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 Speculation » Puljujarvi's Extension
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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809786 is a reply to message #809780 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.



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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809787 is a reply to message #809784 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:53

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:50

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.



The rule is, if a player gets better or matures after leaving the OIlers, it means they never would have done it here.


It's the narrative that has been sold, and I am tired of believing it. If other franchises continually manage their assets and continually make great trades, then why can't we? There is social proof out there that it can be accomplished on a regular basis. Accepting excuses is accepting failure.


An owner that values having friends around more than actual results is just a very severe handicap. Not even getting a generational talent and just slightly below generational talent can make up for it. Gonna need a load of luck still.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809788 is a reply to message #809784 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:53

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:50

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.



The rule is, if a player gets better or matures after leaving the OIlers, it means they never would have done it here.


It's the narrative that has been sold, and I am tired of believing it. If other franchises continually manage their assets and continually make great trades, then why can't we? There is social proof out there that it can be accomplished on a regular basis. Accepting excuses is accepting failure.


It is literally the stupidest narrative ever - and we're going to see that likely in the future with Puljujarvi if he turns in to a really effective player somewhere else: "Well, he's playing second line now and just comfortable in his skin there, as opposed to seeing himself as a top liner in Edmonton so really, what could the Oilers have done? He'd have never been able to do it here, and we did the player a favour by moving him - that was the wakeup call he needed."

It's BS.

The fact is, you should never really need to tell a player he's seen as a third liner and nothing more. That's a stupid thing to even consider. I want my players on all lines to compete for every second of ice-time, so I make it simply a meritocracy, where if you're the best winger on the team? You have the potential to move up. That's not going to flip every game - if you have a hot streak and the guy on the top line is on a cold streak, I'm not necessarily pushing you up immediately, but over time, if you show you're the better option? Then you'll get more ice time.

If you can't explain to a player why other players are in front of him on the depth chart, then that's a failure on the coaching or management. If you can't explain the importance of two-way play? That's again a failure. If you can't explain why you'd like to play someone on the wing as opposed to center? That, once again, is a failure. The fact is, there just haven't been a lot of guys on the elite teams in the league who they flush and say "we just couldn't reach him about the role that we wanted him to play, so we traded him for virtually nothing, only to see someone else immediately unlock that potential." The Oilers? We've said a lot more than most. Maybe that's one of the reasons our media guys cheer so hard against any player who leaves.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809789 is a reply to message #809785 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 10:56

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:51

sometimes a message like that can come from an agent too.

"my talent is top 6 quality, will be played as such and paid as such' etc etc.




And then the management team says, wellll, you are on the cusp, but not quite there. We can see that you are approaching, but haven't broke out yet. How about a bridge deal to bet on yourself, or a longer term deal with security and a we meet in the middle with the salary.

It really seems like we are told everything is either black or white, when it is never truly the case.



Ya, Cogliano is an interesting case in that his production didn't really drop when he went to Anaheim despite him taking on a "3rd line checking" role. And he actually saw his 5x5 minutes increase. In his 4 seasons with the Oilers he averaged 949 5x5 minutes (and played 82 games each season). In his first 4 full seasons with the Ducks (excluding the lockout year, I didn't feel like pro-rating it), he averaged 1,009 5x5 minutes (again in playing 82 games each year).

Clearly there was a way to manage that transition without alienating the player and making him feel unworthy. But the Oilers are so bad at thinking outside the box.

Again, I can easily see something similar playing out with Puljujarvi, assuming they don't just trade him in the next few days. They don't feel like he's a top 6 forward, so they drop him down to 11 minutes a night, while McDavid and Draisaitl continue to play a huge number of minutes when the numbers show that Puljujarvi could be effective even if playing away from McDrai (with the added benefit of giving them a bit more rest). Puljujarvi's confidence and numbers tank and we start this downward spiral and eventually flush him for a 2nd round pick and the Oilers media pats everyone on the back for getting rid of a guy that was a bit weird and didn't really fit in anyways.

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2022 12:32]

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809790 is a reply to message #809786 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndersonRules is currently offline AndersonRules
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If those are my only two options, then keeping the player and forcing them into a position they're not thrilled with is better than giving that player away (to a division rival no less) for pennies on the dollar.

But of course there might have been other options, some of which have been explored. Is it really so hard to just say that the Oilers screwed the pooch all-around on this front? And, for that matter, that (a) they did the same with Eberle, (b) and then Strome, and (c) it seems likely they are preparing to do the same with Puljujarvi?

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809791 is a reply to message #809786 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.



Again, this is all incorrect. Cogliano's answered leading questions when pushed to say how the move to the Ducks helped him. He never said that he'd have never come to those conclusions with the Oilers.

The Oilers had Horcoff and Gagner at the point where they moved him, and they'd just drafted Nugent-Hopkins. So lots of reasons to think he wasn't going to be a top-6 center in that next year.

He had a solid 35 points on a terrible Oilers team in 2010-11. Good for 6th on the team, with Horcoff missing a lot of time with injury. He had a drop off in his first season with the Ducks with just 26 points, but even then, he'd have only been 8th on the Oilers. Certainly, scoring in that range should have made it an easy discussion that he was a 3rd line forward on merit for the Oilers, with some upside. His replacement, Eric Belanger, managed only 16 points in 78 games that year, so clearly the Oilers downgraded.

His point totals with Anaheim the next year (23 points in the 48 point shortened season) were pretty solid production. Not exactly someone completely pigeon-holed in to a checking forward role and he was 7th in scoring on a team that was actually quite healthy. It would have also made him 7th on the Oilers in that same season. Nugent-Hopkins and Hemsky both missed significant time with injury, so there would have been opportunities for a player like him to step up the lineup. (Belanger, had injuries too - playing in just 26 games, and tallying all of 3 assists.)

His third season with the Ducks he had 42 points, almost back to his career high (45) from his rookie season. He was 5th on the Ducks in scoring, so clearly no lesson about him being a third liner had sunk in here. He was playing as a second line player for the Ducks, because he had the ability to step up, and the team had some aging players and injuries. The Oilers had bought out Belanger by this time, and were getting close to giving up on Marco Roy too...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809792 is a reply to message #809791 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
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Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.



Again, this is all incorrect. Cogliano's answered leading questions when pushed to say how the move to the Ducks helped him. He never said that he'd have never come to those conclusions with the Oilers.

The Oilers had Horcoff and Gagner at the point where they moved him, and they'd just drafted Nugent-Hopkins. So lots of reasons to think he wasn't going to be a top-6 center in that next year.

He had a solid 35 points on a terrible Oilers team in 2010-11. Good for 6th on the team, with Horcoff missing a lot of time with injury. He had a drop off in his first season with the Ducks with just 26 points, but even then, he'd have only been 8th on the Oilers. Certainly, scoring in that range should have made it an easy discussion that he was a 3rd line forward on merit for the Oilers, with some upside. His replacement, Eric Belanger, managed only 16 points in 78 games that year, so clearly the Oilers downgraded.

His point totals with Anaheim the next year (23 points in the 48 point shortened season) were pretty solid production. Not exactly someone completely pigeon-holed in to a checking forward role and he was 7th in scoring on a team that was actually quite healthy. It would have also made him 7th on the Oilers in that same season. Nugent-Hopkins and Hemsky both missed significant time with injury, so there would have been opportunities for a player like him to step up the lineup. (Belanger, had injuries too - playing in just 26 games, and tallying all of 3 assists.)

His third season with the Ducks he had 42 points, almost back to his career high (45) from his rookie season. He was 5th on the Ducks in scoring, so clearly no lesson about him being a third liner had sunk in here. He was playing as a second line player for the Ducks, because he had the ability to step up, and the team had some aging players and injuries. The Oilers had bought out Belanger by this time, and were getting close to giving up on Marco Roy too...


Also, the Ducks didn't get Kesler until the 14/15 season (Cogliano's 4th with the team). Looks like Saku Koivu was their 2nd line centre in Cogliano's first year there (and to be clear, this was close to the end of his career Saku Koivu, not prime Saku Koivu).


Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809793 is a reply to message #809791 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.



Again, this is all incorrect. Cogliano's answered leading questions when pushed to say how the move to the Ducks helped him. He never said that he'd have never come to those conclusions with the Oilers.

The Oilers had Horcoff and Gagner at the point where they moved him, and they'd just drafted Nugent-Hopkins. So lots of reasons to think he wasn't going to be a top-6 center in that next year.

He had a solid 35 points on a terrible Oilers team in 2010-11. Good for 6th on the team, with Horcoff missing a lot of time with injury. He had a drop off in his first season with the Ducks with just 26 points, but even then, he'd have only been 8th on the Oilers. Certainly, scoring in that range should have made it an easy discussion that he was a 3rd line forward on merit for the Oilers, with some upside. His replacement, Eric Belanger, managed only 16 points in 78 games that year, so clearly the Oilers downgraded.

His point totals with Anaheim the next year (23 points in the 48 point shortened season) were pretty solid production. Not exactly someone completely pigeon-holed in to a checking forward role and he was 7th in scoring on a team that was actually quite healthy. It would have also made him 7th on the Oilers in that same season. Nugent-Hopkins and Hemsky both missed significant time with injury, so there would have been opportunities for a player like him to step up the lineup. (Belanger, had injuries too - playing in just 26 games, and tallying all of 3 assists.)

His third season with the Ducks he had 42 points, almost back to his career high (45) from his rookie season. He was 5th on the Ducks in scoring, so clearly no lesson about him being a third liner had sunk in here. He was playing as a second line player for the Ducks, because he had the ability to step up, and the team had some aging players and injuries. The Oilers had bought out Belanger by this time, and were getting close to giving up on Marco Roy too...

I get it's your thing to just automatically tell me I am wrong no matter what but I literally heard it last week from 2 guys who are close friends with the guy. One of whom PLAYED with him. I am not trying to come off as disrespectful but believe whatever the hell you want but I am going to take the word of the guys who know him personally over some fan who thinks he knows everything.

So go ahead, tell me whatever the hell you want but these 2 literally are personal friends with the player and ASKED HIM. So unless you are buddies with Cogliano Adam, I think you are full of it on this one.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809794 is a reply to message #809793 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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to be fair, you are wrong a lot.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809797 is a reply to message #809786 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809800 is a reply to message #809797 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?



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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809801 is a reply to message #809793 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:59

Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.



Again, this is all incorrect. Cogliano's answered leading questions when pushed to say how the move to the Ducks helped him. He never said that he'd have never come to those conclusions with the Oilers.

The Oilers had Horcoff and Gagner at the point where they moved him, and they'd just drafted Nugent-Hopkins. So lots of reasons to think he wasn't going to be a top-6 center in that next year.

He had a solid 35 points on a terrible Oilers team in 2010-11. Good for 6th on the team, with Horcoff missing a lot of time with injury. He had a drop off in his first season with the Ducks with just 26 points, but even then, he'd have only been 8th on the Oilers. Certainly, scoring in that range should have made it an easy discussion that he was a 3rd line forward on merit for the Oilers, with some upside. His replacement, Eric Belanger, managed only 16 points in 78 games that year, so clearly the Oilers downgraded.

His point totals with Anaheim the next year (23 points in the 48 point shortened season) were pretty solid production. Not exactly someone completely pigeon-holed in to a checking forward role and he was 7th in scoring on a team that was actually quite healthy. It would have also made him 7th on the Oilers in that same season. Nugent-Hopkins and Hemsky both missed significant time with injury, so there would have been opportunities for a player like him to step up the lineup. (Belanger, had injuries too - playing in just 26 games, and tallying all of 3 assists.)

His third season with the Ducks he had 42 points, almost back to his career high (45) from his rookie season. He was 5th on the Ducks in scoring, so clearly no lesson about him being a third liner had sunk in here. He was playing as a second line player for the Ducks, because he had the ability to step up, and the team had some aging players and injuries. The Oilers had bought out Belanger by this time, and were getting close to giving up on Marco Roy too...

I get it's your thing to just automatically tell me I am wrong no matter what but I literally heard it last week from 2 guys who are close friends with the guy. One of whom PLAYED with him. I am not trying to come off as disrespectful but believe whatever the hell you want but I am going to take the word of the guys who know him personally over some fan who thinks he knows everything.

So go ahead, tell me whatever the hell you want but these 2 literally are personal friends with the player and ASKED HIM. So unless you are buddies with Cogliano Adam, I think you are full of it on this one.


Aside from feeling attacked and thinking everyone is out to get you, do you think that trading an unsatisfied player is a smart move.

What does that tell everyone else? If the team does not do what I want, I should put up a fuss and tell them to trade me "Right *&^&%'ing now"!

Something was wrong in the water and it feels like it still is. Poor culture resonates from the top down and it is a hard fix when it is your management team that is cultivating the toxicity. A disgruntled employee is an easy fix if your organization is healthy. This two decades of a mess in Edmonton did not happen by chance or overnight.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809802 is a reply to message #809800 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him. BUT...I make sure I have talked to the kid enough times and used multiple approaches to get him to buy in to the what the team and coaching staff wants.

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2022 14:40]

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809806 is a reply to message #809802 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809807 is a reply to message #809806 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10724
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809808 is a reply to message #809802 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him. BUT...I make sure I have talked to the kid enough times and used multiple approaches to get him to buy in to the what the team and coaching staff wants.


The GM has to be able to separate the player and the budget. JP (his agents and parents and dog) has to know he's wanted in the lineup and will be given every opportunity to earn big minutes and big money, but he hasn't earned it yet. Under no circumstances will the player be given away because there's an opportunity to turn this team into a Stanley Cup champion (so long as they don't do something stupid like buying out Kassian or going with a Smith / Skinner tandem - whatever).

If JP is on board for that, he's welcome to earn his next contract. If JP isn't on board, they're welcome to find a trade. The Oilers need a player who can replace JP's production at X dollars. Or he can go back to Finland or play in Suisse with Koskinen, but he's not going to get a 5 million dollar contract there either.



Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809811 is a reply to message #809793 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
Messages: 7165
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 12:59


I get it's your thing to just automatically tell me I am wrong no matter what but I literally heard it last week from 2 guys who are close friends with the guy. One of whom PLAYED with him. I am not trying to come off as disrespectful but believe whatever the hell you want but I am going to take the word of the guys who know him personally over some fan who thinks he knows everything.

So go ahead, tell me whatever the hell you want but these 2 literally are personal friends with the player and ASKED HIM. So unless you are buddies with Cogliano Adam, I think you are full of it on this one.


If you want to believe that a player can never learn a lesson from his initial team, and needs to go to another team to learn it, well, then that's your absolute right to believe that. You're probably wrong in 99.9% of cases though. It's more likely that the team isn't messaging things properly if they aren't getting through to the player, and that there was something internal that they could have done to get the most out of that guy, rather than trading him for table scraps, which generally doesn't help the team at all.

Certainly, the record is absolutely clear in hindsight. The Oilers traded a player here who was a contributor for next to nothing. They felt disappointed in what Cogliano was because he was a first round pick who they had billed as a headliner of their first attempt at rebuilding, and he'd become a decent depth player. 36 points a season is a decent year and he'd had 28, 38 and 45 in the three seasons before that with the team. They were hoping he was going to be at least a 50-60 point guy, so they were so disappointed with that failure to make the jump up (along with his inability to win faceoffs consistently) that they flushed him for the pick that became Marco Roy. If you asked Bob Stauffer at the time, he'd no doubt tell you that it was essentially Belanger and Marco Roy, but even if you accept that, the Oilers lose big in the end.

Cogliano has now played over 1000 games and he had four more 30+ point seasons after leaving Edmonton. That's a useful player, who the Oilers couldn't accept for what he was, and who they then blamed for not understanding himself. Fail, fail fail.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809812 is a reply to message #809806 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2336
Registered: September 2005
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


Without sounding aggressive........Jesse is a player who can play up and down the lineup, but probably stay on a top line in close games. He brings a lot to the table. He is a 3rd liner when he's falling on his nose, but a top line guy when he's not. Almost how Hyman can play the wing on any of the top lines when asked, as he provides an instant spark to whomever he plays with. He has room to grow and he is not a finished product, unlike how some of the media have spun his story line.

I would never say he should "stay" as a good 3rd liner.....I think player and line management should be fluid and adaptable.

Also...you write your own obituary when you say stuff like, "am I wrong again?" You seem to enjoy discussion, and discussion would be boring if everyone subscribed to the same beliefs. Since I am not physically speaking with you, the woe is me attitude comes across as being pitiful. You can stick to your guns without coming off as so aggressive and backed into an digital corner. You are probably a great guy and I would enjoy talking hockey with you in real life, but I highly doubt poster's here takes anyone's opinions to heart. I hope you don't are not losing sleep over people having a differing opinion than you. I almost envy your optimism that we are almost always making the correct decisions as a team.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809813 is a reply to message #809807 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809814 is a reply to message #809813 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2336
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.



So what is JP worth? I see a bridge deal in the 2.25M to 2.75M and an extension running at 2.75-4.5M depending on term, with 3 years being the minimum and 8 being the max. I could be far off, but it falls in line with his comparable players.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809815 is a reply to message #809808 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2336
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:04

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him. BUT...I make sure I have talked to the kid enough times and used multiple approaches to get him to buy in to the what the team and coaching staff wants.


The GM has to be able to separate the player and the budget. JP (his agents and parents and dog) has to know he's wanted in the lineup and will be given every opportunity to earn big minutes and big money, but he hasn't earned it yet. Under no circumstances will the player be given away because there's an opportunity to turn this team into a Stanley Cup champion (so long as they don't do something stupid like buying out Kassian or going with a Smith / Skinner tandem - whatever).

If JP is on board for that, he's welcome to earn his next contract. If JP isn't on board, they're welcome to find a trade. The Oilers need a player who can replace JP's production at X dollars. Or he can go back to Finland or play in Suisse with Koskinen, but he's not going to get a 5 million dollar contract there either.




Yep. The current CBA gives the Oilers enough leverage to wait him out. I would be curious to what an arbitrator would give him, but like RDOF mentioned, box scores pay and underlying numbers just win games. If Jesse wanted to go to arb, I would welcome it. This should be a much smaller problem than it is being made out. The deck is stacked against Jesse, but yet it still feels like we are about to fold.

This is what happens when there is no real hockey news to report on.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809816 is a reply to message #809812 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:19

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


Without sounding aggressive........Jesse is a player who can play up and down the lineup, but probably stay on a top line in close games. He brings a lot to the table. He is a 3rd liner when he's falling on his nose, but a top line guy when he's not. Almost how Hyman can play the wing on any of the top lines when asked, as he provides an instant spark to whomever he plays with. He has room to grow and he is not a finished product, unlike how some of the media have spun his story line.

I would never say he should "stay" as a good 3rd liner.....I think player and line management should be fluid and adaptable.

Also...you write your own obituary when you say stuff like, "am I wrong again?" You seem to enjoy discussion, and discussion would be boring if everyone subscribed to the same beliefs. Since I am not physically speaking with you, the woe is me attitude comes across as being pitiful. You can stick to your guns without coming off as so aggressive and backed into an digital corner. You are probably a great guy and I would enjoy talking hockey with you in real life, but I highly doubt poster's here takes anyone's opinions to heart. I hope you don't are not losing sleep over people having a differing opinion than you. I almost envy your optimism that we are almost always making the correct decisions as a team.


I don't have a woe is me attitude. I don't come here looking for sympathy nor do I lose any sleep at night over what happens on Oilfans. Believe what you want. All good though.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809817 is a reply to message #809813 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10724
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.


Hyman used up a lot of time with elite teammates scoring 10 and 15 too. I think he was 26 years old when he finally started figuring out his offensive game.

He scored 28 points playing with Matthews before signing a 2.25Mx4 deal and ended up a bargain, but then got his due from us.

Pulju is younger and has a better draft pedigree, and the cap is higher now, so that's probably something like a 3.3Mx4 deal from us, if we value his contribution in the top 6 as a good 2-way player that is allowing our elite offensive guys to cheat a little more without is costing us as much. I'd do that for sure for Pulju. Goose is advocating for a longer term deal around 4M or so with the expectation Pulju finds his offensive game and it ends up a bargain for years to come. If we're negotiating with Pulju as if he has to be paid like a 3rd liner, then for sure he's gone, because he knows he can do better somewhere else and it's clear teams with good analytics groups are trying to get him from us.



"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809818 is a reply to message #809814 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.



So what is JP worth? I see a bridge deal in the 2.25M to 2.75M and an extension running at 2.75-4.5M depending on term, with 3 years being the minimum and 8 being the max. I could be far off, but it falls in line with his comparable players.



I would be perfectly happy with those ranges. Doesn't seem like the player feels the way you do otherwise, I think the team would already have a deal done but we shall see what happens.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809819 is a reply to message #809816 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
Messages: 2336
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:19

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


Without sounding aggressive........Jesse is a player who can play up and down the lineup, but probably stay on a top line in close games. He brings a lot to the table. He is a 3rd liner when he's falling on his nose, but a top line guy when he's not. Almost how Hyman can play the wing on any of the top lines when asked, as he provides an instant spark to whomever he plays with. He has room to grow and he is not a finished product, unlike how some of the media have spun his story line.

I would never say he should "stay" as a good 3rd liner.....I think player and line management should be fluid and adaptable.

Also...you write your own obituary when you say stuff like, "am I wrong again?" You seem to enjoy discussion, and discussion would be boring if everyone subscribed to the same beliefs. Since I am not physically speaking with you, the woe is me attitude comes across as being pitiful. You can stick to your guns without coming off as so aggressive and backed into an digital corner. You are probably a great guy and I would enjoy talking hockey with you in real life, but I highly doubt poster's here takes anyone's opinions to heart. I hope you don't are not losing sleep over people having a differing opinion than you. I almost envy your optimism that we are almost always making the correct decisions as a team.


I don't have a woe is me attitude. I don't come here looking for sympathy nor do I lose any sleep at night over what happens on Oilfans. Believe what you want. All good though.


My apologies. texts and forums can be easily misinterpreted. That was my perception. Glad you really do not feel like everyone is attacking you or always disagreeing with you. I can be very literal at times.

Since I answered your question, I am curious to know if you think I am out to lunch.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809820 is a reply to message #808823 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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It's funny how this season actually worked out very well for us with Pulju. We all got to see what Pulju was capable of playing with McDavid. He was amazing in the first half of the year, we were freaking out about how he was playing himself off the team because he would cost too much. Think he was on pace for a 60+ point season, something like 23 points in 28 games. Then his season gets derailed by COVID and a number of injuries. Any player already signed long term, you just accept that, get better in the summer, hit the ground running next year. Everyone knows that stuff happens sometimes and seasons get messed up with illness/injuries. With Pulju though, that last half year just kills his ability to negotiate the extension he was on pace for. It creates a nice opening for the Oilers to sign a better deal with him. We don't seem to want to take advantage of the good fortune though. A well managed team probably would.

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2022 15:49]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809821 is a reply to message #809817 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.


Hyman used up a lot of time with elite teammates scoring 10 and 15 too. I think he was 26 years old when he finally started figuring out his offensive game.

He scored 28 points playing with Matthews before signing a 2.25Mx4 deal and ended up a bargain, but then got his due from us.

Pulju is younger and has a better draft pedigree, and the cap is higher now, so that's probably something like a 3.3Mx4 deal from us, if we value his contribution in the top 6 as a good 2-way player that is allowing our elite offensive guys to cheat a little more without is costing us as much. I'd do that for sure for Pulju. Goose is advocating for a longer term deal around 4M or so with the expectation Pulju finds his offensive game and it ends up a bargain for years to come. If we're negotiating with Pulju as if he has to be paid like a 3rd liner, then for sure he's gone, because he knows he can do better somewhere else and it's clear teams with good analytics groups are trying to get him from us.



I have zero issues keeping JP. The more good players you have, the better your team is. He's a good player. My only concern is you have to be right about his contract. You can not commit long term on him, give him over 4 mill right now and then 2 -3 years from now, he's still not improving his scoring. You can't be paying him more than 4 mill to be a 14-17 goal, 35 pt player. The Oilers need to get out of the cycle of having a bunch of players who are making 500-1 mill more than they should.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809822 is a reply to message #809821 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:52

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39



Hyman used up a lot of time with elite teammates scoring 10 and 15 too. I think he was 26 years old when he finally started figuring out his offensive game.

He scored 28 points playing with Matthews before signing a 2.25Mx4 deal and ended up a bargain, but then got his due from us.

Pulju is younger and has a better draft pedigree, and the cap is higher now, so that's probably something like a 3.3Mx4 deal from us, if we value his contribution in the top 6 as a good 2-way player that is allowing our elite offensive guys to cheat a little more without is costing us as much. I'd do that for sure for Pulju. Goose is advocating for a longer term deal around 4M or so with the expectation Pulju finds his offensive game and it ends up a bargain for years to come. If we're negotiating with Pulju as if he has to be paid like a 3rd liner, then for sure he's gone, because he knows he can do better somewhere else and it's clear teams with good analytics groups are trying to get him from us.



I have zero issues keeping JP. The more good players you have, the better your team is. He's a good player. My only concern is you have to be right about his contract. You can not commit long term on him, give him over 4 mill right now and then 2 -3 years from now, he's still not improving his scoring. You can't be paying him more than 4 mill to be a 14-17 goal, 35 pt player. The Oilers need to get out of the cycle of having a bunch of players who are making 500-1 mill more than they should.


This is where you need smart people in your org to make the right decisions, especially with talented players. I wish the Oilers could give us faith that they have good evaluators of young talent, but I don't see a reason why someone would think that.

As fans all we can go by are stats and our eyes. The stats say Pulju consistently helped push play in the right direction, even if he wasn't scoring a lot, which is actually a rare thing around here outside of a few guys. Even without McDavid he did it, which is almost unheard of with this team. There is a smart player there. One that needs some more polish to his game and to manage his confidence better. He's young, lost a few early years of development with poor management, coaching, possible his agent pushing too hard for him to get the NHL salary ASAP, threatening to go back to Finland out of the draft, knowing Chia was desperate for another winger to make up for moving Hall.

Personally, I would rather lock up money on young talent with some risk attached than guys like Kassian and Foegele. I think even at 4M there will still be team s that would stay interested in Pulju if his analytics stay where they are. The idea that the Oilers are screwing up young players is probably to our advantage in that case :) Lots of teams will think they can take a young talent and do better. Guys like Kassian and Foegele though, giving you 4th line performance for 2nd/high end 3rd liner money, almost impossible to move. You're stuck with that crap unless you pay.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809823 is a reply to message #809818 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:42

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:22

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


I think Pulju does more than you are giving him credit for. Having a good defensive player in your top 6 that has some guys that love to cheat can be very valuable. Pulju was actually on the 2 best performing expected goals (McDavid-Hyman-Pulju) and actual goals against/60 lines (McDavid-Kane-Pulju) in the league this last season. He has the ability to keep up with elite players, and he keeps getting better at reading the play. The scoring needs to improve, but if he is turning a line of 3 guys that cheat that give up as much as they create into a line with 2 guys that like to cheat and 1 guy that is more responsible that suddenly is getting 2x what they give up, there is a lot of value in that.

I was thinking about a comparison for how fans perceive a player. Pulju is a lot like Hyman when he was under Babcock. Leafs fans were pissed off that this guy that couldn't score much was glued to top offensive guys. Babcock spent a lot of time telling media and fans that this defensively responsible hard working guy is actually providing loads of value to his line, even if it's not on the score sheet. Of course in time Hyman did develop some finish in his game and became even more valuable. Leafs are still trying to cope with losing him.



I am fine to add in his defensive abilities. He seems to do pretty well with that. Able to pick off passes and able to steal pucks with that long reach. But, and correct me if I am wrong, rightly or wrongly, teams don't seem to value defensive abilities when it comes to salary like they do goals. So in the case of JP, and again, correct me if I am wrong, if he stood in front of an arbritator, he is not going to get as much credit money wise for his good defensive play vs if he had over 20 goals scored. Not projected goals, actually scoring 20 goals this past season. So in my opinion, his inability to convert on the chances he got playing with Leon and especially McD hurts him a lot. More so than I think some fans think. That is just my opinion. Doesn't take away from the fact he is a good player

If you look at Hyman who I think is a good player to use in this discussion. Before coming to the Oilers while playing on a line with the Leafs best players most of the time I believe. He had.
21 goals in 71 - that's 24 in 82
21 goals in 51 - that's 34 in 82
15 goals in 43 - that's 29 in 82.

In comparison JP this past season had 14 in 65 which is 18 in 82. He did that and no offense to any Leafs fans, JP did that while playing with a superior player in McD over say a Matthews or Marner or Tavares. In every one of those seasons in TO, Hyman was well above 20 goals, playing with slightly lesser players than McD and he also battled injuries as well. Before his Oilers deal, Hyman was making 2.25 mill while scoring more goals, probably playing a little more aggressively than Hyman but a similar style of game but JP should be making more than that? I am not seeing that at the moment.



So what is JP worth? I see a bridge deal in the 2.25M to 2.75M and an extension running at 2.75-4.5M depending on term, with 3 years being the minimum and 8 being the max. I could be far off, but it falls in line with his comparable players.



I would be perfectly happy with those ranges. Doesn't seem like the player feels the way you do otherwise, I think the team would already have a deal done but we shall see what happens.


It appears the team is not focusing on the RFA's at this time. You would think Ryan McLeod would be the easiest of all the signings and there has been nothing. Draft and the UFA season are likely at the forefront. I expect, like most teams that plan on signing their RFA's to wait until late July early August. Cripes, how many arb deals are done moments prior to the hearing?

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809824 is a reply to message #809819 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:45

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:19

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.


It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.


These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.


Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.




And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?




First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him.


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


Without sounding aggressive........Jesse is a player who can play up and down the lineup, but probably stay on a top line in close games. He brings a lot to the table. He is a 3rd liner when he's falling on his nose, but a top line guy when he's not. Almost how Hyman can play the wing on any of the top lines when asked, as he provides an instant spark to whomever he plays with. He has room to grow and he is not a finished product, unlike how some of the media have spun his story line.

I would never say he should "stay" as a good 3rd liner.....I think player and line management should be fluid and adaptable.

Also...you write your own obituary when you say stuff like, "am I wrong again?" You seem to enjoy discussion, and discussion would be boring if everyone subscribed to the same beliefs. Since I am not physically speaking with you, the woe is me attitude comes across as being pitiful. You can stick to your guns without coming off as so aggressive and backed into an digital corner. You are probably a great guy and I would enjoy talking hockey with you in real life, but I highly doubt poster's here takes anyone's opinions to heart. I hope you don't are not losing sleep over people having a differing opinion than you. I almost envy your optimism that we are almost always making the correct decisions as a team.


I don't have a woe is me attitude. I don't come here looking for sympathy nor do I lose any sleep at night over what happens on Oilfans. Believe what you want. All good though.


My apologies. texts and forums can be easily misinterpreted. That was my perception. Glad you really do not feel like everyone is attacking you or always disagreeing with you. I can be very literal at times.

Since I answered your question, I am curious to know if you think I am out to lunch.

I believe you are referring to this if I am not mistaken?

"Without sounding aggressive........Jesse is a player who can play up and down the lineup, but probably stay on a top line in close games. He brings a lot to the table. He is a 3rd liner when he's falling on his nose, but a top line guy when he's not. Almost how Hyman can play the wing on any of the top lines when asked, as he provides an instant spark to whomever he plays with. He has room to grow and he is not a finished product, unlike how some of the media have spun his story line."

I would agree with that and I believe I said pretty similar things in what I see JP as. A top 9 player who can slide up and down your lines. Does lots of little things well, seems to have a good defensive sense to the game so when he's in your top 6, he can help your top guys in that department. He probably needs a little more time to develop before I would write his name in pen when making up the top 6 lines and that development is on the offensive side to the game. He needs find a way to become a more dangerous shooter and finisher.


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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809825 is a reply to message #809824 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skoobz is currently offline Skoobz
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These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809826 is a reply to message #809825 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup
Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 16:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read. icon_thumbsup icon_thumbsup








I agree sirs

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809830 is a reply to message #809824 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Multi-quotes aside, it kind of seems like everyone agrees on Puljujarvi.

Keep him, but at a decent price.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809832 is a reply to message #809830 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 17:12

Multi-quotes aside, it kind of seems like everyone agrees on Puljujarvi.

Keep him, but at a decent price.


Jesse, here’s 20M over 5 years, now go work on your balance and your finishing.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809833 is a reply to message #809832 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 18:51

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 17:12

Multi-quotes aside, it kind of seems like everyone agrees on Puljujarvi.

Keep him, but at a decent price.


Jesse, here’s 20M over 5 years, now go work on your balance and your finishing.

I legit think he plays his way into that being a bargain contract.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809834 is a reply to message #809806 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndersonRules is currently offline AndersonRules
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51


Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?


No, your analysis isn't even close to accurate. Stats-wise, eyes-wise, and analytics-wise, JP is a competent 2nd-line RW, or an elite-level 3rd-line RW.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809835 is a reply to message #809833 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 19:17

Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 18:51

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 17:12

Multi-quotes aside, it kind of seems like everyone agrees on Puljujarvi.

Keep him, but at a decent price.


Jesse, here’s 20M over 5 years, now go work on your balance and your finishing.

I legit think he plays his way into that being a bargain contract.


Completely agree.

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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809836 is a reply to message #809825 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Skoobz wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:10

These are some SUPER awesome Quote replies, fellas. Nice and easy to read.



icon_nod

Good point!
icon_nod

Good point!
icon_nod

Good point!
icon_nod

Good point!
icon_nod

Good point!
icon_nod

Good point!


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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809838 is a reply to message #809817 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:39


Hyman used up a lot of time with elite teammates scoring 10 and 15 too. I think he was 26 years old when he finally started figuring out his offensive game.

He scored 28 points playing with Matthews before signing a 2.25Mx4 deal and ended up a bargain, but then got his due from us.

Pulju is younger and has a better draft pedigree, and the cap is higher now, so that's probably something like a 3.3Mx4 deal from us, if we value his contribution in the top 6 as a good 2-way player that is allowing our elite offensive guys to cheat a little more without is costing us as much. I'd do that for sure for Pulju. Goose is advocating for a longer term deal around 4M or so with the expectation Pulju finds his offensive game and it ends up a bargain for years to come. If we're negotiating with Pulju as if he has to be paid like a 3rd liner, then for sure he's gone, because he knows he can do better somewhere else and it's clear teams with good analytics groups are trying to get him from us.




It isn't really great analysis to take two totally different players and compare random seasons. If you put Puljujarvi up against Brett Hull, then he's junk. I mean, Hall was playing with Oates, who wasn't even close to as good as McDavid!

There's a pretty good argument that Puljujarvi is a top-six right winger already. Among right wingers, he was 41st in points, 44th in points per game, and 37th in even strength points. (Yamamoto was 35th, 47th and 29th by the same metrics). It's also been acknowledged many times, even by Bob Stauffer that Puljujarvi's campaign was negatively impacted by Covid and then by injury. There was a point early in the year where he was among the league's highest scoring right wingers. While that wasn't sustainable, it definitely showed some capability to play at a high level. I don't think he should get a contract based off those first 30 games or so, but I don't think they should be easily forgotten.

With arbitration this summer, the Oilers have a route available to them should they be fairly far apart in the negotiation with the player. Let him file for arbitration, and then see what happens. It's unlikely he's going to win a major payday from an arbitrator given his stats. I don't think there's a good reason to get rid of him, unless the Oilers are able to acquire enough good players that he's unnecessary. Just "filling out the top six" isn't a good enough reason for me, if that means you're playing Kassian or Shore or someone like that as 3RW.

As I said about Cogliano, a player doesn't have to believe they're the third best right winger on the team just because that's where they're slotted in, and hopefully, if handled well, it can be motivation for the player to excel and force the coach to move him up the lineup.

I definitely would not part with a player because he simply thinks he can be better than I think he can be. I'd just be encouraging him to go and prove me wrong and I'll eat crow. But we all know that's not the Oilers way...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809839 is a reply to message #809836 ]
Tue, 05 July 2022 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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I got carried away. It happens.

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