice at Rogers Place? If Draisaitl and Nurse were wild on the town, do you think that the management would do anything to try to settle them down at all?

I think it's all still relevant, because the management DID NOT get quickly changed. Not in any meaningful way.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724749 is a reply to message #724584 ]	Wed, 12 December 2018 09:31

Jay
Messages: 239
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Quote:

If the culture wasn’t good, it was incumbent on those people to change it. If they couldn’t even begin to do that, then it is further indication that they weren’t the right choices for management, coach and captain, which is why all of them were quickly changed.

Lol classic.
Its not like there is a pattern of this kind of thing happening over and over again (there is). It happened one time with a specific group of players and they replaced all the responsible people! (they didn't).

Awesome job by the Oilers! They noticed this problem years before Ference ever brought it up and they fixed it! What a team!

I sometimes wonder weather the media hacks in Edmonton are really dumb or really controlled or both. I mean there's no way they actually believe this stuff right?

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724751 is a reply to message #724749 ]	Wed, 12 December 2018 09:36

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Jay wrote on Wed, 12 December 2018 09:31

Quote:

If the culture wasn’t good, it was incumbent on those people to change it. If they couldn’t even begin to do that, then it is further indication that they weren’t the right choices for management, coach and captain, which is why all of them were quickly changed.

Lol classic.
Its not like there is a pattern of this kind of thing happening over and over again (there is). It happened one time with a specific group of players and they replaced all the responsible people! (they didn't).

Awesome job by the Oilers! They noticed this problem years before Ference ever brought it up and they fixed it! What a team!

I sometimes wonder weather the media hacks in Edmonton are really dumb or really controlled or both. I mean there's no way they actually believe this stuff right?

They're controlled, if you're ever thinking about legitimate media just assumed they're controlled. They believe it, but only because they have to.

The real shame of all this is it happened during a rare period of optimism for Oilers hockey. Imagine if this interview had happened before Hitchcock was hired and the torches were already out.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724594 is a reply to message #724581 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

K.McC#24
Messages: 2827
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724598 is a reply to message #724594 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 19:28

NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 882
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI

No Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

Wasn't the big hype about Ference when he showed up about how he was going to get the young bucks in line and show em how a professional should act? I remember seeing several big stories in the news about that.

So much for that.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724667 is a reply to message #724594 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724681 is a reply to message #724667 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:15

K.McC#24
Messages: 2827
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724700 is a reply to message #724681 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

Oscargasm
Messages: 5667
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

Survivor CHAMP S52 | S66
OG's #MUSTWIN Scale
Category 1 - Lightly Musty
Category 2 - Moderately Musty
Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
Category 5 - Incredibly Musty

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724709 is a reply to message #724700 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:45

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

I should go back and listen. How did the Oilers talk start? I don’t think Ference or the podcast set out to do a hit piece on the Oilers, it was just a conversation that naturally went there, right?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724716 is a reply to message #724709 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:47

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:45

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

I should go back and listen. How did the Oilers talk start? I don’t think Ference or the podcast set out to do a hit piece on the Oilers, it was just a conversation that naturally went there, right?

Yeah, they were talking about what it was like in the Bruins locker room and how tight it was, and how they could say anything to each other...and then they asked him about coming to Edmonton...

I think he was really excited to come home, and it sounded like he was really really disappointed with how it went down here. It's a pretty entertaining podcast all around. He finally admits that he flipped off the crowd in Montreal...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724717 is a reply to message #724709 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:47

Oscargasm
Messages: 5667
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:45

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

I should go back and listen. How did the Oilers talk start? I don’t think Ference or the podcast set out to do a hit piece on the Oilers, it was just a conversation that naturally went there, right?

Yes? I think you’re right. I’ve gotten into the habit of indulging in scotch during games, and had a couple post work beers. So. Yes? Lol

Survivor CHAMP S52 | S66
OG's #MUSTWIN Scale
Category 1 - Lightly Musty
Category 2 - Moderately Musty
Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
Category 5 - Incredibly Musty

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724720 is a reply to message #724700 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:55

K.McC#24
Messages: 2827
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

Not on the sh_tshow Twitter, sorry. A bit of a mea culpa after the blowback I suppose. Bob Stauffer? icon_lol

icon_lol

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724721 is a reply to message #724720 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:58

Oscargasm
Messages: 5667
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:55

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:15

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21

Daftmonk wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/fe rence-exaggerating-claims-of-hard-partying-edmonton-oilers-t eam-that-didnt-care-says-ryan-nugent-hopkins

I just read this before logging on. Pretty reasonable comments by Nuge. Ference didn't really speak to his own failure....I mean, he WAS captain of the club, was he not? I think Ference is right up there with Shane Corson and Moreau as far as captains go.

I think Corson's in a league of his own as far as crappy captains go. He feuded with the coach and had a fight in the dressing room with Weight and Arnott. He was wild before he came to Edmonton, and the Oilers for some reason thought that maybe giving him more responsibility would make him responsible. Instead he was just a disaster.

With Ference, it was always a dumb idea to bring a guy in (on a bad contract) who didn't really know almost anyone in the room and hand him the captaincy, simply because he'd been on a Stanley Cup team before.

On top of that, the team didn't just make the decision, but made it drawn out so that the media guys could all speculate and write loving sonnets about various players who were candidates - creating the feel of winners and losers in the process.

Ference had no friends or allies in the room (other than the ultra-lame and full-of-himself coach) and was now supposed to be the leader? It was just a dumb idea. #becauseoilers

Yeah, this just isn't a good look for Ference in my opinion.

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

Not on the sh_tshow Twitter, sorry. A bit of a mea culpa after the blowback I suppose. Bob Stauffer? icon_lol

icon_lol

Ference:
Postscript to my chat with Elliotte and Jeff:
-we never got into how disappointed I was in my own failure to lead the Oilers into a better place. It’s actually similar to the regrets I had after losing the Cup. Lots of what ifs and redos I wish I had.
-as an Oiler fan, didn’t express my pride in the leadership that is there now. #97 is an incredible player and person who we are all lucky to have on our team. Between him and Bob, the culture is exponentially better, which should make Edmonton proud.
-would have choked up a bit if I got too into Montador/Iginla airplane & dressing room debate club. Monty was an incredibly special guy, surely missed by every teammate he ever had.

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724722 is a reply to message #724720 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 21:58

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:55

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:37

Ference took to twitter to add to the matter, adding that he’s disappointed in his own failures in his leadership and how he notices #97’s leadership coupled with Bob changing the culture exponentially.

Give it a read.

Not on the sh_tshow Twitter, sorry. A bit of a mea culpa after the blowback I suppose. Bob Stauffer? icon_lol

icon_lol

Here's what he said:

Quote:

Andrew Ference
@Ferknuckle

Postscript to my chat with Elliotte and Jeff:
-we never got into how disappointed I was in my own failure to lead the Oilers into a better place. It’s actually similar to the regrets I had after losing the Cup. Lots of what ifs and redos I wish I had.]

Quote:

Andrew Ference
@Ferknuckle

-as an Oiler fan, didn’t express my pride in the leadership that is there now. #97 is an incredible player and person who we are all lucky to have on our team. Between him and Bob, the culture is exponentially better, which should make Edmonton proud.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724732 is a reply to message #724722 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 22:20

smyth260
Messages: 947
Registered: November 2007

No Cups

He's being too nice. Taking some responsibility after taking heat for his comments. I would have loved more of a finger directly pointed at management for creating a toxic environment with no support. This story got a lot of traction. It's not marginal NHLer Liro Pakarinen or an AHL buried Sheldon Souray speaking out. It's the previous captain of the Oilers. Now all of the focus is on partying, who wasn't trying hard in practice, and whether Ference was right to say those things.

Who am I kidding though. Even if Ference only said "Kevin Lowe, MacT, and their friends are all the worst people to lead an NHL organization", the media would have found a way to start a different conversation.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Nuge counters [message #724735 is a reply to message #724732 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 22:38

Adam
Messages: 6819
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:20

He's being too nice. Taking some responsibility after taking heat for his comments. I would have loved more of a finger directly pointed at management for creating a toxic environment with no support. This story got a lot of traction. It's not marginal NHLer Liro Pakarinen or an AHL buried Sheldon Souray speaking out. It's the previous captain of the Oilers. Now all of the focus is on partying, who wasn't trying hard in practice, and whether Ference was right to say those things.

Who am I kidding though. Even if Ference only said "Kevin Lowe, MacT, and their friends are all the worst people to lead an NHL organization", the media would have found a way to start a different conversation.

It sure would be nice to have someone just SAY IT. I don't understand why those guys are sacred cows. Yeah, they played here, and they were decent players on a successful and beloved team...but it doesn't work with them running this ship. That should just be clear to everyone. They need professional management, not a bunch of former players who have no useful skills to do the jobs they've been promoted in to.

Tell them we're grateful for their service, they have free attendance for life to games, and then pack their things in boxes and escort them out of the office!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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