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Holland confirmed gone [message #837126]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:04

Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Hooray! The old guy is gone.

Now, who's up?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837127 is a reply to message #837126 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:22

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:04

Hooray! The old guy is gone.

Now, who's up?

I like how it's worded like the Oilers were waiting for Holland to tell them he is no longer interested in continuing here.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRFf2hYXIAEl4oZ?format=jpg&name=small

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837128 is a reply to message #837126 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:24

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Where do we apply?

External candidates:
Jeff Gorton
Chris McFarland
Mathieu Darche or Jamie Pushor (TBay ties)
Colin Campbell's kid

Internal candidates:
Brad Holland
Keith Gretzky

I am hopeful a lot of the leg work has already been on this.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837129 is a reply to message #837128 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:30

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:24

I would be extremely surprised if Jackson hasn't done a lot of leg work already. I am guessing the decision to not have him back as GM was made awhile ago. My guess is probably both sides. Jackson wanting new eyes, Holland maybe not wanting to have to commit the hours it takes to be a GM, he is turning 69 this year. At some point at that age you'd like to not be working all the time.

My guess is, there was an offer for him to take on a advisor role. Whether or not a person liked him as a GM, he still brings extreme experience, contacts and knowledge that is a valuable resource. He's been there, done that and has probably experienced things that the new guy hasn't or won't anticipate. He's not worthless and I think anyone who would suggest that is a complete idiot and is truly clueless.

My guess is he decided not to take on an advisory role which is his right.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837130 is a reply to message #837128 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:39

nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 09:24

Colin Campbell’s kid. I’m tired of fighting the league and officials. I want them in our back pocket.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837131 is a reply to message #837130 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 10:50

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:39

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 09:24

Colin Campbell’s kid. I’m tired of fighting the league and officials. I want them in our back pocket.

That's a 5D chess move right there.

With our luck Campbell will retire right after we hire his kid though.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837132 is a reply to message #837131 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 11:11

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:50

nullterm wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:39

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 09:24

Colin Campbell’s kid. I’m tired of fighting the league and officials. I want them in our back pocket.

That's a 5D chess move right there.

With our luck Campbell will retire right after we hire his kid though.

Campbell's kid, and does Parros have any relatives in hockey? Get one of them too.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837133 is a reply to message #837129 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 11:15

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:30

He's not worthless and I think anyone who would suggest that is a complete idiot and is truly clueless.

You are saying if someone doesn't share your opinion they are idiots and clueless? Belief superiority much? Wow....

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837136 is a reply to message #837126 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 12:13

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

So long and thanks for all the fish.

I have more faith about the selection process now than I did when holland was hired. Like many others, I really hope this was all planned out for months and the search was thorough but has now been concluded with the new guy ready to go for the draft and free agency.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837137 is a reply to message #837133 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Mike wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 11:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:30

He's not worthless and I think anyone who would suggest that is a complete idiot and is truly clueless.

You are saying if someone doesn't share your opinion they are idiots and clueless? Belief superiority much? Wow....

A person may not like him as a GM, they may not agree with all of his moves, but he's done the job a long time and had a lot of success doing it. The Oilers team today, is way way better than what it was when he took it over. So while moving on from him is the right thing to do for the Oilers to get in a fresh set of eyes and ideas, the experience and knowledge Holland has still has some value. So he's not worthless.

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837138 is a reply to message #837126 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 13:12

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

After listening to Jackson today, he does not sound like he wants to rush the process and is going to be the interim GM. Draft pick scouting is done and I do not think we will be big draft day wheeler and dealers with only one 2nd rounder and 4 combined picks in the 6th and 7th rounds.

A Campbell trade or buyout, along with moving out Ceci will likely happen with the current management group and likely makes the new job even more appealing. The new GM will have influence on the Draisaitl deal and will likely be his/her(you never know) number one priority.

My biggest takeaway from the presser was the negotiations won't be rushed until after Connor's wedding and both McDavid and Draisaitl will be meeting with the new GM to discuss their long-term futures. Too me, this sounds very transparent and smart of JJ.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 June 2024 13:15]

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837139 is a reply to message #837138 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 13:35

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Co-GM's Gretzky and Holland!

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837140 is a reply to message #837138 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 13:36

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:12

Sounded like Jackson is targeting guys that are still high up in other orgs. Complicates stuff having to get permission to talk right in the middle of such a busy time for every team.

Guess it is what it is, you want access to the largest pool of ppl possible (omg, not just another Hockey Canada bro???). Only really opens up after the year is really done, unless some team is really generous letting someone leave early.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837141 is a reply to message #837140 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 13:58

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Side note, if we did fire Holland much earlier this year, a lot of guys Jackson wants now would probably have been available. It's far harder for a team to tell an employee below GM that they are going to block them from a massive once in a lifetime career opportunity, that will vanish quickly, when there is still half a year + left in the season.

Oh well though, we wouldn't have got an old guy that busted his ankle, and a faceoff expert that can't play hockey, for a 1st round pick if we did something as rash as releasing Holland early. Also might have done something crazy like putting Kane on LTIR and added an extra 5M player, plus healthy Kane for playoffs if we hired a creative GM mid-season. Gross.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 June 2024 18:57]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837142 is a reply to message #837127 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 14:04

Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:22

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:04

Hooray! The old guy is gone.

Now, who's up?

I like how it's worded like the Oilers were waiting for Holland to tell them he is no longer interested in continuing here.

I think Holland's camp was the first to break the news to media guys because almost all the initial news read this way. Jackson's press release certainly puts a bit of a different spin on it...it's a "mutual decision" to disengage. It does not sound like the team was interested in having him back in that role, which I think is a credit to Jackson. Wrong man for that role.

As for "special advisor" positions, I don't think they work well, for the same reason that all Lowe's goofy post-GM totally-non-hockey-ops-related-but-great-sounding-board positions didn't work. It's tough to see someone doing your old job and not want to interfere, especially at the point where they start doing things differently.

To use an example from history, William Howard Taft was the hand-picked successor to Theodore Roosevelt to be President of the US. Comfortable with Taft taking over and pushing forward his priorities, Roosevelt retired and supported him in the 1908 Election which Taft won in a landslide. But despite being the protege of Roosevelt, Taft wasn't the same person and didn't have all the same views and once he became President, he looked to put his own stamp on the office. He was not an incompetent President, but he and Roosevelt did not see eye to eye which led to such a high level of conflict that Roosevelt ran as a third party (awesomely for the Bull Moose Party) in the 2012 election, splitting the Republican vote (TR is by far the most successful third party candidate in US history with over 28% of the popular vote, and way more electoral college votes than Taft, throwing the election over to the Democratic Nominee Woodrow Wilson.

Lowe, similarly could not stay uninvolved with various administrations, and in his role he had the owners ears, so ultimately he steered the ship. Holland might not have the same sway, but it's still a recipe for conflict if he stays and chafes as the next occupant of his office does things differently (and god, they better do things differently, because if we just keep trying to run this team like it's 1998, we're never going to succeed).

Holland's deal ending is a blessing, and the Oilers should be thrilled to see him move off in to the sunset. Personally, I REALLY REALLY hope that someone else signs him. It is an absolute gift if there's a GM out there for a rival team who doesn't believe in trying to win trades, who isn't willing to use cap avoidance of any sort, and who has zero urgency to make his team better.

Of course, on the other hand, we are losing out on a lot of rambling anecdotes about the Red Wings from 25 years ago and I am sure he probably knows a lot of people or something too.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837144 is a reply to message #837137 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49

Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

RDOF - while I appreciate your additions to the discourse here, I think that you probably owe an apology for this lack of decorum. I can only imagine the extremely long message you'd have typed out if the tables were turned and someone said flat out that they thought you were a clueless idiot for your views.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837145 is a reply to message #837144 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 15:04

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

Nope, I do not. I stand by what I said. If someone is going to say Holland is worthless, it's a stupid comment because it's so utterly, ridiculously false. The definition of worthless is having no real value or use. A person doesn't have to personally like Holland as a GM or his style or all the moves he made. That's totally fine. He made mistakes as the Wings GM and as the Oilers GM. No denying that. But he's not worthless and that's what my comment said. He's got a ton of experience as a hockey exec, so there is value in that. A person can even go so far as to debate the level of value his experience brings but there is still value in his experience. Doesn't mean he should be the GM of the Oilers but he's not worthless.

So I have nothing to apologize for.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837148 is a reply to message #837145 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 15:30

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 18:04

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

Well I think you’re a clueless idiot then.

I think Holland has been lucky more than he had been good over his career. Ask Wings fans how they feel about his last few years there.

As for his time with the Oilers, if I’m going to critique what I think are franchise crippling moves, I need to give him some credit for the good ones.

Keith was a monumentally stupid deal for all the reasons already talked about a million times.
Nurse contract was ludicrous, especially the structure of it.
Not inking Bouchard long term when he by all accounts could have was a misstep that’s going to cost us.

I don’t fault him too much for Campbell. I didn’t love it, and it turned out horribly, but it wasn’t seem as the worst deal ever at the time. What was terrible though was trotting out Smith and Koskinen for what? 4 years in a row? Especially with the plethora of guys who could be had for a song leading up to the Kraken draft.

The good stuff - I think RNH is a pretty good signing. Ekholm has been awesome, regardless what the pick turns into, no regrets. I think he will be responsible for Bouchard taking a step he would never have taken with the likes of Nurse or Kulak or whoever else. And Hyman? Might be the best UFA signing ever. Can’t give him full marks as Hymans camp came knocking, but he did put pen to paper, so fine.

All that to say, he left the Wings in shambles, and though he has improved some parts of this team, he leaves us in a pretty tight spot.

But where I think he is less than useless for the Oilers is for all the stuff Adam mentioned. You are never free to do your job when the guy you replaced is still hanging around in a position of power. If he is not the GM (which I don’t want him to be), I want him nowhere near the team. He is 100% “Worthless” to the Oilers

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837149 is a reply to message #837148 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 15:48

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Mike wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 18:04

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

Well I think you’re a clueless idiot then.

Great. I have zero respect for you or anything you say so think what you like.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837150 is a reply to message #837149 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 18:39

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I can hear the tears coming as you type.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837151 is a reply to message #837149 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 18:48

PlusOne
Messages: 1594
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:48

Mike wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 18:04

Adam wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

Well I think you’re a clueless idiot then.

Great. I have zero respect for you or anything you say so think what you like.

JFC you are insufferable RDOF. Do you keep a list of people on here that you have been offended by, told off or otherwise been a total prick to?

The list would be long so I am not sure how you keep track of all of your grudges. The fun thing that ties all of your invented enemies together is they all have hockey takes that dwarf your lack of understanding.
I had really hoped you would get tired of being wrong so often and slink off to another part of the internet. Perhaps one where you can feel important and superior in spite of your lack of hockey knowledge. HFboards would love you.

On topic. Holland did very little to improve the team. His mistakes were worse than his successes and he showed zero creativity or adaptability within the current hockey climate. I solid argument can, and has, been made that the improved in spite of his errors.
I am glad that era is over and have hope that we find a future where the cap is managed with skill and the team can keep it's stars.

Typing that, I realized that RDOF and Holland have that in common. They are wrong way more than they are right.

Survivor LX(I) and 67 Champ(i)on

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837155 is a reply to message #837126 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 19:56

Suomalainen
Messages: 900
Registered: May 2002
Location: Boulder, CO

No Cups

This is like a weird friend of a friend of a friend thing, so pretty much the equivalent of an internet rumour, but Eric Francis (yuk) told a buddy of mine in Calgary that it's trending towards Mark Hunter.

97.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837156 is a reply to message #837155 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 20:11

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Oh no!!! The usual clowns are insulting me.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837157 is a reply to message #837148 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 21:39

HamBlaster
Messages: 989
Registered: June 2007

No Cups

I'm going to come to RDOF's defense here. I think his assessment of people being clueless and idiots is harsh (and probably could use an apology), but I agree with his feelings on Holland. The guy is one of the iconic GMs of this era, and not for the wrong reasons. He's done well over his career.

Keith was a "monumentally stupid move"? Why? You picked up a former Norris trophy winner for an AHL D-man and a magic bean, and he played well enough for the Oilers for a season while also providing Norris-level guidance to the D core and elevating the overall understanding of the team of what it takes to compete for the Cup. That trade was at worst a wash and at best a great mentorship opportunity for the rest of the squad. Keith always had that competitive edge and the Oilers grew during his time here, and he continues to share his experience as a player development consultant for the team now. I see this trade as a win for the Oil.

The Nurse contract is a bad contract when viewed with the benefit of hindsight, without a doubt, but Holland was handcuffed more than a little. A. Nurse is (and might still be) one of Connor's boys, and I'm sure he was advocating for him to be signed long-term. The Oilers may not be able to get rid of that contract in part due to CMac's relationship. B. Chicago signing Seth Jones to his ludicrous contract forced the Oilers hand, due to the comparable. C. The Oilers were in limbo land due to the Klefbom injury and Larsson having left as a FA for Seattle. He NEEDED Nurse, more than Nurse needed him at the time. D. Who honestly would have expected Nurse to regress during this contract? He was still young, appeared to be improving still and seemed locked in on the top pairing at the time. Who honestly would have foreseen Bouchard turning into an Al MacInnis clone and an elite 1A? It was only after Ekholm replaced Nurse in that pairing that Bouchard turned a massive corner. And who takes responsibility for the Ekholm trade (who no one saw coming, and I rate the impact of nearly the same as the Pronger trade)? Ken does. That Ekholm trade is incredible, in hindsight. The guy plays great D, is oddly clutch to score when the Oil need it, and made Bouchard a monster. I'm sure Holland would have much rather had Nurse at 5 or 6M, but Jones' contract changed the benchmark value dramatically. Could he have signed him before Jones signed? Maybe, but it's possible that the rumblings of the potential numbers made Darnell sit on the fence for a bit to see how it all shook out. This one was a loss for the Oil, but one that isn't entirely Holland's fault. Keith and Ekholm have helped Bouch turn into the player he is now, so that's two more wins (Ek and Bouch). By my count, we're at two big wins (Ek and Bouch), one less significant win (Keith) versus one handcuffed loss (Nurse).

Let's continue.

Campbell was a very bad signing, however Holland's FA options were limited that offseason. Jack was coming off of a very poor showing in the playoffs with the Leafs and seemed to be at risk of being shaky the following season. They signed him based on the regular season and his draft pedigree, and it didn't work out at all. They should have looked for a trade, but that would have meant trading away talent from a somewhat bare cupboard. He went the FA route and it didn't work out. That's a top-tier loss for the Oilers.

Hyman... an all time win, not just for the Oilers but for the whole history of the NHL. Easily one of the best FA signings in the last twenty years. No more needs to be said about that. Incredible value on that contract and hopefully a long-term stud on the wing for McDavid / Drai. Guy is unreal. I'm scoring that as another big win. Scoring is at three big wins and one smaller win against a clear loss and a handcuffed loss.

Kane was absolutely worth taking a flyer on, and it worked out, especially that first year. He was Hyman before Hyman, and the demotion to the second and then third lines, coupled with injuries, took the wind out of his sails. Still an impact player when healthy though and it'll be interesting to see what he brings next season. I count that as a win. Could Holland have taken him out of the lineup and tried to use the cap room to bring in someone else? Sure... but if Kane somehow managed to get healthy, he would have been an absolute force. Still had a decent playoffs, while noticeably injured. I'll count the lack of LTIR use in this playoffs as a loss, so Kane is a wash.

Broberg... looks like a win, and could be a big win eventually. It takes some defensemen a longer time to develop and Broberg seems to have needed some seasoning. My god did it do wonders for the guy's game though. He looks like a lock for a top 4 role next season, and there's more in his game that will come. He could be a great fit beside Bouch in the coming years if they can't resign Ekholm. Win.

Hollywood is a win. He'll be a role player for the foreseeable future and could develop into a regular scoring threat. Awesome energy player though and defensively responsible. Another win.

I'll count the signings of Janmark and Brown as neutrals, as both really didn't contribute much in the regular season, but were horses in the playoffs. Maybe slight wins because of that penalty kill and the incredibly timely goals.

Nuge should always be an Oiler. Pretty good value contract as well. Win.

These are the meaningful deals and moves that he made while with the Oil.

The way I count it, I see three big wins, five smaller wins and two neutrals that lean towards wins against one very clear loss, one handcuffed and significant loss and one smaller loss.

To me, that's a pretty solid record when it comes to significant changes made to this team. I respect what Ken did for this squad and thank him for his efforts.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 June 2024 21:51]

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837158 is a reply to message #837151 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 22:31

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Almost googled JFC before that took hold.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837159 is a reply to message #837157 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 22:40

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

The issue with Keith was that Chicago never retained. That snowballed into giving Chicago the cap space to overpay Jones, and in addition we traded his brother to the Hawks to give them more leverage in enticing a family reunion.

The Jones deal reshaped and set the market that year and caused the Nurse overpay. If Holland demanded full retention the market probably completely changes. Was a year of Keith mentoring Bouchard worth 8 years of 9.25M of Nurse? Who’s to say Bouchard doesn’t take that next step anyway. Feels like Ekholm and Coffey have been the ones to push him over the top.

Not a Holland fan. I wish him well and enjoy a long retirement or cushy gig as an advisor.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837160 is a reply to message #837159 ]	Thu, 27 June 2024 23:02

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 22:40

On Bouch. I think elite players always find a way. You can't teach a player to be smart and be able to put the pieces together and keep adding new things to their game. They will always find a way themselves and seek out the help they need to add elements. Think the Oilers media and many fans natural instinct to crap on Bouch early in his career, like many other offensive D before him, is what leads people to always need to give everyone but Bouch credit for his own development.

What we really needed with Bouch is a GM and pro scouting/evaluation staff that knew what we had in him years ago. We totally misevaluated, and will pay heavily for it.

Coffey definitely gave our D confidence. Knob too, because they all got to escape whatever ridiculous thing Woody was trying to make the team do, and giving players video montages of all their mistakes trying to play a system that set them up to fail. In the end though, the same kinds of defensive mishaps kept happening from the same people. The overall team game was better to compensate for it, but key mistakes burned us here and there, extended the 2nd round, helped put us down 0-3 in the finals.

Am I off-topic enough from Holland talk? :) Generally trying to say we still need better D. Holland never fixed it. Jacksons coach choice worked around it as well as anyone could have dreamed, but it still wasn't enough. The new GM still has to do the job that was never done. He's lucky he has Chiarelli's pick of an elite D to start with though. And hopefully Nashville's cap dump that was at the top of the TSN D-men available board, that Nashville was happy to give away for a 1st and Barrie, has many years left to play at a high level too.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 June 2024 23:04]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837166 is a reply to message #837156 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 00:49

MJ
Messages: 267
Registered: November 1997
Location: Victoria

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 19:11

Oh no!!! The usual clowns are insulting me.

And with that, I pull out the ban hammer for the first time in years. Community moderation attempted and failed to resolve the issue through the day, so I did. If I was around to moderate, this would have stopped at the first direct insult. Instead, this individual decided to double and triple down as the thread continued. Enough is enough. Not the first time, definitely the last time.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837169 is a reply to message #837137 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 08:59

Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31

So if you are going to say Holland is worthless, then Yes Mike, I think you are an idiot and clueless.

Poor form RD. You owe him an apology.

Not sure if you remember this or not but this is an opinion based forum, you're free to disagree and counterpoint, but name calling just shows a weakness of your character.

You once spoke of this place saying that you couldn't express an opinion without being "shouted down", everyone said as long as your disagreement is civil feel free to go against the grain (which you do often), however you're shouting down anyone on this forum with your myopic view.

Be better... because you're giving off the vibes of Marjorie Taylor Greene here.

=======

Back to topic.

I think Holland has done a decent job actually. He got rid of Lucic which was basically unmovable with the real deal, Hyman fell into his latop and locked up Nuge long term. Ekholm was an excellent get. Show me another GM who has made mistake free moves? Do you really want a guy to I don't know to trade your 16 and 33 overall picks again for a troubled defender??? Sorry folks, Holland was good for the franchise.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837170 is a reply to message #837169 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 09:23

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 08:59

Back to topic.

I think Holland has done a decent job actually. He got rid of Lucic which was basically unmovable with the real deal, Hyman fell into his latop and locked up Nuge long term. Ekholm was an excellent get. Show me another GM who has made mistake free moves? Do you really want a guy to I don't know to trade your 16 and 33 overall picks again for a troubled defender??? Sorry folks, Holland was good for the franchise.

The Lucic seems like eons ago, and it’s one that I forgot about. Still caused cap issues, but it was likely the right move. It was becoming a cancer.
Hyman, like you said fell into his lap, but what a return on an investment.
Nuge was a great deal, but was he ever going anywhere?
Ekholm was a stroke of genius. Best deal to date.
Kane was a great gamble. Injuries are sucking the life out of that win.

* I just can’t get past the Keith deal and the following Nurse signing.
* Campbell was a bad deal, but not many thought it would as bad and as instant.
* Bouchard bridge and now it’s looking like trouble.
* Kassian deal was beyond rough and costly.
* Tyler Wright is proving Wings fans correct. Not much has been done with draft acquisitions under Holland. Broberg and Holloway appear to be busting out.
* Ceci ….
* Turris getting 2 years at 1.6M per. Smaller deal but death by a 1000 cuts

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837171 is a reply to message #837166 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 10:55

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Nice. Always skipped his long winded overly emotional content.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837173 is a reply to message #837171 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 13:32

inverno76
Messages: 2342
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 10:55

Nice. Always skipped his long winded overly emotional content.

I cringed many times, but he had a nice hard blend of HFBoards and a sprinkling of Oilfans. The chaos was fun once in a while, but the last couple months were getting progressively worse.

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837175 is a reply to message #837173 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 14:51

Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 13:32

smyth260 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 10:55

Nice. Always skipped his long winded overly emotional content.

I cringed many times, but he had a nice hard blend of HFBoards and a sprinkling of Oilfans. The chaos was fun once in a while, but the last couple months were getting progressively worse.

It is really unfortunate. He creates content, and that's important for a message board. You need someone arguing.

I just wish it wasn't always personal with him - both believing that anyone disagreeing with him is making some kind of personal attack, as well as developing really vitriolic feelings towards those he disagrees with.

Hopefully he's back at some point and hopefully he's able to do better at separating his opinions from his emotions. We are just talking about a hockey team here after all. It's hardly life & death.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837177 is a reply to message #837175 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 14:56

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 14:51

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 13:32

smyth260 wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 10:55

Nice. Always skipped his long winded overly emotional content.

I cringed many times, but he had a nice hard blend of HFBoards and a sprinkling of Oilfans. The chaos was fun once in a while, but the last couple months were getting progressively worse.

I do feel like a huge amount of the fan base, and oilers media, have opinions very in line with RDO, so his viewpoint was a good add to the forum.

But yeah, the personal stuff, taking offense really easily, just took things off the rails.

There is bashing players and management, or defending them to no end. Everyone has their ideas how to fix the mess we've watched for over a decade. I think that's what sports forums are all about, and arguing points back and forth. But when it flips to saying people are stupid or emotional for having opinions, conversation usually goes to a bad spot. Or if bashing of a player/manager has no real basis, playing victim if anyone asks you to back it up with something of substance.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2024 14:58]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837181 is a reply to message #837169 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 16:56

Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

HamBlaster wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 21:39

Rocksteady wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 08:59

I think Holland has done a decent job actually. He got rid of Lucic which was basically unmovable with the real deal, Hyman fell into his latop and locked up Nuge long term. Ekholm was an excellent get. Show me another GM who has made mistake free moves? Do you really want a guy to I don't know to trade your 16 and 33 overall picks again for a troubled defender??? Sorry folks, Holland was good for the franchise.

I'd like to counter these points here a little.

I agree that there's two clear wins for Ken Holland - Zach Hyman and Matthias Ekholm.

He has a few things like the Nuge signing that aren't bad, but they're not anything amazing either. It's just re-upping a guy who was here a long time to another deal. Yes, we could have lost him, but signing an extension that isn't a complete albatross is nothing to commend a general manager for - to me, that's just base level expectations.

Other than Ekholm though the trades are so bad. He generally was unable to meaningfully help the Oilers with the deals, almost all of which come right at the trade deadline, and in most cases it can be shown he overpaid relative to the market. I definitely hold against him the fact that he's on record saying it would be a bad thing to win trades and I believe his track record shows that he really believes that. He's over-generous over and over again - making me wonder if he isn't right along with Bobby Nicholson in believing that someday the other teams are just going to help him out. That day just never came.

His overpayments add-up too, as those are assets that we don't have to address other issues. You look at the throw in of Kesselring to Arizona last year and it sure looks like a total unforced error.

Holland has tried to brag up the Lucic/Neal trade as we were able to buy out James Neal two seasons after that trade, but A) no one here should be under the illusion that that was Holland's game plan, and B) that's still a buyout that ate up cap space for 4 years. Neal joins Connor Brown and Corey Perry as guys eating up the next GMs cap space for next season.

The contract for Nuge is pretty well the exception on deals that aren't too long or for too much. I kind of feel like Holland doesn't think he should try to win at players' contracts either, because he's sure generous. You go down the list of people he signed and he's regularly gave extra years beyond their usefulness, or just flat out too much. Kassian and Nurse are some of the biggest offenders, but Ceci getting 4 years at $3.25MM given what his couple seasons ahead of that had been was a stretch - you have to think we could have had half that time and more flexibility. Given what we had in house, Kulak was always a stretch to play above the third pairing, but we gave him $2.75 for four years too. Those contracts aren't albatrosses, but they hurt your flexibility and when those guys move to the bottom of your depth chart, that's a lot to spend on them. Kane got a four year deal too...and I just pray someone is still willing to take that one on now to save us from it.

Meanwhile, he didn't go long on younger more talented defencemen - despite the template that the Oscar Klefbom contract set for the team. One of the reasons Nurse is so expensive now is that the team bridged him on the prior deal. And then last summer they duplicated that mistake with Evan Bouchard...something that will cost the team MILLIONS in the future.

Other than Hyman, there just haven't been really much for free agent signings that have moved the needle. Most of the summer free agents have been journeymen and depth players, many of whom have some familiarity to Holland through the Detroit system.

As with Detroit, Holland has a tendency to prefer older players to bringing up good younger players in depth roles and he's made us the oldest team in the league. That showed at times though in the playoffs as some of those guys struggle to keep up. Where the coaching staff finally used younger legs, the team was the better for it.

The draft record is spotty for sure. I believe that both Holloway and Broberg are NHL players and will be contributors for the Oilers. But if you look at the players that we passed up, it's going to be hard for them to ever really cover that bet. Bourgault has some promise too but compare him to Wyatt Johnson or the Minny goalie prospect and it leaves some questions there. We've seen none of his depth picks surface yet with any real solid promise.

The goaltending has been the biggest constant fail. He's relied on an ancient, an inconsistent, and an unknown as his three real starters. Plus of course Jack Campbell, who has been a complete and total trainwreck.

His understanding of the cap seems poor at best. His willingness to be creative in finding ways to make the team better is probably at best a D-. His ability to inspire and motivate is exceptionally low - this is a GM who in Year 2 was telling the team that he didn't think they were ready to compete - only to see lowly Montreal come out of our division and go to the Cup Final.

And this is the guy who got paid more than anyone else to do that job!??!

Oh, and his stories are dated, long-winded and boring too.

In short, I'm not a fan, and think his time in Edmonton has just squandered several years of Prime McDavid.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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