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Oilers » Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13)

Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745883]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:00

OilFans
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Location: Edmonton

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745885 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:06

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Try arriving ready to play like the other teams, Oilers, 3rd period pushes when you didn't compete in the first 2 aren't cutting it.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745886 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:07

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

Second worst team in the league? Of course they'd beat the sack of wind that are the 2019-20 Edmonton Oilers. Game plan: shut down Connor and Drai at least for most of the game, and you will win even if you couldn't score to save your own life.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745887 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:08

smyth260
Messages: 1071
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

So when is Ken Holland's honeymoon over and when can we start questioning his abysmal 3rd/4th lines?

Virtually all of those players, save Khaira and Gagner, are his projects.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745888 is a reply to message #745886 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:08

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

Too negative for you pollyanna fans out there? They just lost to the 2nd-worst team in the league, a team that are widely expected to threaten for the 1st pick in the coming draft.

[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2019 09:55]

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745889 is a reply to message #745887 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:10

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2019 20:08

So when is Ken Holland's honeymoon over and when can we start questioning his abysmal 3rd/4th lines?

Virtually all of those players, save Khaira and Gagner, are his projects.

Let's seriously not go overboard: the scoring depth was completely destroyed by Pistol Pete last year. I'm frustrated as hell with their lack of scoring ability, but I will not pin that mess on Ken. The only question is what steps he attempts to take to rectify this glaring weakness.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745890 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:25

Kr55
Messages: 10724
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Missed the 3rd.

Saw we scored and was very hopeful that the goal was by a 3rd or 4th line...

https://media.giphy.com/media/k6hUtYdBkMlmpJOKPr/giphy.gif

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745891 is a reply to message #745886 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:43

overdue
Messages: 493
Registered: October 2014

No Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2019 20:07

Reminds you of an era of the Canucks when if you shut the Sedin's down you pretty much had it in the bag. Even they had 'some' depth scoring though I think. Not too hard for other teams to figure out when you look at how soft the bottom end of our forward group is. Need an infusion of fresh blood here whether in the form of players coming off of injury or some farm hands.

[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2019 20:46]

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745892 is a reply to message #745886 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 20:49

Slim Jim Phantom Call
Messages: 202
Registered: May 2002
Location: E-Ville

No Cups

Pretty sure you could sit any forward not in the top 3 and not miss a beat. Not to bust Nuge’s balls too much, but he’s long overdue to show anything at even strength. That second line is absolutely killing this team. Shut down Connor and Leon and you can pretty much guarantee a victory cuz not a single forward is even remotely a threat.

Might also be neat if they showed up to start the game for a change.

Oilers gonna Oil

In fairness to Hall, I've wanted to throw a waterbottle at Eakins all season.
~nullterm 03/22/2014

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745894 is a reply to message #745890 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 21:01

inverno76
Messages: 2336
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

I’m not tossing Holland under the bus either. Secondary scoring should be there. We need some playmakers on these bottom two lines.

I think the P.Russel experiment is over. He’d be a great addition to the Condors.

What’s up Mr. Benson?

Also Benning. Wishing Persson a speedy recovery. Bring up Jones for a couple games while he conditions in the AHL.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745898 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 21:43

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4405
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Didn't watch it, erase as soon as I get home !

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745899 is a reply to message #745889 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 21:43

smyth260
Messages: 1071
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

I don't think questioning him is overboard. The season isn't lost.

It is way too easy to blame Chiarelli for this when really these are largely Holland transactions. Jurco, Haas, Nygard, Sheahan, Granlund, and an expensive Chiasson all have 1 goal total and were all of his additions. 8 wins on the back of McDavid and Draisaitl don't absolve him of what looks to be even worse depth than the record setters last year. Lack of cap space isn't much of an argument, that group doesn't make much and is replaceable.

The question is, do we see this getting better? Probably a bit, but I think this is much less about bad luck and more about bad players.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745901 is a reply to message #745899 ]	Tue, 29 October 2019 22:30

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2019 21:43

Nothing wrong with questioning Holland or anyone else associated with this team and its track record of failure. I’m just saying that it’s not fair to pin guys like Khaira on him since they were sucking here long before he showed up. It’s also fair to bring up the fact that Pistol Pete bent this team over and rammed them hard with the cap-space stick which meant that Holland had almost nothing to work with where it came to bolstering the scoring depth of this team. If anything, Holland managed to pull some magic off when he somehow bamboozled his way into trading away Loo’s contract.

I certainly agree that I’d like to see him make some more moves sooner than later, because he surely can’t have been fooled by the team’s start to the season into thinking that nothing needs to be fixed. Yamamoto among others should be given a shot, because there is no way that he could be worse unless he actively shot pucks at his own net during games.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745907 is a reply to message #745901 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 07:09

Mike
Messages: 1396
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

So it is ok with the pom pom brigade for us to voice our concern now, or do we still need to wait some more?

Even the great record to to start the season - we trailed in every single one of those games. Our D has been OK. Goaltending has been OK - I expect duds every once in a while, and honestly both guys have had more good games than I would have expected at this point (though Koskinen's glove is AHL level at best).

But man - that depth. Honestly, I was happy with Holland's moves. On paper I thought our bottom 7-8 guys looked pretty good, much improved from the historically bad collection from last year. Obviously I suck at evaluating NHL talent.

So what now? Stand pat until we piss away all of the cushion we've built up?

The TEAM hasn't looked that good in many games. The dynamic duo, sure, but as a whole? Not much there.

Should we get Ho-Sang over here? What's the worst that can happen? He doesn't score and has a bad attitude? Waive him. Best case, he realized (like Kassian), that his career might be in jeopardy and he decides to come in and give it 100% and check his attitude.

Bring up Yamomoto, Benson, whomever. See if Jesse will come back, if not, try to get a decent 3C for him? I don't know - I'm not a GM. But what I do know is that sitting back and doing nothing will prove disatrous. Connor and Leon aren't going to have 200+ point seasons and play 26 min/nt through 82. They need help, and they need it now.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745910 is a reply to message #745898 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 08:30

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 29 October 2019 21:43

Didn't watch it, erase as soon as I get home !

I thankfully had a lot of kids hockey last night so I wasn't able to watch it. Erased it as well. From the little I heard on the radio for the first 2 periods. A garbage effort. Whole team didn't show up.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745928 is a reply to message #745907 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 11:27

overdue
Messages: 493
Registered: October 2014

No Cups

So even though the deck chairs have been re arranged nothing much has changed is what it looks like right now. Still over the top reliant on a few players to make it happen but we do have 4 guys that are pretty decent players who will be coming off injury at some point. A call up or two to plug some holes might help the situation in the meantime.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745930 is a reply to message #745894 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 12:08

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2019 21:01

I am not throwing Holland under the bus either. I am sure he was aware of guys like Benson, Yamo, etc. Every GM in the league knows what other teams have to a degree. I know he watched Bakersfield in the playoffs last year so he got to see them play a bit. I am sure he saw a few guys like Benson, Marody and had a book on Yamo from scouts. He probably knew they would be close but most likely needed more development time. Realistically, Benson and Marody are probably 3rd liners. Even Yamo is probably a 3rd/maybe second liner. So he brought in a bunch of guys for the bottom 6 on 1 yr, cheap deals. The purpose was to give the young guys the time they needed. I don't think he thought all of the guys he signed would pan out but I am sure he expected some too. That includes guys he resigned.

Khaira. He was bad last year but there are a ton of guys in the media, including the stats guys that are big on him. If the Oilers negative media stats guys are high on him, you have to think Oilers scouts would be high on him. Lowtide raved about him for years. I think he's been worse than last year.

Chiasson had 22 goals last year. He was resigned. We'd all like the every contract to be cheaper. I don't think anyone thought he would get 22 again but low to mid teens was realistic as he has many seasons of that. I know people are down on the signing and there are a lot of I told you so's but I believe if they are truthful, how do you let 22 goals just walk from your line up when you need depth scoring. He's been quiet.

Granlund is a pretty proven bottom 6 guy. He was signed for 1 year at just over 1 mill. Getting 10 from him isn't unrealistic. He's done it multiple times playing in the same role.

Sheahan playing in a bottom 6, checking role has scored around 10 or more goals multiple seasons.

All those guys are signings or resignings. All are reasonably good bets and some should hit.

Next level.

Jurco a shot in the dark. Has NHL skill but doesn't seem to be able to put it together nor does he have the desire. He will be 27 in Dec. You'd think we'd see a hungry player because this is probably it for him in the NHL if it doesn't go well.

Archibald doesn't have a ton of resume but had 12 goals last year. Seems like a Tippett guy. Illness and injury maybe help him back. Hard to say.
I think the P. Russell experiment needs to end. I like the hustle and try, I know Tippet like him because he gives it his all, the offense isn't there. He's a tweener. He's this years Brad Malone. A good AHL guy who does lots of things right, does some things at an NHL level, does what the coach asks which coaches love, won't kill you if he's in but just doesn't have any NHL offense.

Nygard I think the team misses. He seemed to be getting better with each game. I think they have a legit player in him. His injury came at a really bad time.

Haas was a shot in the dark. I didn't mind the try. I think he's a guy that actually has some legit pieces and could be a player. I just think he needs a full year in the AHL to get used to the NHL style of game. I think this is it for him if he doesn't click in the NHL. He's already said he wouldn't stay in the AHL all year if it wasn't working. I bet he goes back to Europe in the next few weeks

So there is 8 guys, 6 of them have having NHL experience and most of them having proven track records playing the same roles they are asked. You'd think some of them would hit.

[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2019 12:19]

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745931 is a reply to message #745930 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 12:24

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Rather than hoping the bottom six score, why not dress 6 forwards and 13 D? I hear we have a lot of defensive depth on the farm right now.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745932 is a reply to message #745931 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 12:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 12:24

Rather than hoping the bottom six score, why not dress 6 forwards and 13 D? I hear we have a lot of defensive depth on the farm right now.

Good point. I heard the other day that Jones is supposedly looking fantastic and looking like a cut above. He probably couldn't do any worse than a few of the bottom 6 guys.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745933 is a reply to message #745883 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 12:30

Rocksteady
Messages: 524
Registered: March 2007

No Cups

I'm puzzled that some are up in arms about the Oilers. This depth issue is not new and was presenting itself way before they were 7and 1. I wanted to ignore that fact and was enjoying the ride but now we just want to throw Holland under the bus because of the lack of movement in the bottom 6?

Come on now people, we know the issues going on with this team.
1.Pete (solved but the ramifications of him being here will be long felt.) .
2. Management (All of them, Bob on down)
3. Cap Space
4. Depth players, farm system was chaotic
5. Players that are playing above their ceiling (like Chiasson)

None of this is new and reading some posts on this thread and I see people flabbergasted over what is being presented. It was all there. All of it.

Holland cannot do much with the salary cap hell he is in now and to yell at him for having this problem doesn't help; it won't help. It befalls management and their multi decade of ineptness.

Guys this will last 2+ years. Connor may ask for a trade then if there is no moves to improvement, it's entirely possible. I hope it will not come to pass but look at this team. The cards are all there, right there on the table. You may not like the answers they are giving you.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745935 is a reply to message #745933 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 12:39

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 12:30

Pardon me but every manager, coach and executive that was directly or indirectly responsible has been scapegoated and move out of the organization. I fail to see any parallels between that team's management and the current one.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745939 is a reply to message #745933 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 13:20

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 12:30

We all know the issues, I find it's more helpful me personally and for my sanity to applaud the good play and bicth about the bad. If Holland and Tippet can improve the personnel and get more out of what's here respectively, that would be great.

Connor and Leon won't survive a season of 25 minute nights, that's clear.

Sacrifice a chicken for supportive scoring already, I can't believe they haven't tried that.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745947 is a reply to message #745907 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 14:50

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Mike wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 06:09

I thought our bottom 6 additions were decent in the offseason too. I'm starting to wonder if it's not just a personnel problem, but a coaching and/or physiological problem. We've seen this since McDavid arrived no matter who the players are and no matter who the coach is. Having two of the best players in the league on the top line must be having an affect here. There just isn't enough pressure on the remaining players to score goals, because they literally do not have to for the team to win games.

God forbid McDavid gets hurt, but if he did I would guess that our bottom 6 scoring would pick up rather quickly.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745948 is a reply to message #745947 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 14:56

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

Steve wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 14:50

God forbid McDavid gets hurt, but if he did I would guess that our bottom 6 scoring would pick up rather quickly.

How would Connor getting hurt help the bottom 6 to score more often? If anything, his presence should theoretically make it easier for those plugs given that opposing teams can't ice tougher lines against them because they have to be prepared to handle the Oil's first line at all times. If McDavid gets hurt, this team is in serious trouble.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745950 is a reply to message #745933 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 15:47

smyth260
Messages: 1071
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 11:30

Cap space and blaming Chiarelli is such an easy and weak excuse when talking about the bottom six depth scoring on this team.

Sheahan, Jurco, Granlund, P. Russell, Haas, Chiasson, Archibald, and Nygard are all contracts signed under Ken Holland. That is 8 "depth" players taking up 8.65 million of cap space that Peter Chiarelli had nothing to do with. That is enough cap space to produce a bottom 6 that can score more than 1 goal in 13 games.

It has become pretty clear that Holland and company made a lot of bad bets. Nobody is calling to fire the guy, but he absolutely deserves to be questioned for this. The bottom end of this roster is his mess.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #745951 is a reply to message #745950 ]	Wed, 30 October 2019 15:52

Kr55
Messages: 10724
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 15:47

Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 11:30

One thing to consider is the bottom 6 PDO is under 0.900 now I believe. There is a pretty dark curse hovering over our bottom 6 players if that somehow managed to continue without some kind of regression back towards the mean. It's a perfect combination of not good players and really bad luck, and it unfortunately perfectly fits into a narrative everyone has been dreading would come to pass.

It's been doing on so long too. It would ahve been nice to keep Caggiula and Strome, but those same guys were in the super crazy low PDO zone last year too, Strome especially before he got away from this team. I think Caggiula got the bump to the top lines to get a little bit of a stat boost before we made that awesome Manning trade.

There really could be something in the water :) Maybe bottom 6 guys get the water laced with radon.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #746025 is a reply to message #745948 ]	Thu, 31 October 2019 10:31

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 13:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 14:50

God forbid McDavid gets hurt, but if he did I would guess that our bottom 6 scoring would pick up rather quickly.

I agree the Oilers would be in serious trouble if MacDavid got hurt. That's not the point. The point is that there is an apparent psychological effect on the bottom 6 not needing to score goals on a McDavid team. If McDavid got hurt, I think the bottom 6 guys would find a way to grind more goals. They would also get more ice time to score. Right now they are encouraged to keep shifts as short as possible in order to get Line #1 out there as fast as possible.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #746026 is a reply to message #745933 ]	Thu, 31 October 2019 11:06

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 12:30

In my opinion, it's a lot easier for people to focus on the negative and expect the worst because let's be honest, the Oilers have been lousy for awhile. So if all you do is point out the negative and expect the worst, in a way there is no way of you being wrong. The Oilers previous resume is bad so it's easy pickings and impossible for someone to argue the past because the results speak for themselves. On the flip side, if the Oilers do end up being remotely decent, no one will give the negative person crap for jumping on the bandwagon.

So it's a win win situation for those who set the bar very low.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #746028 is a reply to message #745947 ]	Thu, 31 October 2019 12:30

overdue
Messages: 493
Registered: October 2014

No Cups

Steve wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 14:50

I agree with you're theory and have mentioned it in a post on here before. Same mindset as in past seasons, even though many of the players have been changed out, because of how good that top line is. The bottom 6 take a back seat in every way except maybe penalty killing. You would think McDavid's presence and example would lift the rest of the team to a higher level but in this case it doesn't seem to work that way. The players on his line benefit with better offensive numbers ( Chaisson last season ) but that's as far as it goes. That's why I also think they need to start scale
ing back the dynamic duo in ice time ( unless the situation is dire ) and give a bit more to the bottom end of the team. Winning games is everything and the big stars can do that for you,( some of the time ) but it may come with a price. IE burnout or injury. I guess another way to look at it is they make as much as 3 or 4 times the money the lesser players do so they should be playing more and getting the juicy assignments but if it continues probably ends up with the team going nowhere. Too predictable and easier to defend. Guess you can't blame the coaches for riding them as much as possible though given that their job is to try to manufacture wins.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #746031 is a reply to message #746028 ]	Thu, 31 October 2019 13:31

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

overdue wrote on Thu, 31 October 2019 12:30

Steve wrote on Wed, 30 October 2019 14:50

You really would think that a young offensive player would be able to produce behind McDavid beecause they're facing the 2nd and 3rd pairing more often. Could it be that the "role player" guys are such offensive black holes that they erase that advantage? It was certainly the case with Lucic.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Review: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #13) [message #746041 is a reply to message #746031 ]	Thu, 31 October 2019 17:59

overdue
Messages: 493
Registered: October 2014

No Cups

No doubt about Lucic, but he actually played on the first and second lines and the power play for way longer than they should have let him and he was still a bust. All those players suck or sucked? They were good enough to make it to the NHL but not good enough to play on the Oilers bottom six ? I know Holland is limited by the mess Chia left but still... it has been an ongoing problem with the team. The saving grace might be our young D, Bear and the ones still on the farm, showing signs of being able to contribute to the offence a bit. In the meantime I hope the guys they have brought in can pick it up. Nygard looked to be the best of the lot and he should be back soon.

[Updated on: Thu, 31 October 2019 18:12]

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