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#FireHolland [message #825898]	Thu, 12 October 2023 09:07

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

I think the team has given Ken enough time to show just how far out of his depth he is in the salary cap era. There was one crucial area of the team that needed addressing, and he didn’t even attempt to look at it (re: a bonafide #1 or #2 d-man). If this were pre-2004, Ken could have just solved the problem by opening the wallet and signing a big FA. However, he has no clue how to do it in an age where budgets are limited.

When Ken finally does get the boot, Bobby Burgers should be kicked to the curb beside him, as the hire was his genius idea to begin with. Sigh, being a fan of this team can be really painful sometimes.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825901 is a reply to message #825898 ]	Thu, 12 October 2023 09:16

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Yup. This thread should be a couple years old by now, but we all know that the second best time to plant a tree is today.

It is absolutely inexcusable that Holland let the same defense that simply wasn't good enough in the playoffs last year, even with Ekholm, stand as his defense this year. We knew this was THE problem with the Oilers yet the only relevant summer signing is Connor Brown? That is a shocking display of negligence.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825914 is a reply to message #825898 ]	Thu, 12 October 2023 13:58

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Thu, 12 October 2023 09:07

I think the team has given Ken enough time to show just how far out of his depth he is in the salary cap era. There was one crucial area of the team that needed addressing, and he didn’t even attempt to look at it (re: a bonafide #1 or #2 d-man). If this were pre-2004, Ken could have just solved the problem by opening the wallet and signing a big FA. However, he has no clue how to do it in an age where budgets are limited.

When Ken finally does get the boot, Bobby Burgers should be kicked to the curb beside him, as the hire was his genius idea to begin with. Sigh, being a fan of this team can be really painful sometimes.

Getting a #1D is almost impossible unless you draft them. Ekholm performed like a #2 at minimum last year. Ekholm and Bouch together played like an elite top pair together. What killed us was a 2nd pair that just imploded because they were a garbage fit together, almost all season.

Ceci cannot make up for weaknesses in Nurse's game. Ceci was drafted for offense, and is one of those guys that tried to add defense to survive because his offensive game sucked in the NHL, and he has only climbed up to being mediocre defensively. We do not have a good partner for Nurse right now, and this is going to keep biting us. We also do not have a solid defensive partner for Bouch, which will bite us if Ekholm misses time.

You can have D like Bouch and Nurse on your team. Bouch is trending to be basically like John Carlson, pretty lame defensively, but drives play all night long with breakout passes and good plays with the puck and elite on the powerplay. Washington always gave Carlson a solid partner so Carlson could be standing straight up clueless as things went on around him in his end.

Nurse is a unique player, but can be useful. If he had a really solid D partner that was defensively aware and could make a pass, we'd complain a lot less. Ceci had a miracle season his first year here where he kinda did that, but then he's regressed to being exactly what he was his whole career, which should not be a surprise. Nurse skates well with the puck, his athleticism can get him out of trouble a lot, can play crazy minutes. He probably should be making ~7-7.5M, but we f-d that up. Still he would be the unique talent on his pair, and a partner that compliments him probably should not cost nearly as much.

Still fire Holland of course. He obviously is not recognizing how this D group is going to struggle indefinitely because there are not enough good fits.

I'm also not a fan of the forward setup. I wanted us to get playmakers to play with McDavid and Drai. Not just a bunch of grindy 1 and done shooters. McDavid and Drai score themselves better than any of our wingers, but none of their wingers can actually hold a puck 5v5 and make plays to set them up. We're still leaving it to McDavid and Drai to drive everything on their lines. Hyman can retrieve pucks off the boards and get it to McDavid or Drai, but that's it. Kane is just an abysmal passer. Nuge plays hot potato with the puck 5v5. Brown is just all grind and shoot. I think we've messed up pretty bad with the forward lines, even though it looks good on paper. Both lines, shut down 1 guy, and the line is dead. This will be a problem in the playoffs again, and I wouldn't be surprised if we have to be a 1 line team again to have any hope. That's on Holland too.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 October 2023 14:01]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825922 is a reply to message #825914 ]	Fri, 13 October 2023 09:34

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 12 October 2023 13:58

Ragnarok73 wrote on Thu, 12 October 2023 09:07

I think the team has given Ken enough time to show just how far out of his depth he is in the salary cap era. There was one crucial area of the team that needed addressing, and he didn’t even attempt to look at it (re: a bonafide #1 or #2 d-man). If this were pre-2004, Ken could have just solved the problem by opening the wallet and signing a big FA. However, he has no clue how to do it in an age where budgets are limited.

When Ken finally does get the boot, Bobby Burgers should be kicked to the curb beside him, as the hire was his genius idea to begin with. Sigh, being a fan of this team can be really painful sometimes.

Getting a #1D is almost impossible unless you draft them. Ekholm performed like a #2 at minimum last year. Ekholm and Bouch together played like an elite top pair together. What killed us was a 2nd pair that just imploded because they were a garbage fit together, almost all season.

Ceci cannot make up for weaknesses in Nurse's game. Ceci was drafted for offense, and is one of those guys that tried to add defense to survive because his offensive game sucked in the NHL, and he has only climbed up to being mediocre defensively. We do not have a good partner for Nurse right now, and this is going to keep biting us. We also do not have a solid defensive partner for Bouch, which will bite us if Ekholm misses time.

You can have D like Bouch and Nurse on your team. Bouch is trending to be basically like John Carlson, pretty lame defensively, but drives play all night long with breakout passes and good plays with the puck and elite on the powerplay. Washington always gave Carlson a solid partner so Carlson could be standing straight up clueless as things went on around him in his end.

Nurse is a unique player, but can be useful. If he had a really solid D partner that was defensively aware and could make a pass, we'd complain a lot less. Ceci had a miracle season his first year here where he kinda did that, but then he's regressed to being exactly what he was his whole career, which should not be a surprise. Nurse skates well with the puck, his athleticism can get him out of trouble a lot, can play crazy minutes. He probably should be making ~7-7.5M, but we f-d that up. Still he would be the unique talent on his pair, and a partner that compliments him probably should not cost nearly as much.

Still fire Holland of course. He obviously is not recognizing how this D group is going to struggle indefinitely because there are not enough good fits.

I'm also not a fan of the forward setup. I wanted us to get playmakers to play with McDavid and Drai. Not just a bunch of grindy 1 and done shooters. McDavid and Drai score themselves better than any of our wingers, but none of their wingers can actually hold a puck 5v5 and make plays to set them up. We're still leaving it to McDavid and Drai to drive everything on their lines. Hyman can retrieve pucks off the boards and get it to McDavid or Drai, but that's it. Kane is just an abysmal passer. Nuge plays hot potato with the puck 5v5. Brown is just all grind and shoot. I think we've messed up pretty bad with the forward lines, even though it looks good on paper. Both lines, shut down 1 guy, and the line is dead. This will be a problem in the playoffs again, and I wouldn't be surprised if we have to be a 1 line team again to have any hope. That's on Holland too.

They will not be firing Holland. It is the last year of a contract. Start planning the succession.

I do not think a pure playmaker would work well with McDrai. Both like to have the puck entering the neutral zone and enter the offensive end. There might be a player out there that does not need to carry the puck and can still play make, but I cannot think of a guy who goes to the soft spots with passing creativity who does not drive his own line ... maybe Nuge?

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825925 is a reply to message #825922 ]	Fri, 13 October 2023 09:43

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Eberle!

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825926 is a reply to message #825925 ]	Fri, 13 October 2023 09:53

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I don't get the idea of getting more playmakers for McD and Leon, especially McD. He's a guy that likes to set up people. I loved the fact the was shooting more last year but McD still looks to set up his wingers first. So you'd be asking McD to change his game and become more of a shooter if you put a pure passer on his line. That makes no sense.

For Leon, he likes to pass a lot as well but there is already Nuge on his line who's more of a passer than shooter.

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Re: #FireHolland [message #825933 is a reply to message #825926 ]	Fri, 13 October 2023 17:43

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 13 October 2023 09:53

I don't get the idea of getting more playmakers for McD and Leon, especially McD. He's a guy that likes to set up people. I loved the fact the was shooting more last year but McD still looks to set up his wingers first. So you'd be asking McD to change his game and become more of a shooter if you put a pure passer on his line. That makes no sense.

For Leon, he likes to pass a lot as well but there is already Nuge on his line who's more of a passer than shooter.

If you don't have wingers that can carry the puck and make plays 5v5, you get exactly what we saw last playoffs. You get McDavid and Drai having to play together. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Very few top 6 players are a "pure playmaker". However, there are lots of players that are much more shooters than playmakers, like Kane or Nuge 5v5. A forward that is able to hold onto pucks and make good plays usually is also able recognize when they should shoot too.

As for McDrai wanting to be the guys setting players up. I think they just want goals to happen. And we make those 2 players have to do 1 man show acts a lot more than we probably should, because no one else on their lines can hold onto pucks very well.

This has burned us a number of times now, wingers that can't hold pucks and draw some attention away from McDavid or Drai. When you face really good teams, we make the game plan pretty simple. Time and time again our coaches give up on having 2 lines with only 1 player able to carry the puck, and turn us into a 1 line team with 2 guys that can make a play as our only hope.

And yeah, Dragon_Matt gives a good example of the type of player I'm talking about. Eberle would be very useful on this team right now. Heads up player, great playmaker and passer 5v5, and can put the puck in the net when the opportunity is there.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 October 2023 17:53]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826041 is a reply to message #825933 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 09:19

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I wonder if we have a 'Ryan' in our org that we could trade straight up for Eberle...

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826043 is a reply to message #826041 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 10:38

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I think they would probably be best served to use assets to either bring in another dman or possibly a right handed center vs a retread winger. They already brought in Gagner to the organization to meet the nostalgia quota for the year.

[Updated on: Wed, 18 October 2023 10:40]

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826044 is a reply to message #825898 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 15:03

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

I am coming around to the idea of finding a high end center for line 2, and keeping Drai and McDavid together full-time for the backend of the season.

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826046 is a reply to message #826044 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 15:48

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 18 October 2023 15:03

I am coming around to the idea of finding a high end center for line 2, and keeping Drai and McDavid together full-time for the backend of the season.

I prefer McD and Leon being separated just because in theory, most teams have a drop off from their first pairing to their second pairing defense. McD and Leon are easily 2 of the top 5 players in the world so if you separate them, one of them should be going up against a teams second pairing so I would think it gives the Oilers a slight advantage. But at the same time, if you could find that second line center, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping them together as they are soooo good.

The issue is who's that guy. In a perfect world, Nuge can turn into that guy. I've never thought he was a high end center.

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826047 is a reply to message #826044 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 16:27

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 18 October 2023 15:03

I am coming around to the idea of finding a high end center for line 2, and keeping Drai and McDavid together full-time for the backend of the season.

Definitely can win with a loaded top line, but for sure, still need a 2nd line that is a consistent scoring threat. This has kept holding Boston back no matter how amazing their regular seasons are. Colorado couldn't win with a totall stacked top line until they got Kadri in a contract year. Washington struggled forever in the playoffs until Kuznetsov broke out.

No cap space though! And we probably need to fix our D and maybe even goaltending before we could fix the forward group.

Said before here, I think our biggest issue in the top 2 lines is too many 1-dimensional wingers 5v5. Happy for the Foegele-Nuge-Hyman 2nd line last game, but boy did they get some luck. Nuge shots turning into perfect passes on the tape. Every bounce went their way in the offensive zone, plus Foegele was suddenly a sniper for a day lol. Chances of that line being dominant in the playoffs ... probably 0%. To have 2 lines that can actually push offense, I think we still need McDrai on their own lines. Just wish they had wingers that had more complete offensive games to take some pressure off them when they get smothered.

[Updated on: Wed, 18 October 2023 16:29]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826048 is a reply to message #826047 ]	Wed, 18 October 2023 16:29

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I think Ceci and something will be traded for an upgrade on him. I think it will be a team who knows they aren't winning for the next few years, they have a vet who's either a UFA or maybe has another year on his deal. Ceci is a guy signed to a reasonable contract (3.25) and who can step in and play at a decent level but is just not high end enough for a team going for a cup. So it's a team looking for a reasonably priced vet to play while some young guys play under and then when those young guys should be ready to take over prime time, Ceci will be gone. Plus they get some other assets.

I don't know who but just my feeling.

[Updated on: Wed, 18 October 2023 16:33]

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826145 is a reply to message #825898 ]	Sun, 22 October 2023 22:51

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

So, we now have to carry an exactly 20 man roster for 1-2 weeks until McDavid is back because we have zero cap space.

Ken Holland will have been paid 25 million dollars by Daryl Katz by the time he exits stage left and leaves his successor with Connor Brown's ghost using up likely more than the cap increase teams get in 24/25. Scared to think what other disasters he can create for the next guy, on top of the various overpays and boat anchors we already have now.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826146 is a reply to message #826145 ]	Sun, 22 October 2023 23:30

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 22 October 2023 22:51

So, we now have to carry an exactly 20 man roster for 1-2 weeks until McDavid is back because we have zero cap space.

Ken Holland will have been paid 25 million dollars by Daryl Katz by the time he exits stage left and leaves his successor with Connor Brown's ghost using up likely more than the cap increase teams get in 24/25. Scared to think what other disasters he can create for the next guy, on top of the various overpays and boat anchors we already have now.

The eternally crazy thing about the Oilers spending to the cap is that we always have so many holes and so many just-a-guy players on the roster. There are other teams that spend to the cap, and other teams who have a mediocre roster, but it's rare to find a team that can so consistently spend so much on such a mediocre crew.

The team REALLY has to step up now. a couple weeks without McDavid - it could bury the team's chances if they don't start winning.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: #FireHolland [message #826147 is a reply to message #826146 ]	Mon, 23 October 2023 10:24

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Sun, 22 October 2023 23:30

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 22 October 2023 22:51

So, we now have to carry an exactly 20 man roster for 1-2 weeks until McDavid is back because we have zero cap space.

Ken Holland will have been paid 25 million dollars by Daryl Katz by the time he exits stage left and leaves his successor with Connor Brown's ghost using up likely more than the cap increase teams get in 24/25. Scared to think what other disasters he can create for the next guy, on top of the various overpays and boat anchors we already have now.

The eternally crazy thing about the Oilers spending to the cap is that we always have so many holes and so many just-a-guy players on the roster. There are other teams that spend to the cap, and other teams who have a mediocre roster, but it's rare to find a team that can so consistently spend so much on such a mediocre crew.

The team REALLY has to step up now. a couple weeks without McDavid - it could bury the team's chances if they don't start winning.

A team really stepping it up is as silly a demand as 'play with more effort'. The non-McDavid guys are who they are. A couple will will get a bump up the lineup because of the injury and will produce slightly more because of the extra ice time and game situations they see. Or they won't. None of that will change the fundamental flaws in roster construction we almost all saw years ago. Defense and goaltending and depth still aren't good enough. I should add flexibility to this mental list, but the other issues are so limiting this one barely matters.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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