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Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823673]	Tue, 16 May 2023 22:39

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Who should get the Coyote franchise when it gets moved?[ 28 vote(s) ]

1. Quebec City (Nordiques 2.0 !!) 15 / 54%
2. Houston (Aeros Part 2! ) 4 / 14%
3. Saskatoon (name would obviously be Riders!) 1 / 4%
4. Another California team! (San Diego Seals!) 1 / 4%
5. Kansas City (Second time's the charm!.. Go Scouts!) 2 / 7%
6. Portland, Oregon 1 / 4%
7. Wherever the guy with the most money Tells Gary to put it.. 3 / 11%
8. It ain't GOIN' NOWHERE!! Gary's No Quitter! .. Mullet Arena 4Ever!! 1 / 4%

https://twitter.com/brahmresnik/status/1658669215086444545?s =61&t=WWzo5XOO0SDsOISFpfGKMg

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/arizona-coyotes-arena-prop osal-in-tempe-defeated-by-public-vote

Gary Bettman;

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:46]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823676 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 23:35

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I would love a reason to really start to hate Saskatoon.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823678 is a reply to message #823676 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 05:46

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Isn't Houston the 4th biggest city in the US? Have to think Bettman would love to put a team there.

I would think Houston, KC, and Quebec would be the top 3. Not sure I get the rumblings about Atlanta getting another team - doubt NHL hockey is even top 5 in terms of draw in Atlanta

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823681 is a reply to message #823678 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:20

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I think Cleveland has the largest hockey ready rink that's not already being used by the NHL. Bring back the Barons!

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823687 is a reply to message #823681 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:15

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 12:20

Bring back the Barons!

One can never have enough Barons!

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823688 is a reply to message #823687 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:17

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:15

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 12:20

Bring back the Barons!

One can never have enough Barons!

I miss the farm team being in OKC like you wouldn't believe.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823690 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:27

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

I voted Quebec City because they should get a team, but I don't think it would actually happen. The NHL wants to keep the team out west to maintain some semblance of geographic balance.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823694 is a reply to message #823690 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:03

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:27

I voted Quebec City because they should get a team, but I don't think it would actually happen. The NHL wants to keep the team out west to maintain some semblance of geographic balance.

^Yep...plus the Toyota Center in Houston is already hockey ready.

Better off moving the Coyotes now and work out something with Matt Ishbia (owner of the Suns) to see if they can get a new basketball/hockey stadium while bringing another hockey team out there via expansion....

....then adding Quebec City via expansion too to balance things out.

Some clowns are insisting Bettman should beg Matt Ishbia to collaborate now asap but that's a great way to burn a bridge ensuring another hockey team is never returning to the Phoenix area. Best course of action is to "play the long game."

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823697 is a reply to message #823694 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:14

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:03

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:27

I voted Quebec City because they should get a team, but I don't think it would actually happen. The NHL wants to keep the team out west to maintain some semblance of geographic balance.

^Yep...plus the Toyota Center in Houston is already hockey ready.

Better off moving the Coyotes now and work out something with Matt Ishbia (owner of the Suns) to see if they can get a new basketball/hockey stadium while bringing another hockey team out there via expansion....

....then adding Quebec City via expansion too to balance things out.

Some clowns are insisting Bettman should beg Matt Ishbia to collaborate now asap but that's a great way to burn a bridge ensuring another hockey team is never returning to the Phoenix area. Best course of action is to "play the long game."

I thought they took the ice plant out of the Houston Arena a few years back.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823699 is a reply to message #823697 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:25

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 12:14

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:03

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:27

I voted Quebec City because they should get a team, but I don't think it would actually happen. The NHL wants to keep the team out west to maintain some semblance of geographic balance.

^Yep...plus the Toyota Center in Houston is already hockey ready.

Better off moving the Coyotes now and work out something with Matt Ishbia (owner of the Suns) to see if they can get a new basketball/hockey stadium while bringing another hockey team out there via expansion....

....then adding Quebec City via expansion too to balance things out.

Some clowns are insisting Bettman should beg Matt Ishbia to collaborate now asap but that's a great way to burn a bridge ensuring another hockey team is never returning to the Phoenix area. Best course of action is to "play the long game."

I thought they took the ice plant out of the Houston Arena a few years back.

Pretty sure they can find a way to re-implement that accd to everyone in the media

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823701 is a reply to message #823681 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 12:20

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:20

I think Cleveland has the largest hockey ready rink that's not already being used by the NHL. Bring back the Barons!

Agree!
https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2021/09/15/the-last-baron /

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823702 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 12:37

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

In regards to expansion since QC is unlikely to get the Coyotes, I don’t want to see anymore expansion in my life.

That of course is wishful thinking but I think 32 is a perfect number. Half the teams make the playoffs and it can continue to be halved to a cup winner. Any more teams, and I think it becomes unreasonably difficult to win a cup. If we get to a league with 36 teams, 40 teams…just too many.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823703 is a reply to message #823702 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 13:06

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:37

In regards to expansion since QC is unlikely to get the Coyotes, I don’t want to see anymore expansion in my life.

That of course is wishful thinking but I think 32 is a perfect number. Half the teams make the playoffs and it can continue to be halved to a cup winner. Any more teams, and I think it becomes unreasonably difficult to win a cup. If we get to a league with 36 teams, 40 teams…just too many.

QC would be the ideal choice for the game of hockey, QC hates Montreal (in general), it'd be an awesome rivalry.. they also are getting 18K attendance for their junior team in the playoffs.. I think they could support an NHL team.

But.. NHL Corp. is focused on USA TV.. and ESPN's favour.

Agree about more expansion.. the product is getting pretty watered down already.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823706 is a reply to message #823701 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 13:26

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 12:20

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:20

I think Cleveland has the largest hockey ready rink that's not already being used by the NHL. Bring back the Barons!

Agree!
https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2021/09/15/the-last-baron /

Single tear man. That hits right in the feels.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823707 is a reply to message #823703 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 13:28

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 13:06

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:37

In regards to expansion since QC is unlikely to get the Coyotes, I don’t want to see anymore expansion in my life.

That of course is wishful thinking but I think 32 is a perfect number. Half the teams make the playoffs and it can continue to be halved to a cup winner. Any more teams, and I think it becomes unreasonably difficult to win a cup. If we get to a league with 36 teams, 40 teams…just too many.

QC would be the ideal choice for the game of hockey, QC hates Montreal (in general), it'd be an awesome rivalry.. they also are getting 18K attendance for their junior team in the playoffs.. I think they could support an NHL team.

But.. NHL Corp. is focused on USA TV.. and ESPN's favour.

Agree about more expansion.. the product is getting pretty watered down already.

I think they have to go to 36 teams with 32 in the playoffs now. Too many teams are out too soon now. Either that or they have to go to 40 teams and split into a premier and championship tier.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823709 is a reply to message #823707 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 14:37

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I would LOVE another Canadian team, but it won't be.
It'll be Houston, Sandiego, Austin, Jacksonville, Indianapolis. Some US market with 1 mil-ish population. Quebec city and Halifax are only 500K and Saskatoon is less than 300K

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823714 is a reply to message #823709 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 15:33

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 14:37

I would LOVE another Canadian team, but it won't be.
It'll be Houston, Sandiego, Austin, Jacksonville, Indianapolis. Some US market with 1 mil-ish population. Quebec city and Halifax are only 500K and Saskatoon is less than 300K

Saskatoon would likely get support from all over the province much like the Riders, but I agree that Bettman won't likely be looking at Canada for a new home for the 'Yotes.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823718 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:32

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

A couple thoughts:

1) why would they vote down an arena with no public funds? That seemed to me a pretty good deal for the city. I don't know why it even had to be referendumed - just seems like something designed for any large project to be NIMBYed out of existence.

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

I do think the University rink is a bit of a joke though...at least they don't have the curtained off dressing rooms any more.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823719 is a reply to message #823703 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:34

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 13:06

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:37

In regards to expansion since QC is unlikely to get the Coyotes, I don’t want to see anymore expansion in my life.

That of course is wishful thinking but I think 32 is a perfect number. Half the teams make the playoffs and it can continue to be halved to a cup winner. Any more teams, and I think it becomes unreasonably difficult to win a cup. If we get to a league with 36 teams, 40 teams…just too many.

QC would be the ideal choice for the game of hockey, QC hates Montreal (in general), it'd be an awesome rivalry.. they also are getting 18K attendance for their junior team in the playoffs.. I think they could support an NHL team.

But.. NHL Corp. is focused on USA TV.. and ESPN's favour.

Agree about more expansion.. the product is getting pretty watered down already.

Worth noting - the Jets moved to Arizona because the Phoenix Roadrunners were getting 18,000 fans to watch an IHL team in their downtown arena. Location and price make some of these lower league teams more popular. Winnipeg isn't giving the same rabid support to the Jets already now that the team's peaked and probably on the downturn. I don't think there's any guarantee that a bad team thrives in Quebec at NHL price points either...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823724 is a reply to message #823718 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 17:17

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 15:32

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

If you like that hockey is ingrained in the culture of Canada, then the country needs to have NHL teams. I like that about Canada, and want it to continue. Another NHL team in the country helps with that.

Our international teams could really use some awesome French goaltenders in the pipeline...

Clean house or bust

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823726 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 18:26

Kr55
Messages: 10781
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Quebec for sure. We all need to get out money's worth with that $400M+ arena that equalization payments paid for 100%. icon_wink

icon_wink

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823728 is a reply to message #823673 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 20:36

g2k
Messages: 2841
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

It won’t be a Canadian city.

The NHL likely feels there is no need to grow the game up here. Putting a team in Quebec isn’t going to bring many more fans to loving the NHL.

I couldn’t decide on a US city, so I picked San Diego because I love visiting there.

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823729 is a reply to message #823718 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 21:46

stemhovlichski
Messages: 349
Registered: March 2006
Location: NSR

No Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:32

A couple thoughts:

1) why would they vote down an arena with no public funds? That seemed to me a pretty good deal for the city. I don't know why it even had to be referendumed - just seems like something designed for any large project to be NIMBYed out of existence.

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

I do think the University rink is a bit of a joke though...at least they don't have the curtained off dressing rooms any more.

Tempe development info: https://kjzz.org/content/1844391/what-tempe-voters-need-know -about-props-301-302-303-coyotes-arena-and-entertainment

Looks like Tempe voted on facts not fantasy. They have Proposition votes in the States because the public believes in democracy and holds their politicians accountable to the point they can recall their elected officials if they feel the need. You want the job, you do what the public expects of you right or wrong. Spending public money on private deals makes much less sense in AZ where income tax is low and any losses would have to made up with property and/or sales tax increases which are political suicide with the retirement population.

Edmonton has had mayors and councils who made downtown Edmonton easy for big business and developers to have their way. The Oilers have a sweetheart deal of an arena. Katz Group doesn't have to compete with Northlands anymore because the City nuked that organization. Qualico is developing the Station Lands as fast as possible right now too. Property taxes keep going up to the limit to pay for it all too. Mandel also worked hard to shut down the Municipal Airport here so big buildings could go up up up. There's never really been a public accounting of the true cost of the arena here, so we don't know if it's been a good deal or not. Edmonton City Centre is a ghost mall, downtown is a zombie apocalypse, the area around the arena is a set for Breaking Bad, but, hey, if you were watching the playoffs you saw what a great deal a condo in Ice District is for $850k including parking and a couple of Oilers' tickets thrown in. I hope downtown and area revitalizes once the developments start filling up, but for now it's depressing.

Restored: "We're sucking hind banana here." - Pat Quinn, Jan 18, 2010

"...the Oilers have been rebuilding for so long that it’s hard not to be cynical." - NBC's Ryan Dadoun Jan 2, 2015

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823730 is a reply to message #823729 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 09:09

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

stemhovlichski wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 22:46

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:32

A couple thoughts:

1) why would they vote down an arena with no public funds? That seemed to me a pretty good deal for the city. I don't know why it even had to be referendumed - just seems like something designed for any large project to be NIMBYed out of existence.

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

I do think the University rink is a bit of a joke though...at least they don't have the curtained off dressing rooms any more.

Tempe development info: https://kjzz.org/content/1844391/what-tempe-voters-need-know -about-props-301-302-303-coyotes-arena-and-entertainment

Looks like Tempe voted on facts not fantasy. They have Proposition votes in the States because the public believes in democracy and holds their politicians accountable to the point they can recall their elected officials if they feel the need. You want the job, you do what the public expects of you right or wrong. Spending public money on private deals makes much less sense in AZ where income tax is low and any losses would have to made up with property and/or sales tax increases which are political suicide with the retirement population.

Edmonton has had mayors and councils who made downtown Edmonton easy for big business and developers to have their way. The Oilers have a sweetheart deal of an arena. Katz Group doesn't have to compete with Northlands anymore because the City nuked that organization. Qualico is developing the Station Lands as fast as possible right now too. Property taxes keep going up to the limit to pay for it all too. Mandel also worked hard to shut down the Municipal Airport here so big buildings could go up up up. There's never really been a public accounting of the true cost of the arena here, so we don't know if it's been a good deal or not. Edmonton City Centre is a ghost mall, downtown is a zombie apocalypse, the area around the arena is a set for Breaking Bad, but, hey, if you were watching the playoffs you saw what a great deal a condo in Ice District is for $850k including parking and a couple of Oilers' tickets thrown in. I hope downtown and area revitalizes once the developments start filling up, but for now it's depressing.

To dig deeper into the Arizona situation....

Local labor unions spent 2 million in marketing to reject the Tempe deal out of not getting any work commitments from the Coyotes/NHL regarding this project.

The Coyotes spent around 250K in marketing to solicit a "yes"...while arriving late to the party whereas their counterparts got a head start months in advance.

I can't really blame locals (citizens, businesses, public workers) if they're tired of getting bait & switched by this crappy organization along with the fallout of the Glendale situation as well.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 May 2023 09:21]

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823732 is a reply to message #823718 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:32

A couple thoughts:

1) why would they vote down an arena with no public funds? That seemed to me a pretty good deal for the city. I don't know why it even had to be referendumed - just seems like something designed for any large project to be NIMBYed out of existence.

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

I do think the University rink is a bit of a joke though...at least they don't have the curtained off dressing rooms any more.

Gregor had a guy from the Athletic in Arizona who follows the Yotes and the whole rink story on yesterday. Sounds like the Yotes owner screwed up again. Based on what he said, sounds like there was a group who was big time against it and spent a lot of money to spread misinformation to scare people. This group supposedly spent 2 mill on their smear campaign while the Yotes spent 200 grand.

This group said things like this new rink would cause flights to be redirected over neighborhoods which is a complete lie because the FAA controls that, not the owner of a rink. Lots of stuff that was very exaggerated and out right lies by what the guy said but people believed it.

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823733 is a reply to message #823729 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 11:05

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

stemhovlichski wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 21:46

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:32

A couple thoughts:

1) why would they vote down an arena with no public funds? That seemed to me a pretty good deal for the city. I don't know why it even had to be referendumed - just seems like something designed for any large project to be NIMBYed out of existence.

2) I don't give a flying...friend...about another Canadian team. It's just one more group for me to hate. I don't care if it stays in Arizona, or if some other city in the US gets it. I'll never understand why so many Canadian fans are so up in arms about warmer places getting hockey teams, or about what the attendance is for teams that they otherwise don't care about. It doesn't really bother me at all.

I do think the University rink is a bit of a joke though...at least they don't have the curtained off dressing rooms any more.

Tempe development info: https://kjzz.org/content/1844391/what-tempe-voters-need-know -about-props-301-302-303-coyotes-arena-and-entertainment

Looks like Tempe voted on facts not fantasy. They have Proposition votes in the States because the public believes in democracy and holds their politicians accountable to the point they can recall their elected officials if they feel the need. You want the job, you do what the public expects of you right or wrong. Spending public money on private deals makes much less sense in AZ where income tax is low and any losses would have to made up with property and/or sales tax increases which are political suicide with the retirement population.

Edmonton has had mayors and councils who made downtown Edmonton easy for big business and developers to have their way. The Oilers have a sweetheart deal of an arena. Katz Group doesn't have to compete with Northlands anymore because the City nuked that organization. Qualico is developing the Station Lands as fast as possible right now too. Property taxes keep going up to the limit to pay for it all too. Mandel also worked hard to shut down the Municipal Airport here so big buildings could go up up up. There's never really been a public accounting of the true cost of the arena here, so we don't know if it's been a good deal or not. Edmonton City Centre is a ghost mall, downtown is a zombie apocalypse, the area around the arena is a set for Breaking Bad, but, hey, if you were watching the playoffs you saw what a great deal a condo in Ice District is for $850k including parking and a couple of Oilers' tickets thrown in. I hope downtown and area revitalizes once the developments start filling up, but for now it's depressing.

Reading through that argument against, it sounds like it was framed that this development will make a rich guy richer because he gets to develop a new community, and that some of the condos might go to rich guys because they might sell for a million dollars each.

Considering the average home in Edmonton is almost half a million bucks, that doesn't sound too outlandish at all actually for penthouse suites, but I guess that's a matter of perspective.

As expected, there's a bunch of NIMBY mumbo jumbo in there - like the bookstore owner who doesn't want events near her store because it causes congestion and parking issues.

The fact is, anytime anything gets developed, a big developer stands to make money. If they didn't, it wouldn't happen.

As for some of your other stuff - I mean, Northlands wasn't a serious competitor to Katz Group. It was an influence peddler that impacted Alberta politics for decades. I don't think anyone should mourn their demise. I'm no Katz Group fan, and I think there was some problematic things around the arena development. I think there's been lots of problematic development projects in almost every city over the years, but I think it still is a positive development. And I do think that leaving the Oilers in the old Coliseum wasn't a real option. At some point it had to go. There's a legitimate debate about whether the deal the city got was the best possible, but I'm glad it didn't go to the voters because I think the chances of ANY large project getting vetoed then is high for so many reasons - and ultimately if you never develop anything, then no one is drawn to your city and you lose services, entertainment options, jobs and talent.

For what it's worth, recall voting is impractical, costly and mostly abused. While it makes some sense to have methods of impeachment for elected officials (Mayor Bill Hawreluk was impeached multiple times in Edmonton's history!) simply allowing for a petition to create run-off elections again and again isn't an effective use of taxpayer dollars. It's not like people are elected for life. If you don't like how someone has performed as your elected official, you'll have another shot at replacing them in under 5 years. I've been pretty clear that there's a lot of elected officials that I'm not a fan of - however they got elected, and short of criminal or corrupt activity, I don't believe that they need to be removed from office - or to just undergo countless mini-elections because 10,000 people signed a stupid petition.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823734 is a reply to message #823732 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823735 is a reply to message #823734 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823737 is a reply to message #823735 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 12:28

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

I'd rather see a collapse in revenue for the NHL. The stupid amounts of money they've been sucking out of the fans over the last ~10 years has really had a negative impact on my fandom.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823738 is a reply to message #823737 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 12:40

RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 12:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

I'd rather see a collapse in revenue for the NHL. The stupid amounts of money they've been sucking out of the fans over the last ~10 years has really had a negative impact on my fandom.

Don't go or watch. Simple solution.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823739 is a reply to message #823738 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 13:02

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 12:40

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 12:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

I'd rather see a collapse in revenue for the NHL. The stupid amounts of money they've been sucking out of the fans over the last ~10 years has really had a negative impact on my fandom.

Don't go or watch. Simple solution.

Exactly what I did. I gave up my season tickets, canceled cable, and don’t buy merchandise.

I still like hockey though so I’ll be tuning into the conference final games through a definitely not sketchy online source.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823740 is a reply to message #823739 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 13:11

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 13:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 12:40

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 12:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

I'd rather see a collapse in revenue for the NHL. The stupid amounts of money they've been sucking out of the fans over the last ~10 years has really had a negative impact on my fandom.

Don't go or watch. Simple solution.

Exactly what I did. I gave up my season tickets, canceled cable, and don’t buy merchandise.

I still like hockey though so I’ll be tuning into the conference final games through a definitely not sketchy online source.

Good for you. All of professional sports has gone in that path, it's not an NHL thing. You can say that about any entertainment. It costs a hell of a lot to go see a movie compared to 10 yrs ago. But you do what you got to do.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 May 2023 13:13]

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823743 is a reply to message #823740 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 14:16

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
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Location: AB Highway 100

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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 13:11

Good for you. All of professional sports has gone in that path, it's not an NHL thing. You can say that about any entertainment. It costs a hell of a lot to go see a movie compared to 10 yrs ago. But you do what you got to do.

The price has certainly gone up for all major entertainment over the last couple of decades, but I'm not sure the return has kept pace. Especially when you consider everything becoming a pain in the butt to attend with expensive concessions, clear bag policies, parking restriction, etc. Personally, it's getting harder to justify a greater expense for a less return. I think something of an entertainment bubble is forming, especially with long term inflationary pressure, that may seem some big collapses down the road.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823744 is a reply to message #823735 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 14:25

Adam
Messages: 7177
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 11:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 10:29

I do think it's time for the Yotes to go. I know they team has made mistakes, moving locations was 1 but it's been 27 yrs and they still don't have a big enough fan base to make it remotely operable. No one can fault the NHL for not giving it a serious try.

In big part because I think it's funny how weird so many Canadians get about a team they don't care about, I really hope that they find a way to stay in Arizona - just to irritate people for another couple decades.

I am looking for the NHL to have franchises who help the league continue to grow in revenue so the cap goes up. Higher cap means you can keep more of your good players. I am not looking for teams to be laughing stocks of the league, drag the league down all so some people can laugh at it.

Counter-point - a well-run club with deep pockets and lots of financial success means that you have one more team that is a true competitor for players from a free agency and trade perspective.

Having a team that's a perpetual tire fire means A) players aren't excited to go there and B) the team will struggle to pay big salaries for top stars. They create a nice little feeder system where they can get and develop some players, but ultimately can't hold on to them when they reach free agency, giving us more options.

I mean, who wants more competent, competitive teams? It's bad enough that in our division we have two expansion teams who have decided to just try to be good from early on, rather than the old model of sucking for a decade or two before they win their first playoff series. Do we really need to see the Coyotes get capably managed too? Sounds terrible to me.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823748 is a reply to message #823726 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 21:28

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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Off topic forum: do you actually know how this all works... or are you just spouting garbage. (Hint: i know the actual answer)

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823749 is a reply to message #823748 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 21:32

Kr55
Messages: 10781
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 21:28

Off topic forum: do you actually know how this all works... or are you just spouting garbage. (Hint: i know the actual answer)

Yes, I am well versed in how Quebec games the equalization formula.

Well played by them to get an excess load of cash to toss at an arena. Still feel like we should all get our money's worth with a new Canadian team to hate on.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 May 2023 21:39]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823752 is a reply to message #823749 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 00:16

CrusaderPi
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Location: AB Highway 100

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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 21:32

Yes, I am well versed in how Quebec games the equalization formula.

As we all should have said in 1995, “go Quebec, go.”

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823765 is a reply to message #823743 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 05:32

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 17:16

I think something of an entertainment bubble is forming

100%. If I take myself for example - I’m not wealthy by any stretch, but I’ve always had a significant portion of my disposable income dedicated to entertainment and travel experiences. Even when I had a lot less than I do now, I would rarely ever balk at the price. But now? More and more I find myself saying “holy crap - no thanks”.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823790 is a reply to message #823728 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 13:27

Rowan Oil Fielding
Messages: 340
Registered: July 2018

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Salt Lake City is a popular destination, if it does happen.

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Re: Coyotes lose referendum Vote on New Arena [message #823792 is a reply to message #823790 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 13:41

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Oil Lantern wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:27

Salt Lake City is a popular destination, if it does happen.

SLC makes more sense for a baseball team. I have no idea why the NHL would want to chase the same dollars in a NBA only city. If you need to stay in America, need to leave Arizona, and need to stay out west, I consider Kansas City.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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