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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800100 is a reply to message #800090 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 11:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 10:23

K.McC#24 wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 17:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 12:57

Adam wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 12:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 12:35

Adam wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 11:33

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 17 February 2022 03:16

K.McC#24 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2022 23:27

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 16 February 2022 20:45

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 16 February 2022 20:24

Holloway has gone stone cold the last few games.. maybe don't call him up just yet..


Ya, give the kid time.


Hopefully Anderson is good at developing players down there, Their best staff are no longer there.


Thats my worry.
I'd actually spend almost the same on coaching salary down there as up with the Oilers.. coaching down there might even be more important.. they keep saying the NHL is not a development league.. and its not.. your most important assets are the draft picks that need to develop and play NHL.. while still being able to pay ELC.


I had zero expectations that the kid, just out of his teens, was going to be an NHL player this year. Development isn't a straight road, and he'll have some ups and downs. This is his first year as a pro, and he's coming off a major injury. Count this as development time, and worry more about his results next year.

There's some comments on Holloway's performance from @bcurlock - the same guy Gregor steals his info on the Condors from. He's saying that Sceviour and Malone are playing with Holloway, and they just aren't converting on the opportunities he's creating.

Quote:

bcurlock@bcurlockI got some DMs about Holloway not scoring again. He was good last night when he played. Regrettably the Condors took 15 PIMs. He doesn't kill penalties.

He shouldn't be playing with Malone/Sceviour. He creates, it dies with them a lot.

But every game, he does this 6-8 times.
***video of Holloway on the cycle***


bcurlock@bcurlock
Honestly folks, the only people that are going to love his game more than the fans every night are 97, 29 and 93.


bcurlock@bcurlock·
Yeah Malone and Sceviour aren't great fits. He puts the puck in good spots for them and it dies.

Holloway will bring a 200 foot game. Another thing I am noticing is that despite being LW, the Condors seem to be ok with him playing the C position in his own zone at times.




You literally said at 20 yrs old playing a way harder position than forward that Broberg is a draft fail because the Oilers didn't take the shiny toy that was Zegras. Then here you say that players don't develop in a straight line and at just barely out of his teens, we shouldn't be expecting Holloway to be an NHLer this year.

For the record, this is Broberg's first year playing hockey in North American which is an adjustment for European players. Broberg turns 21 in June 25, Holloway turns 21 in Sept 23. So Broberg is a bust because he's 3 months older than Holloway.


A couple of things here:

First and most importantly, I wasn't comparing Broberg to Holloway, nor was I suggesting that Broberg isn't a real NHL prospect. I was specifically comparing him to the guy picked one pick after him. The guy who all the ratings had projected as the better bet, but who the Oilers decided to bypass because a Swedish defenceman was too hard to pass up.

If you did want to compare them, draft position and draft year matters. Broberg was a top-ten draft pick, and picked a year earlier. He should be ahead of Holloway on both counts. He is too - he's played big minutes in the AHL and done pretty well and he's had a couple tastes of NHL hockey too. So both players are on track as prospects.

That doesn't mean that Broberg was the right pick in that spot though.

Worth noting, when we're having a similar conversation about Bourgault in a couple of years, it's not because I hate him or don't think he's a real prospect, but because the Oilers traded back and left Jesper Wallstedt to be the next great Minnesota Wild goalie.

The whole point of my reply was you are looking at Zegra right now and comparing him to Broberg. Right now, does Zegras look great with his lacrosse goals, you bet. He sure looks flashy and talented, no doubt about it. But in a year or 2 from now, if Broberg lives up to his potential and he's in the Oilers second pair rushing and moving pucks and giving you 20 mins a night, that pick will look pretty good in my opinion.


Weren't you mere days ago directly comparing Niemelainen to Benson, or am I misremembering?

Not even close to the same context. Broberg is 20 and can't even get a drink legally in the US, Benson and Niemelainen will both be 24 yrs old in March and June of this year. That's 3 more years of pro hockey experience, 3 more years of being in the gym working out as a pro. 3 more years of their body just physically maturing. 3 more years of them maturing mentally. That's a big deal.

Plus Benson if from Edmonton, did all his junior in Vancouver and has 3 years in Bakersfield. Niemelainen did 2 years of junior in the OHL, plus this is his second year of hockey in North America. So they know the north American game, know the culture and are accustom to things. Broberg has been in North America living and playing hockey for what, maybe 6 months? So he's learning the North American game which is different both in style and the physical ice size than in Sweden, he's learning the culture and how to live in North America.

So I don't see the comparison what so ever. The conversation was Broberg being a bust over Zegras at 20 yrs old. Zegras is a born and raised American, playing in an American City so there is next to zero adjustment for him both in lifestyle, culture and how the game is played for the most part. Yes the difference between college and pro is different in just the amount of talent he goes up against but the style of play of the game and the ice size is not that dramatically different. Plus like I said, a forward has it easier than a dman. When I compared Niemelainen to Benson, I was in a debate with someone about contributing and making plays regardless of ice time or opportunity. When you get the call, you have to find a way to contribute.

So as I said, and people are free to disagree with me, I think it's pretty premature to decide that Broberg is a complete bust because at 20 with 6 months of time in North America, he's not dominating the league. Does Zegras look like a good offensive player right now, sure he does. DO I think he will be a real good offensive guy for the Ducks? Most likely. But in a year or 2 from now if Broberg looks like another Caleb Jones, a dman who sure looks like he has lots of tools but can't put it together, then absolutely the pick will be a bad one. But if Broberg continues on the path he looks like he's on and turn into a solid, big minute playing, top 4 dman, it will look like a pretty darn good pick and I will take that all day long because I have watched for many years and this goes back a long time how the Oilers had lots of flash and dash like a Zegras in their line up but their defense sucked. They sure could score some pretty goals but they lost over and over again.

So I will gladly miss out on seeing Zegras score a couple lacrosse goals a year wearing an Oilers uniform if Broberg is out there 20+ mins a night doing his thing but it's too early to tell yet if that will be the case. FIngers crossed.


Exactly ZERO people have called Broberg a bust.

I'm not sure I want to put the work in to explain everything to you if you can't be bothered to read it and learn.

The debate is whether the Oilers made a mistake choosing Broberg over Zegras. I don't think anyone believes Broberg doesn't have the tools to make the NHL, but the GM made a big bet choosing Broberg over Zegras who was rated higher across the board. Basically, everyone but the Oilers thought Zegras was better, and the early returns suggest that they were correct.

Broberg needs to be a top flight defenceman anchoring a 1st pairing in order to be comparable to a top end forward, which is what Zegras is looking like. If Broberg becomes a good 2nd pairing guy, then we lost Holland's bet.

icon_rolleyes OK. Then.

You said the GMs "blew it" called it a "draft fail" in 1 post. Then followed it up with saying it was a GM blunder. But you are right, you didn't specifically say bust. You said multiple statements saying similar things but you didn't use that specific word. I should have been very, very specific with my statement, my mistake.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800102 is a reply to message #800100 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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If there's a race to come in 1st, and you decided to take the outside lane on the final lap and ended up in 3rd of 8 people. You would call it a failure. Not a bust... but a failure that other people saw coming.


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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800103 is a reply to message #800102 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 12:57

If there's a race to come in 1st, and you decided to take the outside lane on the final lap and ended up in 3rd of 8 people. You would call it a failure. Not a bust... but a failure that other people saw coming.


What the word fail means according to the dictionary.
fail
/fāl/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1.
be unsuccessful in achieving one's goal.
"he failed in his attempt to secure election"

So according to the dictionary if you are using the term "fail" when it comes to a draft pick, you are saying you were unsuccessful with that draft pick.

When a person says, "that draft pick was a bust" they are saying that draft pick was unsuccessful or a FAIL, are they not?



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800105 is a reply to message #800103 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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you take it as though it's one absolute or the other.
Holland drafted a player that will make the NHL (most likely) however he did not draft the best available option. In the race analogy, 3rd place still gets a medal, but could have been better.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800129 is a reply to message #800105 ]
Sat, 19 February 2022 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 13:39

you take it as though it's one absolute or the other.
Holland drafted a player that will make the NHL (most likely) however he did not draft the best available option. In the race analogy, 3rd place still gets a medal, but could have been better.


It probably should be judged on organizational need and forecasted time to impact as part of how a draft performance is assessed going forward, as much as who's turning out to be the better pick of the draft. Pretty hard to parse between forwards and D. Organizational needs are variable over time.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800159 is a reply to message #800129 ]
Sat, 19 February 2022 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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K.McC#24 wrote on Sat, 19 February 2022 13:30

Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 13:39

you take it as though it's one absolute or the other.
Holland drafted a player that will make the NHL (most likely) however he did not draft the best available option. In the race analogy, 3rd place still gets a medal, but could have been better.


It probably should be judged on organizational need and forecasted time to impact as part of how a draft performance is assessed going forward, as much as who's turning out to be the better pick of the draft. Pretty hard to parse between forwards and D. Organizational needs are variable over time.


Because most guys picked outside the top 5 aren't going to be immediately added to the lineup, I think it's always pretty foolish to go positional over best player. You don't have enough visibility on what you will need three years down the road. It's uncertain what will come available in trades and signings so draft the best guy and if he's not what you need, then you can always trade him later.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800107 is a reply to message #800100 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 12:48


icon_rolleyes OK. Then.

You said the GMs "blew it" called it a "draft fail" in 1 post. Then followed it up with saying it was a GM blunder. But you are right, you didn't specifically say bust. You said multiple statements saying similar things but you didn't use that specific word. I should have been very, very specific with my statement, my mistake.


It's a fail because the Oilers bucked the conventional wisdom to take a guy they thought was better, but no one else did. If they're wrong, then that's a fail, even if Broberg is a good player for the team for a long, long time. The fact is, as long as you're not named Peter Chiarelli, you can trade a top line forward for better than just a middle pairing defenceman - so if we'd have gotten Zegras, and decided we needed defence more, we could trade him for Broberg (or equivalent) plus plus.

We had the more valuable pick at 8th overall, and we downgraded.

I mean, let's move it to something you're less emotionally involved in. In 1990, the Calgary Flames traded up - sending their #20 pick plus two second round picks to New Jersey for the #11 pick and another 2nd rounder. They picked Trevor Kidd with #11. Trevor Kidd was a decent enough goalie - he played for the Flames for parts of 5 seasons, and finished with 387 games played. That's respectable. But New Jersey also used #20 to pick a goalie, one Martin Brodeur who'd go on to be the winningest goalie in NHL history. Did the Flames make a draft fail, even successfully picking a goalie who was their starter for a few seasons? I'd say yes.

And at least there, Kidd was rated higher at the time by the consensus of scouts. Less eyes on the prospects at that time, less sophisticated scouting, less understanding of how goalies should be looked at, so there's some reasons there, but at least the Flames weren't going against the grain to make that pick.

The Oilers decided that everyone else was wrong and they knew better about who was more valuable between Zegras and Broberg. I think those picks deserve more scrutiny. I've always been less fussed about Steve Kelly vs. Shane Doan - those two were ranked pretty similarly going into the draft - than about someone like Niinimaki, who was picked 30-50 spots ahead of where the consensus had him. Zegras was a guy who some tagged to go in the top 5. It was a gift that he fell to us, and the Oilers blew it by not picking him. In order for that to be a win, then Broberg needs to be better than Zegras, and not even you or Holland are predicting that to happen. Holland even said something about not being able to go back in time - which is as clear an indication as you can get that he knows he screwed it up.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800114 is a reply to message #800107 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Adam wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 14:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 12:48


icon_rolleyes OK. Then.

You said the GMs "blew it" called it a "draft fail" in 1 post. Then followed it up with saying it was a GM blunder. But you are right, you didn't specifically say bust. You said multiple statements saying similar things but you didn't use that specific word. I should have been very, very specific with my statement, my mistake.


It's a fail because the Oilers bucked the conventional wisdom to take a guy they thought was better, but no one else did. If they're wrong, then that's a fail, even if Broberg is a good player for the team for a long, long time. The fact is, as long as you're not named Peter Chiarelli, you can trade a top line forward for better than just a middle pairing defenceman - so if we'd have gotten Zegras, and decided we needed defence more, we could trade him for Broberg (or equivalent) plus plus.

We had the more valuable pick at 8th overall, and we downgraded.

I mean, let's move it to something you're less emotionally involved in. In 1990, the Calgary Flames traded up - sending their #20 pick plus two second round picks to New Jersey for the #11 pick and another 2nd rounder. They picked Trevor Kidd with #11. Trevor Kidd was a decent enough goalie - he played for the Flames for parts of 5 seasons, and finished with 387 games played. That's respectable. But New Jersey also used #20 to pick a goalie, one Martin Brodeur who'd go on to be the winningest goalie in NHL history. Did the Flames make a draft fail, even successfully picking a goalie who was their starter for a few seasons? I'd say yes.

And at least there, Kidd was rated higher at the time by the consensus of scouts. Less eyes on the prospects at that time, less sophisticated scouting, less understanding of how goalies should be looked at, so there's some reasons there, but at least the Flames weren't going against the grain to make that pick.

The Oilers decided that everyone else was wrong and they knew better about who was more valuable between Zegras and Broberg. I think those picks deserve more scrutiny. I've always been less fussed about Steve Kelly vs. Shane Doan - those two were ranked pretty similarly going into the draft - than about someone like Niinimaki, who was picked 30-50 spots ahead of where the consensus had him. Zegras was a guy who some tagged to go in the top 5. It was a gift that he fell to us, and the Oilers blew it by not picking him. In order for that to be a win, then Broberg needs to be better than Zegras, and not even you or Holland are predicting that to happen. Holland even said something about not being able to go back in time - which is as clear an indication as you can get that he knows he screwed it up.


Using this as backup, I stand firm in my belief they should have taken Wallstedt instead of Professor Xavier



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800118 is a reply to message #800114 ]
Fri, 18 February 2022 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oscargasm wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 19:38


Using this as backup, I stand firm in my belief they should have taken Wallstedt instead of Professor Xavier


I agree. Not only is Wallstedt the higher ranked player but he's also at a position of organizational weakness. And serious, decades long weakness at that. And again, like Zegras, he's a gift from the gods as he probably should have gone earlier but the Oilers didn't want him for some reason.

We got Luca Munzenburger in the third round as the extra piece for giving up the opportunity to draft Wallstedt, but if Wallstedt turns in to a stud goalie (and he's looking good early) then that's a hard deal to win.

It's reminiscent of the Parise/Pouliot & Jacques swap. Both those guys make the show. Pouliot played 192 games, Jacques played 166. Most of both's NHL games were even for Edmonton...but man...that is not a good deal. The sad thing is that if, as reported, the Oilers weren't big fans of Parise, then they also had Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards and Perry on the board. Pouliot would go on to finish 3rd last in games played in that first round. Only Shawn Belle (20 games) and Hugh Jessiman the Huge Specimen (2 games) would play less.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800123 is a reply to message #800118 ]
Sat, 19 February 2022 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Adam wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 22:57

Oscargasm wrote on Fri, 18 February 2022 19:38


Using this as backup, I stand firm in my belief they should have taken Wallstedt instead of Professor Xavier


I agree. Not only is Wallstedt the higher ranked player but he's also at a position of organizational weakness. And serious, decades long weakness at that. And again, like Zegras, he's a gift from the gods as he probably should have gone earlier but the Oilers didn't want him for some reason.

We got Luca Munzenburger in the third round as the extra piece for giving up the opportunity to draft Wallstedt, but if Wallstedt turns in to a stud goalie (and he's looking good early) then that's a hard deal to win.

It's reminiscent of the Parise/Pouliot & Jacques swap. Both those guys make the show. Pouliot played 192 games, Jacques played 166. Most of both's NHL games were even for Edmonton...but man...that is not a good deal. The sad thing is that if, as reported, the Oilers weren't big fans of Parise, then they also had Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards and Perry on the board. Pouliot would go on to finish 3rd last in games played in that first round. Only Shawn Belle (20 games) and Hugh Jessiman the Huge Specimen (2 games) would play less.


Word was they wanted Cossa but Ken’s old buddy and team took him, despite recently trading FOR a guy the Oilers very easily could have obtained (waiver claim) last season in Ned (who, let’s not forget went on to be the Canes best puck stopper last season!).

They clearly were willing to go goalie with 20, but despite being literally gifted a guy who was without a doubt the more NHL ready goalie prospect, they galaxy brained because he doesn’t play for the Edmonton Oil Kings effectively trading him (to a team that had a solid starter in Talbot and a grade A prospect in Kahkonen already) for a Yamamoto/Lavoie hybrid and a guy who likely never sees an NHL game.

I’m still incredibly butt hurt over that whole thing. I was pumped. PUMPED!!! to see Wallstedt (who I like more than Cossa) fall to the Oilers pick.

Have to admit, I thought that it was smart trade back to acquire the 3rd as I didn’t see Minny taking Wallstedt nor did I see Boston take him so I thought we’d still get him but nope. Thanks Kenny.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800573 is a reply to message #769468 ]
Sun, 27 February 2022 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Sweet goal by Holloway!!

1G + 1A last night..

https://twitter.com/Condors/status/1497760353631059969



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800695 is a reply to message #800573 ]
Mon, 28 February 2022 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 27 February 2022 07:57

Sweet goal by Holloway!!

1G + 1A last night..

https://twitter.com/Condors/status/1497760353631059969


I haven't followed the Condors too closely lately. Is Holloway playing mostly Centre or wing?





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 Re: D. Holloway [message #800707 is a reply to message #800695 ]
Mon, 28 February 2022 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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GabbyDugan wrote on Mon, 28 February 2022 08:53

Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 27 February 2022 07:57

Sweet goal by Holloway!!

1G + 1A last night..

https://twitter.com/Condors/status/1497760353631059969


I haven't followed the Condors too closely lately. Is Holloway playing mostly Centre or wing?




I think wing.



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P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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 Re: D. Holloway [message #801326 is a reply to message #769468 ]
Tue, 08 March 2022 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNWBo7HVkAYEEp8?format=jpg&name=small


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 Re: D. Holloway [message #801339 is a reply to message #801326 ]
Tue, 08 March 2022 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 08 March 2022 10:58

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNWBo7HVkAYEEp8?format=jpg&name=small


https://c.tenor.com/jwKv2kpYZooAAAAM/price-is-right-come-on-down.gif

Enter Holloway!

[Updated on: Tue, 08 March 2022 13:15]


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 Re: D. Holloway [message #818223 is a reply to message #769468 ]
Sat, 18 February 2023 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Welp, just saw that Holloway left his AHL game holding his shoulder. Didn't come back.

This whole being right up against the cap constantly, with loads of dead weight on the roster, stuff kinda blows.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #818227 is a reply to message #818223 ]
Sun, 19 February 2023 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Sat, 18 February 2023 22:44

Welp, just saw that Holloway left his AHL game holding his shoulder. Didn't come back.

This whole being right up against the cap constantly, with loads of dead weight on the roster, stuff kinda blows.


Yaaaaaa this doesn’t sound good.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #818229 is a reply to message #818227 ]
Sun, 19 February 2023 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Oscargasm wrote on Sun, 19 February 2023 08:40

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 18 February 2023 22:44

Welp, just saw that Holloway left his AHL game holding his shoulder. Didn't come back.

This whole being right up against the cap constantly, with loads of dead weight on the roster, stuff kinda blows.


Yaaaaaa this doesn’t sound good.

Every Oiler first rounder gets a new shoulder! So glad we're getting back on this trend.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #818230 is a reply to message #818229 ]
Sun, 19 February 2023 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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CrusaderPi wrote on Sun, 19 February 2023 09:41

Oscargasm wrote on Sun, 19 February 2023 08:40

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 18 February 2023 22:44

Welp, just saw that Holloway left his AHL game holding his shoulder. Didn't come back.

This whole being right up against the cap constantly, with loads of dead weight on the roster, stuff kinda blows.


Yaaaaaa this doesn’t sound good.

Every Oiler first rounder gets a new shoulder! So glad we're getting back on this trend.


May as well just trade the next couple firsts.



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 Re: D. Holloway [message #818312 is a reply to message #818230 ]
Sun, 19 February 2023 16:58 Go to previous message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Oscargasm wrote on Sun, 19 February 2023 09:00



May as well just trade the next couple firsts.


Might not be a bad strategy, Edmonton shoulder surgeons will be pissed though :)



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