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Flames arena [message #822029]	Tue, 25 April 2023 16:07

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

I thought there was a thread about this already, but I couldn't find it. Anyways:

Quote:

The City of Calgary has reached agreements, in principle, with the province, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) and Calgary Stampede to proceed forward with the creation of the Culture + Entertainment District in downtown Calgary, including a new and publicly-owned event centre.

The deal is valued at $1.2 billion

The City of Calgary is contributing 44 per cent, or $537.3 million, and 56 per cent is being contributed by both the province ($330 million) and Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation ($356 million).

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-hosting-important-arena-a nnouncement-on-tuesday-afternoon-1.6370698

Devil will be in the details, but must be nice to get the government to put over $850M into a project to support your professional sports team.

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Flames arena [message #822031 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Tue, 25 April 2023 16:10

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

And some in Edmonton cried about what the City put in for Rogers. That's NOTHING. City and the province!

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Re: Flames arena [message #822032 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Tue, 25 April 2023 16:12

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Goose wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:07

I thought there was a thread about this already, but I couldn't find it. Anyways:

Quote:

The City of Calgary has reached agreements, in principle, with the province, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) and Calgary Stampede to proceed forward with the creation of the Culture + Entertainment District in downtown Calgary, including a new and publicly-owned event centre.

The deal is valued at $1.2 billion

The City of Calgary is contributing 44 per cent, or $537.3 million, and 56 per cent is being contributed by both the province ($330 million) and Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation ($356 million).

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-hosting-important-arena-a nnouncement-on-tuesday-afternoon-1.6370698

Devil will be in the details, but must be nice to get the government to put over $850M into a project to support your professional sports team.

Hot damn. That's some expensive vote buying

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Flames arena [message #822033 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Tue, 25 April 2023 16:16

NetBOG
Messages: 2948
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

What a joke. Danielle buying votes. Tax and spend conservative? How does somebody like PI even defend this?

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Re: Flames arena [message #822034 is a reply to message #822033 ]	Tue, 25 April 2023 16:33

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:16

What a joke. Danielle buying votes. Tax and spend conservative? How does somebody like PI even defend this?

1. Money isn't real anymore, so who cares
2. Buying votes is standard operating procedure now
3. I'd rather waste money on hockey than what 75% of the budget is spent on
4. Still cheaper than the NDs

But since you asked, I'm not in favor of stuff like this. I would prefer the Flames stay in Calgary, but public dollars should not be spent in this manner.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822035 is a reply to message #822034 ]	Tue, 25 April 2023 17:05

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 15:33

NetBOG wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:16

What a joke. Danielle buying votes. Tax and spend conservative? How does somebody like PI even defend this?

1. Money isn't real anymore, so who cares
2. Buying votes is standard operating procedure now
3. I'd rather waste money on hockey than what 75% of the budget is spent on
4. Still cheaper than the NDs

But since you asked, I'm not in favor of stuff like this. I would prefer the Flames stay in Calgary, but public dollars should not be spent in this manner.

Truth.
At least its something real.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Flames arena [message #822181 is a reply to message #822035 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 08:24

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I don't agree when people say that public money shouldn't be involved with an arena. A City is only as good as it's facilities. It's a CITY FACILITY. You can't have facilities that are falling apart.

The whole "paying for billionaires and millionaires" is such a ridiculous take and to me shows a lack of intelligence by the people that say it. The NHL team is just the lead tenant but that rink will be used by all kinds of concerts that currently don't go to to Calgary. Rodeo's, curling, wrestling, UFC, trade shows, non hockey staking events, etc. All things that will use that arena. All things that bring HUGE amounts of money to the City and surrounding businesses. All things and inevitably bring tax dollars back to the City and the citizens.

So even if a person NEVER goes to a single Flames game or even an event in that new rink ever, they will get a economic benefit from that rink. Nothing is free in the world, so if the City and the citizens of Calgary are going to get an economic benefit from a new arena, which they will, they should have skin in the game.

To further my point. In the breakdown of the costs.

An arena (event centre), priced at $800 million.
A parking structure, priced at $35.4 million.
An enclosed plaza, priced at $9.5 million. - Should be City cost as this is a public space, not a team space.
On-site public realm improvements, priced at $28.7 million. - Should be City costs. Public related improvements.
A community rink, priced at $52.8 million. - Will the team use it? Sure but it's a community rink so that means other teams (minor hockey, public skate, etc) not related to the NHL team will use it. It will be used by other things not related to the team. The NHL team can operate just fine with out a public rink.
Transportation improvements, infrastructure and other district benefits, priced at $238.4 million - All City related. Transportation and infrastructure is part of a City's JOB to maintain and improve. That's part of what people's taxes go towards. To maintain and improve the City's existing infrastructure and build new infrastructure when the old stuff doesn't function or meet the City's need anymore. I know, that's what I do for a living. City's just like to try to tack on costs for road and underground improvements to private development to get stuff for free.
Other costs, priced at $58.8 million.

So if you add it all up, 329.4 mill of the project is straight up City costs because it's all stuff they should be doing to maintain and improve the lives of their citizens. That's not putting a single dime into the actual arena yet.

[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2023 08:56]

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Re: Flames arena [message #822184 is a reply to message #822181 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 08:59

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:24

I don't agree when people say that public money shouldn't be involved with an arena. A City is only as good as it's facilities. It's a CITY FACILITY. You can't have facilities that are falling apart.

The whole "paying for billionaires and millionaires" is such a ridiculous take and to me shows a lack of intelligence by the people that say it. The NHL team is just the lead tenant but that rink will be used by all kinds of concerts that currently don't go to to Calgary. Rodeo's, curling, wrestling, UFC, trade shows, non hockey staking events, etc. All things that will use that arena. All things that bring HUGE amounts of money to the City and surrounding businesses. All things and inevitably bring tax dollars back to the City and the citizens.

So even if a person NEVER goes to a single Flames game or even an event in that new rink ever, they will get a economic benefit from that rink. Nothing is free in the world, so if the City and the citizens of Calgary are going to get an economic benefit from a new arena, which they will, they should have skin in the game.

It'll be a facility in the city, but it's not a city facility. It'll be used and managed by the Flames and the direct economic benefit will go to the Flames. I don't like the idea of public money being used to pay for capital where the return benefits a private corporation. What I don't mind is public money being used to improve public infrastructure that'll benefit not just the business, but also the people. If, for example, the city paid for the outdoor plaza I wouldn't mind. If the city did the roads, utilities, and lowered taxes for everyone I'd also be fine with it.

What always happens with any government scheme is the public benefit never equals the public investment while the private business, NGO, non-profit, or bureaucracy becomes reliant on continued public support and operationally inefficient. Taking fewer public dollars has the opposite effect.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822185 is a reply to message #822184 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 09:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:24

I don't agree when people say that public money shouldn't be involved with an arena. A City is only as good as it's facilities. It's a CITY FACILITY. You can't have facilities that are falling apart.

The whole "paying for billionaires and millionaires" is such a ridiculous take and to me shows a lack of intelligence by the people that say it. The NHL team is just the lead tenant but that rink will be used by all kinds of concerts that currently don't go to to Calgary. Rodeo's, curling, wrestling, UFC, trade shows, non hockey staking events, etc. All things that will use that arena. All things that bring HUGE amounts of money to the City and surrounding businesses. All things and inevitably bring tax dollars back to the City and the citizens.

So even if a person NEVER goes to a single Flames game or even an event in that new rink ever, they will get a economic benefit from that rink. Nothing is free in the world, so if the City and the citizens of Calgary are going to get an economic benefit from a new arena, which they will, they should have skin in the game.

It'll be a facility in the city, but it's not a city facility. It'll be used and managed by the Flames and the direct economic benefit will go to the Flames. I don't like the idea of public money being used to pay for capital where the return benefits a private corporation. What I don't mind is public money being used to improve public infrastructure that'll benefit not just the business, but also the people. If, for example, the city paid for the outdoor plaza I wouldn't mind. If the city did the roads, utilities, and lowered taxes for everyone I'd also be fine with it.

What always happens with any government scheme is the public benefit never equals the public investment while the private business, NGO, non-profit, or bureaucracy becomes reliant on continued public support and operationally inefficient. Taking fewer public dollars has the opposite effect.

So answer these questions. Taking the Flames out of the equation for a moment.

I looked it up. The estimated population for Calgary is 1.4 mill people. For a City of Calgary's size, do you feel they need a stadium that is NHL size (so 17-19,000) to house other non hockey related events? Like big concerts as an example.

I hate to break it to you man, but the big acts like Taylor Swift, Garth Brooks, Metallica, even Shania who's doing 2 shows in Edmonton in a couple of weeks aren't coming to your City if you have a WHL size rink like Red Deer has. I would assume the citizens of Calgary expect their City has an arena big enough to attract bands like that. So even if the Flames aren't in the picture, at some point the Dome will be completely non functional for big concerts. Big bands have already been bi-passing Calgary and doing more than 1 show in Edmonton since Rogers opened. So at some point the City will have to replace the Dome even if the Flames aren't in the picture.

So let's say the City says screw it Flames, we aren't paying for nothing, the Dome is fine, you can use it if you want too. Eventually the Flames will have to leave. That's not a threat, that's the truth. There is all kinds of talk about Houston and Utah and maybe Atlanta getting a team back. Regardless, if the Flames need to go, I have no doubt in my mind they would find a place. Would it be a better market? Hard to say but eventually that building will no longer be NHL viable. It's getting to the point now based on players comments and the fact actually pieces of it are falling down. Eventually the building will no longer be economically viable for the Flames and they will go.

So when that happens, what then for the City and an arena? Like I said above, a City the size of Calgary has to have a venue that seats 17-19,000 to attract big City events. That's a fact. So if you play hardball and don't put a penny into it and ride out the dome until it collapses, eventually you have to build another one regardless if there is an NHL team. So guess who's on the hook for the whole project? Maybe you can dumb down the arena because you aren't housing an NHL team anymore but the bulk of that costs with all the needed improvements it needs, is now ALL on the City.

[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2023 09:33]

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Re: Flames arena [message #822188 is a reply to message #822185 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 09:48

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 09:26

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:24

I don't agree when people say that public money shouldn't be involved with an arena. A City is only as good as it's facilities. It's a CITY FACILITY. You can't have facilities that are falling apart.

The whole "paying for billionaires and millionaires" is such a ridiculous take and to me shows a lack of intelligence by the people that say it. The NHL team is just the lead tenant but that rink will be used by all kinds of concerts that currently don't go to to Calgary. Rodeo's, curling, wrestling, UFC, trade shows, non hockey staking events, etc. All things that will use that arena. All things that bring HUGE amounts of money to the City and surrounding businesses. All things and inevitably bring tax dollars back to the City and the citizens.

So even if a person NEVER goes to a single Flames game or even an event in that new rink ever, they will get a economic benefit from that rink. Nothing is free in the world, so if the City and the citizens of Calgary are going to get an economic benefit from a new arena, which they will, they should have skin in the game.

It'll be a facility in the city, but it's not a city facility. It'll be used and managed by the Flames and the direct economic benefit will go to the Flames. I don't like the idea of public money being used to pay for capital where the return benefits a private corporation. What I don't mind is public money being used to improve public infrastructure that'll benefit not just the business, but also the people. If, for example, the city paid for the outdoor plaza I wouldn't mind. If the city did the roads, utilities, and lowered taxes for everyone I'd also be fine with it.

What always happens with any government scheme is the public benefit never equals the public investment while the private business, NGO, non-profit, or bureaucracy becomes reliant on continued public support and operationally inefficient. Taking fewer public dollars has the opposite effect.

So answer these questions. Taking the Flames out of the equation for a moment.

I looked it up. The estimated population for Calgary is 1.4 mill people. For a City of Calgary's size, do you feel they need a stadium that is NHL size (so 17-19,000) to house other non hockey related events? Like big concerts as an example.

I hate to break it to you man, but the big acts like Taylor Swift, Garth Brooks, Metallica, even Shania who's doing 2 shows in Edmonton in a couple of weeks aren't coming to your City if you have a WHL size rink like Red Deer has. I would assume the citizens of Calgary expect their City has an arena big enough to attract bands like that. So even if the Flames aren't in the picture, at some point the Dome will be completely non functional for big concerts. Big bands have already been bi-passing Calgary and doing more than 1 show in Edmonton since Rogers opened. So at some point the City will have to replace the Dome even if the Flames aren't in the picture.

So let's say the City says screw it Flames, we aren't paying for nothing, the Dome is fine, you can use it if you want too. Eventually the Flames will have to leave. That's not a threat, that's the truth. There is all kinds of talk about Houston and Utah and maybe Atlanta getting a team back. Regardless, if the Flames need to go, I have no doubt in my mind they would find a place. Would it be a better market? Hard to say but eventually that building will no longer be NHL viable. It's getting to the point now based on players comments and the fact actually pieces of it are falling down. Eventually the building will no longer be economically viable for the Flames and they will go.

So when that happens, what then for the City and an arena? Like I said above, a City the size of Calgary has to have a venue that seats 17-19,000 to attract big City events. That's a fact. So if you play hardball and don't put a penny into it and ride out the dome until it collapses, eventually you have to build another one regardless if there is an NHL team. So guess who's on the hook for the whole project? Maybe you can dumb down the arena because you aren't housing an NHL team anymore but the bulk of that costs with all the needed improvements it needs, is now ALL on the City.

I agree with you on all of that. Edmonton is better with Rogers and the Oilers. The problem for me is when there's an imbalance between public capital cost and private benefits derived it becomes a scheme. Edmonton, for example, spends millions of dollars / year leasing space in the Edmonton Tower from a private business that got and gets massive tax breaks to build the tower. That's a scheme. The city of Edmonton owning Rogers Place but not getting paid rent is a scheme. The person who bought the old greyhound building land because he had knowledge of what was happening and getting the same giant tax break was also a scheme.

Basically I want the rent seeking acknowledged, for some hands to be slapped away from the public purse once in a while, and politicians not to be corrupt idiots. I still want to believe that a Canadian city having the NHL is possible with these conditions, but I'm not sure that it is.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822190 is a reply to message #822188 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 10:11

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 09:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 09:26

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 08:24

I don't agree when people say that public money shouldn't be involved with an arena. A City is only as good as it's facilities. It's a CITY FACILITY. You can't have facilities that are falling apart.

The whole "paying for billionaires and millionaires" is such a ridiculous take and to me shows a lack of intelligence by the people that say it. The NHL team is just the lead tenant but that rink will be used by all kinds of concerts that currently don't go to to Calgary. Rodeo's, curling, wrestling, UFC, trade shows, non hockey staking events, etc. All things that will use that arena. All things that bring HUGE amounts of money to the City and surrounding businesses. All things and inevitably bring tax dollars back to the City and the citizens.

So even if a person NEVER goes to a single Flames game or even an event in that new rink ever, they will get a economic benefit from that rink. Nothing is free in the world, so if the City and the citizens of Calgary are going to get an economic benefit from a new arena, which they will, they should have skin in the game.

It'll be a facility in the city, but it's not a city facility. It'll be used and managed by the Flames and the direct economic benefit will go to the Flames. I don't like the idea of public money being used to pay for capital where the return benefits a private corporation. What I don't mind is public money being used to improve public infrastructure that'll benefit not just the business, but also the people. If, for example, the city paid for the outdoor plaza I wouldn't mind. If the city did the roads, utilities, and lowered taxes for everyone I'd also be fine with it.

What always happens with any government scheme is the public benefit never equals the public investment while the private business, NGO, non-profit, or bureaucracy becomes reliant on continued public support and operationally inefficient. Taking fewer public dollars has the opposite effect.

So answer these questions. Taking the Flames out of the equation for a moment.

I looked it up. The estimated population for Calgary is 1.4 mill people. For a City of Calgary's size, do you feel they need a stadium that is NHL size (so 17-19,000) to house other non hockey related events? Like big concerts as an example.

I hate to break it to you man, but the big acts like Taylor Swift, Garth Brooks, Metallica, even Shania who's doing 2 shows in Edmonton in a couple of weeks aren't coming to your City if you have a WHL size rink like Red Deer has. I would assume the citizens of Calgary expect their City has an arena big enough to attract bands like that. So even if the Flames aren't in the picture, at some point the Dome will be completely non functional for big concerts. Big bands have already been bi-passing Calgary and doing more than 1 show in Edmonton since Rogers opened. So at some point the City will have to replace the Dome even if the Flames aren't in the picture.

So let's say the City says screw it Flames, we aren't paying for nothing, the Dome is fine, you can use it if you want too. Eventually the Flames will have to leave. That's not a threat, that's the truth. There is all kinds of talk about Houston and Utah and maybe Atlanta getting a team back. Regardless, if the Flames need to go, I have no doubt in my mind they would find a place. Would it be a better market? Hard to say but eventually that building will no longer be NHL viable. It's getting to the point now based on players comments and the fact actually pieces of it are falling down. Eventually the building will no longer be economically viable for the Flames and they will go.

So when that happens, what then for the City and an arena? Like I said above, a City the size of Calgary has to have a venue that seats 17-19,000 to attract big City events. That's a fact. So if you play hardball and don't put a penny into it and ride out the dome until it collapses, eventually you have to build another one regardless if there is an NHL team. So guess who's on the hook for the whole project? Maybe you can dumb down the arena because you aren't housing an NHL team anymore but the bulk of that costs with all the needed improvements it needs, is now ALL on the City.

I agree with you on all of that. Edmonton is better with Rogers and the Oilers. The problem for me is when there's an imbalance between public capital cost and private benefits derived it becomes a scheme. Edmonton, for example, spends millions of dollars / year leasing space in the Edmonton Tower from a private business that got and gets massive tax breaks to build the tower. That's a scheme. The city of Edmonton owning Rogers Place but not getting paid rent is a scheme. The person who bought the old greyhound building land because he had knowledge of what was happening and getting the same giant tax break was also a scheme.

Basically I want the rent seeking acknowledged, for some hands to be slapped away from the public purse once in a while, and politicians not to be corrupt idiots. I still want to believe that a Canadian city having the NHL is possible with these conditions, but I'm not sure that it is.

Why do you care? If you acknowledge that the City of Edmonton is better with Rogers and they are a better place with the Oilers and their is a direct benefit to the City by being involved in building Rogers, why are you so hung up on the details? If it ended up being a good deal to the City and it's a better place because of it, isn't that what you want?

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Re: Flames arena [message #822191 is a reply to message #822190 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 10:27

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:11

Why do you care? If you acknowledge that the City of Edmonton is better with Rogers and they are a better place with the Oilers and their is a direct benefit to the City by being involved in building Rogers, why are you so hung up on the details? If it ended up being a good deal to the City and it's a better place because of it, isn't that what you want?

I care because it's my money that people are stealing. I think the details made it a bad deal for the people of the city and made live worse. The benefit of the Oilers and arena could still have been realized even if it wasn't a giant wealth transfer scheme.

I don't think wanting good government is that crazy of an idea.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822193 is a reply to message #822191 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 10:43

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:11

Why do you care? If you acknowledge that the City of Edmonton is better with Rogers and they are a better place with the Oilers and their is a direct benefit to the City by being involved in building Rogers, why are you so hung up on the details? If it ended up being a good deal to the City and it's a better place because of it, isn't that what you want?

I care because it's my money that people are stealing. I think the details made it a bad deal for the people of the city and made live worse. The benefit of the Oilers and arena could still have been realized even if it wasn't a giant wealth transfer scheme.

I don't think wanting good government is that crazy of an idea.

I guess we will never agree. In my line of work I deal with private developers as well as municipalities. Anytime there is a project proposed by a private developer, the municipality ALWAYS wants stuff for free. "You want an entrance on to this roadway, no problem. See that dysfunction existing intersection 3 blocks away from your development that we should fix right now. Our model shows that if this intersection on this day, at this time, if and this and that happens all at once, your development will cause traffic problems at that intersection so you need to fix our badly designed existing intersection because we don't want to pay for it so you can. " Or "you need a sanitary service for your development. No problem. That pipe you want to tie into that we have neglected, already know it's grossly under capacity and know it needs to be replace many years ago, well guess what, you get to upgrade for us. Thank you. If you don't want too, OK, no problem. Then you can't develop."

I deal with that crap all the time. Municipalities try to squeeze and screw over private developers all the time. Private developers try to squeeze and screw the City all the time. It's what happens all the time. So I have no issue when all sides play a hand and pay their part in a project.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822197 is a reply to message #822193 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 12:09

Oscargasm
Messages: 5911
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:43

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:11

Why do you care? If you acknowledge that the City of Edmonton is better with Rogers and they are a better place with the Oilers and their is a direct benefit to the City by being involved in building Rogers, why are you so hung up on the details? If it ended up being a good deal to the City and it's a better place because of it, isn't that what you want?

I care because it's my money that people are stealing. I think the details made it a bad deal for the people of the city and made live worse. The benefit of the Oilers and arena could still have been realized even if it wasn't a giant wealth transfer scheme.

I don't think wanting good government is that crazy of an idea.

I guess we will never agree. In my line of work I deal with private developers as well as municipalities. Anytime there is a project proposed by a private developer, the municipality ALWAYS wants stuff for free. "You want an entrance on to this roadway, no problem. See that dysfunction existing intersection 3 blocks away from your development that we should fix right now. Our model shows that if this intersection on this day, at this time, if and this and that happens all at once, your development will cause traffic problems at that intersection so you need to fix our badly designed existing intersection because we don't want to pay for it so you can. " Or "you need a sanitary service for your development. No problem. That pipe you want to tie into that we have neglected, already know it's grossly under capacity and know it needs to be replace many years ago, well guess what, you get to upgrade for us. Thank you. If you don't want too, OK, no problem. Then you can't develop."

I deal with that crap all the time. Municipalities try to squeeze and screw over private developers all the time. Private developers try to squeeze and screw the City all the time. It's what happens all the time. So I have no issue when all sides play a hand and pay their part in a project.

Sure but keep my hand and my money out of it. Do I get to watch an event live with the money from my taxes that will be going to the project? No.

DS is using my and our taxes to buy Calgary and the election. What do I get out of it? A health spending account to pay to visit my family doctor. lol.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822199 is a reply to message #822197 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 12:56

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 12:09

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:43

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 10:11

Why do you care? If you acknowledge that the City of Edmonton is better with Rogers and they are a better place with the Oilers and their is a direct benefit to the City by being involved in building Rogers, why are you so hung up on the details? If it ended up being a good deal to the City and it's a better place because of it, isn't that what you want?

I care because it's my money that people are stealing. I think the details made it a bad deal for the people of the city and made live worse. The benefit of the Oilers and arena could still have been realized even if it wasn't a giant wealth transfer scheme.

I don't think wanting good government is that crazy of an idea.

I guess we will never agree. In my line of work I deal with private developers as well as municipalities. Anytime there is a project proposed by a private developer, the municipality ALWAYS wants stuff for free. "You want an entrance on to this roadway, no problem. See that dysfunction existing intersection 3 blocks away from your development that we should fix right now. Our model shows that if this intersection on this day, at this time, if and this and that happens all at once, your development will cause traffic problems at that intersection so you need to fix our badly designed existing intersection because we don't want to pay for it so you can. " Or "you need a sanitary service for your development. No problem. That pipe you want to tie into that we have neglected, already know it's grossly under capacity and know it needs to be replace many years ago, well guess what, you get to upgrade for us. Thank you. If you don't want too, OK, no problem. Then you can't develop."

I deal with that crap all the time. Municipalities try to squeeze and screw over private developers all the time. Private developers try to squeeze and screw the City all the time. It's what happens all the time. So I have no issue when all sides play a hand and pay their part in a project.

Sure but keep my hand and my money out of it. Do I get to watch an event live with the money from my taxes that will be going to the project? No.

DS is using my and our taxes to buy Calgary and the election. What do I get out of it? A health spending account to pay to visit my family doctor. lol.

And this is what bothers me most about big government. They all inevitably start acting in their best interest, with our money, while also speaking for us.

RDO's example is a perfect show of how government act in their best interest and create a scenario where they are making life more expensive and worse for the people who are living there. It's shameful.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822203 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 13:52

feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

I see this falling apart after the election. NDP or UCP victory.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822205 is a reply to message #822203 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 17:21

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

feepa wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 13:52

I see this falling apart after the election. NDP or UCP victory.

The costs to build are all locked in too? Could be some absolutely wild swings in inflation jacking the prices up for all the materials/work needed in the next 2-3 years.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Flames arena [message #822208 is a reply to message #822205 ]	Wed, 26 April 2023 18:18

Oscargasm
Messages: 5911
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 17:21

feepa wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 13:52

I see this falling apart after the election. NDP or UCP victory.

The costs to build are all locked in too? Could be some absolutely wild swings in inflation jacking the prices up for all the materials/work needed in the next 2-3 years.

Maybe they’ll orchestrate a convoy to pay for it

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Re: Flames arena [message #822234 is a reply to message #822208 ]	Thu, 27 April 2023 14:15

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 18:18

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 17:21

feepa wrote on Wed, 26 April 2023 13:52

I see this falling apart after the election. NDP or UCP victory.

The costs to build are all locked in too? Could be some absolutely wild swings in inflation jacking the prices up for all the materials/work needed in the next 2-3 years.

Maybe they’ll orchestrate a convoy to pay for it

Saw an article about this. Sounds like the city will be on the hook for any cost overruns. That's crazy risky right now for the city to take on.

I also enjoy how in the proposal all the private money has a note of how much their up front money is worth in future dollars, to make it seem like they are contributing so much more. While city and govt money just stays in today dollars, and no mention of how the costs could all just run wild if there is a 2nd wave of inflation which almost always happens.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Flames arena [message #822232 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Thu, 27 April 2023 14:01

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

How much money did Edmonton get from the Provincial government for the their facility compared to what Bovine-ville will be getting?

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Re: Flames arena [message #822233 is a reply to message #822232 ]	Thu, 27 April 2023 14:11

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 27 April 2023 14:01

How much money did Edmonton get from the Provincial government for the their facility compared to what Bovine-ville will be getting?

Looks like 7 million direct from the province and feds and probably some indirect support for infrastructure. The confusing part is the community revitalization levy, which I think is funded by the province to lets cities borrow against future tax revenue. The whole thing is pretty nebulous.

https://www.edmonton.ca/attractions_events/rogers_place/the- agreement
https://www.edmonton.ca/sites/default/files/public-files/doc uments/PDF/Downtown_Arena_Financial_Framework_Details.pdf

Adding: so of the arena's total cost of $613M (arena, pedway, rink, land, lrt) the city paid $81M with another $231 coming from the city / province through future taxes that the public will be on the hook for when the tax gains aren't realized. Plus someone has to pay interest, which pretty low until 12 months ago. I think the big scam is offering tax breaks at the same time as borrowing against tax increases.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 April 2023 14:14]

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Re: Flames arena [message #822242 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Thu, 27 April 2023 17:43

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Goose wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:07

I thought there was a thread about this already, but I couldn't find it. Anyways:

Quote:

The City of Calgary has reached agreements, in principle, with the province, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) and Calgary Stampede to proceed forward with the creation of the Culture + Entertainment District in downtown Calgary, including a new and publicly-owned event centre.

The deal is valued at $1.2 billion

The City of Calgary is contributing 44 per cent, or $537.3 million, and 56 per cent is being contributed by both the province ($330 million) and Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation ($356 million).

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-hosting-important-arena-a nnouncement-on-tuesday-afternoon-1.6370698

Devil will be in the details, but must be nice to get the government to put over $850M into a project to support your professional sports team.

I thought it was ~ $330 million from AB, which is $330 million more than was put into Rogers/ice district by the province. $850 including city of Calgary?

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Re: Flames arena [message #822442 is a reply to message #822242 ]	Mon, 01 May 2023 14:02

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

K.McC#24 wrote on Thu, 27 April 2023 16:43

Goose wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:07

I thought there was a thread about this already, but I couldn't find it. Anyways:

Quote:

The City of Calgary has reached agreements, in principle, with the province, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) and Calgary Stampede to proceed forward with the creation of the Culture + Entertainment District in downtown Calgary, including a new and publicly-owned event centre.

The deal is valued at $1.2 billion

The City of Calgary is contributing 44 per cent, or $537.3 million, and 56 per cent is being contributed by both the province ($330 million) and Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation ($356 million).

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-hosting-important-arena-a nnouncement-on-tuesday-afternoon-1.6370698

Devil will be in the details, but must be nice to get the government to put over $850M into a project to support your professional sports team.

I thought it was ~ $330 million from AB, which is $330 million more than was put into Rogers/ice district by the province. $850 including city of Calgary?

Ya, $537M from the City of Calgary and $330M from the province.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822445 is a reply to message #822442 ]	Mon, 01 May 2023 14:30

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Goose wrote on Mon, 01 May 2023 14:02

K.McC#24 wrote on Thu, 27 April 2023 16:43

Goose wrote on Tue, 25 April 2023 16:07

I thought there was a thread about this already, but I couldn't find it. Anyways:

Quote:

The City of Calgary has reached agreements, in principle, with the province, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) and Calgary Stampede to proceed forward with the creation of the Culture + Entertainment District in downtown Calgary, including a new and publicly-owned event centre.

The deal is valued at $1.2 billion

The City of Calgary is contributing 44 per cent, or $537.3 million, and 56 per cent is being contributed by both the province ($330 million) and Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation ($356 million).

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-hosting-important-arena-a nnouncement-on-tuesday-afternoon-1.6370698

Devil will be in the details, but must be nice to get the government to put over $850M into a project to support your professional sports team.

I thought it was ~ $330 million from AB, which is $330 million more than was put into Rogers/ice district by the province. $850 including city of Calgary?

Ya, $537M from the City of Calgary and $330M from the province.

Yes, but the Flames ownership is putting in $150 Trillion in year 2156 dollars.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Flames arena [message #822511 is a reply to message #822029 ]	Wed, 03 May 2023 10:51

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

I find it funny how Flames ownership didn't buyout the rest of Sutter's contract until securing provincial funds for their new stadium....

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Re: Flames arena [message #822513 is a reply to message #822511 ]	Wed, 03 May 2023 10:53

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Wed, 03 May 2023 10:51

I find it funny how Flames ownership didn't buyout the rest of Sutter's contract until securing provincial funds for their new stadium....

The Sutter buyout costs 19 Billion dollars in 2102 dollars. Lames fans better be thankful.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Flames arena [message #822524 is a reply to message #822513 ]	Wed, 03 May 2023 13:07

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

https://twitter.com/tempe_wins/status/1653490038561439745?s= 46&t=TluP5bmYzF23LCu_ZAlu5Q
Tempe is using the Flames deal as an example of how not to fund an arena project.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Flames arena [message #822540 is a reply to message #822524 ]	Wed, 03 May 2023 16:27

Oscargasm
Messages: 5911
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 03 May 2023 13:07

https://twitter.com/tempe_wins/status/1653490038561439745?s= 46&t=TluP5bmYzF23LCu_ZAlu5Q
Tempe is using the Flames deal as an example of how not to fund an arena project.

There must not be an election in Arizona for Governor around the corner.

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