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 Speculation » Sam Gagner, third time's a charm?
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 Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811213]
Sun, 14 August 2022 14:41 Go to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FaJKkFuUYAAKmX9?format=jpg&name=small

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /could-the-3rd-time-be-a-charm-for-the-edmonton-oilers-and-s am-gagner-9-things

Quote:

1.There is lots of speculation as to just which players Holland has talked to. But my information that one of them is indeed former Oiler Sam Gagner. Gagner had a very respectable year in Detroit in 2021-22. In 81 games, he went 13-18-31 and was just -4 on a bad team. And 21 of those points were at 5v5. Sam is not the player he was when Edmonton first drafted him. But in some ways, that could work in his favor. Gagner is a Center on Hockey DB only. He is now primarily a Right Wing, coincidentally the position where the Oilers may be the weakest. Although while just a career 46% man at the faceoff dot, he is not bad on his strong side. And he has re-invented himself defensively, spending 191 total minutes on the ice short-handed last year. Further, past teammates and coaches have nothing but good things to say about Gagner as a teammate and a good pro who sets a great example. At 33, Sam is not “old” …yet. And when he is done, Gagner would be a solid candidate for getting into player development.


If this is just idle talk, my heart is gonna be angry going through this emotional game yet again.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811214 is a reply to message #811213 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811215 is a reply to message #811214 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811216 is a reply to message #811215 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jakey is currently offline Jakey
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Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811217 is a reply to message #811216 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811218 is a reply to message #811217 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?

The fans need to see people who look like hockey players doing hockey player stuff for a few minutes every period just to keep the energy up.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811219 is a reply to message #811217 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?


Because it has been indoctrinated into the fan base by years gone by. Old school mentality that many teams still unsuccessfully operate on. A cheap Sam Gagner is a good thing who loves the team, the city and the fans, especially on a young team.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811220 is a reply to message #811219 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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inverno76 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?


Because it has been indoctrinated into the fan base by years gone by. Old school mentality that many teams still unsuccessfully operate on. A cheap Sam Gagner is a good thing who loves the team, the city and the fans, especially on a young team.


Sam doesn't quit and sounds like his defensive game has improved a lot. Even playing the PK now.

I want guys that don't have their effort level vanish for long periods of time, like Kassian outside of maybe 2 playoff games (first vs LA a last vs Col?), like Foegele basically all playoffs. ARchie tries...but he's just not a good player. Team bleeds chances and goals against when he's out there because he's a non-factor regarding the puck.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811221 is a reply to message #811220 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 11:06

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?


Because it has been indoctrinated into the fan base by years gone by. Old school mentality that many teams still unsuccessfully operate on. A cheap Sam Gagner is a good thing who loves the team, the city and the fans, especially on a young team.


Sam doesn't quit and sounds like his defensive game has improved a lot. Even playing the PK now.

I want guys that don't have their effort level vanish for long periods of time, like Kassian outside of maybe 2 playoff games (first vs LA a last vs Col?), like Foegele basically all playoffs. ARchie tries...but he's just not a good player. Team bleeds chances and goals against when he's out there because he's a non-factor regarding the puck.


I don't even really believe that Kassian's true issue is effort level. I think that as systems play becomes more and more important, it creates an either/or choice for borderline players. Either they break the system to land more hits, or they stick to the system at the expense of those high profile plays. Archibald tended to prefer the hits to the system, but because of that he was a liability that could be exposed. Kassian would stray out every so often, but a lot of the games where he was trying to be a real menace, it would blow up in his face - he'd make a bad pinch for a hit and we'd get scored on, or he'd push the aggressiveness too far and get a penalty where we would get scored on. So he'd default back to systems play - which accomplishes what the coach wants, but when you're not that great, then it doesn't turn in to scoring opportunities much.

I do think it's interesting how much time Kassian got in the top six last season, and how little criticism he got for being a black hole when he was there as opposed to Puljujarvi (and earlier in the season Yamamoto) despite the other players scoring twice as much.

Some of the best teams in the league are taking this approach with older guys like Spezza, Thornton, Perry...the Oilers would do well to follow that trend if they have older guys willing to sign cheap deals.

The extra advantage? If you're giving guys like that a $1MM contract, you can bury the whole thing in the minors if it doesn't work out, and guys like that may prefer to be LTIRed rather than finish their career in the AHL anyhow.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811222 is a reply to message #811221 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 11:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 11:06

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?


Because it has been indoctrinated into the fan base by years gone by. Old school mentality that many teams still unsuccessfully operate on. A cheap Sam Gagner is a good thing who loves the team, the city and the fans, especially on a young team.


Sam doesn't quit and sounds like his defensive game has improved a lot. Even playing the PK now.

I want guys that don't have their effort level vanish for long periods of time, like Kassian outside of maybe 2 playoff games (first vs LA a last vs Col?), like Foegele basically all playoffs. ARchie tries...but he's just not a good player. Team bleeds chances and goals against when he's out there because he's a non-factor regarding the puck.


I don't even really believe that Kassian's true issue is effort level. I think that as systems play becomes more and more important, it creates an either/or choice for borderline players. Either they break the system to land more hits, or they stick to the system at the expense of those high profile plays. Archibald tended to prefer the hits to the system, but because of that he was a liability that could be exposed. Kassian would stray out every so often, but a lot of the games where he was trying to be a real menace, it would blow up in his face - he'd make a bad pinch for a hit and we'd get scored on, or he'd push the aggressiveness too far and get a penalty where we would get scored on. So he'd default back to systems play - which accomplishes what the coach wants, but when you're not that great, then it doesn't turn in to scoring opportunities much.

I do think it's interesting how much time Kassian got in the top six last season, and how little criticism he got for being a black hole when he was there as opposed to Puljujarvi (and earlier in the season Yamamoto) despite the other players scoring twice as much.

Some of the best teams in the league are taking this approach with older guys like Spezza, Thornton, Perry...the Oilers would do well to follow that trend if they have older guys willing to sign cheap deals.

The extra advantage? If you're giving guys like that a $1MM contract, you can bury the whole thing in the minors if it doesn't work out, and guys like that may prefer to be LTIRed rather than finish their career in the AHL anyhow.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a clear pattern with Kassian over and over. Dude will go through periods of invisibility, not even trying to mix up with the other team. Then when it's a contract year, or he's getting called out suddenly he's running around in everyone face and getting involved in plays and after the whistle stuff. Sometimes the hype of the moment probably gets him going too, like early in the playoffs, he didn't that twice against LA and the Sharks, then back to invisible. He did appear in our nothing to lose elimination game too vs Colorado. Think some guys just need some outside reason to bring a full effort, not unlike most people on this earth, and Kassian goes through really long periods of not having one.

Always appreciated Gags having some fire in his belly. Even if if defensive awareness was zero for most of his time here :) He always gave a crap still and didn't take crap. Sounds like he's really become a leader everywhere he's gone in his later years, and he ended up having a pretty productive season last year. Take him 10 times out of 10 over a guy like Brassard at least. Definitely better than most of the stuff we've been rotating on the 4th line lately.

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- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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- All Oilers fans, Present Day

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811228 is a reply to message #811221 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 14:22

Thornton, Perry...the Oilers would do well to follow that trend if they have older guys willing to sign cheap deals.


This antiquated idea of NEEDING "energy guys" and hitters on your 3rd and 4th line is honestly disastrous in trying to build a championship team. If they bring energy (like a Hyman) and hit (like Kane), awesome. But those are extras IMO. First and foremost, you need to have guys who can play hockey. And the goal in hockey is to outscore your opponents. Not outhit or out energy them.

Kessel+Gagner for like $2M total in a bottom 6 role? Hell yeah! I'll take that any day of the week and twice on Sundays ahead of Shore+Archibald. Might have a few less hits, but I could almost guarantee they would score more goals.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811229 is a reply to message #811215 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811231 is a reply to message #811229 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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- All Oilers fans, Present Day

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811234 is a reply to message #811231 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol

Gagner is a not great skating, 4th liner on the Oilers. Kessel could play on your 3rd line. Big difference in my opinion between the 2 players.

If Gagner never played for the Oilers, I highly doubt very many fans would want him so just because he used to play for the Oilers and some fans have a soft spot for him, doesn't mean it would be a smart signing.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811235 is a reply to message #811229 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811236 is a reply to message #811231 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811237 is a reply to message #811236 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

I have to assume there's no one who wants Barrie or Foegele because it would have already happened. Unless they're waiting for cabins to close up.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811238 is a reply to message #811237 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:33

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

I have to assume there's no one who wants Barrie or Foegele because it would have already happened. Unless they're waiting for cabins to close up.


Foegele for sure. 2.75Mx2 for a guy that could be comparable to guys that hit the waiver wire all season long? No thanks.

I think the team likes Barrie though and there might be a hump to get over for the org to move him. I didn't see any indication the Oilers shopped Barrie, only comments that they don't want to trade him. Part of the issue as well is how it would be extra effort to replace him if we do trade him. While Foegele is pretty easy to replace.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811239 is a reply to message #811238 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:39

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:33

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

I have to assume there's no one who wants Barrie or Foegele because it would have already happened. Unless they're waiting for cabins to close up.


Foegele for sure. 2.75Mx2 for a guy that could be comparable to guys that hit the waiver wire all season long? No thanks.

I think the team likes Barrie though and there might be a hump to get over for the org to move him. I didn't see any indication the Oilers shopped Barrie, only comments that they don't want to trade him. Part of the issue as well is how it would be extra effort to replace him if we do trade him. While Foegele is pretty easy to replace.

Other NHL teams pay attention though. I'm sure someone, aside from us, has noticed they're 6 million over the cap and need to sell off some players. A couple of the old GMs certainly have Kenny's pager number.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811240 is a reply to message #811239 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:53

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:39

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:33

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

I have to assume there's no one who wants Barrie or Foegele because it would have already happened. Unless they're waiting for cabins to close up.


Foegele for sure. 2.75Mx2 for a guy that could be comparable to guys that hit the waiver wire all season long? No thanks.

I think the team likes Barrie though and there might be a hump to get over for the org to move him. I didn't see any indication the Oilers shopped Barrie, only comments that they don't want to trade him. Part of the issue as well is how it would be extra effort to replace him if we do trade him. While Foegele is pretty easy to replace.

Other NHL teams pay attention though. I'm sure someone, aside from us, has noticed they're 6 million over the cap and need to sell off some players. A couple of the old GMs certainly have Kenny's pager number.


Trying to think where Barrie is a fit now. Seattle was perfect at the start of summer. They were clearly desperate for a RHD because they tossed Schultz 3Mx2. Jultz is physically pretty beat up at this point of his career, that's a risky deal, but was a desperate team. Don't think I saw any hint that the Oilers tried to get involved in that. Montreal was another team mentioned early in the summer that could be a fit for Barrie, but Montreal has no cap space.

Probably true that Barrie is not seen as some big score by teams. Still a useful player if you have that RHD opening though. Not sure media guys report much on that caliber of player unless the team that has him is putting out the word he's available.


Not sure if anyone here has seen/heard something about the Oilers shopping? I only recall media guys speculating how Foegele and Barrie make sense to move. What with this lack of Oilers leaks and telegraphing their moves these days? Damn you Brad Holland!!!

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811242 is a reply to message #811240 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 14:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:53

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:39

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:33

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:26

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol


Trade Barrie and Foegele, add those three guys, dump Shore to the minors if no one will take him...and the crazy thing is we would still have cap room after that.

I have to assume there's no one who wants Barrie or Foegele because it would have already happened. Unless they're waiting for cabins to close up.


Foegele for sure. 2.75Mx2 for a guy that could be comparable to guys that hit the waiver wire all season long? No thanks.

I think the team likes Barrie though and there might be a hump to get over for the org to move him. I didn't see any indication the Oilers shopped Barrie, only comments that they don't want to trade him. Part of the issue as well is how it would be extra effort to replace him if we do trade him. While Foegele is pretty easy to replace.

Other NHL teams pay attention though. I'm sure someone, aside from us, has noticed they're 6 million over the cap and need to sell off some players. A couple of the old GMs certainly have Kenny's pager number.


Trying to think where Barrie is a fit now. Seattle was perfect at the start of summer. They were clearly desperate for a RHD because they tossed Schultz 3Mx2. Jultz is physically pretty beat up at this point of his career, that's a risky deal, but was a desperate team. Don't think I saw any hint that the Oilers tried to get involved in that. Montreal was another team mentioned early in the summer that could be a fit for Barrie, but Montreal has no cap space.

Probably true that Barrie is not seen as some big score by teams. Still a useful player if you have that RHD opening though. Not sure media guys report much on that caliber of player unless the team that has him is putting out the word he's available.


Not sure if anyone here has seen/heard something about the Oilers shopping? I only recall media guys speculating how Foegele and Barrie make sense to move. What with this lack of Oilers leaks and telegraphing their moves these days? Damn you Brad Holland!!!


I think Klingberg screwed us a little on moving Barrie early. Why pay for Tyson Barrie when you can get Klingberg for free. That dragged on so long and we hit cottage season.

He's still movable though and I could see a team taking him to man their PP. Someone lost out when Klingberg finally signed.

With Foegele, I assume you need to send a late draft pick with him for "future considerations" to a team like Chicago who wants to make sure they A) are above the cap floor and B) aren't very good this year. When they finally trade Toews and Kane, they may need to buy up some contracts to stay in bounds.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811243 is a reply to message #811234 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol

Gagner is a not great skating, 4th liner on the Oilers. Kessel could play on your 3rd line. Big difference in my opinion between the 2 players.

If Gagner never played for the Oilers, I highly doubt very many fans would want him so just because he used to play for the Oilers and some fans have a soft spot for him, doesn't mean it would be a smart signing.


So Haas and Nygaard need to come back? Elite skaters. Skating is only part of the picture, if it meant everything then Yak would still be in the NHL.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811244 is a reply to message #811243 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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inverno76 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 15:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol

Gagner is a not great skating, 4th liner on the Oilers. Kessel could play on your 3rd line. Big difference in my opinion between the 2 players.

If Gagner never played for the Oilers, I highly doubt very many fans would want him so just because he used to play for the Oilers and some fans have a soft spot for him, doesn't mean it would be a smart signing.


So Haas and Nygaard need to come back? Elite skaters. Skating is only part of the picture, if it meant everything then Yak would still be in the NHL.


Imagine how good Yak would have been if someone thought to actually release bees into the rink?

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811248 is a reply to message #811235 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811251 is a reply to message #811248 ]
Mon, 15 August 2022 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.


I'm curious who you'd prefer to have on the fourth line rather than Gagner. Is Devin Shore (11 points last year) your guy? Warren Foegele (26 pts)? Derek Ryan (22 pts)? Are you a huge fan of the Jannmark (26 pts) signing? You really don't think that Gagner would slot in above ANY of those guys?!?!

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811256 is a reply to message #811251 ]
Tue, 16 August 2022 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.


I'm curious who you'd prefer to have on the fourth line rather than Gagner. Is Devin Shore (11 points last year) your guy? Warren Foegele (26 pts)? Derek Ryan (22 pts)? Are you a huge fan of the Jannmark (26 pts) signing? You really don't think that Gagner would slot in above ANY of those guys?!?!



You keep banging on me for points. I haven't gone back to count my responses but this will be the 3rd or 4th time I will say the same thing. Maybe it sinks in this time for you. As a 4th liner, I am looking for a guys who bring speed, preferably some size if possible, not be a defensive disaster, be nice if they could kill penalties, be nice if they could win faceoffs. Scoring 25+ pits is WAY down on my list. If they get their, great, if they don't 15-20 is just fine. Anyone on the 4th line isn't going to play more than 10 mins tops.

If nothing changes with the forwards, these are the 12 I see on the team. McD, Leon, Kane, Hyman, JP, Yamo, Nuge, McLeod, Janmark, Foegele, Ryan and Holloway.

I have Holloway on the team because they could use his combination of size, speed and skill and he is cheap. They need a few cheap guys.

I have Ryan on the team because he can kill penalties and is a right shot center that wins almost 56% of his draws. When in the defensive zone, win a faceoff is important. Since you mention the numbers, he put up 10 goals, 22 pts playing with 4th liners while not playing a lot.
I have Janmark on the team because he skates really well, plays wing or center, has a little size and has experience killing penalties.
I have Foegele on the team (assuming he isn't traded) because he has some size, skates well, forechecks well, did kill penalties in Carolina, a good PK team and was able to put up 12 goals while not getting to play with anyone but bottom 6 guys and not playing a ton.

The only guy that doesn't skate that well is Ryan. So if Gagner can out skate Ryan as well as out face off Ryan, then sure give Gagner his spot. If he can't, I am going to play Ryan on the 4th line because if that line gets caught on an icing or he's out on the PK or you need a center late in the game on the right side to win you a draw to preserve a win, I am going to take the career 55.5% faceoff guy who was 55.88 last year over the career vs Gagner who's a career 45.6 and was only 46.7 last year.

I would much rather they that guys that skate better than Gagner but if Gagner is cool to come in on a PTO and he beats out Shore or whoever else to be an extra forward, I have no issue with that. But I would not give him a contract right now.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 August 2022 09:49]

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811257 is a reply to message #811217 ]
Tue, 16 August 2022 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jakey is currently offline Jakey
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Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18

Jakey wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 10:12

Love Gagner the person. We need speed, grit and size from the bottom 6. While Gagner is smart and plays a heads up game, he is too slow and small for what we need....even if he comes in at league minimum.


Can you explain why we need "size and grit" in the bottom six?



Above average speed is a must in all positions in today's game (Avs proved that) & Grit, physicality and toughness is somethin the Oilers could use more of as long as it doesn't sacrifice speed, talent, hockey iQ, etc. Those qualities are what bottom 6 lines are made of. Love Gagner's iQ and skillset....don't like his speed and size. We need to be harder to paly against and qualities like speed, physicality, grit & size are what is needed in that regard IMO.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811260 is a reply to message #811256 ]
Tue, 16 August 2022 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 09:46

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.


I'm curious who you'd prefer to have on the fourth line rather than Gagner. Is Devin Shore (11 points last year) your guy? Warren Foegele (26 pts)? Derek Ryan (22 pts)? Are you a huge fan of the Jannmark (26 pts) signing? You really don't think that Gagner would slot in above ANY of those guys?!?!



You keep banging on me for points. I haven't gone back to count my responses but this will be the 3rd or 4th time I will say the same thing. Maybe it sinks in this time for you. As a 4th liner, I am looking for a guys who bring speed, preferably some size if possible, not be a defensive disaster, be nice if they could kill penalties, be nice if they could win faceoffs. Scoring 25+ pits is WAY down on my list. If they get their, great, if they don't 15-20 is just fine. Anyone on the 4th line isn't going to play more than 10 mins tops.

If nothing changes with the forwards, these are the 12 I see on the team. McD, Leon, Kane, Hyman, JP, Yamo, Nuge, McLeod, Janmark, Foegele, Ryan and Holloway.

I have Holloway on the team because they could use his combination of size, speed and skill and he is cheap. They need a few cheap guys.

I have Ryan on the team because he can kill penalties and is a right shot center that wins almost 56% of his draws. When in the defensive zone, win a faceoff is important. Since you mention the numbers, he put up 10 goals, 22 pts playing with 4th liners while not playing a lot.
I have Janmark on the team because he skates really well, plays wing or center, has a little size and has experience killing penalties.
I have Foegele on the team (assuming he isn't traded) because he has some size, skates well, forechecks well, did kill penalties in Carolina, a good PK team and was able to put up 12 goals while not getting to play with anyone but bottom 6 guys and not playing a ton.

The only guy that doesn't skate that well is Ryan. So if Gagner can out skate Ryan as well as out face off Ryan, then sure give Gagner his spot. If he can't, I am going to play Ryan on the 4th line because if that line gets caught on an icing or he's out on the PK or you need a center late in the game on the right side to win you a draw to preserve a win, I am going to take the career 55.5% faceoff guy who was 55.88 last year over the career vs Gagner who's a career 45.6 and was only 46.7 last year.

I would much rather they that guys that skate better than Gagner but if Gagner is cool to come in on a PTO and he beats out Shore or whoever else to be an extra forward, I have no issue with that. But I would not give him a contract right now.


First off, while he may not be Connor McDavid, Gagner hasn't ever been a total slug on the ice. There's these weird narratives that people trot out like this that I'll never quite understand. It's not like he looks like he's skating in quicksand out there or anything.

Secondly, the archaic belief that points aren't important for fourth liners is just flat out wrong. If you have a fourth line that only is going to contribute, 20-25 goals in a season, then they had better allow virtually nothing against, because otherwise they are a net liability. The only thing that truly matters to winning hockey games is goal differential, so if you have a line that's a black hole of suck when it comes to goals for/against, then it doesn't matter if they hit, and they're gritty, and they skate well, and they kill penalties, and they're willing to fight, and they are character guys, and they're great in the room and they bring so many intangibles...because ultimately they are costing you hockey games if they're outscored by the opposition.

Points is critical. Outscoring is critical.

Gagner was among the best on Detroit at that last year, as well as their best option on the penalty kill. He scored 29 even strength points playing 10 even strength minutes a night on a dreadful team. All that is valuable. More valuable than playing a slightly faster guy who scores a lot less.

To compare Janmark and Gagner - Janmark played less PK minutes - he was a secondary option (5th among Vegas forwards in PKTOI/G last year) compared to Gagner, who played twice as much per game, and was the top option for Detroit.

Janmark was +3 to Gagner's -4, but when you look at that on a team-relative basis, Janmark is 18th on a decent Vegas team, while Gagner is tied for second best on his terrible squad.

Points is almost a wash since Gagner played more games, but Gagner produced at that rate despite playing a couple minutes less per game at even strength. He also produced shots at a much greater rate (132-89), which is meaningful too. More shots means more opportunities to score, especially when you consider that Gagner's doing it in less time on ice.

For what it's worth, while it won't surprise me to see Holloway finish the season on the Oilers, I don't think he'll start the year with the big squad. I would bet money he's in Bakersfield when camp breaks, possibly the last cut.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811261 is a reply to message #811260 ]
Tue, 16 August 2022 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 15:42

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 09:46

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.


I'm curious who you'd prefer to have on the fourth line rather than Gagner. Is Devin Shore (11 points last year) your guy? Warren Foegele (26 pts)? Derek Ryan (22 pts)? Are you a huge fan of the Jannmark (26 pts) signing? You really don't think that Gagner would slot in above ANY of those guys?!?!



You keep banging on me for points. I haven't gone back to count my responses but this will be the 3rd or 4th time I will say the same thing. Maybe it sinks in this time for you. As a 4th liner, I am looking for a guys who bring speed, preferably some size if possible, not be a defensive disaster, be nice if they could kill penalties, be nice if they could win faceoffs. Scoring 25+ pits is WAY down on my list. If they get their, great, if they don't 15-20 is just fine. Anyone on the 4th line isn't going to play more than 10 mins tops.

If nothing changes with the forwards, these are the 12 I see on the team. McD, Leon, Kane, Hyman, JP, Yamo, Nuge, McLeod, Janmark, Foegele, Ryan and Holloway.

I have Holloway on the team because they could use his combination of size, speed and skill and he is cheap. They need a few cheap guys.

I have Ryan on the team because he can kill penalties and is a right shot center that wins almost 56% of his draws. When in the defensive zone, win a faceoff is important. Since you mention the numbers, he put up 10 goals, 22 pts playing with 4th liners while not playing a lot.
I have Janmark on the team because he skates really well, plays wing or center, has a little size and has experience killing penalties.
I have Foegele on the team (assuming he isn't traded) because he has some size, skates well, forechecks well, did kill penalties in Carolina, a good PK team and was able to put up 12 goals while not getting to play with anyone but bottom 6 guys and not playing a ton.

The only guy that doesn't skate that well is Ryan. So if Gagner can out skate Ryan as well as out face off Ryan, then sure give Gagner his spot. If he can't, I am going to play Ryan on the 4th line because if that line gets caught on an icing or he's out on the PK or you need a center late in the game on the right side to win you a draw to preserve a win, I am going to take the career 55.5% faceoff guy who was 55.88 last year over the career vs Gagner who's a career 45.6 and was only 46.7 last year.

I would much rather they that guys that skate better than Gagner but if Gagner is cool to come in on a PTO and he beats out Shore or whoever else to be an extra forward, I have no issue with that. But I would not give him a contract right now.


First off, while he may not be Connor McDavid, Gagner hasn't ever been a total slug on the ice. There's these weird narratives that people trot out like this that I'll never quite understand. It's not like he looks like he's skating in quicksand out there or anything.

Secondly, the archaic belief that points aren't important for fourth liners is just flat out wrong. If you have a fourth line that only is going to contribute, 20-25 goals in a season, then they had better allow virtually nothing against, because otherwise they are a net liability. The only thing that truly matters to winning hockey games is goal differential, so if you have a line that's a black hole of suck when it comes to goals for/against, then it doesn't matter if they hit, and they're gritty, and they skate well, and they kill penalties, and they're willing to fight, and they are character guys, and they're great in the room and they bring so many intangibles...because ultimately they are costing you hockey games if they're outscored by the opposition.

Points is critical. Outscoring is critical.

Gagner was among the best on Detroit at that last year, as well as their best option on the penalty kill. He scored 29 even strength points playing 10 even strength minutes a night on a dreadful team. All that is valuable. More valuable than playing a slightly faster guy who scores a lot less.

To compare Janmark and Gagner - Janmark played less PK minutes - he was a secondary option (5th among Vegas forwards in PKTOI/G last year) compared to Gagner, who played twice as much per game, and was the top option for Detroit.

Janmark was +3 to Gagner's -4, but when you look at that on a team-relative basis, Janmark is 18th on a decent Vegas team, while Gagner is tied for second best on his terrible squad.

Points is almost a wash since Gagner played more games, but Gagner produced at that rate despite playing a couple minutes less per game at even strength. He also produced shots at a much greater rate (132-89), which is meaningful too. More shots means more opportunities to score, especially when you consider that Gagner's doing it in less time on ice.

For what it's worth, while it won't surprise me to see Holloway finish the season on the Oilers, I don't think he'll start the year with the big squad. I would bet money he's in Bakersfield when camp breaks, possibly the last cut.


He's big, he can skate and shoot! What's not to like!?

Said like 20 times in the last half decade about players that have nothing going on between their ears that accomplish nothing here.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811263 is a reply to message #811260 ]
Tue, 16 August 2022 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 15:42

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 09:46

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 16:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00


I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Maybe read up on Gagner's season last year then. He had pretty elite production for a 4th liner - you won't find a lot of 30+ point guys among players playing only 10 ES minutes per night - and he was the most-used penalty killer on the team, so coach thought he was the best option when short-handed too.

I don't know what you're really hoping he excels at other than scoring and keeping the puck out of his own net.

I am not interested in bringing in Oilers retreads who serve no purpose other than allowing people to pull out their Gagner jersey's again. You can disagree all you want with me but the main reason some fans want him back is they like the person. The Oilers sucked when he was hear, Sam was a good guy during that time, now that the Oilers are good, they want him back so Sam can feel what it's like to have success in an Oilers jersey.

If Gagner wants to come in on a PTO and he outright wins a job and is heads and shoulders better than other guys, I won't be mad if they offer him a deal but I would not sign him right now. He does not meet the needs of the Oilers in my opinion.
Could Gagner come to the Oilers, play on their 4th line, and in maybe 60% of the game score the Oilers what he did the last time he was here? 5-7 goals, 15-20 pts? Maybe. Is he going to produce as much like he did on a crappy wings team where he got almost 14 mins a night? I highly doubt that. Gagner might be lucky to get 10 mins a night.

Did he play on the PK last year? He did. The Wings were 32nd on the PK! Was it Gagner's fault, I doubt it was all his but am I going to put Gagner on the PK when he's coming from the 32nd ranked PK? Hell no.

The Avs are the cup champs, the Oilers need to get past them. To do that, they need as many skilled, fast guys preferably with a little size in the bottom 6. When I say size, this isn't me going back in time looking for goons. If I have a choice between big, skilled guys vs small skilled guys, I will talk the bigger guy every time. Does Gagner bring speed or size? No he does not.


I'm curious who you'd prefer to have on the fourth line rather than Gagner. Is Devin Shore (11 points last year) your guy? Warren Foegele (26 pts)? Derek Ryan (22 pts)? Are you a huge fan of the Jannmark (26 pts) signing? You really don't think that Gagner would slot in above ANY of those guys?!?!



You keep banging on me for points. I haven't gone back to count my responses but this will be the 3rd or 4th time I will say the same thing. Maybe it sinks in this time for you. As a 4th liner, I am looking for a guys who bring speed, preferably some size if possible, not be a defensive disaster, be nice if they could kill penalties, be nice if they could win faceoffs. Scoring 25+ pits is WAY down on my list. If they get their, great, if they don't 15-20 is just fine. Anyone on the 4th line isn't going to play more than 10 mins tops.

If nothing changes with the forwards, these are the 12 I see on the team. McD, Leon, Kane, Hyman, JP, Yamo, Nuge, McLeod, Janmark, Foegele, Ryan and Holloway.

I have Holloway on the team because they could use his combination of size, speed and skill and he is cheap. They need a few cheap guys.

I have Ryan on the team because he can kill penalties and is a right shot center that wins almost 56% of his draws. When in the defensive zone, win a faceoff is important. Since you mention the numbers, he put up 10 goals, 22 pts playing with 4th liners while not playing a lot.
I have Janmark on the team because he skates really well, plays wing or center, has a little size and has experience killing penalties.
I have Foegele on the team (assuming he isn't traded) because he has some size, skates well, forechecks well, did kill penalties in Carolina, a good PK team and was able to put up 12 goals while not getting to play with anyone but bottom 6 guys and not playing a ton.

The only guy that doesn't skate that well is Ryan. So if Gagner can out skate Ryan as well as out face off Ryan, then sure give Gagner his spot. If he can't, I am going to play Ryan on the 4th line because if that line gets caught on an icing or he's out on the PK or you need a center late in the game on the right side to win you a draw to preserve a win, I am going to take the career 55.5% faceoff guy who was 55.88 last year over the career vs Gagner who's a career 45.6 and was only 46.7 last year.

I would much rather they that guys that skate better than Gagner but if Gagner is cool to come in on a PTO and he beats out Shore or whoever else to be an extra forward, I have no issue with that. But I would not give him a contract right now.


First off, while he may not be Connor McDavid, Gagner hasn't ever been a total slug on the ice. There's these weird narratives that people trot out like this that I'll never quite understand. It's not like he looks like he's skating in quicksand out there or anything.

Secondly, the archaic belief that points aren't important for fourth liners is just flat out wrong. If you have a fourth line that only is going to contribute, 20-25 goals in a season, then they had better allow virtually nothing against, because otherwise they are a net liability. The only thing that truly matters to winning hockey games is goal differential, so if you have a line that's a black hole of suck when it comes to goals for/against, then it doesn't matter if they hit, and they're gritty, and they skate well, and they kill penalties, and they're willing to fight, and they are character guys, and they're great in the room and they bring so many intangibles...because ultimately they are costing you hockey games if they're outscored by the opposition.

Points is critical. Outscoring is critical.

Gagner was among the best on Detroit at that last year, as well as their best option on the penalty kill. He scored 29 even strength points playing 10 even strength minutes a night on a dreadful team. All that is valuable. More valuable than playing a slightly faster guy who scores a lot less.

To compare Janmark and Gagner - Janmark played less PK minutes - he was a secondary option (5th among Vegas forwards in PKTOI/G last year) compared to Gagner, who played twice as much per game, and was the top option for Detroit.

Janmark was +3 to Gagner's -4, but when you look at that on a team-relative basis, Janmark is 18th on a decent Vegas team, while Gagner is tied for second best on his terrible squad.

Points is almost a wash since Gagner played more games, but Gagner produced at that rate despite playing a couple minutes less per game at even strength. He also produced shots at a much greater rate (132-89), which is meaningful too. More shots means more opportunities to score, especially when you consider that Gagner's doing it in less time on ice.

For what it's worth, while it won't surprise me to see Holloway finish the season on the Oilers, I don't think he'll start the year with the big squad. I would bet money he's in Bakersfield when camp breaks, possibly the last cut.

I am not disagreeing with you one bit that points don't have value for a 4th line. They do. You can't have your 4th line putting up zeros all season. They need to contribute something. But you referenced several players and their points making the case Gagner out scored them. He did. I am not disputing that but I am simply saying for me at least, the fact he outscored those players on Detroit isn't as big of a factor for me. He played over 13 1/2 mins a night in Detroit. He's not going to get that icetime in Edmonton. 4th liners if they kill some penalties might get 10-11 mins most nights, probably less if they don't.

I take offense to being called archaic because I don't think in a discussion it's necessary to insult a person because my opinion is different. That being said, to your point, you mention expecting 25 goals for an entire 4th line is "archaic thinking". 25 goals is every guy on your 4th line having 8 or more goals. I don't think it's realistic to think your entire 4th line is putting up double digits in goals a piece. The Avs, cup champs, game 6 bottom 6 were:
Cogs 4 goals, Helm 7 goals, O'Connor 8 goals.
Compfer 18 goals, Sturm 9 goals, Newhook, 13 goals.

So their 4th line had 19 regular season goals. 3rd line had 40 goals. 4 out of 6 of the bottom 6 had less than 10 goals. So you are telling me your 4th line needs to each score more double digits in goals? HOW is that right? How many teams have their 4th line ALL with double digits in goals. I highly doubt there is very many.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811264 is a reply to message #811263 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 16:29


I am not disagreeing with you one bit that points don't have value for a 4th line. They do. You can't have your 4th line putting up zeros all season. They need to contribute something. But you referenced several players and their points making the case Gagner out scored them. He did. I am not disputing that but I am simply saying for me at least, the fact he outscored those players on Detroit isn't as big of a factor for me. He played over 13 1/2 mins a night in Detroit. He's not going to get that icetime in Edmonton. 4th liners if they kill some penalties might get 10-11 mins most nights, probably less if they don't.

I take offense to being called archaic because I don't think in a discussion it's necessary to insult a person because my opinion is different. That being said, to your point, you mention expecting 25 goals for an entire 4th line is "archaic thinking". 25 goals is every guy on your 4th line having 8 or more goals. I don't think it's realistic to think your entire 4th line is putting up double digits in goals a piece. The Avs, cup champs, game 6 bottom 6 were:
Cogs 4 goals, Helm 7 goals, O'Connor 8 goals.
Compfer 18 goals, Sturm 9 goals, Newhook, 13 goals.

So their 4th line had 19 regular season goals. 3rd line had 40 goals. 4 out of 6 of the bottom 6 had less than 10 goals. So you are telling me your 4th line needs to each score more double digits in goals? HOW is that right? How many teams have their 4th line ALL with double digits in goals. I highly doubt there is very many.


A) Calling an idea archaic is not the same as calling you archaic.

B) Colorado's fourth line isn't very good. It's not a strength of their team. They do have phenomenal defence, which helps make up for their lack of a strong fourth line. Just because a team wins the Cup doesn't mean that you should emulate every element.

If the Oilers are close to a team like the Avalanche, and it's a saw-off on the offence from the top lines, having a fourth line that can outscore the enemy could be a difference maker. Our defence isn't going to be as strong. We don't have a Makar, and their bottom pairing is likely to be head and shoulders above ours - especially if we have Barrie there still. We need another edge and fourth line might help.

C) Gagner played 10:37 even strength time per game. The extra is mostly SH time. That was 13th among Detroit forwards for the average time on ice per game (excluding one outlier who only played 2 games). Where would that put him on the Oilers? 11th on the team (that's fourth line by depth chart). Here's the list of people around him:

Foegele - 11:54
Kassian - 11:27
McLeod - 10:52
Gagner - 10:37
Brassard - 9:49
Ryan - 9:38
Shore - 8:24
Benson - 8:24

Gagner might lose some short-handed time with the Oilers, where he might not be as much of the go-to guy. His 2:22 per game would rank him first on the Oilers, as it did on the Red Wings, ahead of Nuge's 2:01 by a mile. Hyman at 1:47 is the second most used penalty killer, as the Oilers preferred to spread out the PK a little more evenly with 9 guys over a minute (albeit including Archibald and Malone who both played only 8 games). By comparison, the Red Wings only had 6 guys over a minute per game. Worth noting, Pius Suter was the second most used penalty killer in Detroit and he was at 1:42. Less than Nuge, Hyman and Ryan on the Oilers. Their reliance on Gagner on the PK was MASSIVE.

Gagner losing penalty kill isn't going to impact his scoring. He had a single PK point, compared to 29 ES points (and one PP point). He was scoring at a much greater rate than our depth players while getting the same or less opportunity.

He also shot at a much much greater rate than all those guys above. He's about 1.5 shots per game. Mcleod, Brassard, Ryan and Kassian all clock in at close to a shot a game, the rest of them significantly less.

I think it's absolutely bonkers that fans of a team that played Turris, Sceviour, Perlini, Benson, Shore and Kassian all over 22 games each last year (some with many more) thinks that the Oilers couldn't use a guy like Sam Gagner on a cheap deal.

Maybe you are a closet Benson fan after all!

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811266 is a reply to message #811264 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Wed, 17 August 2022 00:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 August 2022 16:29


I am not disagreeing with you one bit that points don't have value for a 4th line. They do. You can't have your 4th line putting up zeros all season. They need to contribute something. But you referenced several players and their points making the case Gagner out scored them. He did. I am not disputing that but I am simply saying for me at least, the fact he outscored those players on Detroit isn't as big of a factor for me. He played over 13 1/2 mins a night in Detroit. He's not going to get that icetime in Edmonton. 4th liners if they kill some penalties might get 10-11 mins most nights, probably less if they don't.

I take offense to being called archaic because I don't think in a discussion it's necessary to insult a person because my opinion is different. That being said, to your point, you mention expecting 25 goals for an entire 4th line is "archaic thinking". 25 goals is every guy on your 4th line having 8 or more goals. I don't think it's realistic to think your entire 4th line is putting up double digits in goals a piece. The Avs, cup champs, game 6 bottom 6 were:
Cogs 4 goals, Helm 7 goals, O'Connor 8 goals.
Compfer 18 goals, Sturm 9 goals, Newhook, 13 goals.

So their 4th line had 19 regular season goals. 3rd line had 40 goals. 4 out of 6 of the bottom 6 had less than 10 goals. So you are telling me your 4th line needs to each score more double digits in goals? HOW is that right? How many teams have their 4th line ALL with double digits in goals. I highly doubt there is very many.


A) Calling an idea archaic is not the same as calling you archaic.

B) Colorado's fourth line isn't very good. It's not a strength of their team. They do have phenomenal defence, which helps make up for their lack of a strong fourth line. Just because a team wins the Cup doesn't mean that you should emulate every element.

If the Oilers are close to a team like the Avalanche, and it's a saw-off on the offence from the top lines, having a fourth line that can outscore the enemy could be a difference maker. Our defence isn't going to be as strong. We don't have a Makar, and their bottom pairing is likely to be head and shoulders above ours - especially if we have Barrie there still. We need another edge and fourth line might help.

C) Gagner played 10:37 even strength time per game. The extra is mostly SH time. That was 13th among Detroit forwards for the average time on ice per game (excluding one outlier who only played 2 games). Where would that put him on the Oilers? 11th on the team (that's fourth line by depth chart). Here's the list of people around him:

Foegele - 11:54
Kassian - 11:27
McLeod - 10:52
Gagner - 10:37
Brassard - 9:49
Ryan - 9:38
Shore - 8:24
Benson - 8:24

Gagner might lose some short-handed time with the Oilers, where he might not be as much of the go-to guy. His 2:22 per game would rank him first on the Oilers, as it did on the Red Wings, ahead of Nuge's 2:01 by a mile. Hyman at 1:47 is the second most used penalty killer, as the Oilers preferred to spread out the PK a little more evenly with 9 guys over a minute (albeit including Archibald and Malone who both played only 8 games). By comparison, the Red Wings only had 6 guys over a minute per game. Worth noting, Pius Suter was the second most used penalty killer in Detroit and he was at 1:42. Less than Nuge, Hyman and Ryan on the Oilers. Their reliance on Gagner on the PK was MASSIVE.

Gagner losing penalty kill isn't going to impact his scoring. He had a single PK point, compared to 29 ES points (and one PP point). He was scoring at a much greater rate than our depth players while getting the same or less opportunity.

He also shot at a much much greater rate than all those guys above. He's about 1.5 shots per game. Mcleod, Brassard, Ryan and Kassian all clock in at close to a shot a game, the rest of them significantly less.

I think it's absolutely bonkers that fans of a team that played Turris, Sceviour, Perlini, Benson, Shore and Kassian all over 22 games each last year (some with many more) thinks that the Oilers couldn't use a guy like Sam Gagner on a cheap deal.

Maybe you are a closet Benson fan after all!


You understand that Detroit was the 25th ranked team in the NHL right? They were 26 pts behind the #8 team in the east and would have been 23 behind the # 8 in the West. So the Wings were not a very good team and when you aren't a very good team that means you lack good players. So when you lack good players, that means other players like Gagner will get more opportunities because there is no one better. So when you throw all the Wings stats at me, time on ice, etc and say "wouldn't you rather have him than guys like..... " and list off a bunch of guys who aren't NHLers that means nothing to me. If the choice is Turris, Sceviour, Perlini, Benson, Shore, all guys who aren't NHLers then of course I would take Gagner over them because personally I like Gagner more and Gagner can most likely contribute more than any of them because none of those guys are NHlers in my books.

I cherry picked the Avs because they would have been deemed the "best" team because they just won the cup. If you don't like their 4th line because it doesn't fit your opinion, fine. You said a 4th line scoring 25 goals is archaic thinking and flat out wrong on my part. 25 goals for the line means each guy would have to score at least 8 goals.What other teams have all the players on their 4th line scoring double digits in goals? When I think of a 4th liner, I thnk of a guy who on a regular basis gets limited icetime

I thought about looking up teams 4th lines from last season but then I remembered according to you, I am always wrong so I decided against doing that and just go right to the all knowing source of all things hockey which is you. So I look forward to you telling me this giant list of NHL teams who have these 4th line with all of them scoring double digits in goals.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811269 is a reply to message #811266 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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Getting so defensive regarding a perceived attack of a matter of opinions is waste of energy RDOF. Sometimes these threads look closer to Twitter than an actually Discussion Board when we take things personally. It was a discussion and not everything is a personal attack. I am willing to bet a warm Brewhouse Light that Gagner is getting a PTO with the Oilers and then we can skip the hypotheticals.

I hope he works out. He is a great story, solid veteran, fan favourite, grey in his beard and has willingly adapted his game to remain in the NHL. The team lost a lot of veteran leadership. Samwise would be a good fit character-wise and hopefully on the 4th line, and special teams.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811277 is a reply to message #811269 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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inverno76 wrote on Wed, 17 August 2022 09:38

Getting so defensive regarding a perceived attack of a matter of opinions is waste of energy RDOF. Sometimes these threads look closer to Twitter than an actually Discussion Board when we take things personally. It was a discussion and not everything is a personal attack. I am willing to bet a warm Brewhouse Light that Gagner is getting a PTO with the Oilers and then we can skip the hypotheticals.

I hope he works out. He is a great story, solid veteran, fan favourite, grey in his beard and has willingly adapted his game to remain in the NHL. The team lost a lot of veteran leadership. Samwise would be a good fit character-wise and hopefully on the 4th line, and special teams.


I like Gagner as a person. If he wants to come in on a PTO, go for it. But I will say it again. I would just prefer the Oilers to be bringing in guys that can skate well to either be on their 4th line or be extra forwards. Last time I checked, skating wasn't Gagner's strong suit when he was young and in his prime so I doubt it's gotten better now that he is 33.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811278 is a reply to message #811277 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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It’ll be up to Gagner to earn a spot. Truthfully I don’t see much competition other than ELC’s.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811279 is a reply to message #811278 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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inverno76 wrote on Wed, 17 August 2022 10:32

It’ll be up to Gagner to earn a spot. Truthfully I don’t see much competition other than ELC’s.


Everyone sleeping on Zac Rinaldo being available. Tough, can skate, hits. Let's get harder to play against.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811280 is a reply to message #811279 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Mad Jesse Boulerice vibes there.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811296 is a reply to message #811219 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Gagner would be a better addition, at a decent price, than 99% of the bottom 6 we've had over the last 30 years. The guy thinks the game better than almost anyone on the ice, he would actually WANT to be here, and he still plays pretty well (given his numbers last season). I'd bring him in for 1m on a 1yr contract or 1.8m for 2 years. I would prefer a 1 year contract though.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 August 2022 22:24]

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 Re: Sam Gagner, third time's a charm? [message #811297 is a reply to message #811231 ]
Wed, 17 August 2022 22:25 Go to previous message
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:09

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 13:00

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 09:55

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 15 August 2022 08:30

Please no to Gagner.

I really like Gagner, he's a good dude and when the Oilers were a lousy team he did his best for the Oilers. But the Oilers are/should be going into their championship window so they should be bringing in guys that address needs/shore up their depth. Can Gagner provide some scoring depth in the bottom 6? Maybe but I don't think the Oilers are going to lack scoring. In my opinion, if they are going to bring in another depth forward, that guy should have some combination of speed, some size, maybe physical play, good on the forecheck, PK ability, win some faceoffs. Of course a guy on your 4th line needs to have some skill and chip in the odd goal here and there but scoring is down on the list. I look at what Gagner does well still and none of what I listed are in his skillset.


The belief that scoring isn't that important for fourth liners is completely flawed. The whole point of the game is to outscore the other team, so the goal for fourth liners should still be to outscore their opponents while they are on the ice.

One of the issues the Oilers have had over the last decade is that they don't seem to understand this, and prefer to try to bring in players who are simply placeholders in order to give the stars a chance to rest. The problem with this philosophy is that it has consistently given the team a hole that the best players of the team have to drag them out of, because guys like Josh Archibald or Gaetan Haas or Lennart Petrell or Darcy Hordichuk, etc. get buried on goals against. Being a semi-decent penalty killer isn't enough to make players like that worth while, because even with limited numbers of shifts, their even strength time is greater than the time on the ice while penalty killing - and a goal scored against is just as lethal.

Archibald is a great case study. He played just over 9 minutes a game in in 13 games this post-season, 122 minutes in total. 13 of those minutes were on the penalty kill where he was a secondary option for Woodcroft. He hit every chance he had - I'd suggest that he sacrificed position and chance at puck control in favour of big hits repeatedly. Only Brad Malone hit with more frequency in his short time on the ice. He had one assist, and was -5 because every time he was on the ice, the other team had better players there and they were able to make the Oilers pay for the mistake of sending him over the boards.

Gagner is not the same player he was when he left here. As he's gotten older, he has changed his game. He was playing as a fourth liner in Detroit - his 10:17 ESTOI per game puts him 12th among Detroit forwards playing 20 or more games. He was a primary penalty killer though. He was out for 2:22 per game when a man short - #1 among Detroit's forwards. He also was a depth option on the PP - the 10th most used forward on the team, so basically filling in when someone was injured.

Despite his limited usage, Gagner scored 13-18-31 in 81 games. Tied for 7th in goals, fifth in assists, fifth in points and fifth in ES scoring (29). On a dreadful Detroit team, he was tied for second in +/- at -4. If anyone is counting, that's one mark better in 81 games on a bad team than Archibald managed in 13 games on a Semi-Finalist team in the playoffs.

As for position, he plays wing now as much as he plays center, so winning draws isn't as critical. It wasn't ever a strength, and I don't think you sign him for his faceoffs. He can step in to the circle if he needs to, nothing more.

I am totally happy to see the team put Phil Kessel on the third or fourth line, especially if he's on a bargain contract, because I believe he can likely outplay other third and fourth liners and outscore in that role. Gagner has proven that he can do that so he may be a better option as a fourth liner. Honestly, I'd take them both in a second and happily jettison Devon Shore and Warren Foegele. I mean, we spent $1.25MM on Matthias Janmark earlier this summer. I'd have either Gagner or Kessel on a deal like that happily.



I am not interested in adding any players in the Oilers bottom 6 that can't skate well unless they are elite at something. If they are going to add a player that can't fly, then I would much rather they give a league minimum contract to Kessel over Gagner. Kessel put up 52 pts playing on an absolute trash team made up of mostly AHLers. That's impressive to me.


Think you want Gags too if you get Kessel and intend to play him in the bottom 6. Zero chance that Shore is setting up Kessel for shots. Gags can still make plays. Those 2 guys would probably feast on crappy competition.

Putting Gags production last year in perspective, only 5 oilers forwards had more even strength points as him. Only 4 regular Oilers forwards had more even strength points per 60 minutes. Gags had a pretty good season as a depth guy in Detroit.

3M = Gags + Kessel + Subban. DO IT! icon_lol



All 3 for 3m...what a steal and I think a key piece to make us the team that takes a run at the finals.

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