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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823167 is a reply to message #823165 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jay is currently offline Jay
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 09:15

Calling it - NHL will fine Pietrangelo and suspend Nurse.

No, Peter is getting suspended. The only question is if they "even it up" by holding up the absurd instigator call on Nurse.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823172 is a reply to message #823167 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I read a tweet with a quote from Stone saying Hague asked Nurse to fight at the faceoff right before it happened. So if the opposing player challenged Nurse to fight, Nurse skates over to oblige him. When Nurse shows up, Hague drops his gloves first because he wants to fight and throws the first several punches because he was ready and wanted to fight. How is it an instigator to Nurse when the Knight wanted the fight?

I really, really hope the NHL doesn't punish Nurse for the ref making a mistake on the play. It should have been 2 fighting majors between 2 willing combatants. That's it. But this is the NHL. They don't like correcting mistakes, they prefer to double down on their mistakes.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 10:46]

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823173 is a reply to message #823172 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
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So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823177 is a reply to message #823173 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823178 is a reply to message #823135 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Ragnarok73 wrote on Wed, 10 May 2023 23:04

Enough bounce-*back* games- PLEASE start going with bounce-*forward* games for the rest of this series…


100% this. The Oilers are better than these guys as a team. Don't foster the oh we will get that one back mentality. The need to think move forward because the job ain't done until it is done.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823179 is a reply to message #823177 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

If Nurse gets suspended for 1 game because that's the rule even though Hague challenged him to fight and threw the first punches, Pietrangelo better get 2 or 3 games. Pietrangelo came over on purpose trying to severely injury Drai. Nurse fought a willing player who wanted the fight to happen. It would be so horrible of the league to give the same penalty. What's the message to other players?

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823180 is a reply to message #823177 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stemhovlichski is currently offline stemhovlichski
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Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.


Here's the rule:

"A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime (see 46.12), shall be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident.

When the one-game suspension is imposed, the Coach shall be fined $10,000 – a fine that will double for each subsequent incident.

The suspension shall be served unless, upon review of the incident, the Director of Hockey Operations, at his discretion, deems the incident is not related to the score, previous incidents in the game or prior games, retaliatory in nature, “message sending”, etc. The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense.

No team appeals will be permitted either verbally or in writing regarding the assessment of this automatic suspension as all incidents are reviewed by the Director of Hockey Operations as outlined above."

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"...the Oilers have been rebuilding for so long that it’s hard not to be cynical." - NBC's Ryan Dadoun Jan 2, 2015

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823181 is a reply to message #823179 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:42

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

If Nurse gets suspended for 1 game because that's the rule even though Hague challenged him to fight and threw the first punches, Pietrangelo better get 2 or 3 games. Pietrangelo came over on purpose trying to severely injury Drai. Nurse fought a willing player who wanted the fight to happen. It would be so horrible of the league to give the same penalty. What's the message to other players?

When this doesn't happen, I hope you don't decide that the league not doing what you want is a sign of bias. I agree though, Pietrangelo should be done for the series, but I don't expect that to happen.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823182 is a reply to message #823180 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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stemhovlichski wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:43

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.


Here's the rule:

"A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime (see 46.12), shall be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident.

When the one-game suspension is imposed, the Coach shall be fined $10,000 – a fine that will double for each subsequent incident.

The suspension shall be served unless, upon review of the incident, the Director of Hockey Operations, at his discretion, deems the incident is not related to the score, previous incidents in the game or prior games, retaliatory in nature, “message sending”, etc. The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense.

No team appeals will be permitted either verbally or in writing regarding the assessment of this automatic suspension as all incidents are reviewed by the Director of Hockey Operations as outlined above."

I would hope based on the wording of the rule and the fact Hague himself according to his captain, asked for the fight, the league would overturn it.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823183 is a reply to message #823181 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:50

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:42

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 12:34

nullterm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59

So far, it's only been announced that Pietroangelo will have a hearing today regarding his fate. No word yet on Nurse (if any).

As of now, per the written rule, Nurse is suspended.

It’s pending review that the instigator suspension could be rescinded, meaning if it’s not rescinded we likely won’t hear anything and Nurse will be out for game 5.

If Nurse gets suspended for 1 game because that's the rule even though Hague challenged him to fight and threw the first punches, Pietrangelo better get 2 or 3 games. Pietrangelo came over on purpose trying to severely injury Drai. Nurse fought a willing player who wanted the fight to happen. It would be so horrible of the league to give the same penalty. What's the message to other players?

When this doesn't happen, I hope you don't decide that the league not doing what you want is a sign of bias. I agree though, Pietrangelo should be done for the series, but I don't expect that to happen.

I won't think the league is bias, I know what the league is. It's a bunch of guys who view the "rules" not as set rules but loose guidelines. They can follow the rules if they feel like it but the "rules" can be changed depending on if they like the player or not, how they are feeling that day, guys resumes meaning how many cups he's got, what teams he's played for, if he's won awards, etc and a guys past history. IF a player doesn't have a history but decides, today I am going to break a guys arm, they can do it and probably won't get punished as harshly as if the guy has a reputation of playing at the line.



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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823184 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently online Kr55
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NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823185 is a reply to message #823184 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

Unreal. Not that I am shocked but unreal. The guy asks to fight multiple times but you give Nurse the instigator then fine the coach on top of it.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823186 is a reply to message #823185 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:25

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

Unreal. Not that I am shocked but unreal. The guy asks to fight multiple times but you give Nurse the instigator then fine the coach on top of it.

And you thought the rules were a loose guideline.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823187 is a reply to message #823186 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:26

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:25

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

Unreal. Not that I am shocked but unreal. The guy asks to fight multiple times but you give Nurse the instigator then fine the coach on top of it.

And you thought the rules were a loose guideline.

They are. It all depends on the player.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823188 is a reply to message #823184 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823189 is a reply to message #823188 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.

If the NHL is going to fag their finger in people's faces and hide behind "rules are rules" then come down on Pietrangelo hard. You can't allow sit there and say you are all about player safety then watch a guy try to break another players arm on purpose and do nothing.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823190 is a reply to message #823188 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.


Kulak/Ceci we’re a decent pair when Nurse missed time last season…

Broberg’s time to shine

Survivor CHAMP S52 | S66
OG's #MUSTWIN Scale
Category 1 - Lightly Musty
Category 2 - Moderately Musty
Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
Category 5 - Incredibly Musty

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823191 is a reply to message #823186 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:26

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:25

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

Unreal. Not that I am shocked but unreal. The guy asks to fight multiple times but you give Nurse the instigator then fine the coach on top of it.

And you thought the rules were a loose guideline.


Mark Stone said Hague asked for that fight on the faceoff. Guess we can blame Nurse for taking the bait so easily, but that's just a painfully weak instigator to hold up. And the application of the suspension is not at all the spirit of why that rule was created, which has an opening left in the rule to not suspend if the instigation was not for the reason of the players team losing, or retribution. That's just a classic fight of 2 willing guys, and Hague wanted it even more than Nurse.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823192 is a reply to message #823189 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:30

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.

If the NHL is going to wag their finger in people's faces and hide behind "rules are rules" then come down on Pietrangelo hard. You can't allow sit there and say you are all about player safety then watch a guy try to break another players arm on purpose and do nothing.

They are doing something. They're suspending him for a game (probably)... because there isn't a rule specifically about tomahawking a star player's arm. It's all up for interpretation.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823193 is a reply to message #823187 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:26

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:25

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.

Unreal. Not that I am shocked but unreal. The guy asks to fight multiple times but you give Nurse the instigator then fine the coach on top of it.

And you thought the rules were a loose guideline.

They are. It all depends on the player.


I think it all depends on the DoPS and which way the wind is blowing. I believe this is Nurse’s 3rd career suspension and the least worthy of supplemental disciplinary action.

The inconsistency in that department gives me concern about the Pietrangelo hearing. He should get a couple games, but I’m prepared for a 5k fan.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823194 is a reply to message #823190 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tardigrade81 is currently offline tardigrade81
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When do we hear the outcome of Pietrangelo ?

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823195 is a reply to message #823190 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:32

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.


Kulak/Ceci we’re a decent pair when Nurse missed time last season…

Broberg’s time to shine


Ceci has regressed, otherwise I’m with you. Nurse wears the brunt of Ceci’s deficiencies this year.

Or at least in my mind.


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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823196 is a reply to message #823194 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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tardigrade81 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:41

When do we hear the outcome of Pietrangelo ?


Hearing Is at 230 PST

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823197 is a reply to message #823195 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:42

Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:32

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:28

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:23

NHL taking the cowards way out:

NHL Player Safety @NHLPlayerSafety
Edmonton’s Darnell Nurse has been automatically suspended for one game and Coach Jay Woodcroft has been fined $10,000 under rule 46.21, Instigating in Final Five Minutes of Regulation.


Such BS, and hopefully Pietrangelo gets multiple games (doubt it). Let’s see the Nurse haters now that he’s missing a game. Huge hole in the top 4 and hopefully offset by Pietrangelo being gone.


Kulak/Ceci we’re a decent pair when Nurse missed time last season…

Broberg’s time to shine


Ceci has regressed, otherwise I’m with you. Nurse wears the brunt of Ceci’s deficiencies this year.

Or at least in my mind.


I was at the game last night. Ceci doesn't look right. He looks like he's laboring when he's on the ice.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823198 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Rule 46.2

Quote:

46.2 Aggressor

The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who
continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his
opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling
combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won
the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further
attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no
longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall
be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.
A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will
have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and
suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of
an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game
misconduct penalty (aggressor).


I don't think Nurse qualifies as the "aggressor" according to NHL rule 46.2
It also appears by this rule, that during regular play (<55 minutes) a suspension only applies if you're the aggressor, in ADDITION to being the instigator.
This happened in the last 5 minutes, so different rule, but should factor in the decision to suspend Nurse if the spirit of rule 46.2 (who is the Aggressor) holds any merit with Hockey Ops.


Rule 46.11

Quote:

46.11 Instigator -

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his
actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria:

- distance traveled;

- gloves off first;

- first punch thrown;

- menacing attitude or posture;

- verbal instigation or threats;

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident;

- obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation shall
be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting
and a ten-minute misconduct.

If the same player is deemed to be the instigator of a second
altercation in the same game, he shall be assessed an instigating
minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

When a player receives his third instigator penalty in one Regular
season, he is automatically given a game misconduct following that
third violation.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of
an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game
misconduct penalty (aggressor).

Any request by a Club to have an instigator penalty reviewed and
rescinded by the League must follow the same procedure for game
misconduct penalties as outlined in 23.2.



This defines the instigator.

- distance traveled; Nurse skates to Hague, but the play was still live.. and even so, what distance qualifies as an instigator? its not like a goalie skating down from the opposite end of the ice..

- gloves off first; Simultaneous Nurse/Hague

- first punch thrown; Hague punches Nurse EIGHT (8) time BEFORE Nurse tosses even ONE (1)
https://i.imgflip.com/7lchnl.gif

- menacing attitude or posture; Indefinitive.. what does this even mean?

- verbal instigation or threats; Indefinitive.. Both were verbally "threatening" each other all game.. nothing definitive. Hague was even threatening other players like Kane..

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident; Indefinitive.. speculative at best

Based on this definition, I don't think Nurse should have been assessed the "Instigator" in that situation.. in which case the game suspension that is assessed with the Instigator penalty in the last 5 minutes of a game, which everyone in media is quoting, does not apply (Rule 46.12 below).


Rule 46.12

Quote:

46.12 Instigator in Final Five Minutes of Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime) -

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an
altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at any time
in overtime shall be assessed an instigator minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, and a game misconduct penalty, subject to the
conditions outlined in 46.22.


Rule 46.21

Quote:

46.21 Fines and Suspensions – Instigator in Final Five Minutes of
Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime)

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5)
minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime (see 46.12), shall
be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident.

When the one-game suspension is imposed, the Coach shall be
fined $10,000 – a fine that will double for each subsequent incident.

The suspension shall be served unless, upon review of the
incident, the Director of Hockey Operations, at his discretion, deems
the incident is not related to the score, previous incidents in the game
or prior games, retaliatory in nature, “message sending”, etc.

The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense.

This suspension shall be served in addition to any other automatic
suspensions a player may incur for an accumulation of three or more
instigator penalties.

No team appeals will be permitted either verbally or in writing
regarding the assessment of this automatic suspension as ALL
incidents are reviewed by the Director of Hockey Operations as
outlined above.


Based on this, Nurse's instigator status in that incident WILL BE reviewed by Hockey Ops.. and based on the NHL definition of "instigator", a solid case to rescind it, and no suspension.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:14]

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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823199 is a reply to message #823191 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndersonRules is currently offline AndersonRules
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You nailed it, though. Nurse was foolish to take up the challenge - regardless of whether he received the instigator or not. The game was in hand - finish it out; no need to risk injury in a meaningless fight that isn't even going to send a message.

That said - the league is even more foolish for not rescinding the instigator penalty / automatic suspension. Absolute joke. Which when translated means "I am not at all surprised."

I am, however, fairly confident that they let Nurse's unwarranted suspension hold so that Vegas can't complain when Pietrangelo is suspended too (whether for one game or more remains to be seen).

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823200 is a reply to message #823198 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
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The league is a joke.

I'm waiting for the double punch line of Pietroangelo just getting a $5k fine.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823201 is a reply to message #823198 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:07

Rule 46.2

Quote:

46.2 Aggressor

The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who
continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his
opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling
combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won
the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further
attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no
longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall
be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.
A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will
have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and
suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of
an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game
misconduct penalty (aggressor).


I don't think Nurse qualifies as the "aggressor" according to NHL rule 46.2
It also seem that during regular play (<55 minutes) a suspension only applies if you're the aggressor, in ADDITION to being the instigator.


Rule 46.11

Quote:

46.11 Instigator -

An instigator of an altercation shall be a player who by his
actions or demeanor demonstrates any/some of the following criteria:

- distance traveled;

- gloves off first;

- first punch thrown;

- menacing attitude or posture;

- verbal instigation or threats;

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident;

- obvious retribution for a previous incident in the game or season.

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation shall
be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting
and a ten-minute misconduct.

If the same player is deemed to be the instigator of a second
altercation in the same game, he shall be assessed an instigating
minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

When a player receives his third instigator penalty in one Regular
season, he is automatically given a game misconduct following that
third violation.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of
an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game
misconduct penalty (aggressor).

Any request by a Club to have an instigator penalty reviewed and
rescinded by the League must follow the same procedure for game
misconduct penalties as outlined in 23.2.



This defines the instigator.

- distance traveled; Nurse travels skates to Hague, but the play was still live.. and even so, what distance qualifies as an instigator? its not like a goalie skating down from the opposite end of the ice..

- gloves off first; Simultaneous Nurse/Hague

- first punch thrown; Hague punches Nurse EIGHT (8) time BEFORE Nurse tosses even ONE (1)

- menacing attitude or posture; Indefinitive.. what does this even mean?

- verbal instigation or threats; Indefinitive.. Both were verbally "threatening" each other all game.. nothing definitive. Hague was even threatening other players like Kane..

- conduct in retaliation to a prior game (or season) incident; Indefinitive.. speculative at best

Based on this definition, I don't think Nurse should have been assessed the "Instigator" in that situation.. in which case the game suspension that is assessed with the Instigator penalty in the last 5 minutes of a game, which everyone in media is quoting, does not apply (Rule 46.12 below).


Rule 46.12

Quote:

46.12 Instigator in Final Five Minutes of Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime) -

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an
altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at any time
in overtime shall be assessed an instigator minor penalty, a major
penalty for fighting, and a game misconduct penalty, subject to the
conditions outlined in 46.22.


Rule 46.21

Quote:

46.21 Fines and Suspensions – Instigator in Final Five Minutes of
Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime)

A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5)
minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime (see 46.12), shall
be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident.

When the one-game suspension is imposed, the Coach shall be
fined $10,000 – a fine that will double for each subsequent incident.

The suspension shall be served unless, upon review of the
incident, the Director of Hockey Operations, at his discretion, deems
the incident is not related to the score, previous incidents in the game
or prior games, retaliatory in nature, “message sending”, etc.

The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense.

This suspension shall be served in addition to any other automatic
suspensions a player may incur for an accumulation of three or more
instigator penalties.

No team appeals will be permitted either verbally or in writing
regarding the assessment of this automatic suspension as ALL
incidents are reviewed by the Director of Hockey Operations as
outlined above.


Based on this, Nurse's instigator status in that incident WILL BE reviewed by Hockey Ops.. and based on the NHL definition of "instigator", a solid case to rescind it, and no suspension.

So based on what you posted from the rules.

Hague took off his gloves first. Now if you want to say they tied, fine but he was first by a half second.

Hague threw the first 8 punches.

Hague challenged Nurse to a fight, maybe 10-15 second earlier. This was admitted by Stone. So Hague would have had the menacing attitude. When you challenge a person to fight, that's a menacing attitude. He also did verbal instigation by asking Nurse to fight.

Conduct relating to the game. The Oilers were beating the crap out of Vegas. It was late in the game. It was 4-1, game was over. Vegas was mad. Hague wanted to fight.

So the only thing Nurse did by the definition of being an instigator was he skated to the guy.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823202 is a reply to message #823201 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 13:14

So based on what you posted from the rules.

Hague took off his gloves first. Now if you want to say they tied, fine but he was first by a half second.

Hague threw the first 8 punches.

Hague challenged Nurse to a fight, maybe 10-15 second earlier. This was admitted by Stone. So Hague would have had the menacing attitude. When you challenge a person to fight, that's a menacing attitude. He also did verbal instigation by asking Nurse to fight.

Conduct relating to the game. The Oilers were beating the crap out of Vegas. It was late in the game. It was 4-1, game was over. Vegas was mad. Hague wanted to fight.

So the only thing Nurse did by the definition of being an instigator was he skated to the guy.


I didn't know about the quote from Stone.. in which case yes.. it was more Hague as instigator than Nurse.. based on the NHL rules book of course.. which doesn't mean much when Hockey Ops makes decisions.

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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823203 is a reply to message #823201 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:14


So based on what you posted from the rules.

Hague took off his gloves first. Now if you want to say they tied, fine but he was first by a half second.

Hague threw the first 8 punches.

Hague challenged Nurse to a fight, maybe 10-15 second earlier. This was admitted by Stone. So Hague would have had the menacing attitude. When you challenge a person to fight, that's a menacing attitude. He also did verbal instigation by asking Nurse to fight.

Conduct relating to the game. The Oilers were beating the crap out of Vegas. It was late in the game. It was 4-1, game was over. Vegas was mad. Hague wanted to fight.

So the only thing Nurse did by the definition of being an instigator was he skated to the guy.

When you put it this way the suspension seems just. The gloves coming off nearly simultaneously is irrelevant because the fight was inevitable when Nurse skated over to start the fight. The offer to fight 15 seconds over is irrelevant because the fight didn't happen then. Vegas being mad is irrelevant because there isn't a rule against being mad. Hague being a willing combatant is irrelevant because he was smart enough not to start a fight. The fight happened because Nurse skated over. Lesson learned.

Just kidding. No one learns anything.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823204 is a reply to message #823203 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:25

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:14


So based on what you posted from the rules.

Hague took off his gloves first. Now if you want to say they tied, fine but he was first by a half second.

Hague threw the first 8 punches.

Hague challenged Nurse to a fight, maybe 10-15 second earlier. This was admitted by Stone. So Hague would have had the menacing attitude. When you challenge a person to fight, that's a menacing attitude. He also did verbal instigation by asking Nurse to fight.

Conduct relating to the game. The Oilers were beating the crap out of Vegas. It was late in the game. It was 4-1, game was over. Vegas was mad. Hague wanted to fight.

So the only thing Nurse did by the definition of being an instigator was he skated to the guy.

When you put it this way the suspension seems just. The gloves coming off nearly simultaneously is irrelevant because the fight was inevitable when Nurse skated over to start the fight. The offer to fight 15 seconds over is irrelevant because the fight didn't happen then. Vegas being mad is irrelevant because there isn't a rule against being mad. Hague being a willing combatant is irrelevant because he was smart enough not to start a fight. The fight happened because Nurse skated over. Lesson learned.

Just kidding. No one learns anything.


To be faaaaair… there was no reason for Nurse to do what he did. If he was yes to fight the Hague, then he should have accepted off the draw. Kind of a goober way to handle it by him.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823205 is a reply to message #823204 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently online Kr55
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Oscargasm wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:36

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:25

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:14


So based on what you posted from the rules.

Hague took off his gloves first. Now if you want to say they tied, fine but he was first by a half second.

Hague threw the first 8 punches.

Hague challenged Nurse to a fight, maybe 10-15 second earlier. This was admitted by Stone. So Hague would have had the menacing attitude. When you challenge a person to fight, that's a menacing attitude. He also did verbal instigation by asking Nurse to fight.

Conduct relating to the game. The Oilers were beating the crap out of Vegas. It was late in the game. It was 4-1, game was over. Vegas was mad. Hague wanted to fight.

So the only thing Nurse did by the definition of being an instigator was he skated to the guy.

When you put it this way the suspension seems just. The gloves coming off nearly simultaneously is irrelevant because the fight was inevitable when Nurse skated over to start the fight. The offer to fight 15 seconds over is irrelevant because the fight didn't happen then. Vegas being mad is irrelevant because there isn't a rule against being mad. Hague being a willing combatant is irrelevant because he was smart enough not to start a fight. The fight happened because Nurse skated over. Lesson learned.

Just kidding. No one learns anything.


To be faaaaair… there was no reason for Nurse to do what he did. If he was yes to fight the Hague, then he should have accepted off the draw. Kind of a goober way to handle it by him.


He probably did it in the worst possible way for appearances, and even for himself, going the huggy route and letting Hague get a load of shots in first.

Still, if Perros didn't need an excuse to even things up, he probably would have loved Nurse finally obliging to Hague like he did.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823206 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Nurse

“For 40 minutes, he was out there challenging and trying to provoke a fight,” Nurse said. “For me, you play 24 minutes a game and you don’t want to take yourself out at the wrong time.

“With 30 seconds left in a 4-1 game, to do it a fair way, to have (a) fair fight where both people want to fight and are willing to engage, I think that is what took place last night.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-nurse-suspended- one-game-for-instigator-penalty-in-game-4-vs-golden-knights/

9.9 /10 no one in that scrap ever gets an instigator.. either in the regular season.. and especially in the playoffs to a team's top player.. they usually reserve those instigator calls for the 4th liners to diffuse dangerous situations.. Despite what the media types will say, that suspension was at the sole discretion of a mandatory Hockey Ops review as to whether Nurse was a true "instigator" in that altercation, according to their rules Hague was as much of an "instigator" as he was.

Cue Pietrangelo getting the maximum fine.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43]

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Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823207 is a reply to message #823206 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:41

Nurse

“For 40 minutes, he was out there challenging and trying to provoke a fight,” Nurse said. “For me, you play 24 minutes a game and you don’t want to take yourself out at the wrong time.

“With 30 seconds left in a 4-1 game, to do it a fair way, to have (a) fair fight where both people want to fight and are willing to engage, I think that is what took place last night.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-nurse-suspended- one-game-for-instigator-penalty-in-game-4-vs-golden-knights/

9.9 /10 no one in that scrap ever gets an instigator.. in the regular season.. and especially in the playoffs to a team's top player.. they usually reserve those instigator calls for the 4th liners to diffuse dangerous situations.. Despite what the media types will say, that suspension was at the sole discretion of a mandatory Hockey Ops review as to whether Nurse was a true "instigator" in that altercation, according to their rules Hague was as much of an "instigator" as he was.

Cue Pietrangelo getting the maximum fine.

Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823208 is a reply to message #823206 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:41

Nurse

“For 40 minutes, he was out there challenging and trying to provoke a fight,” Nurse said. “For me, you play 24 minutes a game and you don’t want to take yourself out at the wrong time.

“With 30 seconds left in a 4-1 game, to do it a fair way, to have (a) fair fight where both people want to fight and are willing to engage, I think that is what took place last night.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-nurse-suspended- one-game-for-instigator-penalty-in-game-4-vs-golden-knights/

9.9 /10 no one in that scrap ever gets an instigator.. either in the regular season.. and especially in the playoffs to a team's top player.. they usually reserve those instigator calls for the 4th liners to diffuse dangerous situations.. Despite what the media types will say, that suspension was at the sole discretion of a mandatory Hockey Ops review as to whether Nurse was a true "instigator" in that altercation, according to their rules Hague was as much of an "instigator" as he was.

Cue Pietrangelo getting the maximum fine.

So for 40 mins Hague tries to instigate a fight but they give Nurse the instigator because he skated over to Hague to take the fight that Hague tried to start for 40 mins. Gotcha. NHL logic. You really can't beat it.

NHL will give Pietrangelo 1 game because they are gutless and don't have any interest in player safety. It's even to make it even for both teams even though 1 event is no where near the same as the other in severity.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:49]

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823209 is a reply to message #823207 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823210 is a reply to message #823209 ]
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RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

For clarity so I am better understand your point. When Stone says Hague was challenging Nurse to a fight, how would you classify that? That's emotion too, not facts?

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823211 is a reply to message #823204 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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It's a rule that was put in place because Dutter sent 5 goons over the boards one night late in a game where the Lames were getting blown out. This was not that. The DOPS needs to be able to understand that. They know they are suspending Pietrangelo, so they think it's "even up" to do it to Nurse, which is the same BS reasoning the refs use in game. A two-handed slash to the wrist is way worse than a questionable instigator. Just gives Knight licence to keep the cheap shots going.

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823212 is a reply to message #823116 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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.. to be clear.. I think it still was a dumb play by Nurse, a guy pulling top D minutes for his team, and vet that has an "A" on his sweater, to get into a fight with 40 secs left when your team has just secured a ton of momentum for the next game.. the risk didn't even register..

However, when the media boot-lickers, and DoPS say it was an "automatic" suspension.. it was not.. DoPS had a mandatory obligation to review the entire circumstances of the incident.. in accordance with their own rule 46.21.. so this was "their DECISION" .. it was not "out of their hands" and bound by the letter of the "rule book".

[Updated on: Thu, 11 May 2023 15:02]

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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #4) [message #823213 is a reply to message #823210 ]
Thu, 11 May 2023 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
CrusaderPi is currently online CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:54

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43


Pot stirrer PI's comment to this will be interesting I am sure.

It's not pot stirring. I intentionally try to be a cold and emotionless as possible when I try to figure out what someone else is going to do. I find if I let my feelings and hopes get in the way I get surprised by outcome. I really hate being surprised.

I get what Nurse is saying, but he's speaking with his emotion and has created the situation where's he both suspended and (maybe) surprised by the outcome.

I think PA might get 2.

For clarity so I am better understand your point. When Stone says Hague was challenging Nurse to a fight, how would you classify that? That's emotion too, not facts?

No, it's a fact, but it didn't start a fight. It's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Nurse should have his instigator penalty rescinded.

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