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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823214 is a reply to message #823208 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016
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The Oilers should have put out this morning that Leon was going to get xrays and get checked out by a specialist for fear of a bad break. Leak to Rishaugh that they won't know the results until late today or tomorrow so he can tweet about it. Then have Leon put on a splint when walking through the airport and make sure you leak pictures to Rishaugh so he can tweet about it. As soon as Leon is on their charter, he can take off the splint and do whatever it is he does. Rishaugh doesn't fly on the private charters so how would be know. Once you land, wait until after the hearing then you can tell the press results came in when they landed and he's fine. Just a bruise.

The NHL likes to punish based on the injury, doesn't matter the act. So unfortunately, Leon didn't roll around on the ice, then get up holding his arm and run off to the room. The Oilers need to train their players to act better. Stop being tough.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823215 is a reply to message #823213 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:54

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

For clarity so I am better understand your point. When Stone says Hague was challenging Nurse to a fight, how would you classify that? That's emotion too, not facts?

No, it's a fact, but it didn't start a fight. It's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Nurse should have his instigator penalty rescinded.

So if a person challenges someone else to a fight, then a few seconds later the other person goes to fight him. The first person didn't start it in your world?

Obviously we have never met. But if you are out somewhere and walk up to a guy, you get in a guys face and you legit challenge him to a fight. Then he punches you shortly after, it's his fault you got into a fight, not yours? Sorry for repeating myself but I am struggling to understand your point of view because it doesn't make sense to me. If Hague doesn't ask to fight, the fight doesn't happen

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 15:13]

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823216 is a reply to message #823213 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:54

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

For clarity so I am better understand your point. When Stone says Hague was challenging Nurse to a fight, how would you classify that? That's emotion too, not facts?

No, it's a fact, but it didn't start a fight. It's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Nurse should have his instigator penalty rescinded.


This is the NHL definition of Instigator.. both Nurse AND Hague qualify.. Hague ticks off more boxes than Nurse.. especially the 1st punch.. in fact it couldn't even be classified as a fight until Hague threw 8 punches before Nurse threw even one.. prior to that it was a "roughing" incident.. .. so both should be suspended.. or none.

Quote:

46.11 Instigator -

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his
actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria:

- distance traveled;

- gloves off first;

- first punch thrown;

- menacing attitude or posture;

- verbal instigation or threats;

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident;

- obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823217 is a reply to message #823212 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:56

.. to be clear.. I think it still was a dumb play by Nurse, a guy pulling top D minutes for his team, and vet that has an "A" on his sweater, to get into a fight with 40 secs left when your team has just secured a ton of momentum for the next game.. the risk didn't even register..

However, when the media boot-lickers, and DoPS say it was an "automatic" suspension.. it was not.. DoPS had a mandatory obligation to review the entire circumstances of the incident.. in accordance with their own rule 46.21.. so this was "their DECISION" .. it was not "out of their hands" and bound by the letter of the "rule book".



I agree, he shouldn't have taken the fight at all. If you want to fight a guy, 40 seconds left in the game when you are up 4-1 is the best time to do it but he shouldn't have done it.

That being said, I really don't like the idea that Hague is faultless in this. In my opinion, giving Nurse the instigator says to me, Hague was the innocent bi-stander doing no wrong. When you challenge a person to fight, to have accepted fault and it was clear he was ready and waiting for it.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823218 is a reply to message #823216 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:08

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:54

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

For clarity so I am better understand your point. When Stone says Hague was challenging Nurse to a fight, how would you classify that? That's emotion too, not facts?

No, it's a fact, but it didn't start a fight. It's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Nurse should have his instigator penalty rescinded.


This is the NHL definition of Instigator.. both Nurse AND Hague qualify.. Hague ticks off more boxes than Nurse.. especially the 1st punch.. in fact it couldn't even be classified as a fight until Hague threw 8 punches before Nurse threw even one.. prior to that it was a "roughing" incident.. .. so both should be suspended.. or none.

Quote:

46.11 Instigator -

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his
actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria:

- distance traveled;

- gloves off first;

- first punch thrown;

- menacing attitude or posture;

- verbal instigation or threats;

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident;

- obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.



IN my opinion, if I am out and I get into someone's face and ask him to fight, that's on me. So if I ask for a fight, I can't go back and say it wasn't my fault. If I don't say anything, the fight doesn't happen.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823219 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Its official..

As expected.. Pietrangelo gets the $5,000 fine!
https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafely/status/16567341331237068 80?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Fkg hilarious.

rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl
Quote:

NHL Player Safety
@NHLPlayerSafely
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been fined $5,000, the maximum allowable under the CBA, for slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.

Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game under Rule 46.21, Instigating in the Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 15:18]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823220 is a reply to message #823209 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.


Think 2 as well. Giving Nurse 1 gives DoPS permission to actually punish 2 hand lumberjack chopping a star players wrist completely away from the play. I'm so happy for Parros being able to do that. Thanks Nurse.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823221 is a reply to message #823219 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:16

Its official..

As expected.. Pietrangelo gets the $5,000 fine!
https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafely/status/16567341331237068 80?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Fkg hilarious.

rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl
Quote:

NHL Player Safety
@NHLPlayerSafely
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been fined $5,000, the maximum allowable under the CBA, for slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.

Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game under Rule 46.21, Instigating in the Final Five Minutes of Regulation.



Parody account :)

@NHLPlayerSafely

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823222 is a reply to message #823217 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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correction - the DOPS doesn't review Nurse's instigator suspension. The NHL Director of Hockey operations does.
DOPS will review Pietrangelo. they have way to give him a $5000 fine and say, 'we had nothing to do with Nurse's decision.'

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823223 is a reply to message #823221 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:19

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:16

Its official..

As expected.. Pietrangelo gets the $5,000 fine!
https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafely/status/16567341331237068 80?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Fkg hilarious.

rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl lmao rofl
Quote:

NHL Player Safety
@NHLPlayerSafely
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been fined $5,000, the maximum allowable under the CBA, for slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.

Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game under Rule 46.21, Instigating in the Final Five Minutes of Regulation.



Parody account :)

@NHLPlayerSafely


Oops.. Got me!


McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823224 is a reply to message #823221 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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From Bruce McCurdy (sometimes they get a good chuckle)
Clear-eyed observers of the two infractions would surely conclude Pietrangelo’s was by far the more egregious, but the fact is there is no “automatic suspension” element to his actions, unlike those of Nurse. Opinions are currently split as to whether the Vegas captain will get two games to Nurse’s one, or if DoPS will simply balance the scales at one game apiece. Meanwhile, pessimists in these parts are suggesting no suspension for A.P. and perhaps a third-round pick be transferred from Edmonton to Calgary to resolve the matter.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823225 is a reply to message #823222 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:21

correction - the DOPS doesn't review Nurse's instigator suspension. The NHL Director of Hockey operations does.
DOPS will review Pietrangelo. they have way to give him a $5000 fine and say, 'we had nothing to do with Nurse's decision.'


True, its Hockey Ops according to 46.21, but isn't DoPS in Hockey Ops, and wouldn't they consult the refs, DoPS in a review?

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823226 is a reply to message #823222 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Location: Edmonton
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:21

correction - the DOPS doesn't review Nurse's instigator suspension. The NHL Director of Hockey operations does.
DOPS will review Pietrangelo. they have way to give him a $5000 fine and say, 'we had nothing to do with Nurse's decision.'


Think I saw that the decision on instigator suspensions was moved to DoPS to decide a while back. Maybe just for consistency.


here is Dreger's tweet about it:

Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
To clarify, @NHLPlayerSafety will determine whether or not to remove the automatic 1 game suspension to Nurse. NHL Director of Officiating, Stephen Walkom decides on rescinding of the instigator. Rarely is the Instigator penalty rescinded, but auto suspension can be.


Walkom decides if the instigator stands, but Perros decides on enforcing the penalty.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 15:28]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823228 is a reply to message #823226 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:26

Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:21

correction - the DOPS doesn't review Nurse's instigator suspension. The NHL Director of Hockey operations does.
DOPS will review Pietrangelo. they have way to give him a $5000 fine and say, 'we had nothing to do with Nurse's decision.'


Think I saw that the decision on instigator suspensions was moved to DoPS to decide a while back. Maybe just for consistency.


here is Dreger's tweet about it:

Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
To clarify, @NHLPlayerSafety will determine whether or not to remove the automatic 1 game suspension to Nurse. NHL Director of Officiating, Stephen Walkom decides on rescinding of the instigator. Rarely is the Instigator penalty rescinded, but auto suspension can be.


Walkom decides if the instigator stands, but Perros decides on enforcing the penalty.


Thanks for clarification.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823229 is a reply to message #823215 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:02


So if a person challenges someone else to a fight, then a few seconds later the other person goes to fight him. The first person didn't start it in your world?

Obviously we have never met. But if you are out somewhere and walk up to a guy, you get in a guys face and you legit challenge him to a fight. Then he punches you shortly after, it's his fault you got into a fight, not yours? Sorry for repeating myself but I am struggling to understand your point of view because it doesn't make sense to me. If Hague doesn't ask to fight, the fight doesn't happen

In a hockey context? Yes. But actually in a legal context I think your scenario ends the same way. You can't walk away from a challenge, then start a fight 10 seconds, and blame the other guy because you punched him. <not a lawyer, opinion for entertainment purposes only>

Last night there was a challenge, it wasn't accepted, the players parted then one player skated across the ice to challenge. I understand you don't like the Nurse suspension, but it makes sense that it wasn't rescinded. The fight doesn't happen unless Nurse skates across the ice.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823231 is a reply to message #823224 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:25

From Bruce McCurdy (sometimes they get a good chuckle)
Clear-eyed observers of the two infractions would surely conclude Pietrangelo’s was by far the more egregious, but the fact is there is no “automatic suspension” element to his actions, unlike those of Nurse. Opinions are currently split as to whether the Vegas captain will get two games to Nurse’s one, or if DoPS will simply balance the scales at one game apiece. Meanwhile, pessimists in these parts are suggesting no suspension for A.P. and perhaps a third-round pick be transferred from Edmonton to Calgary to resolve the matter.


Oilers don't have a 3rd, so to maintain order I guess it has to be a 2nd round pick this time.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823232 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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If Losing Nurse for game 5 doesn't light a fire under this teams arse to put in a good effort in game 5 (vs the turd efforts in 1 and 3), then I don't know what will. We'll miss Nurse, and I'm currently scared of whatever pair Ceci will be on, but nothing this team can't overcome putting in a good effort, especially if Pietro is out for Vegas, by a good margin their top minute all situation D.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823233 is a reply to message #823229 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:02


So if a person challenges someone else to a fight, then a few seconds later the other person goes to fight him. The first person didn't start it in your world?

Obviously we have never met. But if you are out somewhere and walk up to a guy, you get in a guys face and you legit challenge him to a fight. Then he punches you shortly after, it's his fault you got into a fight, not yours? Sorry for repeating myself but I am struggling to understand your point of view because it doesn't make sense to me. If Hague doesn't ask to fight, the fight doesn't happen

In a hockey context? Yes. But actually in a legal context I think your scenario ends the same way. You can't walk away from a challenge, then start a fight 10 seconds, and blame the other guy because you punched him. <not a lawyer, opinion for entertainment purposes only>

Last night there was a challenge, it wasn't accepted, the players parted then one player skated across the ice to challenge. I understand you don't like the Nurse suspension, but it makes sense that it wasn't rescinded. The fight doesn't happen unless Nurse skates across the ice.

We will never agree and I will never accept your explanation. Please don't tell me how I feel. You don't know me so you don't have the ability to speak for me. My opinion on the suspension has nothing to do with "not liking it", it has everything to do with the fact the ref made a mistake in calling the instigator penalty in the first place. Nurse doesn't skate across the ice to fight if Hague doesn't ask him to fight. Without the initial challenge, nothing happens. So to dismiss that and tell me Hague was blameless almost making it sound like he was an innocent bi-stander that got cruelly jumped, is wrong in my opinion.

The point of the instigator rule is to stop guys from jumping on the ice, grabbing someone who's just innocently standing there and beating on a guy that had no interest in fighting. That's not what happened here. The ref made the mistake in calling the instigator rule because both guys had a hand in causing a fight. That's a fact! Hague asked for the fight first. That's a fact! Nurse skated over to go fight Hague as requested. That's a fact! Hague saw him coming and dropped his gloves to fight Nurse. That's a fact! Nurse dropped his gloves as well. That's a fact. Hague threw the first 8 punches. That's a fact! Nurse finished him. That's a fact! All these things are factual evidence based on video and testimony. Both guys wanted to fight, so they fought.

So my "dislike" of the suspension is not because Nurse got it. It's because the refs made a mistake, then the league backed up that mistake and added to it. 2 wrongs don't make a right. It's OK for refs to make a mistake. When they do and you can fix it, then fix it. As soon as it is known Hague called for a fight, there is no instigator anymore.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:00]

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823235 is a reply to message #823233 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:02


So if a person challenges someone else to a fight, then a few seconds later the other person goes to fight him. The first person didn't start it in your world?

Obviously we have never met. But if you are out somewhere and walk up to a guy, you get in a guys face and you legit challenge him to a fight. Then he punches you shortly after, it's his fault you got into a fight, not yours? Sorry for repeating myself but I am struggling to understand your point of view because it doesn't make sense to me. If Hague doesn't ask to fight, the fight doesn't happen

In a hockey context? Yes. But actually in a legal context I think your scenario ends the same way. You can't walk away from a challenge, then start a fight 10 seconds, and blame the other guy because you punched him. <not a lawyer, opinion for entertainment purposes only>

Last night there was a challenge, it wasn't accepted, the players parted then one player skated across the ice to challenge. I understand you don't like the Nurse suspension, but it makes sense that it wasn't rescinded. The fight doesn't happen unless Nurse skates across the ice.

We will never agree and I will never accept your explanation. Please don't tell me how I feel. You don't know me so you don't have the ability to speak for me. My opinion on the suspension has nothing to do with "not liking it", it has everything to do with the fact the ref made a mistake in calling the instigator penalty in the first place. Nurse doesn't skate across the ice to fight if Hague doesn't ask him to fight. Without the initial challenge, nothing happens. So to dismiss that and tell me Hague was blameless almost making it sound like he was an innocent bi-stander that got cruelly jumped, is wrong in my opinion.

The point of the instigator rule is to stop guys from jumping on the ice, grabbing someone who's just innocently standing there and beating on a guy that had no interest in fighting. That's not what happened here. The ref made the mistake in calling the instigator rule because both guys had a hand in causing a fight. That's a fact! Hague asked for the fight first. That's a fact! Nurse skated over to go fight Hague as requested. That's a fact! Hague saw him coming and dropped his gloves to fight Nurse. That's a fact! Nurse dropped his gloves as well. That's a fact. Hague threw the first 8 punches. That's a fact! Nurse finished him. That's a fact! All these things are factual evidence based on video and testimony. Both guys wanted to fight, so they fought.

So my "dislike" of the suspension is not because Nurse got it. It's because the refs made a mistake, then the league backed up that mistake and added to it.

I told you I understand how you feel. Big difference.

You can say the ref made a mistake, but that doesn't really matter. You've explained what you've seen a few times now. To me, based solely on your explanation of the facts, the NHL not rescinding the penalty makes sense to. That's not me trying to explain anything, that's me forming a conclusion based on the argument you brought. Again, it's a big difference. I will point out that if I was trying to explain what's happened, and I'm not, I'd say exactly what you said.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823236 is a reply to message #823231 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43

Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:25

From Bruce McCurdy (sometimes they get a good chuckle)
Clear-eyed observers of the two infractions would surely conclude Pietrangelo’s was by far the more egregious, but the fact is there is no “automatic suspension” element to his actions, unlike those of Nurse. Opinions are currently split as to whether the Vegas captain will get two games to Nurse’s one, or if DoPS will simply balance the scales at one game apiece. Meanwhile, pessimists in these parts are suggesting no suspension for A.P. and perhaps a third-round pick be transferred from Edmonton to Calgary to resolve the matter.


Oilers don't have a 3rd, so to maintain order I guess it has to be a 2nd round pick this time.


.. would a prospect do?

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823237 is a reply to message #823232 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I would hope it would light a fire under them. They would probably feel pissed Nurse got an unjust in their minds, 1 game, he is one of their boys. Then you factor in McD of all people actually said something about Pietro's slash. It's not often McD gives and actual opinion. He usually gives a pretty politically correct answer deferring to the league. They will especially be pissed off is Pietro gets off light.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823238 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Seravallis opinion on Nurse suspension..


https://twitter.com/frank_seravalli/status/16567401831762780 22?cxt=HHwWjMCz9eaa9v0tAAAA

Quote:

Frank Seravalli@frank_seravalli

NHL upholds the suspension for Darnell Nurse, which is brutal. Mark Stone said after the game that Nic Hague asked for the fight before the faceoff.

Quote Tweet
NHL Player Safety

@NHLPlayerSafety
·
2h
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:20]

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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823242 is a reply to message #823238 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:16

Seravallis opinion on Nurse suspension..


https://twitter.com/frank_seravalli/status/16567401831762780 22?cxt=HHwWjMCz9eaa9v0tAAAA

Quote:

Frank Seravalli@frank_seravalli

NHL upholds the suspension for Darnell Nurse, which is brutal. Mark Stone said after the game that Nic Hague asked for the fight before the faceoff.

Quote Tweet
NHL Player Safety

@NHLPlayerSafety
·
2h
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.



The league will never overlook an opportunity to stick one to the Oil.

The ref made it easy for the league to follow through by calling the instigator.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823243 is a reply to message #823181 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:50

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:42

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

If Nurse gets suspended for 1 game because that's the rule even though Hague challenged him to fight and threw the first punches, Pietrangelo better get 2 or 3 games. Pietrangelo came over on purpose trying to severely injury Drai. Nurse fought a willing player who wanted the fight to happen. It would be so horrible of the league to give the same penalty. What's the message to other players?

When this doesn't happen, I hope you don't decide that the league not doing what you want is a sign of bias. I agree though, Pietrangelo should be done for the series, but I don't expect that to happen.


I will say, I do think this is the coward's way out for the league and that if they weren't suspending Pietrangelo, it's likely that Nurse does not get a game too.

That said, I also agree with those saying that Nurse shouldn't have put himself in that position. He is a number one d-man by time on ice, and he fought Vegas' #6. If he gets suspended or hurt, then we're way worse for the exchange. I just don't think it was worth the risk. Pietrangelo's actions were stupid, but they were at least on the other team's top player - if he gets suspended and Draisaitl is injured then he may have even won the exchange. You don't see any of the Knights trying to fight Desharnais and I wish Kane and Nurse would pick their dance partners better. If you need to fight, grab Shea Theodore at least and feed him, not Nick Hague, whoever that is.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823245 is a reply to message #823243 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 17:00

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:50

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:42

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

If Nurse gets suspended for 1 game because that's the rule even though Hague challenged him to fight and threw the first punches, Pietrangelo better get 2 or 3 games. Pietrangelo came over on purpose trying to severely injury Drai. Nurse fought a willing player who wanted the fight to happen. It would be so horrible of the league to give the same penalty. What's the message to other players?

When this doesn't happen, I hope you don't decide that the league not doing what you want is a sign of bias. I agree though, Pietrangelo should be done for the series, but I don't expect that to happen.


I will say, I do think this is the coward's way out for the league and that if they weren't suspending Pietrangelo, it's likely that Nurse does not get a game too.

That said, I also agree with those saying that Nurse shouldn't have put himself in that position. He is a number one d-man by time on ice, and he fought Vegas' #6. If he gets suspended or hurt, then we're way worse for the exchange. I just don't think it was worth the risk. Pietrangelo's actions were stupid, but they were at least on the other team's top player - if he gets suspended and Draisaitl is injured then he may have even won the exchange. You don't see any of the Knights trying to fight Desharnais and I wish Kane and Nurse would pick their dance partners better. If you need to fight, grab Shea Theodore at least and feed him, not Nick Hague, whoever that is.


Nurse just gets jacked up sometimes, like when he starts chasing a guy way out of position. Love the passion he had for the game, but gets him in bad spots now and then.

All he had to do there was skate near and tell Hague he's up for a fight and they could have squared off like normal.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823247 is a reply to message #823245 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 16:03

Nurse just gets jacked up sometimes, like when he starts chasing a guy way out of position. Love the passion he had for the game, but gets him in bad spots now and then.


Lots of turmoil still in Darnell's game.

Inside Nurse's mind playing D

https://i.imgflip.com/7lg8vp.gif

Inside Ekholm's mind playing D

https://i.imgflip.com/7lg9wn.gif

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823248 is a reply to message #823245 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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It's not about squaring up for me, it's about fighting him at all. There's too much risk when you're a 23-25 minute guy taking on a 13-15 minute guy. If you get knocked out and can't play the next game or the next week, then you've done nothing but got out a little anger. If you knock him out? So what - he's their worst guy and the next guy in line isn't going to be a huge drop-off likely.

Nurse fighting Theodore or Pietrangelo or Eichel I can wrap my head around. Fighting Hague or Kolesar?! There's no point. Leave those for our own fourth line guys or sixth defenceman. Those are the guys you tell point blank that they're not good enough for you to bother fighting.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823249 is a reply to message #823248 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Oh, also there's this to stoke the rage in here:

Quote:


Sportsnet Stats
@SNstats

During the regular season, there were 2 instigator penalties in the final 5 minutes of the 3rd period.

Neither resulted in a suspension

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823250 is a reply to message #823242 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 15:52

The league will never overlook an opportunity to stick one to the Oil.

The ref made it easy for the league to follow through by calling the instigator.


The instigator rule is for initiating a fight, there was no fight until Hague threw 8 punches, Hague turned the altercation into a "fight".. prior to that it was a wrestling match, deserving of a roughing call at worst, where the instigator rule doesn't apply.

Horrible ruling.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823253 is a reply to message #823249 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Adam wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 16:27

Oh, also there's this to stoke the rage in here:

Quote:


Sportsnet Stats
@SNstats

During the regular season, there were 2 instigator penalties in the final 5 minutes of the 3rd period.

Neither resulted in a suspension



Not rage really, just resentment for an incompetent NHL DOPS and its effects on my home town team.

That info you posted goes back to what I was trying to point out previously, a suspension is not "automatic", according to rule 46.21 its mandatory that every incident is reviewed to validate the original on ice instigator penalty and whether there will be an actual suspension.. all the media saying it was an "automatic" suspension, didn't read the NHL's rule book, its ALL reviewed before a suspension is applied.

So according to your post, in accordance with rule 46.21, it looks like Hockey Ops did "review" the original instigator calls for at least 2 calls during regular season, and rescinded them. and this was when the impact is relatively insignificant to the teams involved (regular season).
Makes their Nurse decision even more questionable.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 17:50]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823254 is a reply to message #823253 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 17:39

Adam wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 16:27

Oh, also there's this to stoke the rage in here:

Quote:


Sportsnet Stats
@SNstats

During the regular season, there were 2 instigator penalties in the final 5 minutes of the 3rd period.

Neither resulted in a suspension



Not rage really, just resentment for an incompetent NHL DOPS and its effects my home town team.

That info you posted goes back to what I was trying to point out previously, a suspension is not "automatic", according to rule 46.21 its mandatory that every incident is reviewed to validate the original on ice instigator penalty and whether there will be an actual suspension.. all the media saying it was an "automatic" suspension, didn't read the NHL's rule book, its ALL reviewed before a suspension is applied.

And it looks like the Hockey Ops rescinded at least 2 calls during regular season when the impact is relatively insignificant to the teams involved. Makes their Nurse decision even more questionable.



I think we all know that George Parros is a coward, as is Colin Campbell and a bunch of the brass at the NHL offices. It's not an anti-Oilers bias, it's a belief that you can't penalize a team because then if they lose it's not fair.

That ignores the entire part of the equation of who put them in that position. It's no different than with the failure to call penalties on a team who's taken several already. There's a belief you have to even things up before you can call more.

The Nurse thing gave the NHL and Parros a great opportunity to even it up (at least to some extent). My bet is we get two games for Pietrangelo, and the NHL can go to sleep easy, knowing that the Knights aren't AS disadvantaged with the Oilers out a guy too for the first one.


"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823255 is a reply to message #823254 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Adam wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 16:49

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 17:39

Adam wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 16:27

Oh, also there's this to stoke the rage in here:

Quote:


Sportsnet Stats
@SNstats

During the regular season, there were 2 instigator penalties in the final 5 minutes of the 3rd period.

Neither resulted in a suspension



Not rage really, just resentment for an incompetent NHL DOPS and its effects my home town team.

That info you posted goes back to what I was trying to point out previously, a suspension is not "automatic", according to rule 46.21 its mandatory that every incident is reviewed to validate the original on ice instigator penalty and whether there will be an actual suspension.. all the media saying it was an "automatic" suspension, didn't read the NHL's rule book, its ALL reviewed before a suspension is applied.

And it looks like the Hockey Ops rescinded at least 2 calls during regular season when the impact is relatively insignificant to the teams involved. Makes their Nurse decision even more questionable.



I think we all know that George Parros is a coward, as is Colin Campbell and a bunch of the brass at the NHL offices. It's not an anti-Oilers bias, it's a belief that you can't penalize a team because then if they lose it's not fair.

That ignores the entire part of the equation of who put them in that position. It's no different than with the failure to call penalties on a team who's taken several already. There's a belief you have to even things up before you can call more.

The Nurse thing gave the NHL and Parros a great opportunity to even it up (at least to some extent). My bet is we get two games for Pietrangelo, and the NHL can go to sleep easy, knowing that the Knights aren't AS disadvantaged with the Oilers out a guy too for the first one.



I agree that "game/score management" is going on way too much, and its become so consistent a characteristic of NHL referring, that teams even plan game and team roster composition strategies for it, like Sutter's LA teams taking as many interference penalties as they want, knowing the refs can only call a max. of 4 to 6 all game..

Wish Nurse would have just skated to the bench, then DOPS would really be squirming now on what to do with PA.
I think he only gets 1, effectively creates an non-decision for DOPS.. Nurse & PA cancel .. no risk of affecting outcome.. no DOPS scrutiny.. they can all go back to their desks and open up SportsBet on their laptops..

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 18:04]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823256 is a reply to message #823255 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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So any word on that goon’s hearing? I can’t see how they can credibly come out with a straight face and say that deserves the same or less as what Nurse did (and I still say that’s an absolutely laughable suspension). Any less than 2 games for that would be a joke.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823257 is a reply to message #823256 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilergirl94 is currently offline Oilergirl94
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Official: 1 freaking game.

Mike wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 18:05

So any word on that goon’s hearing? I can’t see how they can credibly come out with a straight face and say that deserves the same or less as what Nurse did (and I still say that’s an absolutely laughable suspension). Any less than 2 games for that would be a joke.



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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823258 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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One game for Petro.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823259 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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One game.. as it was always going to be.

https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafety
Quote:


NHL Player Safety

@NHLPlayerSafety
·
13m
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for one playoff game for Slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.
nhl.com
Pietrangelo suspended 1 game
Golden Knights defenseman, Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for 1 playoff game for slashing Oilers forward, Leo

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823260 is a reply to message #823259 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 21:18

One game.. as it was always going to be.

https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafety
Quote:


NHL Player Safety

@NHLPlayerSafety
·
13m
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for one playoff game for Slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.
nhl.com
Pietrangelo suspended 1 game
Golden Knights defenseman, Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for 1 playoff game for slashing Oilers forward, Leo



Awesome. Well, let’s get Vinnie to go break Eichel’s ankle. He’ll miss game 6. All good.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823261 is a reply to message #823260 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Mike wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 17:25

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 21:18

One game.. as it was always going to be.

https://twitter.com/NHLPlayerSafety
Quote:


NHL Player Safety

@NHLPlayerSafety
·
13m
Vegas’ Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for one playoff game for Slashing against Edmonton’s Leon Draisaitl.
nhl.com
Pietrangelo suspended 1 game
Golden Knights defenseman, Alex Pietrangelo has been suspended for 1 playoff game for slashing Oilers forward, Leo



Awesome. Well, let’s get Vinnie to go break Eichel’s ankle. He’ll miss game 6. All good.


PA is their top player, he's on the PK, PP, and responsible for a lot of their puck movement up ice.. it'll be interesting to see how much pressure the Oil can put on Theodore and how he handles it .. it wasn't looking too good last game.

Bouchard Viking

Ceci Kulak

Dezzie BroBerg

Kulak + Ceci might be able to handle the load..

Big question is Broberg.. he'll be on his proper side so he should feel more at home than playing the RD like he's done at times in the playoffs so far.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823263 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Parros is a joke. That is all.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823265 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 9784
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
Every opportunity for parity must be taken. Thems the NHL rules I guess

If nurse didn't instigate then Pietro likely just gets a fine.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 19:36]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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