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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702799 is a reply to message #702797 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Jay wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 11:03

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:46

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:39

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:25

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:11

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:49


I believe the Oilers will be obligated to protect him when the Aeros come on board! It really is a fantastic contract. We'll be muttering for a couple years after Chia is fired about his gift of Russell that keeps on giving (like Tambo trading Rieder or MacTavish destroy Dubnyk or Tambo signing Belanger or Lowe signing everyone but the impact players in 2006 or Chia trading for Reinhart or the entire regime breaking Schultz or Lowe demanding Comrie pay back 3 million dollars or Chia singing Lucic or the regime wasting Hall or Tambo firing Renney or MacTavishing firing Krueger by Skype or Lowe hiring MacTavish or MacTavish hiring Eakins or Eakins existing or Chia trading the Nuge). You know, those things.


This post was so fun, I'm going to quote myself and do a Part Deux:

...or MacTavish playing goaltender roulette that one season or MacTavish signing everything 7th defenseman whose name he remembered (Grebeshkov came back in 2013-14) or Lowe signing Jesse Boulerice or Lowe's return for Smyth or Lowe trading Brodziak (who is still in the league!) or McTavish's love affair with Toby Peterson or Pat Quinn's use of Jean Francois Jacques or Lowe's handling of Souray or Lowe signing Patrick O'Sullivan or Zack Stortini playing 256 games with the Oilers or who signed Cam Barker when Cam Barker literally couldn't skate or OMG I had totally forgotten about Ben Eager, who was signed the same day as Belanger, Darcy Hordichuk, and Cam Barker! or MacTavish telling Gagner he wouldn't trade him only to trade him at his lowest possible value or Chia trading Eberle for dimes on the dollar or Tambo trading for Jerrad effing Smithson at the deadline while actually in a playoff race or...



You're forgetting Pat Quinn's use of Ryan Stone as 2nd line winger...easy to miss when you have JFJ on first line.

Pretty sure Boulerice was a quick waiver pickup?

And O'Sullivan was Tambo's first big move. Traded Erik Cole for him just at the point where Cole started to play well...

What about MacTavish promising to trade Horcoff and Hemsky, then finding that when you do that, teams offer pennies on the dollar, then declaring Hemsky wasn't on the trade market and then publicly marketing him at the trade deadline and getting pennies on the dollar?

Or the Jeff Petry "Show-me-before-you-turn-UFA" contract, followed up quickly with the healthy scratch so we can play 19 year old Darnell Nurse in his first game against the defending Cup Champs and get fed our lunch, then don't even talk to Petry's camp about a contract until his agent publicly calls out the team for not doing it...then trading him too for pennies on the dollar?

When talking about coach axings, I'm still not sure which is worse - the Skype or asking Renney to write an essay about why he should keep his job...

What about the video they sent to Dany Heatley to try to convince him he really DID want to come play in Edmonton, that somehow failed to convince him this was a better landing spot than San Jose, but yet somehow managed to confirm to all three current Oilers that the team was willing to trade them...

In hindsight, can you blame Heatley for not wanting to come?

I really wish there was a MSM member with a set of balls who could do a full unraveling of everything that happened from 2000 onward when Lowe somehow assumed control of this team.


Apparently the EIG came very close to walking away from Lowe once...

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/ kevin-lowes-new-contract

Imagine what happens if they let Lowe walk in 2007 and replace him with someone competent?


Lol is Lowe a hypnotist or something?

Coming off a botched trade off one of the teams best players and franchise worst losing streak - but he needed a pat on the back and a fat contract extension to make him feel warm and fuzzy.

GTF out of here.

I mean he should have been fired after the Comrie/Perry fiasco but to think they could have salvaged the last decade with one move...but somehow he got the most powerfull guys on the board eating out of his hand as usual.


At the time we (the fans) were fully drinking the kool-aid. There where signs the team was in huge decline from the retrospectively very good teams that Sather build in the late 90's. The small market excuse was still being used and believed so any positive sign was seen as evidence the Oilers way was working. It took me until 2008 to notice the point stagnation from 1999 (Sather's last year) to 2004 despite the introduction of bonus points and expansion teams. We blamed the market, we knew the Oilers had the smartest men in the room, and we accepted no dissent. This belief was confirmed during those two magical months in 2006 when we all forgot that team was awful until March and every marketable future asset was sold.

The decade of darkness that followed could not have happened without 7 years of incompetence and decline masterminded by one of the "top five GMs in the league". The Oilers got what they deserved and, frankly, so did the fans.

[Updated on: Fri, 17 November 2017 11:23]


East of the Rockies and west of the rest.

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702807 is a reply to message #702799 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 11:21

At the time we (the fans) were fully drinking the kool-aid. There where signs the team was in huge decline from the retrospectively very good teams that Sather build in the late 90's. The small market excuse was still being used and believed so any positive sign was seen as evidence the Oilers way was working. It took me until 2008 to notice the point stagnation from 1999 (Sather's last year) to 2004 despite the introduction of bonus points and expansion teams. We blamed the market, we knew the Oilers had the smartest men in the room, and we accepted no dissent. This belief was confirmed during those two magical months in 2006 when we all forgot that team was awful until March and every marketable future asset was sold.

The decade of darkness that followed could not have happened without 7 years of incompetence and decline masterminded by one of the "top five GMs in the league". The Oilers got what they deserved and, frankly, so did the fans.


I think there's a bunch of elements. Teams had always done fine by promoting former checking line players to team exec roles, because almost everyone else also hired former players. There was a long period where multiple teams had GMs who were also coaches (including Sather with the Oilers).

It's conspicuous when teams went a different direction. The Habs used Selke and then Pollock as their GM through the 50s, 60s and 70s...and won 18 Cups including runs of 5 in a row and 4 in a row. Neither of them played high level hockey, but both had managerial skills beyond that of their peers. Pollock's famous jockeying to get Guy Lafleur as the first overall pick is legendary.

Sather was solid here, even in managing a team that had a serious budget issue, and was competing with teams that could spent three times as much. He had an eye for talent, and he was able to get enough decent young players in deals to keep the team somewhat competitive for most of his time here.

Looking back now, Lowe's rise looks ridiculous.

1997-98 - plays his final NHL season, but retires due to vertigo after a concussion.
1998-99 - Assistant Coach
1999-00 - Head Coach
2000-01 - General Manager

What did he learn in his two years coaching that would prepare him for negotiating contracts (which was becoming a more difficult thing constantly through that period)? Where would he have learned how to negotiate trades?

Still, at least there was a somewhat level playing field. Teams hired former players to be top execs, because that's what everyone else did. No one thought about looking for the next Sam Pollock when you could reward a guy who'd played really hard for your team for many years.

And he was up against other former players like Larry Pleau of the St. Louis Blues...who took his team on a steady downward path through the early 2000s. Faced with his own budget constraints, Pleau gifted Lowe his one lifeline in his GM career, sending Pronger to the Oilers for Brewer, Woywitka (finally that Comrie deal pays off!) and Lynch.

Former player Mike Milbury gave up Peca for Mike York the next day.

Former player and colour analyst Dale Tallon, in his rookie season as GM dealt us Jaro Spacek for Tony Salmelainen.

Former player Mike O'Connell gave up Samsonov for a pick (Milan Lucic!) and Marty Reasoner.

And finally former player Doug Risebrough gave us Roloson for a pick (Trevor Lewis).

Despite the terrible handling of Comrie, and the downward slide of the franchise post-Sather, there may have even been an argument that Lowe was not in the bottom third of the league for GMs back then...

But the hockey world has evolved since then and you see many more professional managers, or people at least surrounding themselves with other execs from different backgrounds, and the salary cap made numbers a lot more important. Other teams learned that quicker than the Oilers. We've still got essentially the same braintrust a decade later plus or minus a couple guys. Yes, they all have different titles, but that's only to insulate them from the calls for their head. If there were still an Oil Change, I imagine you'd see them all sitting in the room with Chiarelli jumping up and down that Jussi Jokinen wants to come to Edmonton because he really gets what we're doing here, and that Lucic believes so much that he wants max years AND a no-move!




"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireChiarelli #FireBobbyNicks #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland #FireTippett

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702810 is a reply to message #702807 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jay  is currently offline Jay
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Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 12:52

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 11:21

At the time we (the fans) were fully drinking the kool-aid. There where signs the team was in huge decline from the retrospectively very good teams that Sather build in the late 90's. The small market excuse was still being used and believed so any positive sign was seen as evidence the Oilers way was working. It took me until 2008 to notice the point stagnation from 1999 (Sather's last year) to 2004 despite the introduction of bonus points and expansion teams. We blamed the market, we knew the Oilers had the smartest men in the room, and we accepted no dissent. This belief was confirmed during those two magical months in 2006 when we all forgot that team was awful until March and every marketable future asset was sold.

The decade of darkness that followed could not have happened without 7 years of incompetence and decline masterminded by one of the "top five GMs in the league". The Oilers got what they deserved and, frankly, so did the fans.


I think there's a bunch of elements. Teams had always done fine by promoting former checking line players to team exec roles, because almost everyone else also hired former players. There was a long period where multiple teams had GMs who were also coaches (including Sather with the Oilers).

It's conspicuous when teams went a different direction. The Habs used Selke and then Pollock as their GM through the 50s, 60s and 70s...and won 18 Cups including runs of 5 in a row and 4 in a row. Neither of them played high level hockey, but both had managerial skills beyond that of their peers. Pollock's famous jockeying to get Guy Lafleur as the first overall pick is legendary.

Sather was solid here, even in managing a team that had a serious budget issue, and was competing with teams that could spent three times as much. He had an eye for talent, and he was able to get enough decent young players in deals to keep the team somewhat competitive for most of his time here.

Looking back now, Lowe's rise looks ridiculous.

1997-98 - plays his final NHL season, but retires due to vertigo after a concussion.
1998-99 - Assistant Coach
1999-00 - Head Coach
2000-01 - General Manager

What did he learn in his two years coaching that would prepare him for negotiating contracts (which was becoming a more difficult thing constantly through that period)? Where would he have learned how to negotiate trades?

Still, at least there was a somewhat level playing field. Teams hired former players to be top execs, because that's what everyone else did. No one thought about looking for the next Sam Pollock when you could reward a guy who'd played really hard for your team for many years.

And he was up against other former players like Larry Pleau of the St. Louis Blues...who took his team on a steady downward path through the early 2000s. Faced with his own budget constraints, Pleau gifted Lowe his one lifeline in his GM career, sending Pronger to the Oilers for Brewer, Woywitka (finally that Comrie deal pays off!) and Lynch.

Former player Mike Milbury gave up Peca for Mike York the next day.

Former player and colour analyst Dale Tallon, in his rookie season as GM dealt us Jaro Spacek for Tony Salmelainen.

Former player Mike O'Connell gave up Samsonov for a pick (Milan Lucic!) and Marty Reasoner.

And finally former player Doug Risebrough gave us Roloson for a pick (Trevor Lewis).

Despite the terrible handling of Comrie, and the downward slide of the franchise post-Sather, there may have even been an argument that Lowe was not in the bottom third of the league for GMs back then...

But the hockey world has evolved since then and you see many more professional managers, or people at least surrounding themselves with other execs from different backgrounds, and the salary cap made numbers a lot more important. Other teams learned that quicker than the Oilers. We've still got essentially the same braintrust a decade later plus or minus a couple guys. Yes, they all have different titles, but that's only to insulate them from the calls for their head. If there were still an Oil Change, I imagine you'd see them all sitting in the room with Chiarelli jumping up and down that Jussi Jokinen wants to come to Edmonton because he really gets what we're doing here, and that Lucic believes so much that he wants max years AND a no-move!




its an interesting point. You would think that now our current Harvard grad professional manager should be able to take full advantage of guys like..well Garth Snow.

Then again, like you said, I'd be pretty confident in asserting that - Oilers spin notwithstanding - Chia isn't exactly the only guy in that room making decisions.



"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702813 is a reply to message #702810 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Jay wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 12:59


its an interesting point. You would think that now our current Harvard grad professional manager should be able to take full advantage of guys like..well Garth Snow.

Then again, like you said, I'd be pretty confident in asserting that - Oilers spin notwithstanding - Chia isn't exactly the only guy in that room making decisions.


It was one of the reasons I was excited about Chia originally. He'd studied at Harvard, he has a law degree with University of Ottawa, he briefly was an agent, he'd scouted and then understudied in management with the Sens.

But even at Harvard there's going to be some that don't know how to negotiate and what we've seen from Panicky Pete doesn't give me a lot of confidence he is good at that element. And he's surrounded by a bunch of nincompoops who've demonstrated their incompetence here for ages and never get fired for it.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireChiarelli #FireBobbyNicks #FireKeithGretzky #FireKenHolland #FireTippett

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702874 is a reply to message #702783 ]
Sat, 18 November 2017 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xombie  is currently offline Xombie
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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:39

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:25

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:11

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:49


I believe the Oilers will be obligated to protect him when the Aeros come on board! It really is a fantastic contract. We'll be muttering for a couple years after Chia is fired about his gift of Russell that keeps on giving (like Tambo trading Rieder or MacTavish destroy Dubnyk or Tambo signing Belanger or Lowe signing everyone but the impact players in 2006 or Chia trading for Reinhart or the entire regime breaking Schultz or Lowe demanding Comrie pay back 3 million dollars or Chia singing Lucic or the regime wasting Hall or Tambo firing Renney or MacTavishing firing Krueger by Skype or Lowe hiring MacTavish or MacTavish hiring Eakins or Eakins existing or Chia trading the Nuge). You know, those things.


This post was so fun, I'm going to quote myself and do a Part Deux:

...or MacTavish playing goaltender roulette that one season or MacTavish signing everything 7th defenseman whose name he remembered (Grebeshkov came back in 2013-14) or Lowe signing Jesse Boulerice or Lowe's return for Smyth or Lowe trading Brodziak (who is still in the league!) or McTavish's love affair with Toby Peterson or Pat Quinn's use of Jean Francois Jacques or Lowe's handling of Souray or Lowe signing Patrick O'Sullivan or Zack Stortini playing 256 games with the Oilers or who signed Cam Barker when Cam Barker literally couldn't skate or OMG I had totally forgotten about Ben Eager, who was signed the same day as Belanger, Darcy Hordichuk, and Cam Barker! or MacTavish telling Gagner he wouldn't trade him only to trade him at his lowest possible value or Chia trading Eberle for dimes on the dollar or Tambo trading for Jerrad effing Smithson at the deadline while actually in a playoff race or...



You're forgetting Pat Quinn's use of Ryan Stone as 2nd line winger...easy to miss when you have JFJ on first line.

Pretty sure Boulerice was a quick waiver pickup?

And O'Sullivan was Tambo's first big move. Traded Erik Cole for him just at the point where Cole started to play well...

What about MacTavish promising to trade Horcoff and Hemsky, then finding that when you do that, teams offer pennies on the dollar, then declaring Hemsky wasn't on the trade market and then publicly marketing him at the trade deadline and getting pennies on the dollar?

Or the Jeff Petry "Show-me-before-you-turn-UFA" contract, followed up quickly with the healthy scratch so we can play 19 year old Darnell Nurse in his first game against the defending Cup Champs and get fed our lunch, then don't even talk to Petry's camp about a contract until his agent publicly calls out the team for not doing it...then trading him too for pennies on the dollar?

When talking about coach axings, I'm still not sure which is worse - the Skype or asking Renney to write an essay about why he should keep his job...

What about the video they sent to Dany Heatley to try to convince him he really DID want to come play in Edmonton, that somehow failed to convince him this was a better landing spot than San Jose, but yet somehow managed to confirm to all three current Oilers that the team was willing to trade them...

In hindsight, can you blame Heatley for not wanting to come?

I really wish there was a MSM member with a set of balls who could do a full unraveling of everything that happened from 2000 onward when Lowe somehow assumed control of this team.


I think it would be great if you guys could put together a book outlining just how bad this franchise has been since 2000. Like Terry Jones's hockey knights book about the 80's.



Bob Marley and the (Hartford) Wailers.

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702875 is a reply to message #702874 ]
Sat, 18 November 2017 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Xombie wrote on Sat, 18 November 2017 12:48

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:39

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:25

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:11

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:49


I believe the Oilers will be obligated to protect him when the Aeros come on board! It really is a fantastic contract. We'll be muttering for a couple years after Chia is fired about his gift of Russell that keeps on giving (like Tambo trading Rieder or MacTavish destroy Dubnyk or Tambo signing Belanger or Lowe signing everyone but the impact players in 2006 or Chia trading for Reinhart or the entire regime breaking Schultz or Lowe demanding Comrie pay back 3 million dollars or Chia singing Lucic or the regime wasting Hall or Tambo firing Renney or MacTavishing firing Krueger by Skype or Lowe hiring MacTavish or MacTavish hiring Eakins or Eakins existing or Chia trading the Nuge). You know, those things.


This post was so fun, I'm going to quote myself and do a Part Deux:

...or MacTavish playing goaltender roulette that one season or MacTavish signing everything 7th defenseman whose name he remembered (Grebeshkov came back in 2013-14) or Lowe signing Jesse Boulerice or Lowe's return for Smyth or Lowe trading Brodziak (who is still in the league!) or McTavish's love affair with Toby Peterson or Pat Quinn's use of Jean Francois Jacques or Lowe's handling of Souray or Lowe signing Patrick O'Sullivan or Zack Stortini playing 256 games with the Oilers or who signed Cam Barker when Cam Barker literally couldn't skate or OMG I had totally forgotten about Ben Eager, who was signed the same day as Belanger, Darcy Hordichuk, and Cam Barker! or MacTavish telling Gagner he wouldn't trade him only to trade him at his lowest possible value or Chia trading Eberle for dimes on the dollar or Tambo trading for Jerrad effing Smithson at the deadline while actually in a playoff race or...



You're forgetting Pat Quinn's use of Ryan Stone as 2nd line winger...easy to miss when you have JFJ on first line.

Pretty sure Boulerice was a quick waiver pickup?

And O'Sullivan was Tambo's first big move. Traded Erik Cole for him just at the point where Cole started to play well...

What about MacTavish promising to trade Horcoff and Hemsky, then finding that when you do that, teams offer pennies on the dollar, then declaring Hemsky wasn't on the trade market and then publicly marketing him at the trade deadline and getting pennies on the dollar?

Or the Jeff Petry "Show-me-before-you-turn-UFA" contract, followed up quickly with the healthy scratch so we can play 19 year old Darnell Nurse in his first game against the defending Cup Champs and get fed our lunch, then don't even talk to Petry's camp about a contract until his agent publicly calls out the team for not doing it...then trading him too for pennies on the dollar?

When talking about coach axings, I'm still not sure which is worse - the Skype or asking Renney to write an essay about why he should keep his job...

What about the video they sent to Dany Heatley to try to convince him he really DID want to come play in Edmonton, that somehow failed to convince him this was a better landing spot than San Jose, but yet somehow managed to confirm to all three current Oilers that the team was willing to trade them...

In hindsight, can you blame Heatley for not wanting to come?

I really wish there was a MSM member with a set of balls who could do a full unraveling of everything that happened from 2000 onward when Lowe somehow assumed control of this team.


I think it would be great if you guys could put together a book outlining just how bad this franchise has been since 2000. Like Terry Jones's hockey knights book about the 80's.



My favourite is MacTavish going to the wrong country to scout Patrick Laine. And then we as like, "Meh, when in Finland let's scout someone else."



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702781 is a reply to message #702768 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:49

PlusOne wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 08:42

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 19:30

Adam wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 18:00

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 17:06

Adam wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 16:19

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 16:06


If there is a way to get rid of Russell this summer, they need to, even if some salary has to be retained. I'd look to try and get a cheap RHD in return. Something like Russell (1.5M retained) for Alex Petrovic.



How do you solve a problem like Kris Russell?

The no-move means you can't bury him or trade him or waive him...you'd need to not only find a taker for him, but also to convince Russell that it's in his interest to move. Only way I see that being feasible at all is if the Oilers acquire another defenceman and then Russell joins Gryba in the press box for the bulk of the stretch run and playoffs. Players like to play, so that could possibly make him re-think his role on the team.

Other than that, the only way to get rid of him next summer would be a buy-out. That would be awful though. Here's the impact that would have on the Oilers:

https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout_calculator/kris-russell

Paying for him for 6 years, with a really ugly hit in year 3...


Geez, what the heck kinda contract did we give him. No matter when you guy him out there is a 3m+ cap hit in at least one of the buyout years.

Buyout with 3 years left in his deal. Cap hit in year 3 (of 6) is 3.611M
Buyout with 2 years left in his deal. Cap hit in year 2 (of 4) is 3.417M
Buyout with 1 year left in his deal. Cap hit in year 1 (of 2) is 3M

sigh. Guess it's all because of that signing bonus in year 4 of his deal.


Yep, designed to give buy-out protection.

SIGH.



Yeah, I don't think buyout is an option. But he's already a #6. If he sees his ice time and role greatly reduced, and he sees an opportunity to have a greater role and increase ice time, maybe he agrees. Especially somewhere like Florida or Nevada where the weather is awesome and the tax rate is the best in the NHL.



The best bet we have is when the expansion to Houston happens they can erase another huge mistake and take him off our hands in the expansion draft.

Oh right, no move clause, has to be protected *facepalm


I believe the Oilers will be obligated to protect him when the Aeros come on board! It really is a fantastic contract. We'll be muttering for a couple years after Chia is fired about his gift of Russell that keeps on giving (like Tambo trading Rieder or MacTavish destroy Dubnyk or Tambo signing Belanger or Lowe signing everyone but the impact players in 2006 or Chia trading for Reinhart or the entire regime breaking Schultz or Lowe demanding Comrie pay back 3 million dollars or Chia singing Lucic or the regime wasting Hall or Tambo firing Renney or MacTavishing firing Krueger by Skype or Lowe hiring MacTavish or MacTavish hiring Eakins or Eakins existing or Chia trading the Nuge). You know, those things.



If he is going to be a must protect for another expansion draft, I think you have to just buy him out and accept a brutal cap hit in 20/21. You can't lose an actual top 4 D because you're protecting Russell.



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- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

"In Brad we trust"
- All Oilers fans, Present Day

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702770 is a reply to message #702766 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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The best case scenario I see is that the Oilers end up with a defense where they have 6 guys who can play mins where it is more balanced. What I mean is instead of having a defense core where you have a top pair that plays a ton (23-24+ mins), then the second pair plays close to 20, then a 3rd pair you try and hide, you have them all play close to the same. So you aren't as worried about matching up a certain pair against a certain line because there isn't much of a drop off between any of the pairs.


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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702788 is a reply to message #702770 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:54

The best case scenario I see....


Yep and worse case scenario is Russell continues to tumble down the depth chart.
Right now he is 4th in mins played. When Sekera is back that would likely make him our number 5 this season.
As soon as this year Benning could pass him if Benning gets his game back on track.

2018/19 Unless things go off the rails for both Benning and Nurse our depth likely looks like this from best to worst;
Nurse/Sekera/Klef/Larsson as the 4 best
Benning
Russell

Bear and/or Jones

2019/20
Same 4 best
Same ? with Benning
Bear and or Jones are ready for full time top 6

Russell is as useful as Gryba

Only one year left!!!!

This completely leaves our any debate about how good/bad Russell is but the facts are in his usage. He is already being pushed out of the top 4. As soon as next year we will have a bottom pairing guy at 4 mill.

then only 2 years of him being the most expensive popcorn eater in the league




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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702818 is a reply to message #702788 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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PlusOne wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:54

The best case scenario I see....


Yep and worse case scenario is Russell continues to tumble down the depth chart.
Right now he is 4th in mins played. When Sekera is back that would likely make him our number 5 this season.
As soon as this year Benning could pass him if Benning gets his game back on track.

2018/19 Unless things go off the rails for both Benning and Nurse our depth likely looks like this from best to worst;
Nurse/Sekera/Klef/Larsson as the 4 best
Benning
Russell

Bear and/or Jones

2019/20
Same 4 best
Same ? with Benning
Bear and or Jones are ready for full time top 6

Russell is as useful as Gryba

Only one year left!!!!

This completely leaves our any debate about how good/bad Russell is but the facts are in his usage. He is already being pushed out of the top 4. As soon as next year we will have a bottom pairing guy at 4 mill.

then only 2 years of him being the most expensive popcorn eater in the league



I am not worried about Bear or Jones in 2 seasons. This is their first pro year. I'd be shocked if either of them were ready to be first call ups by the end of next season. So MAYBE by the 19-20 season one of them will be at the point where they might play some games. By that season Russell can be traded and I think he could be moved.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702822 is a reply to message #702818 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:09

PlusOne wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:54

The best case scenario I see....


Yep and worse case scenario is Russell continues to tumble down the depth chart.
Right now he is 4th in mins played. When Sekera is back that would likely make him our number 5 this season.
As soon as this year Benning could pass him if Benning gets his game back on track.

2018/19 Unless things go off the rails for both Benning and Nurse our depth likely looks like this from best to worst;
Nurse/Sekera/Klef/Larsson as the 4 best
Benning
Russell

Bear and/or Jones

2019/20
Same 4 best
Same ? with Benning
Bear and or Jones are ready for full time top 6

Russell is as useful as Gryba

Only one year left!!!!

This completely leaves our any debate about how good/bad Russell is but the facts are in his usage. He is already being pushed out of the top 4. As soon as next year we will have a bottom pairing guy at 4 mill.

then only 2 years of him being the most expensive popcorn eater in the league



I am not worried about Bear or Jones in 2 seasons. This is their first pro year. I'd be shocked if either of them were ready to be first call ups by the end of next season. So MAYBE by the 19-20 season one of them will be at the point where they might play some games. By that season Russell can be traded and I think he could be moved.


There will probably be teams lining up to take on another $4MM price point defenceman who plays third pairing minutes when he's not being healthy scratched.

Just like they snapped up Mark Fayne and Andrew Ference!



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702823 is a reply to message #702822 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:09

PlusOne wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:54

The best case scenario I see....


Yep and worse case scenario is Russell continues to tumble down the depth chart.
Right now he is 4th in mins played. When Sekera is back that would likely make him our number 5 this season.
As soon as this year Benning could pass him if Benning gets his game back on track.

2018/19 Unless things go off the rails for both Benning and Nurse our depth likely looks like this from best to worst;
Nurse/Sekera/Klef/Larsson as the 4 best
Benning
Russell

Bear and/or Jones

2019/20
Same 4 best
Same ? with Benning
Bear and or Jones are ready for full time top 6

Russell is as useful as Gryba

Only one year left!!!!

This completely leaves our any debate about how good/bad Russell is but the facts are in his usage. He is already being pushed out of the top 4. As soon as next year we will have a bottom pairing guy at 4 mill.

then only 2 years of him being the most expensive popcorn eater in the league



I am not worried about Bear or Jones in 2 seasons. This is their first pro year. I'd be shocked if either of them were ready to be first call ups by the end of next season. So MAYBE by the 19-20 season one of them will be at the point where they might play some games. By that season Russell can be traded and I think he could be moved.


There will probably be teams lining up to take on another $4MM price point defenceman who plays third pairing minutes when he's not being healthy scratched.

Just like they snapped up Mark Fayne and Andrew Ference!

So Russell will suffer a mysterious hip injury next March and never been seen again? Or will he develop veritgo and be made the new general manager?



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702829 is a reply to message #702823 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 14:41

Or will he develop veritgo and be made the new general manager?


I really feel like this is the best case scenario at this point.



Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702824 is a reply to message #702822 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:09

PlusOne wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 09:54

The best case scenario I see....


Yep and worse case scenario is Russell continues to tumble down the depth chart.
Right now he is 4th in mins played. When Sekera is back that would likely make him our number 5 this season.
As soon as this year Benning could pass him if Benning gets his game back on track.

2018/19 Unless things go off the rails for both Benning and Nurse our depth likely looks like this from best to worst;
Nurse/Sekera/Klef/Larsson as the 4 best
Benning
Russell

Bear and/or Jones

2019/20
Same 4 best
Same ? with Benning
Bear and or Jones are ready for full time top 6

Russell is as useful as Gryba

Only one year left!!!!

This completely leaves our any debate about how good/bad Russell is but the facts are in his usage. He is already being pushed out of the top 4. As soon as next year we will have a bottom pairing guy at 4 mill.

then only 2 years of him being the most expensive popcorn eater in the league



I am not worried about Bear or Jones in 2 seasons. This is their first pro year. I'd be shocked if either of them were ready to be first call ups by the end of next season. So MAYBE by the 19-20 season one of them will be at the point where they might play some games. By that season Russell can be traded and I think he could be moved.


There will probably be teams lining up to take on another $4MM price point defenceman who plays third pairing minutes when he's not being healthy scratched.

Just like they snapped up Mark Fayne and Andrew Ference!



Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702843 is a reply to message #702824 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #702844 is a reply to message #702843 ]
Fri, 17 November 2017 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Hate to say it, but it's looking like we are gonna deal with what the Pens did after Crosby/Malkin's 2nd deals started. Only very likely without the cup the year before, and with less regular season success for a while.

Gonna be some years of treading water and hoping the cap keeps going up. Don't let Chia make any more big trades moving home grown high end talent out of town now, try to preserve good players and build up smaller assets. And hopefully the next GM can come in and use the built up assets to get a skill injection making use of a higher cap. This is what cap hell looks like. Chia brought it early by GMing this year as if McDavid is making 10M already.

[Updated on: Fri, 17 November 2017 18:14]


"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703029 is a reply to message #702843 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703031 is a reply to message #703029 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


Agree with all the points on other teams. The cap system is going to give them all a big slap eventually, if not already. Except maybe Toronto since Lou's mob connections usually take your family hostage during negotiations.

That's why it's important to have the best possible management and coaching. You need to extract every speck you can out of your remaining cap space, and all of the marginal players you had no choice but to fill out your roster with.

I think at this point no one is really confident we have either of those important positions covered. Chia couldn't even properly manage this year with McDavid still on his ELC. He downgraded the roster, added another horrible contract that we will wish we could unload as early as...well, weeks ago actually. And he just sat on cap space and doesn't even seem concerned.

[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 10:27]


"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

"In Brad we trust"
- All Oilers fans, Present Day

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703041 is a reply to message #703031 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


Agree with all the points on other teams. The cap system is going to give them all a big slap eventually, if not already. Except maybe Toronto since Lou's mob connections usually take your family hostage during negotiations.

That's why it's important to have the best possible management and coaching. You need to extract every speck you can out of your remaining cap space, and all of the marginal players you had no choice but to fill out your roster with.

I think at this point no one is really confident we have either of those important positions covered. Chia couldn't even properly manage this year with McDavid still on his ELC. He downgraded the roster, added another horrible contract that we will wish we could unload as early as...well, weeks ago actually. And he just sat on cap space and doesn't even seem concerned.


I am on record as saying that while I think Hall is a really good player, I don't see the team turning around if he is here over Larsson. I think Larsson has a HUGE impact and I don't see how you can make any changes by keeping all the players who lost all those games, especially the main guy. I am on record as saying I don't mind the money, I just don't like the term on Lucic's contract but I don't think the team turns around without him and someone else give Lucic that contract.

When it comes to Russell. You don't sign him on a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. You aren't signing a guy remotely capable to play in your top 4 for less than 4 mill and they aren't signing for 1 year. If the big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman making 4 mill and what it does to your cap. Trading for Hamonic an who makes 3.85 mill doesn't help you with your cap problem.

So the only alternative in my opinion is to basically stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4. You pray they can keep you in it and pray that when Sekera comes back he will get up to speed real fast which is unlikely. In your 3rd pair, you have dirt cheap, lower tier guys who you know you will have the shelter, you pray they can play over their heads and pray they don't completely destroy you when they are out there.

[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 11:27]


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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703042 is a reply to message #703041 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:23

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


Agree with all the points on other teams. The cap system is going to give them all a big slap eventually, if not already. Except maybe Toronto since Lou's mob connections usually take your family hostage during negotiations.

That's why it's important to have the best possible management and coaching. You need to extract every speck you can out of your remaining cap space, and all of the marginal players you had no choice but to fill out your roster with.

I think at this point no one is really confident we have either of those important positions covered. Chia couldn't even properly manage this year with McDavid still on his ELC. He downgraded the roster, added another horrible contract that we will wish we could unload as early as...well, weeks ago actually. And he just sat on cap space and doesn't even seem concerned.


I see the argument about managing McDavid's last year of his ELC in properly all the time. I am on record as saying that while I think Hall is a really good player, I don't see the team turning around if he is here over Larsson. I think Larsson has a HUGE impact and while it's not Hall's fault, I don't see how you can make any changes by keeping all the players who lost all those games, especially the main guy. I am on record as saying I don't mind the money, I just don't like the term on Lucic's contract but I don't think the team turns around without him.

When it comes to Russell and managing McDavid's last year of his ELC. You don't sign Russell for a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. You aren't signing a guy remotely capable to play in your top 4 for less than 4 mill and they aren't signing for 1 year. The big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman making 4 mill and it will make it harder to resign some guys next season. Trading for Hamonic who who's a 4-5 dman who makes 3.85 mill so 142k less than Russell doesn't help you with your problem of resigning guys.

So if you don't like Russell on the team, the only alternative in my opinion is to basically stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4. You pray they can keep you in it and pray that when Sekera comes back he will get up to speed real fast which is unlikely. In your 3rd pair, you have dirt cheap, lower tier guys who you know you will have the shelter, you pray they can play over their heads and pray they don't completely destroy you when they are out there.




I don't think no Russell means you stick with Klef-Larsson and Nurse-Benning. although that is our top 4 now anyways since RUssell is mailing it in. I think it means you have 9M of cap space to try to get a proper 2nd pair RHD that will not only help you while Sek is out, but help you for years to come when Sek is back. Chia had to do that GM thing where he gets a player not already on his lap.

I wasn't bringing up the Hall trade personally. I rarely go back there. I'm happy with Larsson. That was one pass I will give Chia, because it did make the team more complete. But, he totally screwed the pooch this last summer. Maybe we are struggling anyways with Talbot not being able to put multiple games together where he isn't garbage, but even if Talbot was better, we are still ni a tough spot with our D group beyond the 1st pair, and with cap space starting next year (I guess this year too since we decided to ban usage of ~5M) with possibly inept management that isn't going to be able to navigate the tight pinch of the cap.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703049 is a reply to message #703042 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:23

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


Agree with all the points on other teams. The cap system is going to give them all a big slap eventually, if not already. Except maybe Toronto since Lou's mob connections usually take your family hostage during negotiations.

That's why it's important to have the best possible management and coaching. You need to extract every speck you can out of your remaining cap space, and all of the marginal players you had no choice but to fill out your roster with.

I think at this point no one is really confident we have either of those important positions covered. Chia couldn't even properly manage this year with McDavid still on his ELC. He downgraded the roster, added another horrible contract that we will wish we could unload as early as...well, weeks ago actually. And he just sat on cap space and doesn't even seem concerned.


I see the argument about managing McDavid's last year of his ELC in properly all the time. I am on record as saying that while I think Hall is a really good player, I don't see the team turning around if he is here over Larsson. I think Larsson has a HUGE impact and while it's not Hall's fault, I don't see how you can make any changes by keeping all the players who lost all those games, especially the main guy. I am on record as saying I don't mind the money, I just don't like the term on Lucic's contract but I don't think the team turns around without him.

When it comes to Russell and managing McDavid's last year of his ELC. You don't sign Russell for a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. You aren't signing a guy remotely capable to play in your top 4 for less than 4 mill and they aren't signing for 1 year. The big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman making 4 mill and it will make it harder to resign some guys next season. Trading for Hamonic who who's a 4-5 dman who makes 3.85 mill so 142k less than Russell doesn't help you with your problem of resigning guys.

So if you don't like Russell on the team, the only alternative in my opinion is to basically stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4. You pray they can keep you in it and pray that when Sekera comes back he will get up to speed real fast which is unlikely. In your 3rd pair, you have dirt cheap, lower tier guys who you know you will have the shelter, you pray they can play over their heads and pray they don't completely destroy you when they are out there.




I don't think no Russell means you stick with Klef-Larsson and Nurse-Benning. although that is our top 4 now anyways since RUssell is mailing it in. I think it means you have 9M of cap space to try to get a proper 2nd pair RHD that will not only help you while Sek is out, but help you for years to come when Sek is back. Chia had to do that GM thing where he gets a player not already on his lap.

I wasn't bringing up the Hall trade personally. I rarely go back there. I'm happy with Larsson. That was one pass I will give Chia, because it did make the team more complete. But, he totally screwed the pooch this last summer. Maybe we are struggling anyways with Talbot not being able to put multiple games together where he isn't garbage, but even if Talbot was better, we are still ni a tough spot with our D group beyond the 1st pair, and with cap space starting next year (I guess this year too since we decided to ban usage of ~5M) with possibly inept management that isn't going to be able to navigate the tight pinch of the cap.


My point is I hear all the time how Chia mismanaged McDavid's last year of his ELC and the Russell contract being one of the prime suspects from this past offseason. I have heard it stated all the time how the Russell contract as I said makes it harder to resign some guys - which it does. I have even heard it say "Signing Russell means you are giving up Nuge". So if that is all true, then how can the Oilers bring in anyone in Russell's spot. If you go out and bring in an upgrade on Russell, then you are most likely spending as much or more money than you are paying Russell. So that doesn't help you resigning guys or keeping Nuge. If they had of kept Eberle for one more year, that doesn't help them address the defense or Russell's spot. I don't think the Oilers are a lot better if they have Eberle but have Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse - Benning as your top 4. Klebom and Bennings struggles have nothing to do with the wingers lack of scoring. If they had of used Eberle as part of a package to get a better dman, that maybe addresses the defense to a degree but now they are down a forward. They got Strome back in the Eberle trade. If you are bringing in a dman with Eberle, it will cost you Eberle + and you are probably bringing in way more than 4 mill in salary back and the guy is probably signed for longer than 1 yr. As an example (i doubt this trade was even available) but I have a hard time believing you are trading Eberle + to get 1 yr of Mike Green. Or Eberle + to get you Barrie. Barrie might address your D but you have saved zero on the cap, put yourself in worse shape on the cap and you still have to replace Eberle's spot at forward.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703046 is a reply to message #703041 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 12:23



When it comes to Russell. You don't sign him on a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. You aren't signing a guy remotely capable to play in your top 4 for less than 4 mill and they aren't signing for 1 year. If the big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman making 4 mill and what it does to your cap. Trading for Hamonic an who makes 3.85 mill doesn't help you with your cap problem.

So the only alternative in my opinion is to basically stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4. You pray they can keep you in it and pray that when Sekera comes back he will get up to speed real fast which is unlikely. In your 3rd pair, you have dirt cheap, lower tier guys who you know you will have the shelter, you pray they can play over their heads and pray they don't completely destroy you when they are out there.




I know everyone here has gone in circles about Russell and the cap space for Eberle repeatedly but as long as you keep repeating these things, some of which are factually incorrect, we will have to keep replying...
"You don't sign him on a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. "
Great, the team has to be willing to walk away from a contract if it doesnt help them, let someone else jump on that grenade

"If the big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman"
He is already a 5-6 dman

" stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4."
Do you think if that was our top 4, we kept Eberle, and signed another 4-6 d'man for one year at less than Russell the team would be worse TODAY?

"You pray they can keep you in it "
Given the moves that he maid this exactly what Chia was doing, that and everyone who had a career year would replicate it and that young players would ALL progress

All of us that hated Chia's moves this offseason, or lack thereof, seem to have nailed what might happen to this team. IE worst case scenario.
PC's job is to be better than us. To protect against worst case scenario.

How anyone can still defend him and the moves he has made.
Note I left out Hall for Larsson as I have accepted that one given it actually helped the team




[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 11:52]


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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703050 is a reply to message #703046 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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PlusOne wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:50


I know everyone here has gone in circles about Russell and the cap space for Eberle repeatedly but as long as you keep repeating these things, some of which are factually incorrect, we will have to keep replying...
"You don't sign him on a shorter contract, he gets it elsewhere. "
Great, the team has to be willing to walk away from a contract if it doesnt help them, let someone else jump on that grenade

"If the big issue with Russell is that he is a 4-5 dman"
He is already a 5-6 dman

" stand pat and role the dice with Klefbom - Larsson, Nurse- Benning as your top 4."
Do you think if that was our top 4, we kept Eberle, and signed another 4-6 d'man for one year at less than Russell the team would be worse TODAY?

"You pray they can keep you in it "
Given the moves that he maid this exactly what Chia was doing, that and everyone who had a career year would replicate it and that young players would ALL progress

All of us that hated Chia's moves this offseason, or lack thereof, seem to have nailed what might happen to this team. IE worst case scenario.
PC's job is to be better than us. To protect against worst case scenario.

How anyone can still defend him and the moves he has made.
Note I left out Hall for Larsson as I have accepted that one given it actually helped the team



So many ridiculous arguments as to why they NEEDED Russell. You see this from the MSM in Edmonton too.

"He would have got it from someone!" - Well, he didn't last summer, despite thinking he was going to get a big payday. He went until October 1 without any contract and had to sign a one-year deal with the Oilers. (Also, this applies to Eric Gryba, who inexplicably the Oilers couldn't possibly let test the free agent waters, despite getting no offers the year before, coming to camp on a PTO, passing through waivers unscathed, playing a month in the minors, and then being healthy scratched for all but 3 playoff games...)

That's not even getting in to the fact that this handcuffs the team for years to come with a guy who's done nothing to deserve it. Someone on twitter did some work on 30+ defencemen with NMC in their long-term deal...Russell's stands out for how bad it is.

"You can't find defencemen easily." - Well, other than the fact that Vegas has been trying unsuccessfully to off-load defencemen all summer, and teams like Chicago manage to pick up good defencemen for dirt cheap late in the summer. And there were about a dozen depth defencemen traded this summer, and there were several more signed to deals that were not 4x4 with a NMC.


There was more possibilities for movement this year than just about any other one because of the expansion draft, and yet the Oilers took the easy way out. They filled up the bulk of their roster before free agency even started, and they showed no ability to negotiate contracts with any foresight in to cap management. This despite having a GM that has already been through the hell of dealing with poor management of the salary cap and the consequences of that.

Trading Eberle for cap considerations makes more sense if you don't lock up the cap savings for longer and with a less moveable asset who's older and crappier.

It's a complete botch job.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703075 is a reply to message #703050 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 13:04



It's a complete botch job.


The good news is that when I am in Edmonton near the end of the season I will be able to find really cheap tickets to a game or two.
They arent at the pre-McDavid lows yet but prices on StubHub seem to be dropping with each loss.

Yep, I am looking for any ray of sunshine in what is quickly shaping up to be yet another write off of a season.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703077 is a reply to message #703075 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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PlusOne wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 15:22

Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 13:04



It's a complete botch job.


The good news is that when I am in Edmonton near the end of the season I will be able to find really cheap tickets to a game or two.
They arent at the pre-McDavid lows yet but prices on StubHub seem to be dropping with each loss.

Yep, I am looking for any ray of sunshine in what is quickly shaping up to be yet another write off of a season.

Ah the good old days when I could find game day tickets for 10 bucks american (cheaper than an AJHL ticket) and move down into the lower bowl midway though the first.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703051 is a reply to message #703029 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


So what year do you target for the Oilers to win the Cup?



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703072 is a reply to message #703051 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 12:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 10:18

Adam wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 17:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 17 November 2017 15:45


Oh right. I forgot, you can see into the future.

Look dude, I don't have all the answers man. I am just not like some fans who seemingly want to curl up into a ball clutching their Hall or Eberle jersey and thinking the world is coming to an end.


The world isn't coming to an end...but McDavid's entry level contract is and the Oilers GM has ACTUALLY SAID he has no idea how they'll be able to stay competitive once he has two players making $21MM on the team. That's a problem since Talbot only has one more year on HIS contract after this, and we've committed long-term to Sekera, Lucic and Russell who represent $15.5MM and all can't be moved unless they agree to go.

Maroon's deal is up this summer, Benning & Nurse's ELCs are over too. There's an excellent chance that the Oilers are going to have to part with a couple more very good players at a discount because they don't have cap room to accommodate all the raises.

Hard to see how the Oilers will manage to get better next year, and balance the cap concerns. The GM has the same concerns...which suggests that they don't really have a solid plan.

So the question is this: If this is not the year the Oilers win the Stanley Cup - when is it? How many years of McDavid are going to be wasted before the team is a contender?


Here is the way I look at it. What has Pittsburgh done? They have built their teams around 2 elite, probably Hall of fame centers. The Pens shot up right away with Crosby, then went into sort of a slump for awhile partly because at the time, their contract were huge compared to the cap. It was the Hawks for about a 4-5 yr run where Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews were in their mid 20's, basically at their prime. They are falling back because they all loaded up on big contracts then got older. The Kings were in there for a bit, again when Kopitar, Doughty, Carter were in their mid 20's. Then they all loaded up on big contracts and got older. Kopitar at 30 making 10 mill is brutal. Doughty makes 7 for one more year, What will he get 8 or 9? Quick turns 32 in Jan. Goalies start to drop off shortly after. Then as the cap has risen, the Pens shot back up in the last 3- 4 yrs when Crosby and Malkin were in there mid to high 20's and all of a sudden their contracts are bargains considered how good they are and how. Crosby is 30, Malkin is 31. So as players they are getting close to the point where they are going to start declining a bit.

Then I look at the current hot teams. Tampa. Who are they riding? Stamkos 27 yrs old, in his prime making 8.5. Hedman at 26 making 7.8 in his prime. Kucherov is 24 he makes 4.76. After next season when he is top 5 in scoring 3 years in a row, what will he make? 12? All of a sudden they have 21 mill tied up in 2 forwards just like the Oilers.

I look at the Leafs who are riding high. They have Van Riemsdyk who's 28, in his prime making 4.25 mill. He's a UFA. Are you replacing his 25-30 - 60 pts for 4 mill? No way, it will cost you 6 min. They have Bozak who's 31. He's a really good 2/3 center. He makes 4.2. Are you replacing a center who can be a #2 if needed for 4.2? Probably not. Nylander is up this season for his first big deal. He had 60 pts last year, probably will get close this year. You could bridge him I guess but what's a bridge 4 on a short term? Anything longer, in Toronto it's probably a 7 at least. Then next year you have Matthews and Marner up. If Eichel gets you 10 what's Matthews worth 11 or 12? You have Marner who's on pace for close to 60 pts again. What's he going to be worth? 6-7?

Then I look at the Oilers. They paid up on Leon and McDavid. They have them locked up for 21 mil for the next 8 years. These guys aren't in their primes yet or done developing. I see the Oilers defense and the majority of the main min munchers are 25 and less making under 4.2 mill. So there is room to grow and I don't see a need to go out and get a big money dman because the majority of the guys they have are so young and aren't fully developed year. The trick is to find some cheap guys to fill in around Leon and McDavid.


So what year do you target for the Oilers to win the Cup?


In 2 seasons.

As fun as it was. I thought the Oilers doing what they did last year was not good a thing. To go from almost dead last to where they were last year was a shock and raised the expectations way too high and I think altered the Oilers plans. Chia said it himself, he didn't expect that. It would have been better if the Oilers went from almost dead last to say 9th in the West, maybe squeak in the playoffs. If you do that, you are still in development mode, you are still in improving the roster mode. When you are 2 pts out of winning the division and you pretty much got screwed from the conference finals, you are altering your thinking. All of a sudden you think your roster is better than it is and you are wanting to keep the momentum going. I personally believe that if the Oilers were say 8th or 9th, they aren't signing Russell. When you are 2 points out of a division title and got screwed out of going to the conference finals and you lose Sekera for 3/4 of the year, it doesn't matter as a fan if you hate Russell, in my mind it's pretty hard to walk away from the other half of your second pairing that got you to where they got last year. How can you as a manager say you are in WIN NOW mode with an entirely brand new second pair for 3/4 of the year? I don't see it. It doesn't mean I am a fan of Russell, it doesn't mean I like the move or agree with it but I understand the thinking to some degree.

So in 2 seasons, I see Klefbom being 25-26, Larsson being 26 so in their primes and should be established with that supposed magic number of 300 games. I see Nurse and Benning being 24 and being close to 300 games. So now you have 4 dmen in their primes with the right amount of experience. After next season, you can start to move Russell. The cap will always go up slightly, there is always teams looking to add defense and there are always going to be teams willing to take on contracts to get to the floor. As an example. The Hawks were able to trade Bickle who wasn't an NHLer to the Canes. It cost them another asset but they did it and didn't retain salary. In 2 seasons, even if you hate Russell, he's still going to be an NHLer.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703079 is a reply to message #703072 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 14:07



As fun as it was. I thought the Oilers doing what they did last year was not good a thing. To go from almost dead last to where they were last year was a shock and raised the expectations way too high and I think altered the Oilers plans. Chia said it himself, he didn't expect that. It would have been better if the Oilers went from almost dead last to say 9th in the West, maybe squeak in the playoffs. If you do that, you are still in development mode, you are still in improving the roster mode. When you are 2 pts out of winning the division and you pretty much got screwed from the conference finals, you are altering your thinking. All of a sudden you think your roster is better than it is and you are wanting to keep the momentum going. I personally believe that if the Oilers were say 8th or 9th, they aren't signing Russell. When you are 2 points out of a division title and got screwed out of going to the conference finals and you lose Sekera for 3/4 of the year, it doesn't matter as a fan if you hate Russell, in my mind it's pretty hard to walk away from the other half of your second pairing that got you to where they got last year. How can you as a manager say you are in WIN NOW mode with an entirely brand new second pair for 3/4 of the year? I don't see it. It doesn't mean I am a fan of Russell, it doesn't mean I like the move or agree with it but I understand the thinking to some degree.



I'm sorry, Chia gets paid 7 figures to do his job. If winning one playoff round against a depleted Sharks team is so emotional for him that he completely changed his strategy then he shouldn't be in that position.

And I didn't see him making a lot of moves that lead me to believe he suddenly switched to Win Now mode. He traded away his 3rd leading scorer for a 3rd liner. Then he bought out a guy who has been a useful piece and was their best fwd PKer a year earlier than necessary and didn't even use the cap space. Then knowing that his 2nd best (and at times, best) defenceman would be out for a significant time period, he decided to bring back the same group as last year + Auvitu. Win Now mode would have been trading draft picks or young players for older, but better players.

Instead, he actively made this team worse on paper. Like he literally could have made zero moves and this roster would have been in better shape.




Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703080 is a reply to message #703079 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Goose wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 16:25


I'm sorry, Chia gets paid 7 figures to do his job. If winning one playoff round against a depleted Sharks team is so emotional for him that he completely changed his strategy then he shouldn't be in that position.

And I didn't see him making a lot of moves that lead me to believe he suddenly switched to Win Now mode. He traded away his 3rd leading scorer for a 3rd liner. Then he bought out a guy who has been a useful piece and was their best fwd PKer a year earlier than necessary and didn't even use the cap space. Then knowing that his 2nd best (and at times, best) defenceman would be out for a significant time period, he decided to bring back the same group as last year + Auvitu. Win Now mode would have been trading draft picks or young players for older, but better players.

Instead, he actively made this team worse on paper. Like he literally could have made zero moves and this roster would have been in better shape.



Exactly.

Fans can be forgiven for getting a bit excited about the Oilers last Spring, but if you look at what happened, if you watched the games critically, then you shouldn't have thought that the team was as good as the hype. You also should have been left with some real questions about the coaching.

San Jose was battered coming in. Thornton was badly injured. Couture was badly injured. They gritted it out, but they are an old team that had major injuries to a couple of key players. And they still took the Oilers to six games.

Against Anaheim, it was pretty clear that A) there was a massive gulf between our defence and theirs, despite the fact that again, their defence was obliterated with injuries. You had Vaatanen and Lindholm playing on one leg each, and Bieksa out for the duration, while Fowler was also dinged up. And yet, you had that team MUCH better at disrupting the cycle and advancing the puck than the Oilers.

You also saw the Oilers fail again and again in that series to hold leads. They'd change their style and try to lock down games, only to have it blow up in their face again and again...never worse than the three goal turnaround.

In both series, you saw the other team impose its matchup on the Oilers, even when playing in Edmonton. There was no attempt to get McDavid away from Vlasic or Kesler. And you saw no response from the team to incredible mugging of McDavid in both series. While Carlyle suggested that McDavid got coddled by referees, McLellan refused to get his hands dirty at any point. He trotted out his explanations for what went wrong on every goal against, but he never said a word about goon tactics, or about bad reffing. He failed to use the tools he has to get an edge for his team.

Now if you were the GM and you were paying attention, you'd have also noticed that you lost to a team with a black-and-blue defence that couldn't beat the team in the next round, who couldn't beat the team in the final. So why would you think the team was suddenly in contention?

On top of that, the GM SPECIFICALLY said he didn't think his team was ready to compete for a Cup...that was a stupid thing to say, but if he really believed it, why would 13 games in April and May suddenly change his mind?

So you come out of those playoffs, you know you're without Sekera for months, you know this is the last year of McDavid at a cheap dollar - what should he have done?

A) Find out what McDavid was going to cost, and how much of a discount he was willing to give. I do that before I sit down with any other player. I'm certainly not signing Gryba and Russell to multi-year pacts before I've worked out McDavid.

B) I go in to every single contract discussion from then on out talking about how much McDavid gave up to be competitive, and insisting that others do the same. Yes Leon, you had a great playoffs, but we need to be able to afford to keep a strong team around you, so you can't have a big premium. Kris Russell, stop calling me. If you're still unsigned in the second half of the summer, we can talk. Gryba - you spent a month in the minors this year. You're not getting anything above league minimum for one year, and I don't care if it takes til October to sign you.

C) I pick who I want Las Vegas to take, and I give them a pick to make it happen. Most likely Mark Fayne.

D) I approach every single move in the summer with the awareness that I need to compete THIS YEAR and that it's going to be hard to compete next year. I'm not downgrading Eberle unless I've got a one-year elite replacement in hand.

E) I'm strongly considering replacing the coach. If I don't, I'm having a significant discussion on expectations, and making sure that he's developing the system to the players he has, rather than trying to force players in to a system that doesn't make sense. I'm asking him to consider whether with the offensive weapons he has it makes sense to protect leads or to try to continue building them. I'm pointing to the overtime against San Jose and the big first period of Game 6 versus Anaheim and saying that when the Oilers keep pushing, they put teams on the rope, while when they lay off and play conservative, bad things happen. I'm telling him that he has to be better about adjusting tactics in-game, and in being strategic in his deployment. If he has an opportunity, use it. If the other team ices the puck with an exhausted line, don't just go with the next line in the rotation. If he can't get his head around that, I'm cutting bait.

This year was exceedingly important, and the Oilers this summer acted as if it was the least important year in ages. They didn't look at impact signings. They barely dabbled in value signings. They knowingly left holes in the lineup that would have to be filled by either teenagers (Yamamoto/Puljujarvi) or borderline NHLers (Gryba/Auvitu). They signed deals that will handcuff them for moves in future seasons. They gave away offence without adequately replacing it.

And then, if all that wasn't baffling enough, Chiarelli went on TV with Bob McKenzie and said he doesn't know if he can keep the team competitive when he's paying McDavid and Draisaitl $21MM/season. He should know the answer to that. If he couldn't do it, then he needed to negotiate harder with those players. It doesn't matter if they deserve more, he needed to talk to them and tell them that he will waste several years of their career if they don't give him more to work with. If he believes he can make it work at that level (without relying on a huge increase in the cap) then he should have a plan and it shouldn't be something that he just doesn't know...

The Oilers came in to this season basically hoping for the stars to align, for the team to stay healthy, for several players to make huge strides forward and for deadline deals to be available to them to push the team over the edge. That's a terrible game plan.

And worse yet, the GM seems to have no real game plan for what happens after this season. It's unforgivable. #fireChia




"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703081 is a reply to message #703079 ]
Mon, 20 November 2017 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ziltoid  is currently offline ziltoid
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Goose wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 16:25



I'm sorry, Chia gets paid 7 figures to do his job. If winning one playoff round against a depleted Sharks team is so emotional for him that he completely changed his strategy then he shouldn't be in that position.

And I didn't see him making a lot of moves that lead me to believe he suddenly switched to Win Now mode. He traded away his 3rd leading scorer for a 3rd liner. Then he bought out a guy who has been a useful piece and was their best fwd PKer a year earlier than necessary and didn't even use the cap space. Then knowing that his 2nd best (and at times, best) defenceman would be out for a significant time period, he decided to bring back the same group as last year + Auvitu. Win Now mode would have been trading draft picks or young players for older, but better players.

Instead, he actively made this team worse on paper. Like he literally could have made zero moves and this roster would have been in better shape.




PC: "If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate."

If he literally makes zero move, lets Russell walk, and brings, say, Dillon Simpson up until Sekera gets back, would we be worse off? I doubt it. I don't think we'd be near the top of the standings, but we would at least be in contention for a wildcard spot, and could probably sneak into the playoffs.




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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703094 is a reply to message #703079 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 16:25

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 14:07



As fun as it was. I thought the Oilers doing what they did last year was not good a thing. To go from almost dead last to where they were last year was a shock and raised the expectations way too high and I think altered the Oilers plans. Chia said it himself, he didn't expect that. It would have been better if the Oilers went from almost dead last to say 9th in the West, maybe squeak in the playoffs. If you do that, you are still in development mode, you are still in improving the roster mode. When you are 2 pts out of winning the division and you pretty much got screwed from the conference finals, you are altering your thinking. All of a sudden you think your roster is better than it is and you are wanting to keep the momentum going. I personally believe that if the Oilers were say 8th or 9th, they aren't signing Russell. When you are 2 points out of a division title and got screwed out of going to the conference finals and you lose Sekera for 3/4 of the year, it doesn't matter as a fan if you hate Russell, in my mind it's pretty hard to walk away from the other half of your second pairing that got you to where they got last year. How can you as a manager say you are in WIN NOW mode with an entirely brand new second pair for 3/4 of the year? I don't see it. It doesn't mean I am a fan of Russell, it doesn't mean I like the move or agree with it but I understand the thinking to some degree.



I'm sorry, Chia gets paid 7 figures to do his job. If winning one playoff round against a depleted Sharks team is so emotional for him that he completely changed his strategy then he shouldn't be in that position.

And I didn't see him making a lot of moves that lead me to believe he suddenly switched to Win Now mode. He traded away his 3rd leading scorer for a 3rd liner. Then he bought out a guy who has been a useful piece and was their best fwd PKer a year earlier than necessary and didn't even use the cap space. Then knowing that his 2nd best (and at times, best) defenceman would be out for a significant time period, he decided to bring back the same group as last year + Auvitu. Win Now mode would have been trading draft picks or young players for older, but better players.

Instead, he actively made this team worse on paper. Like he literally could have made zero moves and this roster would have been in better shape.



I am not saying Chia gets a free pass for how the season has gone. So far the bets he made and the moves he made don't look good right now. Fingers crossed they work out but so far it hasn't gone well at all. But what I am getting at is the Oilers 2 seasons ago had 70 points. If last season the Oilers had a reasonable rise in points and got into the mid to high 80's which would be a pretty decent improvement given where they were, I think you would be more willing to not sign a Russell and roll the dice on the defense you have for this year. As soon as you are challenging for a division and odds makers are listing you as one of the cup favorites. I believe all bets are off and you make moves to try and keep things going i.e signing Russell.

Look I get that the Eberle trade looks like you made the team weaker so it goes against what I said. But I believe it had everything to do with the coach having enough of Eberle's act and wanting him gone. McLellan rode Eberle all season hard. He hammered him in the playoffs pretty badly. He demoted him off the top line, off the top PP unit, in the playoffs, he demoted him even more and he threw him under the bus. I am not justifying the move because it looks brutal right now. But I believe that for a team to be successful, the coach and GM have to be somewhat on the same page. So if the coach says "i want him gone" and unless the GM either doesn't give a damn what his coach says which I don't see how that can work for any team or he absolutely LOVES a player which Chia didn't, I just don't see how a GM can ignore his coaches wishes. McLellan given how he deployed Eberle and how he trashed Eberle was DONE with him.

For Pouliot. He was useless. The guy has a track record of being decent for a couple of years and then be crap. You don't bounce around the league as much as he has with his size, speed and potential skill if you are a good player long term. I wish I knew where to find the stats but if you listen to the radio guys talk about the Oilers PK it hasn't been good for a while now, that includes last year. If you want to make the argument that the Oilers didn't need to buy out Pouliot this year. That is completely fair and I can even buy into that. But saying they are missing out because he's not here. I can't buy that. He did nothing last year. He did nothing to help the team get where they were and was useless in the playoffs. AM I surprised he is doing decent in Buffalo? Nope because like I said he goes to a new team and does good things for a year or 2. But in saying that, he is a decent player on a lousy team. At 950K for 1 year, if he is so good, why didn't a decent team pick him up?



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703100 is a reply to message #703094 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017


For Pouliot. He was useless. The guy has a track record of being decent for a couple of years and then be crap. You don't bounce around the league as much as he has with his size, speed and potential skill if you are a good player long term. I wish I knew where to find the stats but if you listen to the radio guys talk about the Oilers PK it hasn't been good for a while now, that includes last year. If you want to make the argument that the Oilers didn't need to buy out Pouliot this year. That is completely fair and I can even buy into that. But saying they are missing out because he's not here. I can't buy that. He did nothing last year. He did nothing to help the team get where they were and was useless in the playoffs. AM I surprised he is doing decent in Buffalo? Nope because like I said he goes to a new team and does good things for a year or 2. But in saying that, he is a decent player on a lousy team. At 950K for 1 year, if he is so good, why didn't a decent team pick him up?


We disagree on Pouliots value. I think he was the Oilers best PKer last year, and 8 even strength goals is not nothing, maybe you don't want to pay him $4M, but he's not useless. But if the Oilers had decided to buy him out after this year, I would have had no problem with it.

But that doesn't change the fact that Chia saved $2.7M in cap this year, and didn't use it! It's a bizarro move and I don't think it's remotely defensible.



Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703102 is a reply to message #703100 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 09:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017


For Pouliot. He was useless. The guy has a track record of being decent for a couple of years and then be crap. You don't bounce around the league as much as he has with his size, speed and potential skill if you are a good player long term. I wish I knew where to find the stats but if you listen to the radio guys talk about the Oilers PK it hasn't been good for a while now, that includes last year. If you want to make the argument that the Oilers didn't need to buy out Pouliot this year. That is completely fair and I can even buy into that. But saying they are missing out because he's not here. I can't buy that. He did nothing last year. He did nothing to help the team get where they were and was useless in the playoffs. AM I surprised he is doing decent in Buffalo? Nope because like I said he goes to a new team and does good things for a year or 2. But in saying that, he is a decent player on a lousy team. At 950K for 1 year, if he is so good, why didn't a decent team pick him up?


We disagree on Pouliots value. I think he was the Oilers best PKer last year, and 8 even strength goals is not nothing, maybe you don't want to pay him $4M, but he's not useless. But if the Oilers had decided to buy him out after this year, I would have had no problem with it.

But that doesn't change the fact that Chia saved $2.7M in cap this year, and didn't use it! It's a bizarro move and I don't think it's remotely defensible.

We will definitely disagree on Pouliot. I know there was a lot of people who sung the praises of Pouliot, I wasn't one of them. I didn't hate the signing but I didn't love it and I never understood why you had to give him so much money and term. To me there is a lot of Pouliot's in the league. Guys who on paper have tons of skill and ability and when they want to use it, can be very effective but don't want too apply themselves anywhere near enough. So I think you can find those guys fairly easily and cheaply.

I totally agree with you about the cap space. When you are near the top of the league in revenue, what are you saving all this cap space for? Use it.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703103 is a reply to message #703102 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 09:14


We will definitely disagree on Pouliot. I know there was a lot of people who sung the praises of Pouliot, I wasn't one of them. I didn't hate the signing but I didn't love it and I never understood why you had to give him so much money and term. To me there is a lot of Pouliot's in the league. Guys who on paper have tons of skill and ability and when they want to use it, can be very effective but don't want too apply themselves anywhere near enough. So I think you can find those guys fairly easily and cheaply.

I totally agree with you about the cap space. When you are near the top of the league in revenue, what are you saving all this cap space for? Use it.


I think a bigger problem with Pouliot (and with other players - Penner, Strome, etc) is that media or a coach brands them early in their career and then they never escape from the shadow of that early assessment. It's easier for bad media guys to harp on a tired narrative than to take the time and effort to dig deeper and see if their assumptions are correct.

The biggest thing that impacted Pouliot last year compared to his first couple years as an Oiler was that his playing time was taken away, and he was given third and fourth line icetime rather than top-six minutes with good players. He'd shown he could be a competent complimentary scorer, but he isn't the guy who drives the line and with fourth line minutes and limited looks on the powerplay, his production wasn't going to be the same.

Why did he get demoted? Because of the narrative on bad penalties. Now, the stats guys have shown again and again that while Pouliot takes penalties, he also draws a lot of them. His penalties are because he's aggressive on the forecheck, using both stick and body. Sometimes he gets called. Sometimes he draws calls. He's comparable to Tkachuk in Calgary, who is drawing and taking a significant number of penalties. Most seasons, he draws more than he takes, but last year tilted slightly in the other direction. He was castigated for it by both coach and media. He was punished with healthy scratches and demotions down the lineup.

Now, we know that there are other players who take penalties at a greater rate - Kassian, Lucic - and who draw much fewer penalties. There was no mention of this in the media, and the coach never responded to their infractions. Kassian has been elevated up the lineup several times, and Lucic has never not been on the first PP or one on of the Oilers top-2 lines.

I believe we're seeing this already with Strome, who comes to Edmonton with a reputation. He hasn't done anything overtly lazy but he hasn't produced any special numbers on the third line, and I expect that we're going to start to see the media pick on him soon about that. Never mind that our third line is A) not that good and B) is given no rope to gamble for offence by the coach so chance of production is small. Still, there's a narrative because his former coach wasn't a fan that lazy press can pick up on. And his current coach hasn't been overly enamoured too, although he's given him very little opportunity to show that he can produce with good players. McLellan loves having a whipping boy and Strome's past history makes him the easy choice so don't be surprised if he ends up under the bus a few times this season.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703130 is a reply to message #703103 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 09:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 09:14


We will definitely disagree on Pouliot. I know there was a lot of people who sung the praises of Pouliot, I wasn't one of them. I didn't hate the signing but I didn't love it and I never understood why you had to give him so much money and term. To me there is a lot of Pouliot's in the league. Guys who on paper have tons of skill and ability and when they want to use it, can be very effective but don't want too apply themselves anywhere near enough. So I think you can find those guys fairly easily and cheaply.

I totally agree with you about the cap space. When you are near the top of the league in revenue, what are you saving all this cap space for? Use it.


I think a bigger problem with Pouliot (and with other players - Penner, Strome, etc) is that media or a coach brands them early in their career and then they never escape from the shadow of that early assessment. It's easier for bad media guys to harp on a tired narrative than to take the time and effort to dig deeper and see if their assumptions are correct.

The biggest thing that impacted Pouliot last year compared to his first couple years as an Oiler was that his playing time was taken away, and he was given third and fourth line icetime rather than top-six minutes with good players. He'd shown he could be a competent complimentary scorer, but he isn't the guy who drives the line and with fourth line minutes and limited looks on the powerplay, his production wasn't going to be the same.

Why did he get demoted? Because of the narrative on bad penalties. Now, the stats guys have shown again and again that while Pouliot takes penalties, he also draws a lot of them. His penalties are because he's aggressive on the forecheck, using both stick and body. Sometimes he gets called. Sometimes he draws calls. He's comparable to Tkachuk in Calgary, who is drawing and taking a significant number of penalties. Most seasons, he draws more than he takes, but last year tilted slightly in the other direction. He was castigated for it by both coach and media. He was punished with healthy scratches and demotions down the lineup.

Now, we know that there are other players who take penalties at a greater rate - Kassian, Lucic - and who draw much fewer penalties. There was no mention of this in the media, and the coach never responded to their infractions. Kassian has been elevated up the lineup several times, and Lucic has never not been on the first PP or one on of the Oilers top-2 lines.

I believe we're seeing this already with Strome, who comes to Edmonton with a reputation. He hasn't done anything overtly lazy but he hasn't produced any special numbers on the third line, and I expect that we're going to start to see the media pick on him soon about that. Never mind that our third line is A) not that good and B) is given no rope to gamble for offence by the coach so chance of production is small. Still, there's a narrative because his former coach wasn't a fan that lazy press can pick up on. And his current coach hasn't been overly enamoured too, although he's given him very little opportunity to show that he can produce with good players. McLellan loves having a whipping boy and Strome's past history makes him the easy choice so don't be surprised if he ends up under the bus a few times this season.

I am not sure what else you want me to say on Pouliot. He's been on 6 teams in the last 8 years. If you don't believe me because apparently according to Plusone I post nothing but lies, here's a link. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/player-bio/benoit-pouliot
That is a lot of movement for one player in a short period of time. If he is so valuable, why is he moving around so much?

I don't pretend to be an expert but I watched just about every Oiler game either live or on TV last season and I saw nothing in his play where he deserved more ice time. Maybe you think differently but I am of the belief that he was so bad, he probably deserved less games but it's hard to sit 4 mill in the press box a ton especially when you already demoted Fayne and his 3.625 because he can't play either.

My feeling that Pouliot is just another player who can play in the NHL but doesn't really impact your team a lot is further strengthened by him being passed by Vegas. You have an expansion team trying to pick off pieces that can play. You have a guy who according to some can do a lot of good things. You have a team with no cap issues because they are starting from scratch. You can get a player who according to some is valuable for nothing but money. No one is going to convince me that not taking Pouliot had anything to do with money and the cap because Vegas had no problem taking on Clarkson's 5.25 mill for this season and the next 2 more who will never play. They had no problem taking on Grabovski and his 5 mill who will never play. They had no problem taking on Stoner and is 3.25 mill and he will never play. There is the link. https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/goldenknights
So they didn't even bat an eye about taking on 13.5 mill in cap hit on 3 guys who will never play a single game for them. Yet they could have a player who can actually play and maybe do something like you said he can and they pass on him and take Reinhart who right now is still not an NHLer.

How does that make any sense?



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703137 is a reply to message #703130 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 14:11


That is a lot of movement for one player in a short period of time. If he is so valuable, why is he moving around so much?

I don't pretend to be an expert but I watched just about every Oiler game either live or on TV last season and I saw nothing in his play where he deserved more ice time. Maybe you think differently but I am of the belief that he was so bad, he probably deserved less games but it's hard to sit 4 mill in the press box a ton especially when you already demoted Fayne and his 3.625 because he can't play either.

My feeling that Pouliot is just another player who can play in the NHL but doesn't really impact your team a lot is further strengthened by him being passed by Vegas. You have an expansion team trying to pick off pieces that can play. You have a guy who according to some can do a lot of good things. You have a team with no cap issues because they are starting from scratch. You can get a player who according to some is valuable for nothing but money. No one is going to convince me that not taking Pouliot had anything to do with money and the cap because Vegas had no problem taking on Clarkson's 5.25 mill for this season and the next 2 more who will never play. They had no problem taking on Grabovski and his 5 mill who will never play. They had no problem taking on Stoner and is 3.25 mill and he will never play. There is the link. https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/goldenknights
So they didn't even bat an eye about taking on 13.5 mill in cap hit on 3 guys who will never play a single game for them. Yet they could have a player who can actually play and maybe do something like you said he can and they pass on him and take Reinhart who right now is still not an NHLer.

How does that make any sense?



Vegas was looking for trade assets, and Pouliot was being paid too much and had a two year deal. Reinhart had been traded for multiple draft picks once, and he's young, so they were hoping he was either A) good enough to play for them or B) an attractive trade asset from someone else.

Pouliot bounces for a few reasons.

Pros:
- He's always good enough that someone wants him.
- He's capable of producing.
- There's lots of evidence that supports the fact that he has a positive impact on his teams.
- He's good at even strength, capable on the PP and a good PKer.

Cons:
- He is what he is - a 30-to-40 point player. Those guys are often overvalued by other teams and under-valued by their own.
- Because of that, (prior to last year) he was getting contracts that make him a fairly expensive secondary scorer on each team. If the team needs to give raises to home-grown talent, they're going to sacrifice him.
- People put expectations on him above that early in his career due to where he was drafted so there is some tendency to hope he'll do more than that.
- He's been branded by some early coaches, so coaches have a tendency to focus on his weaknesses as opposed to his strengths.

I don't think he tried any less hard last year, but he wasn't given the rope and he wasn't played with first and second liners. That's always going to reduce production.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703151 is a reply to message #703137 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 15:27




Vegas was looking for trade assets, and Pouliot was being paid too much and had a two year deal. Reinhart had been traded for multiple draft picks once, and he's young, so they were hoping he was either A) good enough to play for them or B) an attractive trade asset from someone else.

Pouliot bounces for a few reasons.

Pros:
- He's always good enough that someone wants him.
- He's capable of producing.
- There's lots of evidence that supports the fact that he has a positive impact on his teams.
- He's good at even strength, capable on the PP and a good PKer.

Cons:
- He is what he is - a 30-to-40 point player. Those guys are often overvalued by other teams and under-valued by their own.
- Because of that, (prior to last year) he was getting contracts that make him a fairly expensive secondary scorer on each team. If the team needs to give raises to home-grown talent, they're going to sacrifice him.
- People put expectations on him above that early in his career due to where he was drafted so there is some tendency to hope he'll do more than that.
- He's been branded by some early coaches, so coaches have a tendency to focus on his weaknesses as opposed to his strengths.

I don't think he tried any less hard last year, but he wasn't given the rope and he wasn't played with first and second liners. That's always going to reduce production.


The issue with Pouliot isnt what he produced, it was his cap hit.
As you mentioned earlier Adam the writing is on the wall for guys like Pouliot when the lapdogs started pushing the penalty narrative while ignoring any positives he had like drawing penalties.
As with almost every single PC move the fans are TOLD the cap savings was a big part of that.

Until that cap is used to actually make the team better all it is doing is saving Katz a few bucks.



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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #703149 is a reply to message #703130 ]
Tue, 21 November 2017 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2017 15:11


If you don't believe me because apparently according to Plusone I post nothing but lies,



PlusOne wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 18:32

you spew so much garbage, half truths and made up "facts"



RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 16:56

But its not the first time you put words in my mouth and it won't be the last I am sure.


Easy there buttercup, you are getting dangerously close to putting words in my mouth.





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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #716090 is a reply to message #696348 ]
Fri, 22 June 2018 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Best trade ever man


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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #716198 is a reply to message #716090 ]
Mon, 25 June 2018 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
WhoreableGuy  is currently offline WhoreableGuy
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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 22 June 2018 18:49

Best trade ever man


This is like, the Flames version of the Reinhart trade. Well not even close, but feels good to see them lose big time.



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 Re: Hamonic traded to Calgary Flames [message #716217 is a reply to message #716198 ]
Mon, 25 June 2018 12:45 Go to previous message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 25 June 2018 10:49

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 22 June 2018 18:49

Best trade ever man


This is like, the Flames version of the Reinhart trade. Well not even close, but feels good to see them lose big time.


It's pretty close. I guess Hamonic is still an NHLer, 3rd pairing guy but he can at least play in the NHL where Reinhart couldn't. What will kill the Flames is Walhstrom. The Flames lack scoring and need wingers and need right shots. Wahlstrom is all that. If the Flames didn't make that trade, would they have been any worse off this past season? I doubt it. What killed them was fragile Smith going down and their goaltending falling apart, their lack of scoring and their PP sucking. None of which Hamonic helps with.



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