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Draisatl Extension [message #825489]	Thu, 21 September 2023 00:38

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

We might as well get in front of this. As the hockey world has begun speculation this year (e.g.: Friedman). The significant cap changes coming up and Matthews's extension this summer add an interesting angle.

My two cents - Drai for the first time in his career is in a good spot to pick, he'll either get to choose to play with McDavid, play with Berard in Chicago or head to Anaheim to "be the guy". A zero state tax state brings Dallas into play as a wild card too (Benn's big number rolls off). All the Florida and NYC teams are full. Boston, Washington and Pittsburgh will all be rebuilding, but have the space. Philly could be interesting if they get their ducks in a row, they'll have the money.

A cup makes the Oiler's the likely. More dysfunction means see ya later...and who could blame him.

The dysfunction scenario, also means McDavid the year after...well...that's a long way away still, but we know it will be TO

rofl

rofl

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825532 is a reply to message #825489 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 13:13

inverno76
Messages: 2340
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

I do not know if it is really a dysfunctional scenario.

Draisaitl and McDavid's terms are coming up and they need new deals. Edmonton is considered a Cup contender. If this were any other team I doubt this is much of a story. Both players are more than likely to re-sign at least 4-5 year deals, and possibly another 8.

Let's hope this club (A) stays healthy and (B) plays to its potential. If both happen, then the extensions are a calculated formality. It is a great time to be an Oilers fan contrary to the naysayers.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825542 is a reply to message #825532 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:07

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Winning a cup is extremely hard. You need a good team but luck and health also play a part in who wins. Vegas is a good team but they also had a lot of things go their way. They had injuries work out for them, they had an OK goalie play out of his mind at the right time, they had other factors impact their roster decisions that worked out in their favor. Do I think they win if Lehner was their goalie? No. He got hurt, has been on LTIR that allowed them to do other things. Brossoit got hurt early in the Oilers series. He'd been their starter. Do I think they win if he doesn't get hurt? No I don't. But he did and Hill took off playing at a level he probably will never do again. They where a good team that had some breaks go their way. I am not taking anything away from them. They played well and earned their win over the Oilers but some things worked out that if they did it again, might not. Them's the breaks.

That being said. The Oilers are right there. They could have won last year if a break or 2 goes their way. They are on of the favs this season and will probably be for the next couple of seasons easily. So for McD and Leon, in all likelihood, their chances to win is highest if they stay together. They are extremely close. They will be paid very well no matter what team they go too. So if they want to play together and have a chance to win together, the best place to do it is in Edmonton. I think they will stay together.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825547 is a reply to message #825542 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

[Updated on: Mon, 25 September 2023 15:52]

Clean house or bust

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825549 is a reply to message #825547 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I do think 'luck' is involved with thei goalie situation in the playoffs and cap circumvention in the season. Smart GM to use the tools at his expense.
Luck that Stone was not out all year. Luck that Eichel played better than ever after coming back from his surgery. Luck that their 3rd (or did he start at 4th) strong goalie played out-of-this-world hockey in the playoffs.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825550 is a reply to message #825547 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825551 is a reply to message #825547 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

Luck with injuries, but had to use five goalie. Seems contradictory. I think all five of those goalie beat the Oilers and so would the two guys that left Vegas.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825552 is a reply to message #825550 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825553 is a reply to message #825549 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 16:00

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

I do think 'luck' is involved with thei goalie situation in the playoffs and cap circumvention in the season. Smart GM to use the tools at his expense.
Luck that Stone was not out all year. Luck that Eichel played better than ever after coming back from his surgery. Luck that their 3rd (or did he start at 4th) strong goalie played out-of-this-world hockey in the playoffs.

Does Hill get into the series as soon as he does or even at all if Brossoit doesn't hurt himself? Probably not.
Could Vegas have beaten the Oilers with Brossoit? Of course. They were a good team but was it a break he got hurt? Clearly.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825554 is a reply to message #825552 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825556 is a reply to message #825549 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 16:08

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 14:57

I do think 'luck' is involved with thei goalie situation in the playoffs and cap circumvention in the season. Smart GM to use the tools at his expense.
Luck that Stone was not out all year. Luck that Eichel played better than ever after coming back from his surgery. Luck that their 3rd (or did he start at 4th) strong goalie played out-of-this-world hockey in the playoffs.

By design, Bruce Cassidy employs a goalie friendly system.

https://theathletic.com/4301298/2023/03/12/golden-knights-jo nathan-quick-goalie-system/

Quote:

“We try not to change our style of play,” Cassidy told reporters Saturday night in Carolina. “I think most nights it’s goaltender friendly. The way we try to defend. We value that part of the game. I think it’s been a good marriage for everybody so far.”

Cap circumvention was not luck, it was smart. The Oilers could have done it with Yamamoto, maybe Kane, but they didn't because they didn't act smart. Adding another depth piece or two might have given us enough breaks to hold onto our many leads in that series.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825557 is a reply to message #825551 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 16:11

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Yes, can't say I've ever seen 3 goalie injuries (Lehner, Thompson, Brossoit) dressed up as luck.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825559 is a reply to message #825554 ]	Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825570 is a reply to message #825556 ]	Wed, 27 September 2023 13:38

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Having Stone go to LTIR for the whole season in order to circumvent the cap, was luck though. Also lucky that he was able to come back and be an impact player.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825573 is a reply to message #825570 ]	Wed, 27 September 2023 14:48

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

I mean he came back in game 1 of the playoffs.

You think it was luck that he was on LTIR through the trade deadline, allowing his team to pick up Ivan Barbashev, and suddenly became healthy for game 1? It was calculated. They overstated his back injury, just as the Lightning did with Kucherov and the Blackhawks did with Kane in previous years.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825579 is a reply to message #825573 ]	Wed, 27 September 2023 20:44

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Overstating and holding him out, using the cap relief, was good management. Him being injured enough to be off like that, but not injured enough that he a)couldn't come back or b) came back but was ineffective, was luck.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825585 is a reply to message #825557 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 09:44

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:11

Yes, can't say I've ever seen 3 goalie injuries (Lehner, Thompson, Brossoit) dressed up as luck.

It's a unique kind of luck how the 4th guy played better than all the others likely would have. Many years Hill could have been the Conn Smythe winner. He basically did what Cam Ward did back in the day, and Matt Murray.

No one expected him to play like he did, not even Vegas because it took those injuries to play him. LB was buckling for us until he pulled something. When a goalie pops into the lineup and with perfect timing plays the best hockey he likely will ever for his entire career for you just when you needed it, I'd say there is a luck factor.

We still outchanced Vegas throughout the series. Stupid defending, a bad decision by Nurse coupled with Perros being a Vegas fan, and the massive goalie mismatch in performance killed us. Of course, all 3 of those issues of course were under our control to avoid (Nurse not donating a fight to a plug, Woody and the gang realizing how badly we were being exposed). The goalie one being the hardest, and we decided to do nothing about it this summer.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 09:49]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825587 is a reply to message #825559 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825588 is a reply to message #825587 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 10:30

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

Basically it's the kind of luck where a Fernando Pisani ends up scoring 14 goals and 5 game winners in 1 playoff year.

Do we consider that luck? Or just management skill, or just stuff you expect to happen because management is so good at their job?

Almost everything worked in Vegas's favor that playoffs. Every goalie they played against collapsed. Perros licked their butts in a way that had the whole hockey word confused, which could not have ended up worse for us with Broberg just collapsing replacing Nurse, and Pietro had a huge game to finish the series. Their 5th string goalie played like a Conn Smythe winner. Stone on LTIR to cap scam (maybe this is skill) and the guy they used his cap space on also ends up playing the best hockey of his entire career. Just magic on top of magic. Could argue they were due, and for sure it is to the benefit of the NHL to finally throw Vegas some love after some weird playoff events in the past that we could call bad luck.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 10:33]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825589 is a reply to message #825587 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 11:10

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

Good management absolutely brings in Quick to sit in the pressbox. Good management isn't about knowing the future, that's how we get idiotic statements like checking the boxes. Good management is having options and contingency plans and hedged bets. Vegas does that, the Oilers don't. They adapt well when something negative happens, whether it's bad luck or the inevitable injuries. You're somehow making the leap of logic that needing 6 goalies last year was the management's fault. It's not. Guys get hurt. Player don't hit their expectations. That stuff will happen to every team this year. The question is what does a good manager do about it. The Oilers sit and hope. The Knights will find someone who works for them, usually at a good value. They are a better team than the Oilers for a reason. Pretending it's all luck is why the Oilers have been mired in mediocrity for 25 years.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825590 is a reply to message #825588 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 11:12

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

Basically it's the kind of luck where a Fernando Pisani ends up scoring 14 goals and 5 game winners in 1 playoff year.

Do we consider that luck? Or just management skill, or just stuff you expect to happen because management is so good at their job?

Almost everything worked in Vegas's favor that playoffs. Every goalie they played against collapsed. Perros licked their butts in a way that had the whole hockey word confused, which could not have ended up worse for us with Broberg just collapsing replacing Nurse, and Pietro had a huge game to finish the series. Their 5th string goalie played like a Conn Smythe winner. Stone on LTIR to cap scam (maybe this is skill) and the guy they used his cap space on also ends up playing the best hockey of his entire career. Just magic on top of magic. Could argue they were due, and for sure it is to the benefit of the NHL to finally throw Vegas some love after some weird playoff events in the past that we could call bad luck.

Great example with Pisani.

Was it good management that Pisani went off in 06? Hell no. He got hot at that time and it never happened again. If a person wants to say it was good management for having Hill on the team in the first place. I guess I can squint and say sure but like I said, if Lehner doesn't get hurt, that same "good management" wouldn't have had him there. That same "good management" didn't think Hill was good enough to be the starter to end off the season and go into the playoffs. A chain of events happened to get him into the line up and he got hot at the right time. Good for Vegas.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825591 is a reply to message #825589 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 11:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:10

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

Good management absolutely brings in Quick to sit in the pressbox. Good management isn't about knowing the future, that's how we get idiotic statements like checking the boxes. Good management is having options and contingency plans and hedged bets. Vegas does that, the Oilers don't. They adapt well when something negative happens, whether it's bad luck or the inevitable injuries. You're somehow making the leap of logic that needing 6 goalies last year was the management's fault. It's not. Guys get hurt. Player don't hit their expectations. That stuff will happen to every team this year. The question is what does a good manager do about it. The Oilers sit and hope. The Knights will find someone who works for them, usually at a good value. They are a better team than the Oilers for a reason. Pretending it's all luck is why the Oilers have been mired in mediocrity for 25 years.

We are just going to go round and round then on this topic.

Your opinion is that Vegas won based on nothing but "good management". My opinion is they made some good management decisions but even the best managed teams need some breaks which is what they got. So if Vegas and their "good management" because it's the same guys this year, if they don't win the cup again, what will be your excuse?

Boston won 65 games, had 135 pts, 22 better than any other team. Their coach won coach of the year. Their GM was nominated for GM of the year. So that to me says their management did a very good job. They got bounced first round by the 8th seed. So what happened?

As soon as game 1 happened, all of a sudden Boston's management and coaches went from being really good to crappy? If there was injuries, "good management" would have back ups in place to cover that so they just keep going. So explain to me happened.

Could it be.. that maybe even good managed teams need some breaks to go their way? That you need your stars to play well, that you need other guys at the right time to get hot. That you need some fortune with injuries. Lots of things have to go your way that don't involve "good management". And even a really good manage team can flat out lose to a red hot goalie. Is that possible or no?

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825592 is a reply to message #825590 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 11:37

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:12

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 10:09

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 16:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:57

smyth260 wrote on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:48

It’s funny reading a post asserting that Vegas just had the breaks. They were the top team in the conference, and played in 4 out of the last 6 western finals. They never drafted 1st overall, started with a starless expansion draft just 6 years ago, and any stars they do have were acquired with savy resource management as opposed to a lottery. They did it in the cap era where they can’t simply outspend their problems. Their cup is possibly the most luckless cup in NHL history.

Colorado and Tampa Bay are savy organizations. But they had some lottery luck too. Vegas had none of that. If the best luck they had was that their goalies kept getting injured…well…

I think a person is 100% completely delusional if you don't think breaks play a factor in the outcome of games or series.

What about good management?

Vegas signed Lehner to be their guy. He's signed for 2 more years at 5 mill. Lucky for them, he got hurt. You trying to tell me that good management made that happen? Come on.

No, good management is having 4 goalies better than what your conference finals opponent has. Plus a fifth guy I thought looked really good. You're letting the tail wag the dog here.

If Lehner doesn't get hurt, they wouldn't have went out and brought in the extra guys nor could they have afforded them. So you can sit there and say it was "good management" but the injury forced them to bring in way more guys than they normally would have. PLUS, the fact they brought in so many, says they didn't have a clue which one would be the best.

Lehner went down, so they had Thompson who was inexperienced and Brossoit. Then they brought in Hill as cover. Thompson went down. Then they were so confident in Brossoit and Hill, plus the rest of their organizational depth, they bought in Quick as additional cover. So good management my ass.

If you are such a good manager, then you should know the guys you have in the system can do the job so acquiring Quick to sit in the pressbox shouldn't have been necessary. If Brossoit doesn't get hurt, Hill does not play. He was made the starter at the end of the season and into the playoffs and didn't play a game in the playoffs until Brossoit went down. Brossoit was just mediocre in the first series and not great in the Oilers. It was fortunate that Hill played out of his mind for 6 weeks. If that "good management" knew he could do that, he would have started the playoffs. That's a fact man.

Basically it's the kind of luck where a Fernando Pisani ends up scoring 14 goals and 5 game winners in 1 playoff year.

Do we consider that luck? Or just management skill, or just stuff you expect to happen because management is so good at their job?

Almost everything worked in Vegas's favor that playoffs. Every goalie they played against collapsed. Perros licked their butts in a way that had the whole hockey word confused, which could not have ended up worse for us with Broberg just collapsing replacing Nurse, and Pietro had a huge game to finish the series. Their 5th string goalie played like a Conn Smythe winner. Stone on LTIR to cap scam (maybe this is skill) and the guy they used his cap space on also ends up playing the best hockey of his entire career. Just magic on top of magic. Could argue they were due, and for sure it is to the benefit of the NHL to finally throw Vegas some love after some weird playoff events in the past that we could call bad luck.

Great example with Pisani.

Was it good management that Pisani went off in 06? Hell no. He got hot at that time and it never happened again. If a person wants to say it was good management for having Hill on the team in the first place. I guess I can squint and say sure but like I said, if Lehner doesn't get hurt, that same "good management" wouldn't have had him there. That same "good management" didn't think Hill was good enough to be the starter to end off the season and go into the playoffs. A chain of events happened to get him into the line up and he got hot at the right time. Good for Vegas.

Will say this about Vegas, like what Pi is saying to some degree (although I think he enjoys showering Vegas with extra praise as a way to take shots at the Oilers and anyone that thinks the Oilers have done a good job). Vegas has done almost everything you could hope for a team to do in order to give themselves a good shot every year. They have made a number of massive blockbuster trades. They have pulled in a number of high profile UFA's who pass the eye test, but most also pass the nerdy analytics test too. They aren't pulling in Lucic's. They've pulled in players that are elite by most metrics you can look at. Some of the reason is their taxes of course, and their location, so some luck involved there as well, but it is what it is. They stack depth and have properly managed their cap to be able to do so. Managed assets very well. They even go the extra mile and scam the cap with LTIR space, wish we had the balls to do it too.

I can't really think of an area that Vegas has not tried to improve to the best of their ability. The org has been wheeling and dealing since before their first draft, scamming the cap, whining to the league. Everything. They still needed some luck to finally win (we almost did the same thing with Roli and playing crap goalie after crap goalie in 2006, until we ran into Ward and decided to kill our own goalie), but that's how it is for most cup winners. Keep giving yourself a shot and maybe the stars finally align for you. Although Perros' garbage still pisses me off.

We cannot say the same at all about the Oilers, that they have done everything possible to improve. We have taken lucky high picks for granted for years and valued friendships over performance in management forever. Maybe that's finally changing, but we had to waste almost a decade of a generational talents career to finally get serious.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 11:42]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825595 is a reply to message #825591 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 12:45

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:26

We are just going to go round and round then on this topic.

Your opinion is that Vegas won based on nothing but "good management". My opinion is they made some good management decisions but even the best managed teams need some breaks which is what they got. So if Vegas and their "good management" because it's the same guys this year, if they don't win the cup again, what will be your excuse?

Boston won 65 games, had 135 pts, 22 better than any other team. Their coach won coach of the year. Their GM was nominated for GM of the year. So that to me says their management did a very good job. They got bounced first round by the 8th seed. So what happened?

As soon as game 1 happened, all of a sudden Boston's management and coaches went from being really good to crappy? If there was injuries, "good management" would have back ups in place to cover that so they just keep going. So explain to me happened.

Could it be.. that maybe even good managed teams need some breaks to go their way? That you need your stars to play well, that you need other guys at the right time to get hot. That you need some fortune with injuries. Lots of things have to go your way that don't involve "good management". And even a really good manage team can flat out lose to a red hot goalie. Is that possible or no?

You've got a few fallacies here.

The biggest is that no one has said that Vegas had no luck involved. Certainly, any hockey team is going to have a few good breaks. No one has denied that. The Bruins are a good example of that - good team, but hit a hot goalie who hadn't played at that level for ages, and it certainly didn't last. If Bobrovsky had played the way he did in the Finals, the Panthers probably don't get out of the first round.

There are things out of your control, and they can help a team win or lose. Good management puts a team in the best position to win, and to overcome bad luck and capitalize on good luck.

Vegas built a really deep team who had redundancies at virtually every position. They could overcome injuries because they made sure that they had back-up plans. They cleverly used their cap space to build and add, even when they already had a pretty solid team. They also have made some hard decisions quickly on players, without allowing sentimentality or the price they paid to acquire those players to impact their decisions. At the point they don't think Fleury or Pacioretty can help them win, they cut bait and move on.

To tie this back to the original discussion, I think the obvious question is whether Oilers management is at the same level. I think there's a lot of good reasons to think it's not.

- Willingness to use cap strategies to the best of the team's abilities? Well, last year we had opportunities to LTIR either or both of Yamamoto and Kane and re-use their cap space. Instead we did neither - even though the injury to Kane was clearly never one he fully recovered from. If you look at the history with Holland, it's really even worse. The best example is a couple years ago when he told the assembled press corps that he needed to save cap room just in case 7th defenceman Slater Koekkoek made a return from injury before the playoffs. It's pretty clear he has his head stuck in the sand when it comes to this stuff. There's been rumours the Oilers have been one of the more vocal teams complaining about loopholes, but as long as they exist, if you ignore them and let other teams benefit, then you're just hurting yourself out of spite.

- Willingness to cut bait? Time and time again we've seen the Oilers hold on to players and highly touted prospects until the point where they have negative value. There were points during Kassian's tenure here where he would have had value around the league...we needed to give away significant assets to off-load him. Our record with prospects is even worse. We hype the hell out of them early, we see some points where they have real value but hang on to them even if the team should be able to see some of the negative signs. At the point where they're dealt, it's for peanuts if we get anything at all. Puljujarvi is of course the most recent, but the team has done it so many times. We'll see in the next couple years whether it happens again with Broberg and Holloway - the team leaked at the last deadline that those were the players that teams were repeatedly asking about and that Holland didn't want to part with them for post-season help. If Holloway peaks as a third liner, then should we maybe have considered it? Vegas has - they've dealt away virtually all their good prospects for more help sooner and it has clearly paid off...even if they have lost at least one gem along the way.

Building depth? Man, it's hard to think of a team that's done worse than the Oilers, or that is more wrecked by a single major injury. The Knights were without possibly their best player for months last year, and may have even held him out longer so that they could use his cap space. The Oilers had some key players banged up in the playoffs and couldn't even afford to rest them because there's just no one available to step up there.

The fact is, the Vegas Golden Knights organization is more professional, more organized, more strategic and more committed to trying to win than the Edmonton Oilers have been. Ken Holland has been just the latest train wreck of a general manager but he's continued to under-invest in scouting and analytics, and over-rely on his old man instincts and those of the echo chamber he built around himself.

Where this relates to Draisaitl is that if you're deciding on where to play the most important years of your career - the ones where you have the best chance of being a major factor in your team winning the Cup, you want a management team who is going to do what is needed to win. That's more important than friendships - you can and likely will stay friends with anyone you want to whether you play with them or not. It's more important than the money - you're going to make a fortune anywhere you play if you're Leon Draisaitl, and can probably be flexible to find a deal that works wherever you want to play. Legacy is determined in big part by whether you ever got to carry the Cup around the ice. If the management team doesn't look like they can build the support around you, then you have to decide to move on.

I'm somewhat hopeful that Jeff Jackson has a different, more professional vision for the Oilers and that he's been given the rope to actually force change - including sending the GM to the retirement home after this season - but I do worry whether it's a little late in the game given the impending decisions for both Draisaitl and McDavid. Fingers crossed that it's not.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825596 is a reply to message #825595 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 13:03

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 12:45

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:26

We are just going to go round and round then on this topic.

Your opinion is that Vegas won based on nothing but "good management". My opinion is they made some good management decisions but even the best managed teams need some breaks which is what they got. So if Vegas and their "good management" because it's the same guys this year, if they don't win the cup again, what will be your excuse?

Boston won 65 games, had 135 pts, 22 better than any other team. Their coach won coach of the year. Their GM was nominated for GM of the year. So that to me says their management did a very good job. They got bounced first round by the 8th seed. So what happened?

As soon as game 1 happened, all of a sudden Boston's management and coaches went from being really good to crappy? If there was injuries, "good management" would have back ups in place to cover that so they just keep going. So explain to me happened.

Could it be.. that maybe even good managed teams need some breaks to go their way? That you need your stars to play well, that you need other guys at the right time to get hot. That you need some fortune with injuries. Lots of things have to go your way that don't involve "good management". And even a really good manage team can flat out lose to a red hot goalie. Is that possible or no?

You've got a few fallacies here.

The biggest is that no one has said that Vegas had no luck involved. Certainly, any hockey team is going to have a few good breaks. No one has denied that. The Bruins are a good example of that - good team, but hit a hot goalie who hadn't played at that level for ages, and it certainly didn't last. If Bobrovsky had played the way he did in the Finals, the Panthers probably don't get out of the first round.

There are things out of your control, and they can help a team win or lose. Good management puts a team in the best position to win, and to overcome bad luck and capitalize on good luck.

Vegas built a really deep team who had redundancies at virtually every position. They could overcome injuries because they made sure that they had back-up plans. They cleverly used their cap space to build and add, even when they already had a pretty solid team. They also have made some hard decisions quickly on players, without allowing sentimentality or the price they paid to acquire those players to impact their decisions. At the point they don't think Fleury or Pacioretty can help them win, they cut bait and move on.

To tie this back to the original discussion, I think the obvious question is whether Oilers management is at the same level. I think there's a lot of good reasons to think it's not.

- Willingness to use cap strategies to the best of the team's abilities? Well, last year we had opportunities to LTIR either or both of Yamamoto and Kane and re-use their cap space. Instead we did neither - even though the injury to Kane was clearly never one he fully recovered from. If you look at the history with Holland, it's really even worse. The best example is a couple years ago when he told the assembled press corps that he needed to save cap room just in case 7th defenceman Slater Koekkoek made a return from injury before the playoffs. It's pretty clear he has his head stuck in the sand when it comes to this stuff. There's been rumours the Oilers have been one of the more vocal teams complaining about loopholes, but as long as they exist, if you ignore them and let other teams benefit, then you're just hurting yourself out of spite.

- Willingness to cut bait? Time and time again we've seen the Oilers hold on to players and highly touted prospects until the point where they have negative value. There were points during Kassian's tenure here where he would have had value around the league...we needed to give away significant assets to off-load him. Our record with prospects is even worse. We hype the hell out of them early, we see some points where they have real value but hang on to them even if the team should be able to see some of the negative signs. At the point where they're dealt, it's for peanuts if we get anything at all. Puljujarvi is of course the most recent, but the team has done it so many times. We'll see in the next couple years whether it happens again with Broberg and Holloway - the team leaked at the last deadline that those were the players that teams were repeatedly asking about and that Holland didn't want to part with them for post-season help. If Holloway peaks as a third liner, then should we maybe have considered it? Vegas has - they've dealt away virtually all their good prospects for more help sooner and it has clearly paid off...even if they have lost at least one gem along the way.

Building depth? Man, it's hard to think of a team that's done worse than the Oilers, or that is more wrecked by a single major injury. The Knights were without possibly their best player for months last year, and may have even held him out longer so that they could use his cap space. The Oilers had some key players banged up in the playoffs and couldn't even afford to rest them because there's just no one available to step up there.

The fact is, the Vegas Golden Knights organization is more professional, more organized, more strategic and more committed to trying to win than the Edmonton Oilers have been. Ken Holland has been just the latest train wreck of a general manager but he's continued to under-invest in scouting and analytics, and over-rely on his old man instincts and those of the echo chamber he built around himself.

Where this relates to Draisaitl is that if you're deciding on where to play the most important years of your career - the ones where you have the best chance of being a major factor in your team winning the Cup, you want a management team who is going to do what is needed to win. That's more important than friendships - you can and likely will stay friends with anyone you want to whether you play with them or not. It's more important than the money - you're going to make a fortune anywhere you play if you're Leon Draisaitl, and can probably be flexible to find a deal that works wherever you want to play. Legacy is determined in big part by whether you ever got to carry the Cup around the ice. If the management team doesn't look like they can build the support around you, then you have to decide to move on.

I'm somewhat hopeful that Jeff Jackson has a different, more professional vision for the Oilers and that he's been given the rope to actually force change - including sending the GM to the retirement home after this season - but I do worry whether it's a little late in the game given the impending decisions for both Draisaitl and McDavid. Fingers crossed that it's not.

I do not have fallacies in here, it's a difference of opinion from yours. A false statement would be saying Adam Larsson plays for the Edmonton Oilers which he does not.

A fallacy would be you welcoming other opinions other than yours.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 13:05]

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825598 is a reply to message #825596 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 13:28

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 13:03

I do not have fallacies in here, it's a difference of opinion from yours. A false statement would be saying Adam Larsson plays for the Edmonton Oilers which he does not.

A fallacy would be you welcoming other opinions other than yours.

Fallacy - a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.

I think you're confusing that with just something that is wrong. Fallacy isn't the opposite of fact.

Fallacy #1: "Your opinion is that Vegas won based on nothing but "good management"."

You are telling CrusaderPi what his opinion is, and you're incorrect because he never said they didn't get any breaks or that no luck went in to it.

Fallacy #2: "So if Vegas and their "good management" because it's the same guys this year, if they don't win the cup again, what will be your excuse?"

This is suggesting that if they don't win the Cup this year, then the argument that they have better management is flawed. That's clearly not true because while they have better management than the Oilers, they're not the only team in the league with decent management. Winning is hard - but their management puts them in a better position to do it. CrusaderPi can still be right that they're better than Ken Holland and company, whether they repeat or not. I mean, I think you'd have a hard time getting almost anyone but the most Pollyanna of fans to suggest that Ken Holland is better than the Knights management (or the Lightning's, or the Bruins', or several other teams).

Those are just in your first couple sentences of one post. There's more throughout this entire thread, but I don't want to beat you up here for it too much because that's making this thread about you when the point should be whether the Oilers management is good enough to convince Leon Draisaitl that he should stay in Edmonton and they need to show a ton of improvement to get there. I mean, it's not very hard to imagine a scenario where the Oilers have a good season on the back of great performance by McDavid and Draisaitl and we get bounced early again due to crummy netminding. If that happens, that's not bad luck because it's a known flaw that we haven't addressed year after year.

Or if, hockey gods forbid, one of those guys gets injured and misses 3 months of action, it's not hard to imagine the team going in to a nose-dive without them and maybe even missing the playoffs because there's little depth behind them and because the GM is hesitant to re-spend their cap space if they're not ruled out for the entire year - another couple known flaws in the team that haven't been meaningfully addressed.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 13:30]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825599 is a reply to message #825598 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 13:36

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 13:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 13:03

I do not have fallacies in here, it's a difference of opinion from yours. A false statement would be saying Adam Larsson plays for the Edmonton Oilers which he does not.

A fallacy would be you welcoming other opinions other than yours.

Fallacy - a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.

I think you're confusing that with just something that is wrong. Fallacy isn't the opposite of fact.

Fallacy #1: "Your opinion is that Vegas won based on nothing but "good management"."

You are telling CrusaderPi what his opinion is, and you're incorrect because he never said they didn't get any breaks or that no luck went in to it.

Fallacy #2: "So if Vegas and their "good management" because it's the same guys this year, if they don't win the cup again, what will be your excuse?"

This is suggesting that if they don't win the Cup this year, then the argument that they have better management is flawed. That's clearly not true because while they have better management than the Oilers, they're not the only team in the league with decent management. Winning is hard - but their management puts them in a better position to do it. CrusaderPi can still be right that they're better than Ken Holland and company, whether they repeat or not. I mean, I think you'd have a hard time getting almost anyone but the most Pollyanna of fans to suggest that Ken Holland is better than the Knights management (or the Lightning's, or the Bruins', or several other teams).

Those are just in your first couple sentences of one post. There's more throughout this entire thread, but I don't want to beat you up here for it too much because that's making this thread about you when the point should be whether the Oilers management is good enough to convince Leon Draisaitl that he should stay in Edmonton and they need to show a ton of improvement to get there. I mean, it's not very hard to imagine a scenario where the Oilers have a good season on the back of great performance by McDavid and Draisaitl and we get bounced early again due to crummy netminding. If that happens, that's not bad luck because it's a known flaw that we haven't addressed year after year.

Or if, hockey gods forbid, one of those guys gets injured and misses 3 months of action, it's not hard to imagine the team going in to a nose-dive without them and maybe even missing the playoffs because there's little depth behind them and because the GM is hesitant to re-spend their cap space if they're not ruled out for the entire year - another couple known flaws in the team that haven't been meaningfully addressed.

Thank you once again for telling how I need to think and why when I don't regurgitate your opinion and you opinon alone, it's wrong.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825601 is a reply to message #825599 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 13:58

Dragon_Matt
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Location: edmonton

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solid rebuttal.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825604 is a reply to message #825601 ]	Thu, 28 September 2023 15:54

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 13:58

solid rebuttal.

It's the truth. I honesty don't give a crap what so ever what Adam says. It won't change my opinion. But I am not stupid. I know he will disagree with me no matter what I say because he gets off on it. I could copy and paste last nights stats page with the date on it and he will tell me I'm wrong in some way. So why pretend that isn't how it is. I deal with people just like him all the time in my line of work. I just smile and nod, pretend what he says matters to me then go about my business.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2023 15:56]

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825663 is a reply to message #825604 ]	Mon, 02 October 2023 10:30

inverno76
Messages: 2340
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 15:54

Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 13:58

solid rebuttal.

It's the truth. I honesty don't give a crap what so ever what Adam says. It won't change my opinion. But I am not stupid. I know he will disagree with me no matter what I say because he gets off on it. I could copy and paste last nights stats page with the date on it and he will tell me I'm wrong in some way. So why pretend that isn't how it is. I deal with people just like him all the time in my line of work. I just smile and nod, pretend what he says matters to me then go about my business.

It sounds like a witch hunt. The greatest witch hunt anyone has ever saw.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825679 is a reply to message #825663 ]	Tue, 03 October 2023 09:24

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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I think I recall just a week or two ago, you and Adam were on the same page in a debate with Pi.
Adam likes debating, which he does with everyone. Not arguing. Engaging, educating debate of opinions supported with fact and scenarios.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825683 is a reply to message #825592 ]	Tue, 03 October 2023 11:08

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:37

Will say this about Vegas, like what Pi is saying to some degree (although I think he enjoys showering Vegas with extra praise as a way to take shots at the Oilers and anyone that thinks the Oilers have done a good job).

Forgot to respond to this one.

I'm in a fantasy baseball draft with a Vegas, uh, official. He got a day with the cup last summer. As you might imagine the group chat got pretty feisty during the series last year. A side convo got started where we got into some broad talk about management philosophy and I really like the way Vegas conducts their business. They work fast, they work to a plan, but most importantly they work to a goal. When they make a mistake and determine a decision was wrong, they fix it. It's addressed and they move on (Patches and Reilly Smith were the examples). The biggest difference between them and the Oilers is the total focus on the big goal they've set. Everything contributes to that goal or it's discarded. I 100% believe that's why Vegas is lucky. They earn it.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825686 is a reply to message #825683 ]	Tue, 03 October 2023 11:24

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 03 October 2023 11:08

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 28 September 2023 11:37

Will say this about Vegas, like what Pi is saying to some degree (although I think he enjoys showering Vegas with extra praise as a way to take shots at the Oilers and anyone that thinks the Oilers have done a good job).

Forgot to respond to this one.

I'm in a fantasy baseball draft with a Vegas, uh, official. He got a day with the cup last summer. As you might imagine the group chat got pretty feisty during the series last year. A side convo got started where we got into some broad talk about management philosophy and I really like the way Vegas conducts their business. They work fast, they work to a plan, but most importantly they work to a goal. When they make a mistake and determine a decision was wrong, they fix it. It's addressed and they move on (Patches and Reilly Smith were the examples). The biggest difference between them and the Oilers is the total focus on the big goal they've set. Everything contributes to that goal or it's discarded. I 100% believe that's why Vegas is lucky. They earn it.

I agree. I think both Adam and I had a similar post here. Vegas has been making move after move to improve their chances. Actually improve, not just doing stuff for the sake of doing it. Still needed a bunch of crap going their way, but almost every cup winner does.

Even if the Oilers manage a cup I think anyone would have a hard time arguing it was earned by management. Want it anyways though:)

[Updated on: Tue, 03 October 2023 11:52]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825794 is a reply to message #825679 ]	Wed, 11 October 2023 09:16

inverno76
Messages: 2340
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 03 October 2023 09:24

I think I recall just a week or two ago, you and Adam were on the same page in a debate with Pi.
Adam likes debating, which he does with everyone. Not arguing. Engaging, educating debate of opinions supported with fact and scenarios.

How much would this place suck if we all just agreed with each other.

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825796 is a reply to message #825794 ]	Wed, 11 October 2023 09:17

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 11 October 2023 09:16

Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 03 October 2023 09:24

I think I recall just a week or two ago, you and Adam were on the same page in a debate with Pi.
Adam likes debating, which he does with everyone. Not arguing. Engaging, educating debate of opinions supported with fact and scenarios.

How much would this place suck if we all just agreed with each other.

I disagree. Everything is better when everyone agrees

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Draisatl Extension [message #825799 is a reply to message #825796 ]	Wed, 11 October 2023 09:24

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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I disagree... light something on fire!

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