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Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724459]	Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724460 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:07

Oscargasm
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Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

Same song and dance we've heard before, just in different terms. Though to come from an Oilers ambassador such as Ference, a past Captain and area fitness legend, these are quite damning.

That's the one thing that sure seems different under Hitch. Toe drags don't seem to be a determining factor in ice-time icon_wink

icon_wink

Edit: I do agree that we as fans, and those in the media, tend to have a short leash with players who on them get placed high expectations such as Schultz. Not to "make excuses" but Oil Country is a hockey-crazed market and lets be frank, what else is really here for us? Eskimos? CFL football is a time filler between NHL Playoffs and the start of the NHL Season and NFL football. Yes, I am not in Edmonton, I'm in Sask, but my wife is from Edmonton and I had lived there for a few years before returning to Sask.

Not to mention the DoD, when we were sold HOPE that this youth movement was the answer to get back to the playoffs and glory.

If you think about it... Lowe and MacT may have sensed the direction the NHL was going before anyone else as they started the youth/speed game. Makes perfect sense as to why they're still around now.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:17]

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724462 is a reply to message #724460 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:07

Same song and dance we've heard before, just in different terms. Though to come from an Oilers ambassador such as Ference, a past Captain and area fitness legend, these are quite damning.

That's the one thing that sure seems different under Hitch. Toe drags don't seem to be a determining factor in ice-time icon_wink

icon_wink

Edit: I do agree that we as fans, and those in the media, tend to have a short leash with players who on them get placed high expectations such as Schultz. Not to "make excuses" but Oil Country is a hockey-crazed market and lets be frank, what else is really here for us? Eskimos? CFL football is a time filler between NHL Playoffs and the start of the NHL Season and NFL football. Yes, I am not in Edmonton, I'm in Sask, but my wife is from Edmonton and I had lived there for a few years before returning to Sask.

Not to mention the DoD, when we were sold HOPE that this youth movement was the answer to get back to the playoffs and glory.

If you think about it... Lowe and MacT may have sensed the direction the NHL was going before anyone else as they started the youth/speed game. Makes perfect sense as to why they're still around now.

Org also does a terrible job of defending their players, or even identifying the guys that are of value to them. MacT's challenge contract to Petry remains one of his most idiotic moves as GM. McLellan basically said to the media that Schultz needs to get the hell of the team after a game, right before he was traded. I think management likes the fans/media homing in on players and picking scapegoats to keep the focus off them. They never speak up or try to insulate those players, they throw them to the wolves and even drop some hints to the media what they don't like about certain players.

In the end, this team culture ended up exactly how you would expect it to when management hands the keys to a bunch of 20 year olds and puts no value on having good quality, still able to contribute at a high level vets on the team. And they make it even worse tossing a greenhorn like Eakins into the mix when they know this dysfunction exists. Lol, they had a guy that was known around the world as a motivator and someone that could get buy in from players in many walks of life in Krueger and they tossed him into the trash for Eakins. And every one of those dummies in charge then are still here, woohoo.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724463 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Steve
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724464 is a reply to message #724463 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:38

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7661
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

I can't blame a 20 year old for acting like a 20 year old. I blame the 50 year old bosses, who were trying to relive their glory days for allowing the behavior.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724465 is a reply to message #724464 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

CrusaderPi
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Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724466 is a reply to message #724465 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started. They got the media back in line very quickly when they started helping the cause. Spector almost got his career derailed.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724467 is a reply to message #724466 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7661
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724468 is a reply to message #724467 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:51

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Nope, not different at all, I was agreeing. The fans here, like most people, grab onto the ideas that are repeated to them. Especially about the simple things in life like sports. Present them simple ideas of why things are going wrong and do it enough, it will take hold with the majority. And the Oilers org has been happy to sit back and let that stuff happen to their players. Probably because they are all doing the same thing, blaming individuals for the failings of the team. We've traded our share of good players on that premise.

What choice does the org have though? If they are all trying to save their jobs, and they have been lingering as long as they have, they need to keep a steady flow of scapegoats to keep the targets off themselves. We have a very unique situation in Edmonton. Not many orgs have a bunch of guys that are allowed to fail forever running the team that aren't the owners of the team.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:53]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724469 is a reply to message #724468 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:01

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7661
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:51

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Nope, not different at all, I was agreeing. The fans here, like most people, grab onto the ideas that are repeated to them. Especially about the simple things in life like sports. Present them simple ideas of why things are going wrong and do it enough, it will take hold with the majority. And the Oilers org has been happy to sit back and let that stuff happen to their players. Probably because they are all doing the same thing, blaming individuals for the failings of the team. We've traded our share of good players on that premise.

What choice does the org have though? If they are all trying to save their jobs, and they have been lingering as long as they have, they need to keep a steady flow of scapegoats to keep the targets off themselves. We have a very unique situation in Edmonton. Not many orgs have a bunch of guys that are allowed to fail forever running the team that aren't the owners of the team.

Then I withdraw my comment.

To me, this is just another damn indictment of the Oilers organization failing to hold themselves accountable.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724470 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18

NetBOG
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Registered: January 2006
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Petry, Schultz, Hall, Eberle. All had YEARS to prove their worth to the Oilers. All were perennial losers. Not bad reporting, bad play. Over and over and over and over again.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724471 is a reply to message #724470 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:28

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7661
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18

Petry, Schultz, Hall, Eberle. All had YEARS to prove their worth to the Oilers. All were perennial losers. Not bad reporting, bad play. Over and over and over and over again.

And the bad play was caused by...? I don't think they're root cause of the last 18 years of declining and miserable hockey.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724472 is a reply to message #724471 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3753
Registered: January 2016

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So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724473 is a reply to message #724469 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:55

Oscargasm
Messages: 5729
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:01

To me, this is just another damn indictment of the Oilers organization failing to hold themselves accountable.

It all started from the moment Lowe made a big spectacle of Hall wearing number 4. They, Lowe a co., essentially doomed us. Then they(Lowe and co.) "realized" it didn't work, they slithered into the shadowy corners while Bobby Nicks came in, won the Golden Flow, er uh, Golden Ticket in the McDavid Lottery followed by Pete and the Saskatchewan Provincial Coaching Team coming in.

Problem is, those responsible for the culture are still employed and still a part of hockey ops. It wasn't Taylor Hall's fault. It wasn't Jordan Eberle's fault. It wasn't Justin Schultz fault. Sure they were the "faces" of HOPE, but they were allowed to do what they did because of the culture Lowe endorsed. It is solely on Kevin Lowe, Craig MacTavish and ultimately Darryl Katz for the culture that was aloud to breed within the Oilers hockey team.

Media plays a large part in the fan mentality.

Bad timing on this though. Just when Hitch is getting the team playing as a TEAM and we experience an uptick on the MOGA metre.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724474 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724475 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 15:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724476 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

Oscargasm
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:44

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

They were clearly given the green light to do as they wish and not play a mature game. There was no accountability directed in the appropriate direction as anyone who spoke out about the culture was shunned by Lowe and co. via Propaganda Minister Stauffer.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724478 is a reply to message #724474 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3753
Registered: January 2016

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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724479 is a reply to message #724474 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

McDavid97
Messages: 97
Registered: July 2007

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

Exactly this. Yes it's on the players for some of that stuff, but it's also on management / coaching to build the culture they want reflective of this organization.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724480 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:02

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

Who was telling them though? Greenhorn Eakins who didn't have a clue and was trying to implement idiotic systems that had no hope to work? And who seemed to only want to hold Yak accountable for whatever reason. It's extra weird to hear this considering the only guy Eakins seemed to focus on was Yak...did he think punishing Yak was gonna get the rest of the team in line? lol.

Was Ference gonna tell these kids what is what? The guy that is struggling to just keep up during game time is gonna be the alpha and beat all these kids into submission?

There was no one there. Management was busy hiding, making sure their jobs were secure and any anti-Lowe billboards were confiscated.

Scorched earth rebuilds clearly do not work. We were a great lesson for the rest of the league.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724481 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:09

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

If I'm the middle manager (coach)? As the guy that has nominal control of the team, I reward the good behavior I want and correct the behavior I don't want. The problem is if your upper management executive (GM / POHO / Owner) doesn't allow you to do your job. Then you're sunk.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724482 is a reply to message #724475 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:12

RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

I agree you need to have vets in place to show them the way BUT the young player has to be willing to listen too. Based on all the talk out there from players who were with him and even how when he went to New Jersey that first year, his new GM and coach had to sit Hall down and tell him he had to change, I do not get the sense that at the time Hall was willing to listen.

I think it probably came down to a combination of stubborn guys like Hall not willing to listen to anyone and wanting to do his thing but also not having the right vets in place. Everyone says you have to deal with young people these days way differently. You can't be too hard on them so if you have a bunch of old school vets telling these kids what to do, they won't listen.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724483 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:14

Oscargasm
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:59

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

You don't enable it. You have the appropriate management upstairs and leadership in the locker room. You don't paint the picture as Taylor Hall as the new Mark Messier and he's going to bring us back to glory. You don't paint Schultz as the new Paul Coffey.

How do you not do that? Management. You don't employ fools from your glory days who are still clearly earning a pay check based on what they did back in the 80's. You don't collect human hockey cards.

FWIW: I enjoy Wayne being around in the capacity of an Ambassador. Other than that, Lowe and co. should not have been excused and definitely SHOULD NOT be part of the organization after all of this. Sure, Lowe isn't in Hockey Ops. A company I used to work for rebranded and reorganized after a pretty big loss in the Markets, the Director responsible for the mess was 'relieved' in the eyes of the media however the company simply changed his title and he remained in the exact role with the exact input he previously had.

In summary, you don't reward failure.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724484 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:18

CrudeRemarks
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This article would've meant something two years ago. Ference hasn't played in a long time. No surprise he defends Eakins, they were push up and smoothie buddies. Guy probably hates donuts as well. Besides isn't it the captain's job to set the team attitude? I heard Pronger came in and basically did exactly that and they came 1 game short of a Cup win.

All this tells me is Ference has a weak personality. And why does it come out now? Does he have a book in the works?

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724485 is a reply to message #724482 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:18

Kr55
Messages: 9770
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:12

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

I agree you need to have vets in place to show them the way BUT the young player has to be willing to listen too. Based on all the talk out there from players who were with him and even how when he went to New Jersey that first year, his new GM and coach had to sit Hall down and tell him he had to change, I do not get the sense that at the time Hall was willing to listen.

I think it probably came down to a combination of stubborn guys like Hall not willing to listen to anyone and wanting to do his thing but also not having the right vets in place. Everyone says you have to deal with young people these days way differently. You can't be too hard on them so if you have a bunch of old school vets telling these kids what to do, they won't listen.

I would agree too there is a variation among young guys, and we may have been unlucky to get a group that were very prone to that Fresh Prince Will Smith attitude. Like, they are the team, everyone else just needs to not suck and waste our awesome work. How there was a group making fun of the rest of the team trying hard in practice, that's pretty bad if that was true. That's not just being cocky and acting like you are the team, but you are also actively trying to sabotage the contributions of the rest of the group by being a dick.

So, you have youngins like that. Then you get the McDavid's of the league that really are 100% about winning and trying to lead and being a quality teammate and person. If you swapped McDavid and Hall in the order of draft picks we get, this all probably would have played out differently, but still probably ultimately we suck because management has no clue :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724486 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:20

K.McC#24
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

Good coaches can communicate with a broad spectrum of personalities and command respect. Didn't happen for Eakins. Ference took his money and didn't deliver when he was healthy. Guys like Ference were brought in to to provide leadership, Ference was probably more concerned with the team's sustainability and carbon footprint. The rest of this was probably true or mostly true but this is just sucky gossip on Ference's part on my opinion....interesting dishing but yeah....

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724487 is a reply to message #724484 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:21

Oscargasm
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:18

All this tells me is Ference has a weak personality. And why does it come out now? Does he have a book in the works?

Would uh... would you buy and read it?

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724488 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

WhoreableGuy
Messages: 590
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Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724489 is a reply to message #724463 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:46

Jakey
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Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

DING DING DING....We Have a Winner!!!

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724490 is a reply to message #724489 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:52

Kr55
Messages: 9770
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Jakey wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:46

Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

DING DING DING....We Have a Winner!!!

Hall is what he is. Great talent, but closer to a Kessel than a true leader. Kessel can't lead worth a crap, he's just into his own stuff, but he goes out there puts in his time and can dominate games with talent. He's a constant pain in the butt for coaches, but whatever, what did he end up doing, gave the pens the depth they needed for 2 straight cups. Leafs said the same stuff about him, loser, can't do anything when it matters (which never made sense because he was ppg in playoffs for the bruins and leafs). Ends up ppg in 2 straight playoff runs, playing a lot on a 3rd line that slaughtered teams.

The org put all their eggs into hoping Hall was going to be Messier 2.0 for us. Walk in, get the whole team on the same page and lead us to victory. They thought wrong, very wrong, and they sat back for a long time just letting this team turn into a disaster. They are so damn lucky they ended up with McDavid in the end.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 15:59]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724491 is a reply to message #724488 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40

JPro
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WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

Yeah lets stick our head in the sand and pretend this doesn't happen every year.

I think it's time to bring the Lowe billboards back. I'm in for $20!

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724492 is a reply to message #724491 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 16:47

WhoreableGuy
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JPro wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40

WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

Yeah lets stick our head in the sand and pretend this doesn't happen every year.

I think it's time to bring the Lowe billboards back. I'm in for $20!

Look at the names though...Scrivens...Pakarinen? I think the only player I remember that was good for the Oilers and bashed was Sheldon Souray. All the other guys were players that were given all the opportunity to played and didn't do squat.

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724498 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10

Goose
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Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.

Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:

1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%

And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%

And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.

So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.

Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?

Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com

http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;lines=single

ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.

CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.

I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.

And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 19:35]

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724503 is a reply to message #724498 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:24

Kr55
Messages: 9770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Goose wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10

Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.

Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:

1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%

And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%

And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.

So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.

Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?

Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com

http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;lines=single

ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.

CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.

I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.

And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years

Simply needed a better team. It was a bad situation that brought out the worst in almost everyone. I don't doubt Hall is a super dick in many situations. The proof of that is everywhere. But, he's still a useful tool if you want to win hockey games. You just can't expect him to be your vocal leader and someone that is uniting a group off the ice. The OBC had years to figure that out and their answer was to get Ference on his last legs, giving him the C before he played 1 game for the team. And a rookie coach that ended up having no clue to boot.

Team is just dumb in so many ways, but hey, at least we got McDavid from that debacle :) Hopefully we weed out the dummies now before it's too late.

On Ference's contributions. He was what he was, and he said as much in the interview. Just a 4-5 D at best, and not someone that was able to command any respect from the kids because he wasn't able to move the needle for the team. Ference also has a rep as a condescending ass, so I'm doubtful he was that great at trying to convince the kids to chage their ways with how they worked with the rest of the team :)

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 20:27]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724504 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

twilson1111
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

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I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724505 is a reply to message #724504 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:41

twilson1111
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Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

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To me the core of the matter for Ference is this: he won a cup in Boston and thought that would mean he’s a good leader. That was a mistake, and he never realized that his leadership must not have been that good, given the results.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724506 is a reply to message #724504 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 20:48

Kr55
Messages: 9770
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Location: Edmonton

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twilson1111 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

Thing about partying...all the players do it, especially the young guys. That's just part of being young and rich. The Oilers during the glory days were crazy partiers by all accounts. I think Ference may be an outlier a bit here, a bit of a boy scout.

The stuff about being dicks to people in practice for taking practice seriously though, that's a lot worse IMO. But, that's also partially a byproduct of the team being a consistent joke. And this was under Dallas Eakins, specifically Dallas Eakins' 2nd year here drawing from Ference's example of when the boys were partying after a loss, where the wheels came off the season very quickly. Looking down the barrel of season 4 or 5 in a row for the golden boys where it's over by November.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 20:50]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724508 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 21:51

Adam
Messages: 6859
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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I spent a lot of time on the highway today and listened to this podcast as I drove.

Some fascinating things with it, but it all points to management. I do think that Ference had an impossible job, being brought in to teach the young guys to be a professional as a former Stanley Cup winner. He's a lot like Ethan Moreau as captain. You have a guy at the bottom of your roster who doesn't have much of a relationship with the guys who management is tagging as the next great stars of the team. He's preaching that they have to buy in and work hard, but they're accomplishing a hell of a lot more on the ice while partying than he is while busting his ass. It makes it really hard to send the message, especially if there's the feeling that management doesn't have your back.

It was interesting to hear Ference say specifically that players here do not feel like management DOES have their backs. They watch the media and then the fans tear players apart, and they see NOTHING from the GM, the POHO or even the coach protecting them. In fact, they see the opposite sometimes. They see McLellan feeding the fire with Schultz, or MacTavish with Dubnyk or Penner. They see anonymous sources telling stories to the media about players and whispers about attitude as soon as anyone leaves.

It's certainly possible that the Hall/Eberle/Schultz/Nuge group was completely wild and out of hand and that no one could rein them in. It's also quite possible that before that, the Gagner/Cogliano/Nilsson/Gilbert group was also unstoppable forces of partying who cared only about having fun and not about winning. But it seems like an incredible run of bad luck, and if those things are true, then maybe talking about all those players at various points as the untouchable core of the team - while raking hard-working veterans over the coals for not "accepting their secondary roles" was maybe a poor decision.

I think the 80s Oilers did party, but A) it was a different era where it wasn't as hard to win, and B) they still had Sather who laid down the law and wasn't afraid to send serious messages to young players - the most obvious being the demotion of Mark Messier to the AHL after he missed a flight. The management for the last several iterations of the rebuild seemed petrified that to put players in their place would make them ask for a trade. Lowe and Company seemed to think that the kids partying was just boys being boys, and that they couldn't dare to set expectations on them. That had really negative ramifications, just as anointing them the "CORE" and talking about them as a subset different from the rest of the players also killed the team culture.

And the team's management has been MUCH more concerned about their own self-preservation than it is about winning. They may want to win, but they aren't willing to put themselves on the line for it. They're fine with player criticism, because if you believe the players they have are all a bunch of losers, then maybe you are okay with them getting traded, rather than calling for the heads of the guys who've orchestrated the last 18 years of almost constant failure.

I still think it's interesting that you have a writer crucify one of your top players that HE ALMOST CERTAINLY KNOWS IS PLAYING INJURED, and there is not a peep from the organization. Nothing. And then the exact same writer, 18 months later writes a piece critical of management and he's barred from the TV telecast for a game as punishment.

There's of course the easy retort about Ference that he was a bit player who is just sour about the way his career ended, but it's not just Ference. We've had Comrie, Marchant, Chimera, Thoresen, Souray, Gilbert, Belanger, Nick Schultz, O'Sullivan, Smid, Hemsky, Whitney, Bryzgalov, Auvitu, Pakarinen, etc. etc. say unflattering things about this team after they leave it. Some of those guys no doubt contributed to their own issues here, some of their comments were little more than parting shots - but considering how seldom hockey players say anything that's controversial, that's a staggering list.

Anyone who doesn't realize by now that the organization culture is a major issue just has their head in the sand. Kevin Lowe, Craig MacTavish and company have always been in over their heads running a hockey team. They did not have the tools to do it well, and their attempts to protect themselves over the players has been absolutely toxic. The media in this town has enabled them - some out of fear of losing access, some out of friendship to these old players that has made them constantly excuse their inadequacies in management.

The worst part? Nothing has changed. At the end of last year, the management again focused the blame on the players. Chiarelli went out of his way to blame the "94s" on the team for not taking the next step - which only draws extra negative attention on those players. In scrums, McLellan constantly pointed out who was to blame on individual scoring plays night after night.

And when there were questions about management's role in the failure, we had Bob Nicholson come out and defend him - saying that they believed in his plan. Chiarelli said he would make all the same trades over again and he knows they were the right moves for the team!?

I welcome frank remarks from former Oilers, because the curtain needs to be thrown back on this. Ference had to know that he's going to invite a whole lot of invective from the worst of the Oilers fans who will no doubt take to twitter and elsewhere to harass him for voicing these things, but I'm appreciative. Every time someone speaks up, I get a little more hope that eventually a lightbulb will come on with Katz, and he'll realize that he can keep his human doll collection in some other capacity, but they can't run his hockey team any more - because they only ever run it in to the ground.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724509 is a reply to message #724506 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 21:58

Adam
Messages: 6859
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:48

twilson1111 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:36

I think if guys are partying as professional athletes, that’s a bad sign. I’d love to know who he is talking about, but the coach should have put in a curfew or something if it was that bad.
That said Ference comes across as a snippy weasel here, especially given how he was part of the problem in terms of not performing. He does not sound like a good leader to me, given how he blames everyone else.

Thing about partying...all the players do it, especially the young guys. That's just part of being young and rich. The Oilers during the glory days were crazy partiers by all accounts. I think Ference may be an outlier a bit here, a bit of a boy scout.

The stuff about being dicks to people in practice for taking practice seriously though, that's a lot worse IMO. But, that's also partially a byproduct of the team being a consistent joke. And this was under Dallas Eakins, specifically Dallas Eakins' 2nd year here drawing from Ference's example of when the boys were partying after a loss, where the wheels came off the season very quickly. Looking down the barrel of season 4 or 5 in a row for the golden boys where it's over by November.

I do think some of that is being young and rich, and not having the organization set boundaries, or give you any negative consequences if you step outside those boundaries.

I do also think that the fact that Kevin Lowe was coming out after the second season for Hall and Eberle saying that management always intended for the team to suck so they could get a third straight high pick certainly is damaging if you're trying to convince these players to go to the wall every night, even down the stretch in lost seasons. If the organization doesn't seem serious about winning and is perfectly content to flush multiple seasons down the toilet - and even pats themselves on the back for the failure - then you're going to care less and less about the losing after a while.

If you have the management telling the coach to play certain players to "sell hope" rather than to do what he thinks is best for the player development and the path to team success, then you're setting more bad precedents.

Lowetide has said at multiple times that the Oilers brass does certain things because they value other things above winning - and that's going to trickle down.

I have no doubt it was frustrating for Ference...but the Oilers aren't the only team that's had a bunch of young players, and we either are the most unlucky team ever, or we do the worst job handling players. I think it's more likely the latter.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724512 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 22:21

twilson1111
Messages: 106
Registered: October 2010
Location: Calgary

No Cups

Given the systemic and repetitive nature of these problems, I’d concede that management must be to blame. As a manager myself, I’d guess that they’ve equated success in one area with likelihood of success in another (I just had to remove a guy at work due to making that mistake - he went from hero to zero). It’s a horrible mistake to make, because you then need to reverse course on all the recent praise and encouragement you’ve given them and they will not likely take that well, given their expectations of continued success

Famous players do not necessarily make good GMs
Famous players do not necessarily make good coaches
Good pluggers do not necessarily make good captains
Highly skilled youth do not necessarily make good leaders
Past teammates do not necessarily make good management
Family members do not necessarily make good draft picks

In all of these cases, the organization lacks an EYE FOR TALENT. They don’t understand why people are successful in certain roles, and how that might be different depending on the role.

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