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Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768945]	Wed, 28 October 2020 11:03

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

I expect some of this is around trying to prepare the market for a Lowe celebration that lots of people aren't going to be super-excited about, but still it's an interesting comment (and good news that they're committed to the standard):

Quote:

Mark Spector
@SportsnetSpec

Wayne Gretzky on retiring numbers in EDM:

"The prerequisite is, you get your number hung in the rafters if you get into the Hall of Fame. It’s cut and dried, and I think it’s a great way to go.”

(Bad news for Ryan Smyth)

That prompted this from everyone's favourite over-the-hill Hall of Fame reporter:

Quote:

Jim Matheson
@jimmathesonnhl

Indeed but then it's time the Oilers got a Ring of Honour for people like Smyth, Charlie Huddy, Doug Weight, Lee Fogolin, Randy Gregg, Kelly Buchberger, Andy Moog

While I agree with the concept of a ring of honour or something similar, I do think maybe Matheson shouldn't be the guy making the selections or we're just going to get every Oilers player from the 80s with little representation outside it. Gregg won 5 Cups here and Moog was an All-Star and backstopped the first championship so maybe there's cases to be made there, but Buchberger and Fogolin are not players I'd be in a rush to have a ceremony for...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768947 is a reply to message #768945 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 11:12

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:03

I expect some of this is around trying to prepare the market for a Lowe celebration that lots of people aren't going to be super-excited about, but still it's an interesting comment (and good news that they're committed to the standard):

Quote:

Mark Spector
@SportsnetSpec

Wayne Gretzky on retiring numbers in EDM:

"The prerequisite is, you get your number hung in the rafters if you get into the Hall of Fame. It’s cut and dried, and I think it’s a great way to go.”

(Bad news for Ryan Smyth)

That prompted this from everyone's favourite over-the-hill Hall of Fame reporter:

Quote:

Jim Matheson
@jimmathesonnhl

Indeed but then it's time the Oilers got a Ring of Honour for people like Smyth, Charlie Huddy, Doug Weight, Lee Fogolin, Randy Gregg, Kelly Buchberger, Andy Moog

While I agree with the concept of a ring of honour or something similar, I do think maybe Matheson shouldn't be the guy making the selections or we're just going to get every Oilers player from the 80s with little representation outside it. Gregg won 5 Cups here and Moog was an All-Star and backstopped the first championship so maybe there's cases to be made there, but Buchberger and Fogolin are not players I'd be in a rush to have a ceremony for...

I 100% support a retirement exception for Smyth. The Barrie number scare I think solidifies this. Too close for comfort. Need to ensure there is no way that happens again.

Not Smyth's fault that his team was being outspent 4:1 by cup winners during his career. You could fill up 10 cups with Smyths heart and determination and love for the game.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768950 is a reply to message #768947 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768959 is a reply to message #768950 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:38

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

I would never retire Smyth's number and I would retire Smyth's number a thousand years before Lowe's. I'm still hoping someone at the NHL head office realizes it was a paperwork error and takes back his Hall of Fame admission.

Russell extension means the retirement doesn't happen for two years?

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768967 is a reply to message #768959 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 14:05

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:38

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

I would never retire Smyth's number and I would retire Smyth's number a thousand years before Lowe's. I'm still hoping someone at the NHL head office realizes it was a paperwork error and takes back his Hall of Fame admission.

Russell extension means the retirement doesn't happen for two years?

So if I'm following the logic, if Lowe's number is retired, that means the bar is set so that we should all be OK with Smyth's number being retired.

I agree 110% Coincidentally, 110% is also the amount of effort that Smyth gave in every single game he played.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768968 is a reply to message #768967 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 14:08

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:05

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:38

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

I would never retire Smyth's number and I would retire Smyth's number a thousand years before Lowe's. I'm still hoping someone at the NHL head office realizes it was a paperwork error and takes back his Hall of Fame admission.

Russell extension means the retirement doesn't happen for two years?

So if I'm following the logic, if Lowe's number is retired, that means the bar is set so that we should all be OK with Smyth's number being retired.

I agree 110% Coincidentally, 110% is also the amount of effort that Smyth gave in every single game he played.

Yes. Put Drake's number up in the rafters too. It doesn't matter anymore if they put Kevin up. Won't matter to me anyways.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769024 is a reply to message #768968 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 09:46

Hibernia
Messages: 102
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's

No Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:38

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:05

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:38

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

I would never retire Smyth's number and I would retire Smyth's number a thousand years before Lowe's. I'm still hoping someone at the NHL head office realizes it was a paperwork error and takes back his Hall of Fame admission.

Russell extension means the retirement doesn't happen for two years?

So if I'm following the logic, if Lowe's number is retired, that means the bar is set so that we should all be OK with Smyth's number being retired.

I agree 110% Coincidentally, 110% is also the amount of effort that Smyth gave in every single game he played.

Yes. Put Drake's number up in the rafters too. It doesn't matter anymore if they put Kevin up. Won't matter to me anyways.

Clearly you never watched Kevin Lowe, the player. The fact that you are so willing to dismiss what he did during his playing career says you're only judging him based upon his work as an executive.

What happened to all of my messages? lol (I guess it's been awhile) BlueSky: StefBarnes

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769026 is a reply to message #769024 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 10:04

Perkele
Messages: 223
Registered: July 2006
Location: St. Catharines

No Cups

I did watch Kevin Lowe the player (I know you were not taking to me with your post) but I still don't think he deserves to be in the HOF or have his # retired, and it has nothing to do with the disaster he has been in management.

I might be mistaken but I can't think of a season when I would have considered Lowe the best Dman on the team. Obviously he is behind Coffey until Paul was traded. After the Coffey trade I would think that Lowe would have still been behind Huddy and Smith as the Oilers best Dman (I don't only mean in terms of scoring although that is pretty important).

I could be mistaken and maybe I am "misremembering" how good Lowe was (I admit he was very good but not elite IMO). I would have said 20 years ago that Lowe shouldn't be in the HOF nor should he have his # retired and I certainly can't think of anything that has happened in the past 2 decades that would have made him more worthy.

#teamBath(i)robe

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769065 is a reply to message #769026 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 16:54

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

bath(i)robe wrote on Fri, 30 October 2020 10:04

I did watch Kevin Lowe the player (I know you were not taking to me with your post) but I still don't think he deserves to be in the HOF or have his # retired, and it has nothing to do with the disaster he has been in management.

I might be mistaken but I can't think of a season when I would have considered Lowe the best Dman on the team. Obviously he is behind Coffey until Paul was traded. After the Coffey trade I would think that Lowe would have still been behind Huddy and Smith as the Oilers best Dman (I don't only mean in terms of scoring although that is pretty important).

I could be mistaken and maybe I am "misremembering" how good Lowe was (I admit he was very good but not elite IMO). I would have said 20 years ago that Lowe shouldn't be in the HOF nor should he have his # retired and I certainly can't think of anything that has happened in the past 2 decades that would have made him more worthy.

This asks an interesting question: If Steve Smith and Kevin Lowe's age was reversed and Smith was drafted in 1979 and Lowe in 1981, would Steve Smith be considered for the Hall of Fame?

Lowe was remembered for his toughness and being a big part of that 80s Oilers team - and he was one of only a small handful to be there through all the Cups (Messier, Anderson, Kurri, Huddy, Gregg, Fuhr). Smith was also tough, but was bigger and contributed more points. I remember more Steve Smith fights (notably against the LA Kings) than I do Kevin Lowe fights. Here's their side by side stats:

Season 1 - Lowe 64GP 2-19-21 Smith 55GP 4-20-24
Season 2 - KL 79GP 10-24-34 SS 62 7-15-22
Season 3 - KL 80GP 9-31-40 SS 79 12-43-55
Season 4 - KL 80GP 6-34-40 SS 35 3-19-22
Season 5 - KL 80GP 4-42-46 SS 75 7-34-41
Season 6 - KL 80GP 2-22-26 SS 77 13-41-54
Season 7 - KL 74GP 2-16-18 SS 76 9-21-30 (w/ Chicago)
Season 8 - KL 77GP 8-29-37 SS 78 10-47-57
Season 9 - KL 70GP 9-15-26 SS 57 5-22-27
Season 10 - KL 76GP 7-18-25 SS 48 1-12-13

Smith wasn't as durable as Lowe, and that probably hurts his case. He also broke in slower because the Oilers had more people ahead of him on defence than Lowe did, but if he was a couple years older and had been the first to arrive on the Oilers scene, it's pretty reasonable to think he would have got the same push as Lowe did. He'd have had more years on that great team, winning more Cups and probably even more points.

There's a pretty decent argument that Lowe's role on that Oilers team could have been played by any number of defenceman we've had over the years - unlike someone like Coffey. There's a pretty good argument that Huddy played the same role and was better - despite the push Lowe gets simply because he was the first in.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769027 is a reply to message #769024 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 10:24

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Hibernia wrote on Fri, 30 October 2020 09:46

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:38

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:05

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:38

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:37

I completely agree with being in the Hall of Fame as the way your number gets retired. Never letting anyone else use that number again is a big deal. When it comes to K.Lowe, people need to detach any ill will they may have from the current Oilers management and recognize that as a player, he was one of the Oilers true greats. He wouldn't be having his number retired for the last 10 years in management, he'd be retired for what he did as a player. There is a BIG difference.

When it comes to Smyth, I completely agree he should be honored in a ring or wall of honor but not retired. He was a good real player, not a great player. He was a really, really good Oilers, not a great Oiler. The fact that the Oilers weren't a good team in my opinion helped elevate his status. If they were a better team and spent like the top teams back in his time, my guess is he wouldn't have been as big of a star for the Oilers. Just my opinion but when a player like Smyth is looked upon as one of your best players, probably means your team isn't that good which it wasn't.

I would never retire Smyth's number and I would retire Smyth's number a thousand years before Lowe's. I'm still hoping someone at the NHL head office realizes it was a paperwork error and takes back his Hall of Fame admission.

Russell extension means the retirement doesn't happen for two years?

So if I'm following the logic, if Lowe's number is retired, that means the bar is set so that we should all be OK with Smyth's number being retired.

I agree 110% Coincidentally, 110% is also the amount of effort that Smyth gave in every single game he played.

Yes. Put Drake's number up in the rafters too. It doesn't matter anymore if they put Kevin up. Won't matter to me anyways.

Clearly you never watched Kevin Lowe, the player. The fact that you are so willing to dismiss what he did during his playing career says you're only judging him based upon his work as an executive.

I sure did watch Kevin Lowe, the player who scored 0.066 goals per game on the greatest offensive team in history, play hockey. I watched him allow the fastest two goals in playoff history to Pat LaFontaine. I also watched him coach, with a win percentage of .390 and a playoff win percentage of 0.200. That naturally earned him a promotion to General Manager, continuing his amazing habit of achievements he didn't really earn, like getting 6 Cup rings.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768956 is a reply to message #768947 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 12:15

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:12

I 100% support a retirement exception for Smyth. The Barrie number scare I think solidifies this. Too close for comfort. Need to ensure there is no way that happens again.

Not Smyth's fault that his team was being outspent 4:1 by cup winners during his career. You could fill up 10 cups with Smyths heart and determination and love for the game.

I think it's better if we just let that Allan Cup team retire Smyth's number instead. I think it would be a shame to retire the number for a guy who isn't just not a Hall of Fame guy, but was also never the best player on any of the teams he played on even.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768964 is a reply to message #768956 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

NetBOG
Messages: 2951
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 12:15

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:12

I 100% support a retirement exception for Smyth. The Barrie number scare I think solidifies this. Too close for comfort. Need to ensure there is no way that happens again.

Not Smyth's fault that his team was being outspent 4:1 by cup winners during his career. You could fill up 10 cups with Smyths heart and determination and love for the game.

I think it's better if we just let that Allan Cup team retire Smyth's number instead. I think it would be a shame to retire the number for a guy who isn't just not a Hall of Fame guy, but was also never the best player on any of the teams he played on even.

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger. He was also the best player (and having his best season) the year he was traded. Thats 3 or 4 years.

That said, he's just a fraction of the player Weight was. Weight is the guy that is massively disrespected.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768972 is a reply to message #768964 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 15:45

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger.

*cough, cough* Hemsky *cough*

I think Comrie was better than him in his prime too - and arguably even Marchant the one season.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2020 15:50]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768976 is a reply to message #768972 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 16:19

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:45

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger.

*cough, cough* Hemsky *cough*

I think Comrie was better than him in his prime too - and arguably even Marchant the one season.

I know that Adam likes to do everything he can to diminish Ryan Smyth's wonderful hockey career in Edmonton, but this is just an awful take.

01-02 - Comrie leads team in scoring (career year), Smyth is 3rd. Smyth plays 22 less games, and has a better PPG.
Comrie 33G 27A 60P 82GP -> 0.73 PPG
Smyth 15G 35A 50P 60GP -> 0.83 PPG

02-03 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals despite only playing 66 games. Marchant is 2nd in scoring on the team for his career year. Comrie and Hemsky aren't worth talking about.
Marchant 20G 40A 60P 77GP -> 0.78 PPG
Smyth 27G 34A 61P 61GP -> 0.92 PPG

03-04 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals. A pretty lackluster year for everyone. Marchant and Comrie are gone. Hemsky is in his 2nd year.
Smyth - 23G 36A 59P 82GP -> 0.72 PPG
Hemsky - 12G 22A 34P 71GP -> 0.48 PPG

05-06 - Hemsky is more productive than Smyth this year as Pronger joins the Oilers, and scoring goes way up in the NHL after the lockout. Smyth leads the team in goals.
Smyth - 36G 30A 66P 75GP -> 0.88 PPG
Hemsky - 19G 58A 77P 81GP -> 0.95 PPG

06-07 - Smyth leads the team in scoring and goals despite being traded this year.
Smyth - 31G 22A 53P 53GP -> 1.0 PPG with Oilers
Hemsky - 13G 40A 53P 64GP -> 0.83 PPG

The only year after Weight where Smyth was not the most productive player for the Oilers was the Pronger year. Otherwise, Smyth is absolutely the best player on the Oilers post-Weight. It's certainly not Comrie or Marchant...

He was really good at scoring goals in the dead puck era.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768983 is a reply to message #768976 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 17:50

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 16:19

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:45

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger.

*cough, cough* Hemsky *cough*

I think Comrie was better than him in his prime too - and arguably even Marchant the one season.

I know that Adam likes to do everything he can to diminish Ryan Smyth's wonderful hockey career in Edmonton, but this is just an awful take.

01-02 - Comrie leads team in scoring (career year), Smyth is 3rd. Smyth plays 22 less games, and has a better PPG.
Comrie 33G 27A 60P 82GP -> 0.73 PPG
Smyth 15G 35A 50P 60GP -> 0.83 PPG

02-03 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals despite only playing 66 games. Marchant is 2nd in scoring on the team for his career year. Comrie and Hemsky aren't worth talking about.
Marchant 20G 40A 60P 77GP -> 0.78 PPG
Smyth 27G 34A 61P 61GP -> 0.92 PPG

03-04 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals. A pretty lackluster year for everyone. Marchant and Comrie are gone. Hemsky is in his 2nd year.
Smyth - 23G 36A 59P 82GP -> 0.72 PPG
Hemsky - 12G 22A 34P 71GP -> 0.48 PPG

05-06 - Hemsky is more productive than Smyth this year as Pronger joins the Oilers, and scoring goes way up in the NHL after the lockout. Smyth leads the team in goals.
Smyth - 36G 30A 66P 75GP -> 0.88 PPG
Hemsky - 19G 58A 77P 81GP -> 0.95 PPG

06-07 - Smyth leads the team in scoring and goals despite being traded this year.
Smyth - 31G 22A 53P 53GP -> 1.0 PPG with Oilers
Hemsky - 13G 40A 53P 64GP -> 0.83 PPG

The only year after Weight where Smyth was not the most productive player for the Oilers was the Pronger year. Otherwise, Smyth is absolutely the best player on the Oilers post-Weight. It's certainly not Comrie or Marchant...

He was really good at scoring goals in the dead puck era.

Picture of Adam after reviewing this excellent analysis that proves once and for all Smyth's quality:

https://i1.wp.com/oilersnation.com/wp-content/uploads/Image/94AE7CD1843E14F7A164E78ABDC0D5.jpg?resize=650%2C448&ssl=1

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768984 is a reply to message #768983 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 18:00

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:50

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 16:19

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:45

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger.

*cough, cough* Hemsky *cough*

I think Comrie was better than him in his prime too - and arguably even Marchant the one season.

I know that Adam likes to do everything he can to diminish Ryan Smyth's wonderful hockey career in Edmonton, but this is just an awful take.

01-02 - Comrie leads team in scoring (career year), Smyth is 3rd. Smyth plays 22 less games, and has a better PPG.
Comrie 33G 27A 60P 82GP -> 0.73 PPG
Smyth 15G 35A 50P 60GP -> 0.83 PPG

02-03 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals despite only playing 66 games. Marchant is 2nd in scoring on the team for his career year. Comrie and Hemsky aren't worth talking about.
Marchant 20G 40A 60P 77GP -> 0.78 PPG
Smyth 27G 34A 61P 61GP -> 0.92 PPG

03-04 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals. A pretty lackluster year for everyone. Marchant and Comrie are gone. Hemsky is in his 2nd year.
Smyth - 23G 36A 59P 82GP -> 0.72 PPG
Hemsky - 12G 22A 34P 71GP -> 0.48 PPG

05-06 - Hemsky is more productive than Smyth this year as Pronger joins the Oilers, and scoring goes way up in the NHL after the lockout. Smyth leads the team in goals.
Smyth - 36G 30A 66P 75GP -> 0.88 PPG
Hemsky - 19G 58A 77P 81GP -> 0.95 PPG

06-07 - Smyth leads the team in scoring and goals despite being traded this year.
Smyth - 31G 22A 53P 53GP -> 1.0 PPG with Oilers
Hemsky - 13G 40A 53P 64GP -> 0.83 PPG

The only year after Weight where Smyth was not the most productive player for the Oilers was the Pronger year. Otherwise, Smyth is absolutely the best player on the Oilers post-Weight. It's certainly not Comrie or Marchant...

He was really good at scoring goals in the dead puck era.

Picture of Adam after reviewing this excellent analysis that proves once and for all Smyth's quality:

https://i1.wp.com/oilersnation.com/wp-content/uploads/Image/94AE7CD1843E14F7A164E78ABDC0D5.jpg?resize=650%2C448&ssl=1

Hahaha...fully convinced now. The man was a gem and a great Oiler who wasn't totally mercenary, over-rated and decidedly dim.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769048 is a reply to message #768983 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 15:11

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 16:50

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 16:19

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 14:45

NetBOG wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:52

He was the best player on the team post-Weight, pre-Pronger.

*cough, cough* Hemsky *cough*

I think Comrie was better than him in his prime too - and arguably even Marchant the one season.

I know that Adam likes to do everything he can to diminish Ryan Smyth's wonderful hockey career in Edmonton, but this is just an awful take.

01-02 - Comrie leads team in scoring (career year), Smyth is 3rd. Smyth plays 22 less games, and has a better PPG.
Comrie 33G 27A 60P 82GP -> 0.73 PPG
Smyth 15G 35A 50P 60GP -> 0.83 PPG

02-03 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals despite only playing 66 games. Marchant is 2nd in scoring on the team for his career year. Comrie and Hemsky aren't worth talking about.
Marchant 20G 40A 60P 77GP -> 0.78 PPG
Smyth 27G 34A 61P 61GP -> 0.92 PPG

03-04 - Smyth leads team in scoring and goals. A pretty lackluster year for everyone. Marchant and Comrie are gone. Hemsky is in his 2nd year.
Smyth - 23G 36A 59P 82GP -> 0.72 PPG
Hemsky - 12G 22A 34P 71GP -> 0.48 PPG

05-06 - Hemsky is more productive than Smyth this year as Pronger joins the Oilers, and scoring goes way up in the NHL after the lockout. Smyth leads the team in goals.
Smyth - 36G 30A 66P 75GP -> 0.88 PPG
Hemsky - 19G 58A 77P 81GP -> 0.95 PPG

06-07 - Smyth leads the team in scoring and goals despite being traded this year.
Smyth - 31G 22A 53P 53GP -> 1.0 PPG with Oilers
Hemsky - 13G 40A 53P 64GP -> 0.83 PPG

The only year after Weight where Smyth was not the most productive player for the Oilers was the Pronger year. Otherwise, Smyth is absolutely the best player on the Oilers post-Weight. It's certainly not Comrie or Marchant...

He was really good at scoring goals in the dead puck era.

Picture of Adam after reviewing this excellent analysis that proves once and for all Smyth's quality:

https://i1.wp.com/oilersnation.com/wp-content/uploads/Image/94AE7CD1843E14F7A164E78ABDC0D5.jpg?resize=650%2C448&ssl=1

GOLD!

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768951 is a reply to message #768945 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768960 is a reply to message #768951 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:39

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

Pronger?

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768962 is a reply to message #768960 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:46

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:39

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

Pronger?

Longevity and Production are pretty key criteria for me.

For me, I don't think Pronger or Joseph played long enough to be included.

There's a whole clump of what I would consider bubble guys:

Eberle 507 games (382 points)
Simpson 419 GP (365 pts)
Marchant 678 GP (342 pts)
MacTavish 701 GP (331 pts)
Hall 381 GP (328 pts)
Gagner 542 GP (317 pts)

All between 5-9 years with organization, and 15-21 in all-time Oilers points. But none of them really distanced themselves from this bubble, so I don't think I'd include them either. If Hall comes back, he has a good shot at doing so, and I would then include him also.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768965 is a reply to message #768962 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:53

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:46

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:39

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

Pronger?

Longevity and Production are pretty key criteria for me.

For me, I don't think Pronger or Joseph played long enough to be included.

There's a whole clump of what I would consider bubble guys:

Eberle 507 games (382 points)
Simpson 419 GP (365 pts)
Marchant 678 GP (342 pts)
MacTavish 701 GP (331 pts)
Hall 381 GP (328 pts)
Gagner 542 GP (317 pts)

All between 5-9 years with organization, and 15-21 in all-time Oilers points. But none of them really distanced themselves from this bubble, so I don't think I'd include them either. If Hall comes back, he has a good shot at doing so, and I would then include him also.

In my opinion, you are diminishing the honor of the ring if you are adding in guys like that. Even Hemsky, Horcoff.
Don't get me wrong, they are all really good players but retired numbers should be reserved for Hall of fame guys. The ring of honor is for guy who are right there but not hall of famers.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768966 is a reply to message #768965 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 13:56

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:53

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:46

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:39

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

Pronger?

Longevity and Production are pretty key criteria for me.

For me, I don't think Pronger or Joseph played long enough to be included.

There's a whole clump of what I would consider bubble guys:

Eberle 507 games (382 points)
Simpson 419 GP (365 pts)
Marchant 678 GP (342 pts)
MacTavish 701 GP (331 pts)
Hall 381 GP (328 pts)
Gagner 542 GP (317 pts)

All between 5-9 years with organization, and 15-21 in all-time Oilers points. But none of them really distanced themselves from this bubble, so I don't think I'd include them either. If Hall comes back, he has a good shot at doing so, and I would then include him also.

In my opinion, you are diminishing the honor of the ring if you are adding in guys like that. Even Hemsky, Horcoff.
Don't get me wrong, they are all really good players but retired numbers should be reserved for Hall of fame guys. The ring of honor is for guy who are right there but not hall of famers.

Gags got 8 points in one game! Ring of Honour!

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768969 is a reply to message #768965 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 14:14

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:53

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:46

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 13:39

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 11:39

This is the correct take, IMO. The Hamilton sweater is kind of a blight against this (can we unretire that?), but overall, I agree.

And there should be a ring of honour.

My Ring of Honour class:

Ryan Smyth
Doug Weight
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Charlie Huddy
Esa Tikkanen
Bill Ranford
(Eventually Ryan Nugent-Hopkins)

Anyone I'm missing?

Pronger?

Longevity and Production are pretty key criteria for me.

For me, I don't think Pronger or Joseph played long enough to be included.

There's a whole clump of what I would consider bubble guys:

Eberle 507 games (382 points)
Simpson 419 GP (365 pts)
Marchant 678 GP (342 pts)
MacTavish 701 GP (331 pts)
Hall 381 GP (328 pts)
Gagner 542 GP (317 pts)

All between 5-9 years with organization, and 15-21 in all-time Oilers points. But none of them really distanced themselves from this bubble, so I don't think I'd include them either. If Hall comes back, he has a good shot at doing so, and I would then include him also.

In my opinion, you are diminishing the honor of the ring if you are adding in guys like that. Even Hemsky, Horcoff.
Don't get me wrong, they are all really good players but retired numbers should be reserved for Hall of fame guys. The ring of honor is for guy who are right there but not hall of famers.

Wouldn't that literally only be Doug Weight? It certainly isn't Smyth. I can't imagine it's many others.

To me it is a way to highlight the key players in a franchise's history.

Smyth is 6th in franchise scoring. Second in games played.
Weight is 7th. 16th in games played.
Hemsky is 8th. 14th in games played.
Horcoff is 10th. 5th in games played.
Huddy is the third highest defenseman, behind two HOFers.

These are Top-10 scorers among the 40+ year history of the team, including all the Dynasty years and all the scoring that took place. They don't deserve a jersey retired, they don't deserve to be in the HOF, but they probably deserve to recognized as key pieces in the history of the franchise.

To Matheson's suggestion, when factoring in longevity and production, I don't think there's much of a case to be made for Fogolin, Gregg, Buchberger, Moog. I don't think Pronger or Joseph were here long enough. And Eberle, Simpson, Marchant, MacTavish, Hall, Gagner... I wouldn't include them either.

I'm really comfortable with the Class of 7 and adding Nuge after retirement (McDavid and Draisaitl likely being HOFers with retired jerseys someday). To me, that doesn't seem excessive over the course of 40 years.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2020 14:20]

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768977 is a reply to message #768945 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 17:12

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

I don’t think a ring of honour necessarily means that the player was a borderline HOF’er. A honoured jersey is significant to the club and what they did to honour the jersey on the ice and in the community while they wore it.

Smyth, Buchberger, Huddy, etc all exemplified what it meant to be an Oiler and are still are revered long after they left Edmonton.

Retired jerseys can be HOF’ers and hardware collectors. Ring of Honour is a different animal all together for this guy.

[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2020 17:14]

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768981 is a reply to message #768977 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 17:45

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:12

I don’t think a ring of honour necessarily means that the player was a borderline HOF’er. A honoured jersey is significant to the club and what they did to honour the jersey on the ice and in the community while they wore it.

Smyth, Buchberger, Huddy, etc all exemplified what it meant to be an Oiler and are still are revered long after they left Edmonton.

Retired jerseys can be HOF’ers and hardware collectors. Ring of Honour is a different animal all together for this guy.

Why revere Buchberger? He was a mediocre player, one of the worst captains in franchise history and then a ridiculous hanger-on for the worst management team in NHL history.

I can get there on Smyth and Huddy...but Buchberger? Might as well just put anyone who plays 8-10 seasons on the Oilers up then.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768987 is a reply to message #768981 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 19:38

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:45

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:12

I don’t think a ring of honour necessarily means that the player was a borderline HOF’er. A honoured jersey is significant to the club and what they did to honour the jersey on the ice and in the community while they wore it.

Smyth, Buchberger, Huddy, etc all exemplified what it meant to be an Oiler and are still are revered long after they left Edmonton.

Retired jerseys can be HOF’ers and hardware collectors. Ring of Honour is a different animal all together for this guy.

Why revere Buchberger? He was a mediocre player, one of the worst captains in franchise history and then a ridiculous hanger-on for the worst management team in NHL history.

I can get there on Smyth and Huddy...but Buchberger? Might as well just put anyone who plays 8-10 seasons on the Oilers up then.

Because I know him through a friend and I could probably score free tickets. 🤷🏽‍♂️

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #768990 is a reply to message #768987 ]	Wed, 28 October 2020 20:00

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 19:38

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:45

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2020 17:12

I don’t think a ring of honour necessarily means that the player was a borderline HOF’er. A honoured jersey is significant to the club and what they did to honour the jersey on the ice and in the community while they wore it.

Smyth, Buchberger, Huddy, etc all exemplified what it meant to be an Oiler and are still are revered long after they left Edmonton.

Retired jerseys can be HOF’ers and hardware collectors. Ring of Honour is a different animal all together for this guy.

Why revere Buchberger? He was a mediocre player, one of the worst captains in franchise history and then a ridiculous hanger-on for the worst management team in NHL history.

I can get there on Smyth and Huddy...but Buchberger? Might as well just put anyone who plays 8-10 seasons on the Oilers up then.

Because I know him through a friend and I could probably score free tickets. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Hahaha - excellent reasons!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769022 is a reply to message #768945 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 09:04

g2k
Messages: 2840
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

The whole house of cards toppled for me when they put that stupid Rod Phillips jersey up there.

I don’t even care that much about the topic now. It’s like a turd is floating in the pool. I don’t feel like swimming anymore.

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769023 is a reply to message #769022 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 09:38

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

question... Is Rod in the Hall?

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IRe: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769038 is a reply to message #769023 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 13:53

welcometotheOC
Messages: 646
Registered: April 2010
Location: Also, sadly, Cowtown

No Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 30 October 2020 09:38

question... Is Rod in the Hall?

Is that rhetorical? Yes, Rod is in the Hall of Fame.

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Re: IRe: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769095 is a reply to message #769038 ]	Mon, 02 November 2020 10:37

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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it was a legit question, I just didn't want to look it up. BUT, that's the checkmark Lowe's missing ;)

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Re: Gretzky on Number Retirement [message #769049 is a reply to message #769022 ]	Fri, 30 October 2020 15:15

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

g2k wrote on Fri, 30 October 2020 08:04

The whole house of cards toppled for me when they put that stupid Rod Phillips jersey up there.

I don’t even care that much about the topic now. It’s like a turd is floating in the pool. I don’t feel like swimming anymore.

Classic Caddy Shack..

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4ae47c0f8f5e113b25bc8f61f48ce7bb/tenor.gif?itemid=5467308

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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