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Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787471]	Wed, 09 June 2021 17:27

MJ
Messages: 244
Registered: November 1997
Location: Victoria

No Cups

The Oilers announced today they have signed forward Devin Shore to a two-year contract extension with an average annual value of $850,000.

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/release-oilers-sign-shore-to -two-year-extension/c-325275146

Today is now a big news day.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787472 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 17:29

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

MJ wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:27

Was sure he would get 875k. Great job by Holland to get us a discount!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787473 is a reply to message #787472 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 17:54

clutchlikeeberle
Messages: 251
Registered: April 2012

No Cups

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787475 is a reply to message #787473 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

smyth260
Messages: 948
Registered: November 2007

No Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787476 is a reply to message #787475 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:11

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Cost of the discount he gave us. Guy could have easily got 875k on the open market.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787478 is a reply to message #787475 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

NetBOG
Messages: 2862
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787479 is a reply to message #787478 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787480 is a reply to message #787476 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:25

Skookum Jim
Messages: 3912
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:11

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Cost of the discount he gave us. Guy could have easily got 875k on the open market.

They can use that extra $25K they saved so Holland or Tepid can go on a referee rant sometime next year when McDavid is getting manhandled.. 👍🏻

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787481 is a reply to message #787480 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:31

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1698
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:25

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:11

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Cost of the discount he gave us. Guy could have easily got 875k on the open market.

They can use that extra $25K they saved so Holland or Tepid can go on a referee rant sometime next year when McDavid is getting manhandled.. 👍🏻

That would be a funny line to see on a financial statement.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787483 is a reply to message #787481 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 18:55

Skookum Jim
Messages: 3912
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

3 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:31

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:25

They can use that extra $25K they saved so Holland or Tepid can go on a referee rant sometime next year when McDavid is getting manhandled.. 👍🏻

That would be a funny line to see on a financial statement.

Hey man, you have to budget for these things!

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787486 is a reply to message #787479 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 19:59

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7642
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

I think I still enjoy being an Oilers fan because everything from the past 20 years is a funny inside joke we can trade around like hockey cards. Thanks for this one kr. In return you will now remember Dallas Eakins getting squirted with water by Taylor Hall.

I’m fine with this contract shoring up forward depth. He looked good last season and isn’t being paid much.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787487 is a reply to message #787486 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 20:10

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 19:59

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

I’m just relieved we finally got this guy back under a contract. It is such a relief to know we got the guy who scored half his goals on an empty net back for next year AND the year after.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787492 is a reply to message #787487 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 21:19

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1698
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Adam wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 20:10

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 19:59

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

I’m just relieved we finally got this guy back under a contract. It is such a relief to know we got the guy who scored half his goals on an empty net back for next year AND the year after.

His nickname is now "The Finisher"

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787493 is a reply to message #787492 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 21:31

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 21:19

Adam wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 20:10

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 19:59

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

I’m just relieved we finally got this guy back under a contract. It is such a relief to know we got the guy who scored half his goals on an empty net back for next year AND the year after.

His nickname is now "The Finisher"

Some just amazing stats being shared on twitter tonight about Shore and his effectiveness. What does it say about Oilers management that this was their first priority?

Will it be a full 'nother week before we get the long-awaited Mike Smith extension?

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787494 is a reply to message #787486 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 21:48

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 19:59

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:16

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:14

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 18:10

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 16:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I'm not sure why this had to be 2 years. There, I found a complaint.

Worst case, they can bury the entire salary in the minors. Second year helps the team more than the player.

We should do that. But the last time we wanted to dump a useless player in the summer on a contract we could bury for 100% savings, we bought him out.

Classic!

https://media.giphy.com/media/jHZHjZ8vJvkhq/giphy.gif

Also there is almost always a gif that takes 2 seconds to find that some Oilers fan made for memorable Oilers moments like that :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787496 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 23:00

smyth260
Messages: 948
Registered: November 2007

No Cups

Gosh, the more I think about this, the more this move upsets me. Not in how damaging it is, but what it forecasts. I feel like I care more about upgrading my fantasy team than Ken Holland cares about upgrading his real NHL team.

He's just checking boxes. Bring back character guys he's comfortable with. He couldn't possibly fathom looking at perhaps better options in the long offseason? This just couldn't wait. We have trash depth, why are we bringing back part of the problem for 2 more years! This is just a really lazy signing, and it's all part of a pattern of other lazy moves.

For only being here 2 years, he's done quite a bit of damage.

- Re-signed Kassian to a deal too long AND too rich after playing half a season with the best player on the planet. Box checked.
- Re-signed Kris Russel a whole year ahead of his contract expiry. Character guy, kills penalties. Box checked.
- Assembled some of the worst bottom six scoring in the league. Chiasson, Haas, Nygard, Shore, Kahun, Ennis, Turris were his contracts.
- Traded away two 2nd rounders for Athanasiou.
- Bought out Sekera a year too early. Still got 2 more years of that dead cap.

And then upcoming broadcasted moves:
- Re-sign a 40 year old Mike Smith. How could this bet go badly? Character guy. Box checked.
- Re-sign Adam Larsson for 4 years, who could very well be the 3rd best RHD next year on the Oilers. Character guy. Kills penalties. Box checked.

This is the most important offseason in my years as an Oilers fan. It's make or break time, this team needs to go on a run yesterday.

But if this is how the offseason is gonna go, I'm predicting that we blow McDavid's time here. For a manager who gets paid 5 million dollars a year, I am stunned how lazy he is. He does not seem interested in to upgrading spots. Bring back the character guys that he's comfortable with. Forget assembling the best team. He already won in Detroit. He's done it.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787497 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 23:34

inverno76
Messages: 2122
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Meh. Nothing much to see here. Definitely not worth griping about. Bottom 6 needs to be changed up, but no one expected 6 new faces did they?

Identify the players you want to keep and then fill in the holes.

Some people would be choked if we signed Nuge and Larsson before the expansion draft and many of the same would be angry if we let them free agency. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

15 years of mismanagement has caused GM PTSD. It will take a decade of solid deals to get over everything since the summer of 2006.

[Updated on: Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22]

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787498 is a reply to message #787496 ]	Wed, 09 June 2021 23:40

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1698
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 23:00

In Ken's defence, I would also collect $5 million a year for doing little to nothing if someone offered it.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787499 is a reply to message #787498 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 01:57

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 23:40

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 23:00

In Ken's defence, I would also collect $5 million a year for doing little to nothing if someone offered it.

Best retirement gift ever! He was all set to just move to Fiji or something and suddenly Bob Nicholson shows up at his house with the Brinks Truck backed up to the garage. And really, the bar has been set so low here that with a little concerted effort in managing fans expectation, maybe the city will praise him to the sky if they win a playoff round or two in a couple years time.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787500 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 03:49

mightyreasoner
Messages: 508
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Amazing value for a Top-6 winger for those clutch games!

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787501 is a reply to message #787473 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 07:02

Hibernia
Messages: 50
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's

No Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 21:24

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

I can come up with a whole whack of reasons to complain about this...

1) Shore was one of the worst forwards in the NHL last season on a GF/GA basis at 5-on-5 on a team that needs to improve it's 5-on-5 numbers.

1a) I only use that stat to show that Ken Holland has no idea what he's doing as he singled out GF/GA as his favourite analytical stat when asked about analytics last week.

2) Essentially, he's a replacement level player who was just signed for two years.

3) This is a player who Tippett himself wouldn't play in the first two games of the playoffs Yet, somehow was one of the trusted few when Tippett shortened his bench two games later. confused2

3b) If Shore himself thought he was as good as Tippett and Holland does he wouldn't have signed a two year deal. He would be banking on himself to put up a better season and sign for more money.

Another dumb move by an organization that hasn't made consecutive good ones since 2006. deadhorse

*Edit* If it's the only signing by October, than there is a whole lot more to complain about than this. This a molehill compared to the mountain of complaint that would (justifiably) generate.

[Updated on: Thu, 10 June 2021 07:10]

Twitter: @AitchOil

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787502 is a reply to message #787473 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 08:22

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

Some Oilers fans will always complain about anything you can imagine. Pick any free agent you want, the most dream free agent a person can think of, give him a contract that has way lower money and term than anyone imagined was possible and there will be Oilers fans who will find a to pick him and the signing apart. They will find some spreadsheet or website that says in a particular situation he can't do this or that or find the one year he had an off year and project it as it's how he is now and will be forever. Just the way it is.

I don't mind Shore. I like his hustle and compete. Plays center or wing. Though he didn't play a ton of center, when he did he was almost 53% on faceoffs. Seemed decent on the PK. Making barely above league minimum. I don't see a problem with it but I know someone will tell me why he sucks and how this is the first nail in the coffin to the 21-22 season.

[Updated on: Thu, 10 June 2021 08:24]

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787506 is a reply to message #787496 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 09:34

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 23:00

There really is no other way to put this. It's lazy. Giving 2 year deals to below replacement level players. There is no good reason for a GM to do it. You can find Shore type players or better for free every season dozens of times on 100% bury-able contracts.

Just not moves you expect from a GM that is laser focused on having a productive and efficient offseason, which is what we absolutely must get this summer.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787508 is a reply to message #787501 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 09:54

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Hibernia wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:02

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 21:24

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

*Edit* If it's the only signing by October, than there is a whole lot more to complain about than this. This a molehill compared to the mountain of complaint that would (justifiably) generate.

Yeah, on the spectrum of Oilers mistakes, this is a pretty minor one.

That said, this is a really important summer for the team and this was a move that Ken Holland prioritized. He spoke about it at the year end press conference, and then it is the first thing he got done after the end of the season. That speaks some volumes.

The move this reminds me most of is Eric Gryba's last contract. He too was a healthy scratch in the playoffs, and like Shore, he was one of the first things the Oilers did that summer. He also got a two-year deal, and we heard a lot of similar defences at the time - it's not that bad, it's pretty cheap, it can be buried in the minors, he's a good soldier, he works hard, blah blah blah.

Those who complained about that deal were right to do so - he wasn't an NHLer for the bulk of that time and his buyout among of the stupidest moves of the Chia era (which is saying a lot).

http://oilfans.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=696641& ;rid=1325&SQ=a1c66ada9dba278bf29f4e35a5698d1e#msg_696641

This isn't the move that sinks the 2021-22 Oilers, but it does not make the team better, and it should be concerning that a player who so clearly is among the league's worst is considered that important to the team. I think this is as much about him playing a lot of minutes (in a top-six role no less!) in a long overtime game that we lost as it is anything else he did.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787509 is a reply to message #787502 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 10:00

PlusOne
Messages: 1525
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 08:22

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Wed, 09 June 2021 17:54

Zero need to complain about this. Zero. If by October it's the only signing yes. But right now this is just some house keeping. Lord God.

Yep and more often than not those "negative" fans are proved right time and time again. There are now multiple decades of proof to back us up.
Meanwhile, fans who lack the knowledge to recognize a bad deal when they see it continually defend even the dumbest of moves. It's like enabling an addict, turning a blind eye to the tell tale signs and behaviors simply continues the pattern of failure. The irony of you complaining about other fans constantly when you have been proven wrong time and time again is hilarious to me. Literally, most of your posts make me laugh out loud!

This isn't the worst deal but only because of the low salary. The second year is likely useless. The player is replaceable. This is not a deal that needs to be done now. I am sure Holland has multiple talks and deals on the go at once. I am not worried he prioritized this and something else is being left behind.
I am concerned signing deals like this pre-FA. Shore is the kind of player you let go to FA and you either bring him back or fill that spot with one of the other dozens of replacement level options late in FA.
This is the kind of roster spot you will with players on PTO's, or rookies who surprise in camp, not with 2 year deals in June.

Survivor LX(I) and 67 Champ(i)on

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787511 is a reply to message #787500 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 10:28

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 03:49

Amazing value for a Top-6 winger for those clutch games!

hehe.

Is it bad to think that maybe we toss 2 years at a below replacement level guy as a troll move against vocal fans? The media guys really like taking this chance to disparage fans about how they're overreacting and make everyone feel bad for bashing poor Shore. It's a wonderful setup to do something actually disappointing and damaging to our chances next year.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787516 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 11:11

Kr55
Messages: 9614
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

What? Shore was an RFA too?

lol. Really had to rush to get this done eh? Potential offer-sheets were gonna be coming.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787525 is a reply to message #787511 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 11:27

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 10:28

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 03:49

Amazing value for a Top-6 winger for those clutch games!

It's amazing how much of a chokehold the Oilers management has over the media here. They all are just part of selling hope. No one of them dares to challenge the team over any mistake, no matter how little. They'll go after players - no problem there! But management needs to be treated with kid gloves, because the only thing they can say that will create a negative response from the team is anything touching on them doing anything wrong.

Until the guy is fired, and then all of a sudden it's open season. Every media guy now has a rock to throw at Chiarelli and Eakins, but none of them breathed a word before they left. I guess 4-5 years from now we're going to hear about all the reservations Spector and Rishaug had about Old Man Holland too...

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787526 is a reply to message #787516 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 11:28

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 11:11

What? Shore was an RFA too?

lol. Really had to rush to get this done eh? Potential offer-sheets were gonna be coming.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh man. This team sometimes.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787528 is a reply to message #787502 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 11:32

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22

I don't think that's true and I don't know that it's necessary to imply that anyone that disagrees with you and doesn't like that the Oilers signed a below replacement level player to a 2-year deal is a nerd that doesn't understand how hockey really works. I also hate when the media guys do it on twitter.

I don't need a spreadsheet to tell me that Shore gets badly outscored 5x5 (yes, I'm focusing on a particular situation but it happens to be the particular situation that the majority of the game is played at). He averaged just over a minute a game on the PK and then spent the other 10 minutes getting outscored 2:1. That's not all his fault, but other than his first year in Dallas, he's never had a season where he was on the ice for more goals for than against.

Yes, they can bury his salary if necessary so this likely won't sink the team. But as others have pointed out, it doesn't make the team better in any way and better options can be found on the waiver wire or off free agency every year. The Leafs have signed Spezza 2 years in a row for $700k.

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787544 is a reply to message #787528 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 12:08

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Goose wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 11:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22

My question when I see someone complain about a player and use any stats referring to him being outscored 5 on 5 is how are they calculated and do they take into account factors that are out of his control?

He played in the bottom 6 mostly and got mostly defensive starts. Do his stats take that into account? When you only play 8-10 mins a night some of it being on the PK and you rarely get on the ice for an offensive chance, I would assume generating any kind of offense to offset goals against is pretty hard. Anytime the Oilers got the puck in the other end, McD or Leon were jumping over the boards pretty quickly.

Do his stats take into account his centers? When you get mostly defensive starts and your centers are either Haas, Khaira or the odd time Nuge who were all 45% faceoffs guys. When you lose the draw, guess what, the other team has it in your zone and generally are able to generate some kind of scoring chance which would decrease his numbers. That's the whole point of the NHL changing the rules to try to get more faceoffs in the offensive zone to generate MORE offense. So if Haas and Khaira where well over 50% faceoff guys I bet his numbers would be better because the Oilers have the puck more and get it out faster.

Do his numbers take into account other guys making mistakes when he is on the ice? So as an example. His line jumps over the boards for a shift, puck goes into the d zone, the guy he is replacing is last off, he jumps on the ice trying to get into the play, a goal is scored. He had nothing to do with the play, did nothing wrong but he would get docked because his line was on the ice for a goal. D zone, Oilers have the puck under control, one of the dmen or his linemates throws a muffin up the middle, gets picked off and a goal is scored. He was in proper position doing what he was supposed too but he would be docked because his line was on the ice. We saw that happen. Do they take into account bad goals given up? Puck comes into the zone, he does his job, forces the guy to a extremely low chance scoring spot, opposition throws the puck on goal, goalie lets in a goal that never should go in. We saw goals like that happen. He'd be docked for that. He does his job defensively, opposition has not play so they throw the puck towards the goal, puck goes off a skate, shin pad, arm, Oilers stick, goes in. He'd be docked for that.

So do all these stats that people look at and make decisions on who sucks and who doesn't take things that aren't his fault into account? He's not the missing piece to the Oilers being 2021 cup champs in my opinion but I don't see him as a waste of a spot. I see him as a serviceable NHLer bottom 6 forward who can fill a specific role while making barely above league minimum but based on some stats that people deem as critical, they see him as junk. So I just how those stats are calculated because a player can do everything perfectly on his shift but a goal gets scored because someone else on the ice screwed up. So is he the one screwing up or someone else?

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787546 is a reply to message #787544 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 13:06

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 12:08

Goose wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 11:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22

Shore wasn't being sent out to defend against the toughest competition the league can handle. While against Winnipeg, Tippett did at times use the Khaira line against top competition (they got killed of course), in the regular season, they were likely to go up against other depth players. They still got killed.

Shore's stats have been consistent in his career - he's a borderline NHLer at best and gets beated by even other borderline players. I'm sure he's great in the room though.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787547 is a reply to message #787546 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 13:35

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3705
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 12:08

Goose wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 11:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22

You didn't answer my question. Was it all his fault or not?

There is 5 guys on the ice 5 on 5. 4 guys can play the shift perfectly and 1 guy make an idiot play and a goal gets scored. Perfect example. Game 4 against the Jets. Oilers up by 1. Khaira Shore out there. Bear has the puck behind the goal on his forehand WITH TIME. There is a Jet coming BUT Bear has the time to skate it behind the goal and get away from him OR, he can turn, do a hard rim behind the net and around the boards to the Oilers forward that is sitting there WAITING for the puck all by himself. He could pin the puck against the boards and try for a whistle. He could give it to Smith to cover it. He could fire it high off the glass and out. He could flip the puck high and out of the zone. The only thing that could hurt the Oilers is he fire the puck on the ice up the middle where there are 3 Jets forwards in the middle, plus 1 dman against the close boards at the blueline and the other dmen at the blueine in the middle of the ice. That's it!

What does Bear do?

HE FIRES THE PUCK UP THE MIDDLE INTO THE SLOT! Jet player picks the puck off easily, a couple seconds later goal is scored. Shore and his whole line would have docked for that goal against and they did not a damn thing wrong. Bear did something they teach me 10 yr old to never, ever, ever do as a dman but he would have been penalized because he was on the ice and he didn't do a thing to contribute to the goal.

https://www.nhl.com/video/scheifeles-second-goal/t-324724616 /c-8458025

So that is why I ask how are the numbers calculated and do they focus on what he did directly to cause a goal or shot or is he guilty by association because his other linemates or the dman made a bone headed mistake because from what I can tell, the numbers do not separate that out. It's all cut and dry with were you on or off the ice when it happened. He played a lot of time with Khaira and for a bunch of the season, Khaira was a train wreck. Would that have hurt Shore's numbers? My guess is yes it would have.

[Updated on: Thu, 10 June 2021 13:38]

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787548 is a reply to message #787546 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 13:35

NetBOG
Messages: 2862
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:06

Shore's stats have been consistent in his career - he's a borderline NHLer at best and gets beated by even other borderline players. I'm sure he's great in the room though.

I mean, that's flat out wrong. His numbers is Dallas were good, good enough that the Ducks traded Cogs for him. It's the numbers in Ana, Clb, Edm since that have been suspect (really 2.5 good years, 2.5 mediocre years).

It's the same issue with Jake DeBrusk. Why were the numbers good for 2 years, and why the decline at age 23?

I have no issue with this deal as long as Katz is willing to pay his salary to play in the AHL. Rich teams should have 3 or 4 tweeners that can step up during injuries or be sent down if not needed.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787554 is a reply to message #787544 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 14:21

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 12:08

When you only play 8-10 mins a night some of it being on the PK and you rarely get on the ice for an offensive chance, I would assume generating any kind of offense to offset goals against is pretty hard. Anytime the Oilers got the puck in the other end, McD or Leon were jumping over the boards pretty quickly.

This part is also worth discussing. I can definitely see this being used as an argument as to why the Oilers depth has such dismal scoring. The best offensive opportunities are being given to McDavid and Draisaitl, so it's harder for the depth guys to manufacture something.

This is a bad argument. One of the most tilted stage teams ever was the Canucks with Vigneault and the Sedins, and still their depth performed well. It helped him be able to tilt so much to the Sedins because he could trust his depth not to just get slaughtered whenever they're out there.

The Oilers are putting up record-setting bad depth the last couple of years. They score way less than any other team's depth both currently and historically. You could blame Tippett's deployment, but it's not like it's close here:

Quote:

Woodguy
@Woodguy55

Final 5 team's 5v5 goal share for their bottom 6 this season:

TBY 55.2%
NYI 51.5%
MTL 47.1%
COL 68.1%
VGK 53.2%

EDM 34.8%

Wanting EDM to upgrade their bottom 6 shouldn't be a controversial opinion.

Its not "analytics thinking", its goals and winning thinking.

And while there's lots of things you can still blame Chiarelli for (Koskinen, for example, although that conveniently omits the part where Nicholson & Lowe allowed him to sign the goalie long-term just moments before firing him), depth scoring is really all Ken Holland:

James Neal - acquired by Holland
Zack Kassian - re-signed by Holland to a long, expensive deal during the hottest streak he's had in his career.
Alex Chiasson - re-signed by Holland just after he arrived
Kyle Turris - signed by Holland
Josh Archibald - signed and then re-signed by Holland
Tyler Ennis - traded for and re-signed by Holland
Dominik Kahun - signed by Holland
Gaetan Haas - signed and re-signed by Holland
Joakim Nygard - signed and re-signed by Holland
Ryan McLeod - drafted by Chiarelli, rookie deal signed by Holland
Devin Shore - signed and then re-signed by Holland
Patrick Russell - re-signed twice by Holland

So he has had an opportunity to make a decision on all these players. This was the depth group that Holland put together and they're a total failure.

And in response to that, he doubled-down on one of the guys who's stats show hes objectively one of the worst of that group.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787555 is a reply to message #787548 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 14:25

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:35

Adam wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:06

Shore's stats have been consistent in his career - he's a borderline NHLer at best and gets beated by even other borderline players. I'm sure he's great in the room though.

The year before Shore got traded, he got 32 points with Dallas. Seems decent, right? Except that he was also minus 30 on a team where no one else was worse than -14 and over half the team was in the positives. I know the response to this is often, yeah, but doesn't +/- suck as a stat? It does for some things, but it is useful as a comparative metric. If you're WAAAAAAY worse than anyone on your team, that says something.

Shore gets stomped when he's on the ice. Gives up waaaaaay more than he gets, and always has.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787556 is a reply to message #787547 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 14:33

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:35

Adam wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 12:08

Goose wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 11:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 07:22

Do you understand why people talk about stats and say "that's a small sample size?" If you take a bigger subset of information - the stats for a whole season, for example - then those things tend to work themselves out.

There will be times where they get a bad bounce when they're out there. But the good bounces should even out over a larger stretch of time.

Sometimes a player has a year that's a true anomaly. We often see this with shooting percentages - a guy goes on a heater all year and shoots the lights out, or has a miserable year and just nothing goes in. If you look at the other years, it can help paint the picture that luck, bad or good, is playing some role.

That's not the case with Shore. He's usually outscored when he's on the ice. This isn't a one-year phenomenon with him.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787558 is a reply to message #787471 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 14:41

PlusOne
Messages: 1525
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

Leave ALL of the numbers out of it. All of his history. No fancy stats, nothing but the eye test. There are a LOT of smart hockey people in here. All ages and experiences.

Can anyone tell me that Shore helped the team more than he hurt them? I find it hard to believe any person who played the game above the ODR, is over the age of 13 and has watched more than one season of NHL hockey can tell me honestly he is a positive contributor to wins.

In the end that is all that matters and with so many stats available you can prove almost any player is good or bad.
He fails the eye test, badly.

This is the only key to me;

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 13:35

I have no issue with this deal as long as Katz is willing to pay his salary to play in the AHL. Rich teams should have 3 or 4 tweeners that can step up during injuries or be sent down if not needed.

The problem is that history tells me he will sit in our bottom 6 for two years, contributing nothing.

Survivor LX(I) and 67 Champ(i)on

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787566 is a reply to message #787556 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 15:30

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 10 June 2021 14:33

Looks like someone else doesn't understand sample size or the uselessness of pulling out single plays out of a stack of an entire season and trying to use them as evidence to prove a point:

Quote:

Ryan Rishaug
@TSNRyanRishaug

Lots of discussion about the number of 5v5 goals Shore was on the ice for last season. Analytics community doesn't love this player. Dove into some of those goals against this morning and results were interesting. Will discuss with @nielsonTSN1260 at 8:25.

Either that or the lowest integrity reporter in Edmonton is working hard to try to get in Holland's good books so that he can break the next bad trade first again!

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Re: Shore Signs Two Year Extension [message #787569 is a reply to message #787554 ]	Thu, 10 June 2021 15:37

Adam
Messages: 6825
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

One more on depth:

Quote:

Woodguy
@Woodguy55

Had a request to overlay EDM GM's with their 5v5 Goal Share without their best player on the ice.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2PLcEWVoAAM8H4?format=png&name=medium

Blue line is average NHL playoff team's 5v5 goal share with their best player off the ice:

Worth noting - this even takes in to account the bump up that the results get when Draisaitl is on the ice without McDavid! Imagine what it looks like if it's without the top two players on the ice!!!!

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