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 The Larsson Alternative [message #674459]
Sat, 02 July 2016 14:21 Go to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton

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I got tired of bringing up this question to posters in various threads on the main board so I will one last time invite those that are dissatisfied with the Hall for Larsson swap to kindly offer their constructive alternative solution that Chiarelli was too dumb to go for.

So officially: what move(s) would you have made as GM instead of the trade that happened? How would your moves have resulted in us becoming a better overall/balanced team moving forward?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful, unbiased contributions. Please note that failure to post an answer in this thread will be interpreted as admission that you don't actually have a real solution to offer and are just emotionally attached to Taylor Hall.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674468 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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Signing Demers would have been a close equivalent.

We'd still have Hall to pry Barrie out of Colorado.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2016 15:22]


2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674471 is a reply to message #674468 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HamBlaster  is currently offline HamBlaster
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Demers is not a top pairing defender and would have cost the Oilers more to sign and have play in their top pairing. He'll be playing where he should be in Florida. I'd rather have Barrie anyways.

Larsson is going to be a stud Dman in this league.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674485 is a reply to message #674471 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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HamBlaster wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:22

Demers is not a top pairing defender and would have cost the Oilers more to sign and have play in their top pairing. He'll be playing where he should be in Florida. I'd rather have Barrie anyways.

Larsson is going to be a stud Dman in this league.


Under my scenario we'd end up with Barie and Demers, and no Larsson. I'm not sure you read my entire post.



2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674573 is a reply to message #674485 ]
Mon, 04 July 2016 07:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:25

HamBlaster wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:22

Demers is not a top pairing defender and would have cost the Oilers more to sign and have play in their top pairing. He'll be playing where he should be in Florida. I'd rather have Barrie anyways.

Larsson is going to be a stud Dman in this league.


Under my scenario we'd end up with Barie and Demers, and no Larsson. I'm not sure you read my entire post.


Then you'd have 2 players who aren't top pairing dmen, who are second pairing dmen, who can't handle teams top players and shouldn't be playing much more than 20 mins a night.

I had little to no interest in Demers because he's a right shooting Sekera. Demers like Sekera is a decent, second pairing dman, does a lot of things OK, nothing spectacular, shouldn't be playing much more than 20 mins a night, can't handle a teams top players, isn't physical and can't run your PP. The only thing different is he shoots right. I think Sekera was a decent signing but we don't need another one.

I like Barrie a lot but he's a high scoring, second pairing dman.

I still don't think the Oilers got enough for Hall BUT Larsson IS a top pairing, right shot dman who can handle teams top players and play you close to 25 mins a night because that's what he did last year. If you didn't make the trade for Larsson and you had Barrie and Demers, you'd be doing EXACTLY what they have been doing for years which is bringing in players and making them play above where they should be. The Oilers have been doing this for years, so I don't get why people want to keep doing that. It doesn't work.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674486 is a reply to message #674468 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:19

Signing Demers would have been a close equivalent.

We'd still have Hall to pry Barrie out of Colorado.


Demers is a decent D no arguing there but he's 28 and no one would say is top pairing D now or ever in the future. We acquired a RHD who does still have that ceiling (and is arguably already there) on a cheaper contract no less.

Saying Hall would pry Barrie out of Colorado is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part -- you don't know that's what they are after at all (his name never once came up in relation to the Avs) and there's nothing that says we couldn't still land Barrie with our other assets.

We still lose Hall in your scenario and end up with the lesser defence acquisitions:

Demers, Barrie < Larsson, Barrie easily.




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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674489 is a reply to message #674486 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:29

Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:19

Signing Demers would have been a close equivalent.

We'd still have Hall to pry Barrie out of Colorado.


Demers is a decent D no arguing there but he's 28 and no one would say is top pairing D now or ever in the future. We acquired a RHD who does still have that ceiling (and is arguably already there) on a cheaper contract no less.

Saying Hall would pry Barrie out of Colorado is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part -- you don't know that's what they are after at all (his name never once came up in relation to the Avs) and there's nothing that says we couldn't still land Barrie with our other assets.

We still lose Hall in your scenario and end up with the lesser defence acquisitions:

Demers, Barrie < Larsson, Barrie easily.




Your missing a major point here. To get Barrie into the Larsson, Barrie scenario, you need to give up another high end asset. In my Demer, Barrie scenario, you only give you Hall, and maybe get more back in return.

I doubt few would believe that it is "pure speculation" that you're more likely to get Barrie with Hall, than without Hall. Your Larsson, Barrie situation is just as speculative, more so without Hall.

If you don't trade Hall and just sign Demers, the team is utterly stacked at forward, and close if not better on D.

Let's say Demers is 25% worse than Larsson, but we have Hall and Lucic on the wing, that more than covers the spread. This argument has been made over and over so far, and you seem to be able to not accept it, which is getting impressive... that... or astroturfing?




2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
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2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674896 is a reply to message #674486 ]
Fri, 08 July 2016 13:41 Go to previous message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:29

Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:19

Signing Demers would have been a close equivalent.

We'd still have Hall to pry Barrie out of Colorado.


Demers is a decent D no arguing there but he's 28 and no one would say is top pairing D now or ever in the future. We acquired a RHD who does still have that ceiling (and is arguably already there) on a cheaper contract no less.

Saying Hall would pry Barrie out of Colorado is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part -- you don't know that's what they are after at all (his name never once came up in relation to the Avs) and there's nothing that says we couldn't still land Barrie with our other assets.

We still lose Hall in your scenario and end up with the lesser defence acquisitions:

Demers, Barrie < Larsson, Barrie easily.




Wouldn't anything that anyone proposes here be speculation? I speculate that it's still speculation that Larsson pans out like Chiarelli thinks he's going to. The deal has that magic bean-ish tinge to it.

My proposal is that the best trade asset should have been used with other assets if needed to address the single greatest need on the team. Hall + + for Subban. JUST SPECULATION, though....



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674469 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HamBlaster  is currently offline HamBlaster
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Ha ha ha... awesome post. Personally, I'll miss Hall however I think Larsson is going to surprise a lot of people.


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674472 is a reply to message #674469 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Team Dean  is currently offline Team Dean
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Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2016 15:27]


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674477 is a reply to message #674472 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Team Dean wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 14:25

Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.





You are correct, no matter how you slice it there were better moves out there, Chiarelli got drunk and giddy working on the Lucic deal, the Hall deal was not given full attention nor appreciation.

T. Hall + D. Hamhuis + J. Demers - Pouliot >> A. Larsson



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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674487 is a reply to message #674477 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:38

Team Dean wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 14:25

Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.





You are correct, no matter how you slice it there were better moves out there, Chiarelli got drunk and giddy working on the Lucic deal, the Hall deal was not given full attention nor appreciation.

T. Hall + D. Hamhuis + J. Demers - Pouliot >> A. Larsson



Hamhuis?

LHD, 33, past his prime and on a decline over a young RHD #2 with upside.

That scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3million less cap space.

You're the drunk one -- please go home. icon_lol

Edit: also didn't factor in where Pouliot and his 4M is supposed to disappear to...?

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2016 16:44]


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674490 is a reply to message #674487 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:42

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:38

Team Dean wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 14:25

Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.





You are correct, no matter how you slice it there were better moves out there, Chiarelli got drunk and giddy working on the Lucic deal, the Hall deal was not given full attention nor appreciation.

T. Hall + D. Hamhuis + J. Demers - Pouliot >> A. Larsson



Hamhuis?

LHD, 33, past his prime and on a decline over a young RHD #2 with upside.

That scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3million less cap space.

You're the drunk one -- please go home. icon_lol

Edit: also didn't factor in where Pouliot and his 4M is supposed to disappear to...?


You're missing the T. Hall part... and maybe some marbles.



2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674495 is a reply to message #674490 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:51

rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:42

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:38

Team Dean wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 14:25

Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.





You are correct, no matter how you slice it there were better moves out there, Chiarelli got drunk and giddy working on the Lucic deal, the Hall deal was not given full attention nor appreciation.

T. Hall + D. Hamhuis + J. Demers - Pouliot >> A. Larsson



Hamhuis?

LHD, 33, past his prime and on a decline over a young RHD #2 with upside.

That scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3million less cap space.

You're the drunk one -- please go home. icon_lol

Edit: also didn't factor in where Pouliot and his 4M is supposed to disappear to...?


You're missing the T. Hall part... and maybe some marbles.




Umm, no I didn't. That "this scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3 million less cap space" is because Hall is still here...

0-3


Edit: for fun let's add Lucic's 6M back in the mix. We are then sitting right up to or over the cap barring future moves.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2016 17:09]


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674516 is a reply to message #674495 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 17:06

Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:51

rjayd2 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:42

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:38

Team Dean wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 14:25

Sign Demers, trade Hall for Barrie.

Pretty sure Demers would have come here for 5.5 x 6, more money and term than he got. He did come visit Edmonton, so he can't be totally biased against it.

Now we have no strong winger to trade to Colorado for Barrie.





You are correct, no matter how you slice it there were better moves out there, Chiarelli got drunk and giddy working on the Lucic deal, the Hall deal was not given full attention nor appreciation.

T. Hall + D. Hamhuis + J. Demers - Pouliot >> A. Larsson



Hamhuis?

LHD, 33, past his prime and on a decline over a young RHD #2 with upside.

That scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3million less cap space.

You're the drunk one -- please go home. icon_lol

Edit: also didn't factor in where Pouliot and his 4M is supposed to disappear to...?


You're missing the T. Hall part... and maybe some marbles.




Umm, no I didn't. That "this scenario also likely means no Lucic and roughly $3 million less cap space" is because Hall is still here...

0-3


Edit: for fun let's add Lucic's 6M back in the mix. We are then sitting right up to or over the cap barring future moves.


Oh, okay, you missed or failed to recognise or give credence to the no Lucic part. Same principal applies. Your scenario provides that team with fewer assets.

As for the cap, the team is still under by $903,833.

If they trade Hall for Barrie then they can sign Barrie for $7M per year if they so chose. Well $6,903,833 to be precise, but sending Laurent Brossoit down, which they probably will anyway, would be an easily observable solution.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2016 20:47]


2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674476 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Love the post, thanks rjayd2.

Obviously, I'm a tad biased as I always have and will continue to be a Hall fan. However, as a bigger fan of the Edmonton Oilers, I love this trade. It brings a more balanced roster for TMac to work with while adding a potential top dman who is TWENTY THREE years young. Larsson is going to be a monster for us, paired with Klefbom could be a real treat to watch as a (potential) top pairing.

People gripe and gripe that Chia has to improve this roster so we can compete for the playoffs but when he shows he's going in that direction a large group of the same people lambaste him for it. Something obviously has been rotten in the core and Chia is trying to fix that. Let's wait till we see this new on ice product before we go jumping off the top rope on PC. Don't agree, listen to Hall's comments post trade. He feels slighted, he's had everything given to him on a platter since being drafted by the Oilers. He wants that dressing room to listen to him? Now he has to earn it.

Hall was always supposed to be our modern day 'Messier'. Well, now that we have a comparable to Semenko and Kurri for our new Gretz, perhaps Drai takes over the Moose role.

If there was a better move out there for Hall, to improve the overall team, PC would have made that move.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674478 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KenMoreira  is currently offline KenMoreira
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I think those that have an issue with the trade genuinely do not know Larssons advance analytics. He is absolutely a true number 1 defender in the mold of a Lidstrom / Keith. He puts up mainly primary assists. in fact hes top 20 in the NHL in that catagory ahead of the super popular Drew Doughty. Furthermore 70 percent of his zone starts with in his own zone, and hes top 25 when it comes to shot prevention and goal prevention corsi metrics (over the past 3 season)

that 23 - 25 minutes a night for a 24 yr old is absolutely top RHD material. The issue is that he plays in Jersey and not on a cup contender / Hockey media hotbed. If he did, his value would be even higher than it is.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674492 is a reply to message #674478 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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KenMoreira wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:49

I think those that have an issue with the trade genuinely do not know Larssons advance analytics. He is absolutely a true number 1 defender in the mold of a Lidstrom / Keith. He puts up mainly primary assists. in fact hes top 20 in the NHL in that catagory ahead of the super popular Drew Doughty. Furthermore 70 percent of his zone starts with in his own zone, and hes top 25 when it comes to shot prevention and goal prevention corsi metrics (over the past 3 season)

that 23 - 25 minutes a night for a 24 yr old is absolutely top RHD material. The issue is that he plays in Jersey and not on a cup contender / Hockey media hotbed. If he did, his value would be even higher than it is.


His defensive stats are out of this world! No question. My concerns are these:

His defensive partner, Greene, could have been holding him up. Although the advanced stats give a bit of evidence otherwise.

He's only had one good season.

He's unproven on offence.

So while some of his stats are outer-worldly, there is still a number of black boxes.



2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674498 is a reply to message #674492 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ziltoid  is currently offline ziltoid
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:55

KenMoreira wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:49

I think those that have an issue with the trade genuinely do not know Larssons advance analytics. He is absolutely a true number 1 defender in the mold of a Lidstrom / Keith. He puts up mainly primary assists. in fact hes top 20 in the NHL in that catagory ahead of the super popular Drew Doughty. Furthermore 70 percent of his zone starts with in his own zone, and hes top 25 when it comes to shot prevention and goal prevention corsi metrics (over the past 3 season)

that 23 - 25 minutes a night for a 24 yr old is absolutely top RHD material. The issue is that he plays in Jersey and not on a cup contender / Hockey media hotbed. If he did, his value would be even higher than it is.


His defensive stats are out of this world! No question. My concerns are these:

His defensive partner, Greene, could have been holding him up. Although the advanced stats give a bit of evidence otherwise.

He's only had one good season.

He's unproven on offence.

So while some of his stats are outer-worldly, there is still a number of black boxes.


I know a lot of people are nervous given how Fayne panned out, but what eases my mind is Larsson's ability to make zone exits.

I can't find any direct, recent data on the matter, but between all the verbal from the NJ side and what's implied by his underlying numbers, he is perfectly capable of being the person responsible for moving the puck up and out of the zone (much like Sekera was when playing with Fayne), which is why I don't think he was being propped up by Greene (like Fayne was).



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674500 is a reply to message #674498 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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ziltoid wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 17:14

Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 16:55

KenMoreira wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:49

I think those that have an issue with the trade genuinely do not know Larssons advance analytics. He is absolutely a true number 1 defender in the mold of a Lidstrom / Keith. He puts up mainly primary assists. in fact hes top 20 in the NHL in that catagory ahead of the super popular Drew Doughty. Furthermore 70 percent of his zone starts with in his own zone, and hes top 25 when it comes to shot prevention and goal prevention corsi metrics (over the past 3 season)

that 23 - 25 minutes a night for a 24 yr old is absolutely top RHD material. The issue is that he plays in Jersey and not on a cup contender / Hockey media hotbed. If he did, his value would be even higher than it is.


His defensive stats are out of this world! No question. My concerns are these:

His defensive partner, Greene, could have been holding him up. Although the advanced stats give a bit of evidence otherwise.

He's only had one good season.

He's unproven on offence.

So while some of his stats are outer-worldly, there is still a number of black boxes.


I know a lot of people are nervous given how Fayne panned out, but what eases my mind is Larsson's ability to make zone exits.

I can't find any direct, recent data on the matter, but between all the verbal from the NJ side and what's implied by his underlying numbers, he is perfectly capable of being the person responsible for moving the puck up and out of the zone (much like Sekera was when playing with Fayne), which is why I don't think he was being propped up by Greene (like Fayne was).



For sure, that is possible, it's just too unknown for my liking.



2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674479 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goffer48  is currently offline goffer48
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At my age, one has learned , I hope, that opening one's mouth and spewing emotional rumblings of anger and resentment, is , at the very least, a display of immaturity, and to some degree, emotional idiocy.
I do not communicate on this site as much as others, but I am here reading every day. I LOVE my Oilers. I REALLY like Taylor Hall. I abruptly hated the trade. I knew the only untouchable was #97, but HOLY MOSES BATMAN !!!...... TRADING # 4 !!!??I will miss him.
We were waiting out a thunderstorm at Millwoods Golf Course when the news came across , everyone's cell phone..... but I'm old school; still, I do have an Android, but no internet usage on it for me; just emails, texts , and phone calls. .... I watched 20+ guys lose their minds, as their phones went nuts. There was another gent there my age, who was, like me, not appearing to to be upset. ( I was , but was more in shock I think.) He wandered over to where I was sitting, sat down, and asked me .... " Adam Larson was taken #4 in the same draft that Hall was #1 ... yes? " " Yeah??" .... I said . " As a matter of fact, there were a few guys I knew , who thought he could / should go #1 , although I'm not one of them. " He looked at me, then nodded his head, and said..... " do you think Hall will score as many goals in New Jersey as Larson prevented? " He got up, walked over to the bar, and brought back a jug of beer. We drank that jug, and I never said another word but "Thanks."
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The more I think on it, the more I like this trade . ... Not in the 1 for 1 scenario, but for what it did to the make-up of the team. Chia , it's obvious ( to me, at least) , knew that Lucic was here, prior to making that move. .... Our defensive AND transition to offensive game just got a whole lot better than it used to be.
Other options ?? OEL maybe?? ... But if it's for Hall ?? I don't want to have to play him that many times ... better for him to be in NJ !! I'd have rather had Doughty than Subban, but that was never going to happen ( ?? .) If Taylor was the deal ... he had to go out East.

I believe Adam will be a very pleasant surprise to the " lot of doubters" and critics on this site.

We needed this defender more than we needed Taylor's offense. We have lots of offense left here. Sad , but true.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674484 is a reply to message #674479 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HamBlaster  is currently offline HamBlaster
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Larsson was taken a year later in the Nuge draft. He had been battling RNH for the top spot most of the season and slipped to 4 at the draft. Landeskog rode a really, really strong season as well as having a very projectable build into #2.


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674493 is a reply to message #674479 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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goffer48 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:52

At my age, one has learned , I hope, that opening one's mouth and spewing emotional rumblings of anger and resentment, is , at the very least, a display of immaturity, and to some degree, emotional idiocy.
I do not communicate on this site as much as others, but I am here reading every day. I LOVE my Oilers. I REALLY like Taylor Hall. I abruptly hated the trade. I knew the only untouchable was #97, but HOLY MOSES BATMAN !!!...... TRADING # 4 !!!??I will miss him.
We were waiting out a thunderstorm at Millwoods Golf Course when the news came across , everyone's cell phone..... but I'm old school; still, I do have an Android, but no internet usage on it for me; just emails, texts , and phone calls. .... I watched 20+ guys lose their minds, as their phones went nuts. There was another gent there my age, who was, like me, not appearing to to be upset. ( I was , but was more in shock I think.) He wandered over to where I was sitting, sat down, and asked me .... " Adam Larson was taken #4 in the same draft that Hall was #1 ... yes? " " Yeah??" .... I said . " As a matter of fact, there were a few guys I knew , who thought he could / should go #1 , although I'm not one of them. " He looked at me, then nodded his head, and said..... " do you think Hall will score as many goals in New Jersey as Larson prevented? " He got up, walked over to the bar, and brought back a jug of beer. We drank that jug, and I never said another word but "Thanks."
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The more I think on it, the more I like this trade . ... Not in the 1 for 1 scenario, but for what it did to the make-up of the team. Chia , it's obvious ( to me, at least) , knew that Lucic was here, prior to making that move. .... Our defensive AND transition to offensive game just got a whole lot better than it used to be.
Other options ?? OEL maybe?? ... But if it's for Hall ?? I don't want to have to play him that many times ... better for him to be in NJ !! I'd have rather had Doughty than Subban, but that was never going to happen ( ?? .) If Taylor was the deal ... he had to go out East.

I believe Adam will be a very pleasant surprise to the " lot of doubters" and critics on this site.

We needed this defender more than we needed Taylor's offense. We have lots of offense left here. Sad , but true.


Thanks for taking the time to dive back in (careful though I did the same thing as you and now I can't stop!). I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on the emotional side of things -- that's exactly what is coming out of nearly all the posters against the trade.

As for the suggestions, obviously OEL if that was ever possible... but I highly doubt that is ever an option. Arizona would be out of their minds to even consider Hall straight up never mind a packaging including him even (or trading him at all for that matter) he's that highly thought of and regarded. I think they even hesitate on a swap for McDavid! Ditto for Doughty -- never going to happen anytime soon unfortunately, LA would completely mad to trade him in his prime or anyone.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674481 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Those that suggest trade Hall for Barrie, would you prefer facing Hall twice a year or have him play in the same conference where you could play him up to 10 times a year? Larsson also gives you a guy that can shut down Hall.


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674488 is a reply to message #674481 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjayd2  is currently offline rjayd2
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OilMJMOil wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:58

Those that suggest trade Hall for Barrie, would you prefer facing Hall twice a year or have him play in the same conference where you could play him up to 10 times a year? Larsson also gives you a guy that can shut down Hall.



Also a very good point. Not to mention playoff match ups ( I know getting ahead of myself there).

Man too bad we have this buffoon Chia in charge and not the enlightened hive mind of Oilfans to run the show...

icon_wink

But with that said, if it ends up being Nuge or Eberle in this exact scenario I can live with that. Eberle in a conference rival's line-up probably helps us come to think of it...



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674491 is a reply to message #674481 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilfanforever!!  is currently offline Oilfanforever!!
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I don't dislike Larsson but would have preferred throwing everything at acquiring Subban.
It would have cost a lot because he's an ELITE dman but at the end of the day I would have been waaay more comfortable having PK on our blueline as a consolation for losing Hall, Drai, etc.
I suspect the reason a deal didn't get done is the Habs wanted more than Chia was willing to give.
I would have given a package of Hall, Drai, Klefbom or Nurse and the 4th overall for PK and the 9th.
Maybe I'm out of my mind!! lol but I think a dman the pedigree of Subban is worth it!!



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674494 is a reply to message #674481 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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OilMJMOil wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:58

Those that suggest trade Hall for Barrie, would you prefer facing Hall twice a year or have him play in the same conference where you could play him up to 10 times a year? Larsson also gives you a guy that can shut down Hall.


That would be a measure of winning a trade, right? If you trade a guy away and your team improved more than the other team, that would be a component of a trade win.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674497 is a reply to message #674494 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently online Kr55
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 17:02

OilMJMOil wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 15:58

Those that suggest trade Hall for Barrie, would you prefer facing Hall twice a year or have him play in the same conference where you could play him up to 10 times a year? Larsson also gives you a guy that can shut down Hall.


That would be a measure of winning a trade, right? If you trade a guy away and your team improved more than the other team, that would be a component of a trade win.



That's the way Chia can save face on this one. We were so horribly deficient on D that the odds are actually tilted in his favour that any significant improvement on D would overall improve the team even losing Hall. With our forwards, we were at the point of diminishing gains the more forward talent we add. The good ice time to give guys is pretty much all taken and the real bottleneck has been our D's ability to break up cycles in our end and get pucks moving the other way to not waste everyone's time all night running around in our own zone. Now with adding a quality RHD, assuming he can get the job done, we have have dramatics made life in our zone a lot easier for our good forwards for 20+ mins a night. The hope would be that you don't need the heroic individual efforts of a guy like Hall any much to get the pucks moving the other direction and guys like Nuge, Drai and Ebs can see their productivity improve after not having to waste as much energy in our zone.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674505 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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I hated the message I got on my phone "Taylor Hall traded for Adam Larsson" - I kept refreshing waiting to see what else we were getting.

No matter how good Larsson becomes, I will always feel that it was not enough of a return for Hall. The list of Dmen in the league that I would have traded Hall straight up for was pretty short, and Larsson was nowhere near being on it.

Now that a few days have passed, I'm more OK with the deal. Especially hearing the rumors of what was being discussed for Subban - Hall, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi (4th), Klefbom for Subban and 9th?

We would have a much better #1 to be sure, but I really believe the team is better now than it would have been. Subban is probably the best player of all the players discussed, but:

Draisaitl + Larsson + Klefbom + Puljujarvi >>> Subban + 9th

So - I think (and will always think) the return was crap, but I am cautiously optimistic with all the stats being posted about Larsson - and he is the perfect age for this group.

Larsson is our guy now. So go Adam go!



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674506 is a reply to message #674505 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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Mike wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 17:59

I hated the message I got on my phone "Taylor Hall traded for Adam Larsson" - I kept refreshing waiting to see what else we were getting.

No matter how good Larsson becomes, I will always feel that it was not enough of a return for Hall. The list of Dmen in the league that I would have traded Hall straight up for was pretty short, and Larsson was nowhere near being on it.

Now that a few days have passed, I'm more OK with the deal. Especially hearing the rumors of what was being discussed for Subban - Hall, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi (4th), Klefbom for Subban and 9th?

We would have a much better #1 to be sure, but I really believe the team is better now than it would have been. Subban is probably the best player of all the players discussed, but:

Draisaitl + Larsson + Klefbom + Puljujarvi >>> Subban + 9th

So - I think (and will always think) the return was crap, but I am cautiously optimistic with all the stats being posted about Larsson - and he is the perfect age for this group.

Larsson is our guy now. So go Adam go!


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674507 is a reply to message #674506 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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Magnum wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 21:05

If Oilfans has taught me anything, it's that Adams suck!


Good point.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674509 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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I don't know the deals on the table, but I suspect Chiarelli could have got a defenseman for less than Hall at some point. That or a better return for Hall. Whether that is in the future or before the Hall trade.

I still stand by that the rumored Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, Nurse, and something else (Yak?) for Subban is a better deal than the one we took. It's important to take note that this was what Montreal asked for, not what they settled for in the end with an old expensive Shea Weber. The Oilers have the assets to deal with those losses. None of those players are guaranteed to be stars, and we will be lucky if one of them is.

Even if we take it at face value, you are still left with 3 elite players to build your team around. Hall, Subban, and McDavid. That looks like the crux of a team that can contend right away. In the Larsson scenario we are left with just McDavid. Larsson is not elite, I don't think we have to argue that.

Subban's cap hit shouldn't scare anyone. Good teams are willing to pay their elite guys big money. Plus he doesn't have a NMC anymore. So if you even if you needed cap space I am sure some team will be willing to take on the contract of an elite defenseman.


-Pittsburgh builds there team around Malkin, Crosby, and Letang.
-Chicago builds around Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook.
-LA has built around Doughty, Kopitar, and Carter.

This is a hard league, these teams have needed more than 1 elite piece to work with to be successful. They keep their elite talents, not trade them away. They don't get scared of money, because good management can mitigate expensive deals and find value players to build around them.

You don't accept my Chicago example in the other thread. But Chicago is the most successful team in the cap era. They have found ways to retain their elite players and as a result have won 3 cups, and are looking like they can contend for another because of it. How much success do these teams have if they deal away one of those elite pieces for pennies on the dollar?

The success of this team could have been driven by McDavid, Hall, and Subban right away.
Now it rests with McDavid.




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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674512 is a reply to message #674509 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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smyth260 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 21:29

Subban's cap hit shouldn't scare anyone. Good teams are willing to pay their elite guys big money. Plus he doesn't have a NMC anymore. So if you even if you needed cap space I am sure some team will be willing to take on the contract of an elite defenseman.


Actually he does. His NMC kicked in on July 1st.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674513 is a reply to message #674512 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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Nope. Because he was traded, Nashville does not have to honour it and they have decided not to.

Proof: https://twitter.com/generalfanager/status/748622388481359872



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674515 is a reply to message #674513 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChasinStanley  is currently offline ChasinStanley
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smyth260 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 18:38

Nope. Because he was traded, Nashville does not have to honour it and they have decided not to.

Proof: https://twitter.com/generalfanager/status/748622388481359872

this actually surprises me, I know if a player waives his NMC/NTC the acquiring team does not have to honor as it has been waived. but in this case I hadn't kicked in yet to I would think it is still valid.

With this been the case I think we'll see fewer players early commit like Suban did if they could loose some of their leverage.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674518 is a reply to message #674515 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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ChasinStanley wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 22:38

smyth260 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 18:38

Nope. Because he was traded, Nashville does not have to honour it and they have decided not to.

Proof: https://twitter.com/generalfanager/status/748622388481359872

this actually surprises me, I know if a player waives his NMC/NTC the acquiring team does not have to honor as it has been waived. but in this case I hadn't kicked in yet to I would think it is still valid.

With this been the case I think we'll see fewer players early commit like Suban did if they could loose some of their leverage.


That's what I thought as well. I mean he signed the contract saying that starting July 1 he would have a NMC. He never waived it or didn't have to because it wasn't in effect yet. You would think that the acquiring team would be bound by all the terms of the SPC they are getting. Different if he's already waived, but it surprises me in this situation.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674514 is a reply to message #674512 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently online Kr55
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Mike wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 18:35

smyth260 wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 21:29

Subban's cap hit shouldn't scare anyone. Good teams are willing to pay their elite guys big money. Plus he doesn't have a NMC anymore. So if you even if you needed cap space I am sure some team will be willing to take on the contract of an elite defenseman.


Actually he does. His NMC kicked in on July 1st.


I think the NCM is gone. Preds get the option to honour the NMC that was agreed between Montreal and Subban. They aren't automatically transferred. I saw an official release that the Preds said they will not honour it, which no one should be surprised about and I doubt Subban would have expected them to either, that would just be stupid.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674522 is a reply to message #674459 ]
Sat, 02 July 2016 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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Have been thinking about this for a couple of days and wasn't sure where to post it. Don't think it deserves it's own thread, so this one seems to make sense. The level of whining coming out of the Oiler's blogosphere is becoming super annoying. The crazy thing is, I'm not even a huge fan of Chiarelli. The Mark Fraser signing is baffling to me. Not a big fan of Eric Gryba, the Reinhart trade (although for reasons that are different than most), his decision to not address the defence at all last year thereby forcing Nurse and Schultz to play way too many minutes. But the level of teen angst being directed towards him is making be feel defensive on his behalf.

I think the Demers signing today put me over the top. It's totally fine to disagree with his moves. But complaining that Chiarelli didn't land a free-agent that accepted less money to sign in Florida, with no indication of what the Oilers offer was kind of bothers me. In a twitter exchange, Jonathan Willis rejected the notion that maybe Demers just chose not to sign here, using the fact that he came to visit Edmonton as evidence that Demers would have signed here if the offer had been sufficient. You could just as easily say that the fact that the Oilers only invited 2 free agents to come and visit, and Demers was one of them, is evidence that they made a real attempt to sign Demers and he chose to go elsewhere.

In Willis' article, he suggests that adding on an extra year, or going to $5MM would have got it done, which is pure speculation. Demers has spent his career in SJ and Dallas. Maybe he really likes being able to golf year round, or go to the beach on his off days. Or maybe after playing in non-traditional hockey markets, he really values his privacy and not playing in a media bubble. Or maybe he figured that he and Jeff Petry play the same position and are pretty similar players so he decided to call Petry up before making his decision, and Petry told him to stay far, far away. There's a ton of reasons that he might not want to sign in Edmonton. And guys like Willis pretending that there was only one team pursuing him is not helpful

http://oilersnation.com/2016/7/2/why-didn-t-the-edmonton-oil ers-sign-jason-demers

In some sense, I understand it. The Oilers unquestionably gave up the best player in the Hall trade. Nobody is disputing that. And he was an analytics darling. What is a question though is whether the team will be more balanced and better.

Willis suggests we should have kept Hall, signed Demers and the team would be better off. Of course this is premised off the idea that the Oilers could have signed Demers. I think it's equally likely that Chiarelli got an indication that Demers was not going to sign in Edmonton and he knew he needed to go out and find a bonafide 1st pairing RHD. It's been my biggest complaint with the Oilers that they continually go out and get guys that aren't ready for certain roles, plug them in there anyways, don't give them any support and hope for the best. Schultz, Nurse, Yak, Drai in his first year are all examples of this.

Finally, they go out and get a legitimate 1st pairing defenceman (and yes the cost was dear), and Ryan Lambert on Puck Daddy calls it the worst trade of the salary cap era. The alternative was keep the roster intact, probably acquire a #4 defenceman on the cheap, plug him into the 1st pair, right side with Klefbom (who has 107 career NHL games under his belt), pray Klefbom can make it through a season without getting hurt and hope for the best. And we'd be looking at another bottom 5 finish.

And the reality is that this set of circumstances was set in motion long before Chiarelli ever got here. MacT's handling of Petry created this gaping hole in the right side of the defence that has handcuffed Chiarelli to the point that he needed to trade his best player not named McDavid.

I actually have more thoughts on the complaining among the blogosphere that Chiarelli is turning this team into the Bruins, but this post is long enough already, so I'll save that for another day.



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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674533 is a reply to message #674522 ]
Sun, 03 July 2016 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently online Kr55
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Goose wrote on Sat, 02 July 2016 23:54

Have been thinking about this for a couple of days and wasn't sure where to post it. Don't think it deserves it's own thread, so this one seems to make sense. The level of whining coming out of the Oiler's blogosphere is becoming super annoying. The crazy thing is, I'm not even a huge fan of Chiarelli. The Mark Fraser signing is baffling to me. Not a big fan of Eric Gryba, the Reinhart trade (although for reasons that are different than most), his decision to not address the defence at all last year thereby forcing Nurse and Schultz to play way too many minutes. But the level of teen angst being directed towards him is making be feel defensive on his behalf.

I think the Demers signing today put me over the top. It's totally fine to disagree with his moves. But complaining that Chiarelli didn't land a free-agent that accepted less money to sign in Florida, with no indication of what the Oilers offer was kind of bothers me. In a twitter exchange, Jonathan Willis rejected the notion that maybe Demers just chose not to sign here, using the fact that he came to visit Edmonton as evidence that Demers would have signed here if the offer had been sufficient. You could just as easily say that the fact that the Oilers only invited 2 free agents to come and visit, and Demers was one of them, is evidence that they made a real attempt to sign Demers and he chose to go elsewhere.

In Willis' article, he suggests that adding on an extra year, or going to $5MM would have got it done, which is pure speculation. Demers has spent his career in SJ and Dallas. Maybe he really likes being able to golf year round, or go to the beach on his off days. Or maybe after playing in non-traditional hockey markets, he really values his privacy and not playing in a media bubble. Or maybe he figured that he and Jeff Petry play the same position and are pretty similar players so he decided to call Petry up before making his decision, and Petry told him to stay far, far away. There's a ton of reasons that he might not want to sign in Edmonton. And guys like Willis pretending that there was only one team pursuing him is not helpful

http://oilersnation.com/2016/7/2/why-didn-t-the-edmonton-oil ers-sign-jason-demers

In some sense, I understand it. The Oilers unquestionably gave up the best player in the Hall trade. Nobody is disputing that. And he was an analytics darling. What is a question though is whether the team will be more balanced and better.

Willis suggests we should have kept Hall, signed Demers and the team would be better off. Of course this is premised off the idea that the Oilers could have signed Demers. I think it's equally likely that Chiarelli got an indication that Demers was not going to sign in Edmonton and he knew he needed to go out and find a bonafide 1st pairing RHD. It's been my biggest complaint with the Oilers that they continually go out and get guys that aren't ready for certain roles, plug them in there anyways, don't give them any support and hope for the best. Schultz, Nurse, Yak, Drai in his first year are all examples of this.

Finally, they go out and get a legitimate 1st pairing defenceman (and yes the cost was dear), and Ryan Lambert on Puck Daddy calls it the worst trade of the salary cap era. The alternative was keep the roster intact, probably acquire a #4 defenceman on the cheap, plug him into the 1st pair, right side with Klefbom (who has 107 career NHL games under his belt), pray Klefbom can make it through a season without getting hurt and hope for the best. And we'd be looking at another bottom 5 finish.

And the reality is that this set of circumstances was set in motion long before Chiarelli ever got here. MacT's handling of Petry created this gaping hole in the right side of the defence that has handcuffed Chiarelli to the point that he needed to trade his best player not named McDavid.

I actually have more thoughts on the complaining among the blogosphere that Chiarelli is turning this team into the Bruins, but this post is long enough already, so I'll save that for another day.



Great post. I'm feeling very much like you are, especially about all the supposed analytics crowd trying to tear Larsson apart. There are many ways to make arguments in Larsson's favour, but they are not interested in looking at any of them, the narrative must be kept intact. Yet, I see guys take major leaps to try to paint beautiful pictures of Hall like the ranting about Drai's without Hall production using the super tiny sample size (which I was always aware I was guilty of doing while bashing Panarin by using his numbers without Kane, but hey, I'm an Oilers fan icon_biggrin ).

It's all very tiresome and to the point where it's not worth giving much more thought to, those people have shown their colours. The only thing that will start to shut them up is the Oilers winning games. But, even then I suppose, short of winning a cup they can always rant about how we would be a little bit better. Looking forward to Willis pulling up his "If we trade Hall it could cost us the Cup" article if the Oilers lose in the finals one day.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2016 10:11]


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 Re: The Larsson Alternative [message #674534 is a reply to message #674533 ]
Sun, 03 July 2016 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
NZ Oiler Fan  is currently offline NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 2147
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI

2 Cups

Denis Potvin called the Larsson trade a win for NJD in years 1 & 2 but then a big win for the Oilers after that. I'd like to think that he's seen a lot more of Adam Larsson and knows more about playing D than many of the people crucifying Chia for the trade.




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