OilFans.com :: Fan Forum: Oilers => Duncan Keith to Oilers

Guest

Login / Register

This day on April 27
None

Happy Birthday To: chickenman23, handsmatter94, TashOiler88

OILERS INFO OILFANS
Saturday, Apr 27, 2024 10:41 PM MT

F.A.Q.

Terms of Use F.A.Q.

F.A.Q.

Members

Search

Register

Login

Home

Oilers » Duncan Keith to Oilers

Pages (9): [ « < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > »]

Switch to nested view

Switch to tree view

Create a new topic

Submit Reply

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789074 is a reply to message #789064 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 08:34

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1698
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Oscargasm wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 23:42

Goose wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 23:22

Rocksteady wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 16:02

The official deal:

Quote:

Pierre LeBrun
@PierreVLeBrun

Full Oilers-Hawks deal:
Duncan Keith and Tim Soderlund for Caleb Jones And 2022 3rd RD pick
The 2022 pick will become a 2nd RD pick if Edm wins 3 rounds in 2022 playoffs AND Keith is amongst the top 4 in Oilers D time on ice during the first three rounds of the 2022 Playoffs.

Still yikes.

Oh good, if McDavid somehow drags this team to win three rounds in the playoffs, the Oilers give up a higher pick. Perfect.

Pretty sure if this happens and the oilers are in the Cup final, people won’t be so butt hurt about this. But oh my gaaaaawd heaven forbid Holland does anything in this market lately.

Shore signs. WHY!?
Nuge signs. WHY THE TERM??
Keith trade. WHY!?

Let’s step back from the ledge people.

(This isn’t directed at Goose, just a general ‘people’)

I thought people were generally okay with the Nuge one. As always OG, I hope that I, and the other negative nellies, are wrong and Keith does great here. Just looks unlikely.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789075 is a reply to message #789070 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 08:58

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

ggibbs wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 07:47

Do you reallly think a long time NHL GM is blinded by the rings. Come on. This is a gamble yes. Any deal is. But this was a decision to improve this team now. I believe it does.

Yes, I think a long-time NHL GM can be blinded by a lot of things. Sports management is rife with incompetents. There's no set path, no training, and things can change dramatically over the course of a career.

Holland did well when he had no salary constraints and had an owner with extremely deep pockets who was willing to pay more than almost any other team. He also inherited a deep European scouting group who was focused there earlier and in more depth than most other teams, giving them a bit of an edge on who they picked (although they still had some incredible luck - they didn't project Datsyuk and Zetterberg to be as good).

The game changed in 2006 and Holland's been reeling since. They managed one more Cup on the backs of what they'd built before the lockout - but it's been in decline ever since. He's struggled to make good signings and trades for a lot of years.

As he basically laid out yesterday, he's not familiar with the numbers on the players he's acquiring. He, along with the other old dogs in the Oilers brass, eschews analytics, paying it no more than lip service. They got Duncan Keith because he used to be really good, and they're hoping that maybe, like Chris Chelios, he can be a player in to his 40s. That ignores that they had a deep capable defence around Chelios including one of the best defencemen of all-time. Chelios could be deeply shielded on that team. It was also a different era - anyone who remembers Chelios' last years in the NHL should remember that he was constantly fouling anyone: cross-checks, holds, slashes, interference. It always felt like he was given some freedom because he was really really old. He was a lot less effective after the lockout. His stats just plummet as does his usage.

Also - you can't really use a single example of a guy who played until he was 47, because let's face it - that ain't the norm. Keith's decline is more normal of a player in his late 30s. There's only two players older than him patrolling NHL bluelines - Chara & Greene - and we'll see if either of them find a home this summer. There's no guarantee there at all that both will be back.

The problem is, it doesn't seem like Holland's approached the Oilers job with much of a plan. He's kind of floated from point to point and it looks really scattered. They prioritized a goalie last year, but from all we can tell, they only really looked hard at one. Losing on that, they just accepted the status quo. They spent a bunch of assets at the 2020 deadline, then just let that all go. They decided to publicly say they didn't think last year was the year to push the chips in - they were saving their draft picks for later, and then as soon as the year is done, they traded two chips for an over-the-hill defenceman the second they heard he might be available. They seem to not understand leverage or deal-making at all - which puts them in a tough spot.

Sometimes you think Holland just is trying to repeat history - "what did I do before? Well, I had a Swedish defenceman...I better get one in the first round. And I traded for some old guys...that helped a lot in 2002...let's see who's on my rolodex and still playing..." And other GMs are just thrilled to help him out because they see him for the doddering old fool he's become.

We may as well have still had Chiarelli for that trade. It was as bad as any he did...although clearly, you were fans of those too...

I do blame the media for that. They spend so much time defending the franchise's bad moves in order to ensure access that they have helped to brainwash a large segment of the fanbase in to accepting anything, even as it moves us further and further away from ever winning another championship. I, for one, would prefer NOT to be a laughingstock for a while.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789077 is a reply to message #789072 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 09:23

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

What is kind of sad in the Keith trade for me is in my opinion, it all but signifies to me that the Klefbom must done with the NHL. Take the source for what it's worth but Gregor said yesterday he has been told Klefbom can't even lift his arm above his head yet. If that is the case, that isn't good.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789079 is a reply to message #789075 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Mike
Messages: 1067
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789080 is a reply to message #789079 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 09:50

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Pretty sure we got played doubly here with how the deal ties up the 2nd and 3rd round picks which messes up our next trade deadline. It's just so embarrassing.

Same GM that convinced Chia that Brandon Manning would help our team when Chicago was desperate to get Manning's terrible contract (and person) off their hands. They couldn't believe their fortunes. Here we are again helping them out.

I'm sure most GM's in the league had a good chuckle about the Oilers yesterday. Little less for other teams to worry about now regarding the team with McDavid and Drai, if they were worried at all.

[Updated on: Tue, 13 July 2021 10:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789086 is a reply to message #789079 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 10:12

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Hilariously, today Ryan Suter is getting bought out. We could have had the equivalent player for relatively cheap without giving up assets in a couple weeks. Guarantee he doesn't have a $5.53MM cap hit when he's re-signed.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789089 is a reply to message #789086 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 10:20

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 10:12

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Hilariously, today Ryan Suter is getting bought out. We could have had the equivalent player for relatively cheap without giving up assets in a couple weeks. Guarantee he doesn't have a $5.53MM cap hit when he's re-signed.

Does Ryan Suter have an ex-wife and kid in Penticton too?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789091 is a reply to message #789086 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 10:21

Mike
Messages: 1067
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:12

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Hilariously, today Ryan Suter is getting bought out. We could have had the equivalent player for relatively cheap without giving up assets in a couple weeks. Guarantee he doesn't have a $5.53MM cap hit when he's re-signed.

I mean really - what was Bowman going to do? If he couldn't get a deal done you have to think they were going to buy him out. Why did this need to be done at all? And if it did, why NOW? Insane.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789093 is a reply to message #789079 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 10:42

Skookum Jim
Messages: 3911
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

3 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 08:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Only way I can think they couldn't have leveraged some cap retention is Seattle might've made an offer that included complete salary retention.. only way .. in addition to wanting Keith's cap to go after S. Jones et al, Chicago needed to get rid of his NMC so they didn't have to protect him in the expansion draft, they would have had to lose a good player, might've had to go 4-4-1, and expose even better players.. Holland is no Lamoriello.

One benefit of Keith deal is the term, only 2 years, I expect most UFA d-men (not considering a Hamilton, or S. Jones caliber) are shopping for long term contracts, at max. market price.. at least we avoid that.. Holland is gambling that in two years Samorukov and/or Broberg are playing top 4 on ELC's. 🤞🏻

[Updated on: Tue, 13 July 2021 10:54]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789095 is a reply to message #789080 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:06

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:50

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Pretty sure we got played doubly here with how the deal ties up the 2nd and 3rd round picks which messes up our next trade deadline. It's just so embarrassing.

Same GM that convinced Chia that Brandon Manning would help our team when Chicago was desperate to get Manning's terrible contract (and person) off their hands. They couldn't believe their fortunes. Here we are again helping them out.

I'm sure most GM's in the league had a good chuckle about the Oilers yesterday. Little less for other teams to worry about now regarding the team with McDavid and Drai, if they were worried at all.

Yeah, it's just depressing. I mean, here's the timeline - provided to us because the Oilers are as leaky as they could possibly be, most likely in an effort to convince fans to not hate the move:

- At some point in the last few weeks, Duncan Keith tells Chicago he wants out and that he wants to be in Western Canada to be close to his kid. He's got a no-move clause, so there's not many options left to the team. Somehow the list ends up as Vancouver & Edmonton, or so it's rumoured, although it doesn't sound like any of the discussions with Vancouver (or potentially Calgary) have been leaked. Whether that means that those teams just aren't as likely to run to every media guy they know with an update on their talks, or whether those talks never really got serious, we won't know. I suspect that Bowman was telling the Oilers that they were very serious.
- Bowman asks for Bear and/or McLeod, according to Friedman, while saying they won't keep salary. The wheels start turning for the Oilers. According to Mark Spector, rather than hanging up, we immediately countered back with Jones, a 3rd or 4th and Koskinen - which is similar to salary retention in that we'd be getting rid of a problem contract and freeing up money. That deal still would have been an overpay based on Chicago's situation...they just didn't have many options, and getting outbid by the Canucks at that point isn't a problem for us...it would have been an unforced error by Benning.
- Rather than negotiating in earnest at this point, the Oilers begin a PR campaign with the Edmonton media. There are so many problems with this. If you have confidence that you're doing the right thing, why do you need to try to sell it to your fans? Just do what you need to do and let the results speak for themselves. The Oilers don't have that confidence though, so immediately when they think they may be making a mistake, they start going into sell mode.
- At this point, Bowman has to know the Oilers are in his pocket. The charm offensive, the upsell of Keith from virtually every Edmonton-based media guy, the leaks about what their first offer was...it signals to the 'Hawks that Holland really wants to make this move, and that he's lacking confidence in his actions. He and the Oilers are more focused on positioning the fanbase than they are the rival GM, so really, he just holds his position. The Oilers have basically flipped up their cards now, and they're just ripe for the taking.
- He pushes them on timing, saying he needs the deal done before Friday's firming of the protected list, and no doubt sells to Holland that he's going to lose out because Vancouver is totally going to do this deal if he doesn't. Maybe he even gives him the little shoutouts about how Bowman's old man has talked about how important Chelios was to those Detroit teams back then, and that he's always said how thankful ol' Scotty was that Holland had the guts to make that move then. Share a little side joke about how stupid analytics is (as his analytics team snickers nearby), throws in a minor leaguer for who knows what reasons, and then what do you know, Holland collapses like a cheap tent.
- Holland then calls Friedman and gives him the scoop on the deal, as a thank you for putting out the initial ask from Chicago. The Edmonton media guys probably aren't thrilled with this call...they have done yeoman work carrying the water for this for a full week, and they get left in the cold. They start grumbling a little about the deal with some extremely light criticism but Holland starts calling in favours yesterday afternoon and you start seeing them change their tunes and start to toe the line again. Matheson has gone from saying it's a full-on win yesterday, to today going on a full-throated defence and bickering with fans on twitter. Stauffer was quiet for a long time after the deal, as the Oilers crafted for him the message he was supposed to say.
- Holland's press availability was a gong show. He had mostly softball questions from a very sympathetic group of reporters and still fumbled all over. Only Daniel Nugent-Bowman really challenged him at all, and he just got grouchy and snarky in response to that. His answers were terrible. He couldn't point to any numbers reason to get Duncan Keith. Just that he was old, and once he got an old guy and they won a Cup a couple years later. If you were looking for a reason to feel more confident in the guy making the decisions, you didn't see it yesterday. You saw a bumbling old man who'd been taken to the woodshed on a deal by a rival, and thinks it's mean of anyone to point that out to him.

I'm losing hope that the Oilers are ever going to win in the McDavid era, and I'm starting to regret making my kids in to Oilers fans.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789096 is a reply to message #789091 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:08

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 10:21

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:12

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Hilariously, today Ryan Suter is getting bought out. We could have had the equivalent player for relatively cheap without giving up assets in a couple weeks. Guarantee he doesn't have a $5.53MM cap hit when he's re-signed.

I mean really - what was Bowman going to do? If he couldn't get a deal done you have to think they were going to buy him out. Why did this need to be done at all? And if it did, why NOW? Insane.

Chicago pushed the timeline. They needed him moved ahead of the expansion protected list deadline. Holland went along because Chicago told him he had to move fast, and that if he didn't he'd miss out.

Chicago couldn't have even bought him out. The buyout is almost as bad as the full cap hit. They either kept him an extra year, or they paid him not to play, or they found a rube to take him on. Bowman opted for route #3...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789097 is a reply to message #789093 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:10

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 10:42

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 08:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Only way I can think they couldn't have leveraged some cap retention is Seattle might've made an offer that included complete salary retention.. only way .. in addition to wanting Keith's cap to go after S. Jones et al, Chicago needed to get rid of his NMC so they didn't have to protect him in the expansion draft, they would have had to lose a good player, might've had to go 4-4-1, and expose even better players.. Holland is no Lamoriello.

One benefit of Keith deal is the term, only 2 years, I expect most UFA d-men (not considering a Hamilton, or S. Jones caliber) are shopping for long term contracts, at max. market price.. at least we avoid that.. Holland is gambling that in two years Samorukov and/or Broberg are playing top 4 on ELC's. 🤞🏻

This doesn't make sense. If Seattle was on the list of places Keith was willing to go, then he'd have just agreed to waive his NMC and hope he gets picked. He was clearly using his NMC to force a trade elsewhere though, so from that you can assume he wanted no part of the expansion team and had other targets in mind only.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789099 is a reply to message #788934 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:24

Skookum Jim
Messages: 3911
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

3 Cups

This guy would have got some retention.. maybe even a 2nd round pick and all of Chicago's air miles!!

data:image/jpeg;base64,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

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789100 is a reply to message #789099 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I think Lou has dirt on every person in the NHL.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789101 is a reply to message #788934 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:28

Skookum Jim
Messages: 3911
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

3 Cups

Barrie or Larsson?[ 24 vote(s) ]

1. Larsson 12 / 50%
2. Barrie 12 / 50%

So what if the option were Larsson or Barrie on RD for similar contracts.. who would you take?

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789107 is a reply to message #789095 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:37

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 11:06

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:50

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Pretty sure we got played doubly here with how the deal ties up the 2nd and 3rd round picks which messes up our next trade deadline. It's just so embarrassing.

Same GM that convinced Chia that Brandon Manning would help our team when Chicago was desperate to get Manning's terrible contract (and person) off their hands. They couldn't believe their fortunes. Here we are again helping them out.

I'm sure most GM's in the league had a good chuckle about the Oilers yesterday. Little less for other teams to worry about now regarding the team with McDavid and Drai, if they were worried at all.

Yeah, it's just depressing. I mean, here's the timeline - provided to us because the Oilers are as leaky as they could possibly be, most likely in an effort to convince fans to not hate the move:

- At some point in the last few weeks, Duncan Keith tells Chicago he wants out and that he wants to be in Western Canada to be close to his kid. He's got a no-move clause, so there's not many options left to the team. Somehow the list ends up as Vancouver & Edmonton, or so it's rumoured, although it doesn't sound like any of the discussions with Vancouver (or potentially Calgary) have been leaked. Whether that means that those teams just aren't as likely to run to every media guy they know with an update on their talks, or whether those talks never really got serious, we won't know. I suspect that Bowman was telling the Oilers that they were very serious.
- Bowman asks for Bear and/or McLeod, according to Friedman, while saying they won't keep salary. The wheels start turning for the Oilers. According to Mark Spector, rather than hanging up, we immediately countered back with Jones, a 3rd or 4th and Koskinen - which is similar to salary retention in that we'd be getting rid of a problem contract and freeing up money. That deal still would have been an overpay based on Chicago's situation...they just didn't have many options, and getting outbid by the Canucks at that point isn't a problem for us...it would have been an unforced error by Benning.
- Rather than negotiating in earnest at this point, the Oilers begin a PR campaign with the Edmonton media. There are so many problems with this. If you have confidence that you're doing the right thing, why do you need to try to sell it to your fans? Just do what you need to do and let the results speak for themselves. The Oilers don't have that confidence though, so immediately when they think they may be making a mistake, they start going into sell mode.
- At this point, Bowman has to know the Oilers are in his pocket. The charm offensive, the upsell of Keith from virtually every Edmonton-based media guy, the leaks about what their first offer was...it signals to the 'Hawks that Holland really wants to make this move, and that he's lacking confidence in his actions. He and the Oilers are more focused on positioning the fanbase than they are the rival GM, so really, he just holds his position. The Oilers have basically flipped up their cards now, and they're just ripe for the taking.
- He pushes them on timing, saying he needs the deal done before Friday's firming of the protected list, and no doubt sells to Holland that he's going to lose out because Vancouver is totally going to do this deal if he doesn't. Maybe he even gives him the little shoutouts about how Bowman's old man has talked about how important Chelios was to those Detroit teams back then, and that he's always said how thankful ol' Scotty was that Holland had the guts to make that move then. Share a little side joke about how stupid analytics is (as his analytics team snickers nearby), throws in a minor leaguer for who knows what reasons, and then what do you know, Holland collapses like a cheap tent.
- Holland then calls Friedman and gives him the scoop on the deal, as a thank you for putting out the initial ask from Chicago. The Edmonton media guys probably aren't thrilled with this call...they have done yeoman work carrying the water for this for a full week, and they get left in the cold. They start grumbling a little about the deal with some extremely light criticism but Holland starts calling in favours yesterday afternoon and you start seeing them change their tunes and start to toe the line again. Matheson has gone from saying it's a full-on win yesterday, to today going on a full-throated defence and bickering with fans on twitter. Stauffer was quiet for a long time after the deal, as the Oilers crafted for him the message he was supposed to say.
- Holland's press availability was a gong show. He had mostly softball questions from a very sympathetic group of reporters and still fumbled all over. Only Daniel Nugent-Bowman really challenged him at all, and he just got grouchy and snarky in response to that. His answers were terrible. He couldn't point to any numbers reason to get Duncan Keith. Just that he was old, and once he got an old guy and they won a Cup a couple years later. If you were looking for a reason to feel more confident in the guy making the decisions, you didn't see it yesterday. You saw a bumbling old man who'd been taken to the woodshed on a deal by a rival, and thinks it's mean of anyone to point that out to him.

I'm losing hope that the Oilers are ever going to win in the McDavid era, and I'm starting to regret making my kids in to Oilers fans.

I can't see a better option than the Oilers. Even if they lose, it's a wonderful case study for life lessons for kids, isn't it? Every year you can teach your kids so much about how to not run a business and not let stupid old-school biased thinking and misplaced loyalties cloud your judgement and let you keep digging deeper holes. How you can be gifted something amazing but if you take it for granted you will just end up wasting it. They're at least good for that. And maybe they will be lucky, and as they get into their 20's and 30's maybe they can actually witness an evolution in the teams approach that leads to winning, and they will have understood exactly what happened.

[Updated on: Tue, 13 July 2021 11:39]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789111 is a reply to message #789107 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 11:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 11:37

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 11:06

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:50

Mike wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 09:41

Again - why are we helping out another Western conference team who will be fighting for a playoff spot with us?

Keith was going to force the Hawks hand. They had absolutely 0 leverage here. They would have been forced to either protect him and try to work out a trade after the expansion draft, or buy him out. But instead not only do we let them off the hook, we toss them a couple of assets to boot, and now WE have to protect him. And we piss away about 30% of the much bandied about cap space we were going to have this offseason to address a top 6 winger, 3C and a goalie...I don't know how that gets done now.

Pretty sure we got played doubly here with how the deal ties up the 2nd and 3rd round picks which messes up our next trade deadline. It's just so embarrassing.

Same GM that convinced Chia that Brandon Manning would help our team when Chicago was desperate to get Manning's terrible contract (and person) off their hands. They couldn't believe their fortunes. Here we are again helping them out.

I'm sure most GM's in the league had a good chuckle about the Oilers yesterday. Little less for other teams to worry about now regarding the team with McDavid and Drai, if they were worried at all.

Yeah, it's just depressing. I mean, here's the timeline - provided to us because the Oilers are as leaky as they could possibly be, most likely in an effort to convince fans to not hate the move:

- At some point in the last few weeks, Duncan Keith tells Chicago he wants out and that he wants to be in Western Canada to be close to his kid. He's got a no-move clause, so there's not many options left to the team. Somehow the list ends up as Vancouver & Edmonton, or so it's rumoured, although it doesn't sound like any of the discussions with Vancouver (or potentially Calgary) have been leaked. Whether that means that those teams just aren't as likely to run to every media guy they know with an update on their talks, or whether those talks never really got serious, we won't know. I suspect that Bowman was telling the Oilers that they were very serious.
- Bowman asks for Bear and/or McLeod, according to Friedman, while saying they won't keep salary. The wheels start turning for the Oilers. According to Mark Spector, rather than hanging up, we immediately countered back with Jones, a 3rd or 4th and Koskinen - which is similar to salary retention in that we'd be getting rid of a problem contract and freeing up money. That deal still would have been an overpay based on Chicago's situation...they just didn't have many options, and getting outbid by the Canucks at that point isn't a problem for us...it would have been an unforced error by Benning.
- Rather than negotiating in earnest at this point, the Oilers begin a PR campaign with the Edmonton media. There are so many problems with this. If you have confidence that you're doing the right thing, why do you need to try to sell it to your fans? Just do what you need to do and let the results speak for themselves. The Oilers don't have that confidence though, so immediately when they think they may be making a mistake, they start going into sell mode.
- At this point, Bowman has to know the Oilers are in his pocket. The charm offensive, the upsell of Keith from virtually every Edmonton-based media guy, the leaks about what their first offer was...it signals to the 'Hawks that Holland really wants to make this move, and that he's lacking confidence in his actions. He and the Oilers are more focused on positioning the fanbase than they are the rival GM, so really, he just holds his position. The Oilers have basically flipped up their cards now, and they're just ripe for the taking.
- He pushes them on timing, saying he needs the deal done before Friday's firming of the protected list, and no doubt sells to Holland that he's going to lose out because Vancouver is totally going to do this deal if he doesn't. Maybe he even gives him the little shoutouts about how Bowman's old man has talked about how important Chelios was to those Detroit teams back then, and that he's always said how thankful ol' Scotty was that Holland had the guts to make that move then. Share a little side joke about how stupid analytics is (as his analytics team snickers nearby), throws in a minor leaguer for who knows what reasons, and then what do you know, Holland collapses like a cheap tent.
- Holland then calls Friedman and gives him the scoop on the deal, as a thank you for putting out the initial ask from Chicago. The Edmonton media guys probably aren't thrilled with this call...they have done yeoman work carrying the water for this for a full week, and they get left in the cold. They start grumbling a little about the deal with some extremely light criticism but Holland starts calling in favours yesterday afternoon and you start seeing them change their tunes and start to toe the line again. Matheson has gone from saying it's a full-on win yesterday, to today going on a full-throated defence and bickering with fans on twitter. Stauffer was quiet for a long time after the deal, as the Oilers crafted for him the message he was supposed to say.
- Holland's press availability was a gong show. He had mostly softball questions from a very sympathetic group of reporters and still fumbled all over. Only Daniel Nugent-Bowman really challenged him at all, and he just got grouchy and snarky in response to that. His answers were terrible. He couldn't point to any numbers reason to get Duncan Keith. Just that he was old, and once he got an old guy and they won a Cup a couple years later. If you were looking for a reason to feel more confident in the guy making the decisions, you didn't see it yesterday. You saw a bumbling old man who'd been taken to the woodshed on a deal by a rival, and thinks it's mean of anyone to point that out to him.

I'm losing hope that the Oilers are ever going to win in the McDavid era, and I'm starting to regret making my kids in to Oilers fans.

I can't see a better option than the Oilers. Even if they lose, it's a wonderful case study for life lessons for kids, isn't it? Every year you can teach your kids so much about how to not run a business and not let stupid old-school biased thinking and misplaced loyalties cloud your judgement and let you keep digging deeper holes. How you can be gifted something amazing but if you take it for granted you will just end up wasting it. They're at least good for that.

It's like Aesop's fables have been adapted for modern life.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789115 is a reply to message #789101 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 12:18

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 710
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Holland, "If Chicago were asked to retain salary, the asking price for Keith would have been significantly higher"

meaning... he didn't even ask?!?!?!?1 What the hell?

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789116 is a reply to message #789115 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 12:21

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:18

Holland, "If Chicago were asked to retain salary, the asking price for Keith would have been significantly higher"

meaning... he didn't even ask?!?!?!?1 What the hell?

And he only says Chicago retaining 50% would have costed more. Hmmm, how about 750k like Holland retained for Lucic? Bowman has retained small amounts of salary in many deals. He retained 750k of Olli Maatta's deal moving him to the Kings. Retained 1M of Saad's deal. Retained 1.125M of Janmark.

But Holland tried to reduce DNB's question about retention to either Chicago retains nothing, or we pay the cost for them to retain 50%.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789117 is a reply to message #789116 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 12:22

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 710
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I'm surprised he didn't retain part of Jones' salary.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789118 is a reply to message #789116 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 12:34

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:21

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:18

Holland, "If Chicago were asked to retain salary, the asking price for Keith would have been significantly higher"

meaning... he didn't even ask?!?!?!?1 What the hell?

And he only says Chicago retaining 50% would have costed more. Hmmm, how about 750k like Holland retained for Lucic? Bowman has retained small amounts of salary in many deals. He retained 750k of Olli Maatta's deal moving him to the Kings. Retained 1M of Saad's deal. Retained 1.125M of Janmark.

But Holland tried to reduce DNB's question about retention to either Chicago retains nothing, or we pay the cost for them to retain 50%.

Not to mention there are other creative solutions. You could wash the deal through a third party in order to have another team pay some of the cap hit. It would likely be easier with Keith than with most for a Floor team, because the actual dollars would be low. That third would have been better used to do that. If you could get even 25% retained by Chicago, then wash it through, say, Arizona, and have them take 50% then you're looking at 37.5% of his cap hit, or just under $2.1MM. It's still too much, but at least it would be better.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789119 is a reply to message #789118 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 12:40

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:34

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:21

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 12:18

Holland, "If Chicago were asked to retain salary, the asking price for Keith would have been significantly higher"

meaning... he didn't even ask?!?!?!?1 What the hell?

And he only says Chicago retaining 50% would have costed more. Hmmm, how about 750k like Holland retained for Lucic? Bowman has retained small amounts of salary in many deals. He retained 750k of Olli Maatta's deal moving him to the Kings. Retained 1M of Saad's deal. Retained 1.125M of Janmark.

But Holland tried to reduce DNB's question about retention to either Chicago retains nothing, or we pay the cost for them to retain 50%.

Not to mention there are other creative solutions. You could wash the deal through a third party in order to have another team pay some of the cap hit. It would likely be easier with Keith than with most for a Floor team, because the actual dollars would be low. That third would have been better used to do that. If you could get even 25% retained by Chicago, then wash it through, say, Arizona, and have them take 50% then you're looking at 37.5% of his cap hit, or just under $2.1MM. It's still too much, but at least it would be better.

Never in a million years would Holland consider any of that. Which is of course a great example of the problem here.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789123 is a reply to message #789052 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:11

inverno76
Messages: 2122
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 20:47

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 20:43

Oscargasm wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 20:42

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 20:33

Our 2nd and 3rd next year being tied up with conditions really messes with our ability to get a rental player next deadline. Another silver lining of this trade.

Pfft, still got that 1st available 😏

Hehe, yeah, that's it. We'll have to get over the "I've been there, I once traded for Chelios and we didn't win" threshold to get a real rental again. Team better be looking freakin amazing at the deadline or it'll just be another Kulikov.

1st for Ryan Getzlaf at the deadline ... you know your spine just tingled at the thought of it.

Does anyone actually believe that we will achieve the 3 rounds of post season play to unlock the 2nd round pick? It is safe.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789124 is a reply to message #789054 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:13

inverno76
Messages: 2122
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 21:11

Actual silver lining:

PuckPedia @PuckPedia

If Keith were to retire after the 21-22 season:
-#BlackHawks would have a $5.5M cap hit in 22-23 & a $2M cap hit 23-24
-#LetsGoOilers would lose his $5.5M actual cap hit in 22-23 & instead have a $3.4M negative cap hit (cap savings), for a swing of $8.9M

Keith retiring after this season would screw the Hawks pretty bad, and give us a cap benefit.

I wonder if shares in EIG could influence Keith to a early retirement?

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789125 is a reply to message #789124 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:17

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:13

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 21:11

Actual silver lining:

PuckPedia @PuckPedia

If Keith were to retire after the 21-22 season:
-#BlackHawks would have a $5.5M cap hit in 22-23 & a $2M cap hit 23-24
-#LetsGoOilers would lose his $5.5M actual cap hit in 22-23 & instead have a $3.4M negative cap hit (cap savings), for a swing of $8.9M

Keith retiring after this season would screw the Hawks pretty bad, and give us a cap benefit.

I wonder if shares in EIG could influence Keith to a early retirement?

When the Oilers win the cup this coming season, he will retire on a high. icon_biggrin

icon_biggrin

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789126 is a reply to message #789101 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:18

inverno76
Messages: 2122
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 11:28

So what if the option were Larsson or Barrie on RD for similar contracts.. who would you take?

Tough call. I went Larsson only because Barrie holds Bouchard back, who I think can achieve similar numbers to Barrie if given the opportunity. Larsson also adds some physicality, but I still do not trust his wonky back.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789127 is a reply to message #789119 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:20

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Quote:

Stephan Roget
@StephanRoget

Connor McDavid is gonna ask Duncan Keith what the secret is to winning the Stanley Cup, and Keith is gonna tell him it's efficient cap management, and McDavid is gonna cry.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789128 is a reply to message #789127 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:22

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:20

Quote:

Stephan Roget
@StephanRoget

Connor McDavid is gonna ask Duncan Keith what the secret is to winning the Stanley Cup, and Keith is gonna tell him it's efficient cap management, and McDavid is gonna cry.

I laughed. Then cried. That tweet told a better story than a 10 episode netflix show.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789129 is a reply to message #789127 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:30

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:20

Quote:

Stephan Roget
@StephanRoget

Connor McDavid is gonna ask Duncan Keith what the secret is to winning the Stanley Cup, and Keith is gonna tell him it's efficient cap management, and McDavid is gonna cry.

I wish someone would tell McDavid this. But, McDavid seems like to just go along being hopeful things will work out. I'm sure he's genuinely excited to have Keith on his team, and hopes it'll all work out. Same with Keith. Sure his confidence has him completely sure today he's going to be a dominant 2nd pair D for us.

What actually happens? That was Holland's job to predict.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789130 is a reply to message #789129 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:36

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:30

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:20

Quote:

Stephan Roget
@StephanRoget

Connor McDavid is gonna ask Duncan Keith what the secret is to winning the Stanley Cup, and Keith is gonna tell him it's efficient cap management, and McDavid is gonna cry.

I wish someone would tell McDavid this. But, McDavid seems like to just go along being hopeful things will work out. I'm sure he's genuinely excited to have Keith on his team, and hopes it'll all work out. Same with Keith. Sure his confidence has him completely sure today he's going to be a dominant 2nd pair D for us.

What actually happens? That was Holland's job to predict.

I'd think that was true, but McDavid went against the Oilers and their medical advice to fix his knee because he wasn't simply willing to go along with being hopeful. If he, his agent, and the people in this trust haven't taken a sober look at Oilers management... they will.

That being said, a McDavid trade would open up A LOT of Cap Space.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789131 is a reply to message #789130 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:43

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:36

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:30

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:20

Quote:

Stephan Roget
@StephanRoget

Connor McDavid is gonna ask Duncan Keith what the secret is to winning the Stanley Cup, and Keith is gonna tell him it's efficient cap management, and McDavid is gonna cry.

I wish someone would tell McDavid this. But, McDavid seems like to just go along being hopeful things will work out. I'm sure he's genuinely excited to have Keith on his team, and hopes it'll all work out. Same with Keith. Sure his confidence has him completely sure today he's going to be a dominant 2nd pair D for us.

What actually happens? That was Holland's job to predict.

I'd think that was true, but McDavid went against the Oilers and their medical advice to fix his knee because he wasn't simply willing to go along with being hopeful. If he, his agent, and the people in this trust haven't taken a sober look at Oilers management... they will.

That being said, a McDavid trade would open up A LOT of Cap Space.

McDavid was probably a fan of the Lucic move too at the time. I don't trust players to run teams in their 40s and 50s, so I sure as heck wouldn't be trusting them to run them in their 20s.

Besides, what can those guys do? Come out and pan the deal? They just can't. That guy is their new teammate. They have to say the right things and make the guy feel welcome.

For what it's worth, I don't hold this against Duncan Keith at all. I wish the guy well, and I hope he has a major bounceback here. It's just not a good bet, and the Oilers pushed in a ton of chips on a bet that is a long-shot but also pays only mediocre return in the best case scenario.

I actually love the conditional pick part from Chicago. That so feels like the icing on the cake. "You know, Kenny, we think this is really giving you the missing ingredient to go from first round sweep to Stanley Cup contender. We're basically gifting you the Stanley Cup, so really, you should upgrade that pick for when Duncan leads you to the promised land." It hearkens back to the extra pick in the Pronger deal, and Lowe telling Burke that he's basically giving him a Cup with that trade.

Maybe the Oilers truly feel that the 'Hawks WERE doing us a solid here...SIGH.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789132 is a reply to message #789054 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 13:55

NetBOG
Messages: 2860
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 21:11

Actual silver lining:

PuckPedia @PuckPedia

If Keith were to retire after the 21-22 season:
-#BlackHawks would have a $5.5M cap hit in 22-23 & a $2M cap hit 23-24
-#LetsGoOilers would lose his $5.5M actual cap hit in 22-23 & instead have a $3.4M negative cap hit (cap savings), for a swing of $8.9M

Keith retiring after this season would screw the Hawks pretty bad, and give us a cap benefit.

Maybe Holland is playing 4D chess here. A year of Keith to teach everyone winning, then massive cap savings next summer. And they screw the Hawks.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789133 is a reply to message #789126 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 14:01

travgwhite
Messages: 47
Registered: November 2009
Location: toronto

No Cups

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789134 is a reply to message #789054 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 14:02

mightyreasoner
Messages: 508
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 12 July 2021 21:11

Actual silver lining:

PuckPedia @PuckPedia

If Keith were to retire after the 21-22 season:
-#BlackHawks would have a $5.5M cap hit in 22-23 & a $2M cap hit 23-24
-#LetsGoOilers would lose his $5.5M actual cap hit in 22-23 & instead have a $3.4M negative cap hit (cap savings), for a swing of $8.9M

Keith retiring after this season would screw the Hawks pretty bad, and give us a cap benefit.

I mean, that would be great, but there's no chance of that happening. I think it was Spector (possibly Shannon) who was already lining up the extension at the end of this contract, talking about how by hiring a new agent Keith was signalling his intention to sign another deal after this one expires.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789136 is a reply to message #789133 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:07

nullterm
Messages: 927
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

No Cups

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789137 is a reply to message #789136 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:23

smyth260
Messages: 947
Registered: November 2007

No Cups

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 14:07

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

I’ll cry if a 38 year old predictably declines to an AHL caliber player and fills no holes.

Clean house or bust

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789138 is a reply to message #789137 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:31

nullterm
Messages: 927
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

No Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 14:23

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 14:07

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

I’ll cry if a 38 year old predictably declines to an AHL caliber player and fills no holes.

Do you watch the Oilers to be happy or sad?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789139 is a reply to message #789138 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 15:31

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 14:23

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 14:07

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

I’ll cry if a 38 year old predictably declines to an AHL caliber player and fills no holes.

Do you watch the Oilers to be happy or sad?

Do people pay money to watch the Oilers to be happy or sad?

How's that totally always real season ticket wait list going?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789140 is a reply to message #789136 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:44

travgwhite
Messages: 47
Registered: November 2009
Location: toronto

No Cups

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 15:07

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

Prob would have lost Jones to expansion draft anyway.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Duncan Keith to Oilers [message #789142 is a reply to message #789140 ]	Tue, 13 July 2021 15:50

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7641
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 15:44

nullterm wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 15:07

travgwhite wrote on Tue, 13 July 2021 13:01

Isn't this basically a Klefbom replacement who will go on LTIR? Along with Jones money going out the cap is almost a wash? So basically Keith for a 3rd. Or am I missing something?

Pretty much.

I was against it, but now that it's done, I'm not gonna cry over moving a 6/7 dman to fill a hole in our top four. It's done, time to move on.

Prob would have lost Jones to expansion draft anyway.

Now the Oilers lost Jones, someone else to Seattle, a draft pick, the ability to move a different draft pick, Cap Space, and have subtraction by addition in the line up.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Pages (9): [ « < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > »]

Previous Topic:	Review: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #7)
Next Topic:	GDT: Edmonton @ Vancouver (Game #7)

Copyright © OilFans.com 1996-2022.
All content is property of OilFans.com and cannot be used without expressed, written consent from this site.
Questions, comments and suggestions can be directed to oilfans@OilFans.com
Privacy Statement

Hosted by LogicalHosting.ca