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Re: Holland confirmed gone [message #837181 is a reply to message #837169 ]	Fri, 28 June 2024 16:56

Adam
Messages: 7757
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

HamBlaster wrote on Thu, 27 June 2024 21:39

I'm going to come to RDOF's defense here. I think his assessment of people being clueless and idiots is harsh (and probably could use an apology), but I agree with his feelings on Holland. The guy is one of the iconic GMs of this era, and not for the wrong reasons. He's done well over his career.

Keith was a "monumentally stupid move"? Why? You picked up a former Norris trophy winner for an AHL D-man and a magic bean, and he played well enough for the Oilers for a season while also providing Norris-level guidance to the D core and elevating the overall understanding of the team of what it takes to compete for the Cup. That trade was at worst a wash and at best a great mentorship opportunity for the rest of the squad. Keith always had that competitive edge and the Oilers grew during his time here, and he continues to share his experience as a player development consultant for the team now. I see this trade as a win for the Oil.

The Nurse contract is a bad contract when viewed with the benefit of hindsight, without a doubt, but Holland was handcuffed more than a little. A. Nurse is (and might still be) one of Connor's boys, and I'm sure he was advocating for him to be signed long-term. The Oilers may not be able to get rid of that contract in part due to CMac's relationship. B. Chicago signing Seth Jones to his ludicrous contract forced the Oilers hand, due to the comparable. C. The Oilers were in limbo land due to the Klefbom injury and Larsson having left as a FA for Seattle. He NEEDED Nurse, more than Nurse needed him at the time. D. Who honestly would have expected Nurse to regress during this contract? He was still young, appeared to be improving still and seemed locked in on the top pairing at the time. Who honestly would have foreseen Bouchard turning into an Al MacInnis clone and an elite 1A? It was only after Ekholm replaced Nurse in that pairing that Bouchard turned a massive corner. And who takes responsibility for the Ekholm trade (who no one saw coming, and I rate the impact of nearly the same as the Pronger trade)? Ken does. That Ekholm trade is incredible, in hindsight. The guy plays great D, is oddly clutch to score when the Oil need it, and made Bouchard a monster. I'm sure Holland would have much rather had Nurse at 5 or 6M, but Jones' contract changed the benchmark value dramatically. Could he have signed him before Jones signed? Maybe, but it's possible that the rumblings of the potential numbers made Darnell sit on the fence for a bit to see how it all shook out. This one was a loss for the Oil, but one that isn't entirely Holland's fault. Keith and Ekholm have helped Bouch turn into the player he is now, so that's two more wins (Ek and Bouch). By my count, we're at two big wins (Ek and Bouch), one less significant win (Keith) versus one handcuffed loss (Nurse).

Let's continue.

Campbell was a very bad signing, however Holland's FA options were limited that offseason. Jack was coming off of a very poor showing in the playoffs with the Leafs and seemed to be at risk of being shaky the following season. They signed him based on the regular season and his draft pedigree, and it didn't work out at all. They should have looked for a trade, but that would have meant trading away talent from a somewhat bare cupboard. He went the FA route and it didn't work out. That's a top-tier loss for the Oilers.

Hyman... an all time win, not just for the Oilers but for the whole history of the NHL. Easily one of the best FA signings in the last twenty years. No more needs to be said about that. Incredible value on that contract and hopefully a long-term stud on the wing for McDavid / Drai. Guy is unreal. I'm scoring that as another big win. Scoring is at three big wins and one smaller win against a clear loss and a handcuffed loss.

Kane was absolutely worth taking a flyer on, and it worked out, especially that first year. He was Hyman before Hyman, and the demotion to the second and then third lines, coupled with injuries, took the wind out of his sails. Still an impact player when healthy though and it'll be interesting to see what he brings next season. I count that as a win. Could Holland have taken him out of the lineup and tried to use the cap room to bring in someone else? Sure... but if Kane somehow managed to get healthy, he would have been an absolute force. Still had a decent playoffs, while noticeably injured. I'll count the lack of LTIR use in this playoffs as a loss, so Kane is a wash.

Broberg... looks like a win, and could be a big win eventually. It takes some defensemen a longer time to develop and Broberg seems to have needed some seasoning. My god did it do wonders for the guy's game though. He looks like a lock for a top 4 role next season, and there's more in his game that will come. He could be a great fit beside Bouch in the coming years if they can't resign Ekholm. Win.

Hollywood is a win. He'll be a role player for the foreseeable future and could develop into a regular scoring threat. Awesome energy player though and defensively responsible. Another win.

I'll count the signings of Janmark and Brown as neutrals, as both really didn't contribute much in the regular season, but were horses in the playoffs. Maybe slight wins because of that penalty kill and the incredibly timely goals.

Nuge should always be an Oiler. Pretty good value contract as well. Win.

These are the meaningful deals and moves that he made while with the Oil.

The way I count it, I see three big wins, five smaller wins and two neutrals that lean towards wins against one very clear loss, one handcuffed and significant loss and one smaller loss.

To me, that's a pretty solid record when it comes to significant changes made to this team. I respect what Ken did for this squad and thank him for his efforts.

Rocksteady wrote on Fri, 28 June 2024 08:59

I think Holland has done a decent job actually. He got rid of Lucic which was basically unmovable with the real deal, Hyman fell into his latop and locked up Nuge long term. Ekholm was an excellent get. Show me another GM who has made mistake free moves? Do you really want a guy to I don't know to trade your 16 and 33 overall picks again for a troubled defender??? Sorry folks, Holland was good for the franchise.

I'd like to counter these points here a little.

I agree that there's two clear wins for Ken Holland - Zach Hyman and Matthias Ekholm.

He has a few things like the Nuge signing that aren't bad, but they're not anything amazing either. It's just re-upping a guy who was here a long time to another deal. Yes, we could have lost him, but signing an extension that isn't a complete albatross is nothing to commend a general manager for - to me, that's just base level expectations.

Other than Ekholm though the trades are so bad. He generally was unable to meaningfully help the Oilers with the deals, almost all of which come right at the trade deadline, and in most cases it can be shown he overpaid relative to the market. I definitely hold against him the fact that he's on record saying it would be a bad thing to win trades and I believe his track record shows that he really believes that. He's over-generous over and over again - making me wonder if he isn't right along with Bobby Nicholson in believing that someday the other teams are just going to help him out. That day just never came.

His overpayments add-up too, as those are assets that we don't have to address other issues. You look at the throw in of Kesselring to Arizona last year and it sure looks like a total unforced error.

Holland has tried to brag up the Lucic/Neal trade as we were able to buy out James Neal two seasons after that trade, but A) no one here should be under the illusion that that was Holland's game plan, and B) that's still a buyout that ate up cap space for 4 years. Neal joins Connor Brown and Corey Perry as guys eating up the next GMs cap space for next season.

The contract for Nuge is pretty well the exception on deals that aren't too long or for too much. I kind of feel like Holland doesn't think he should try to win at players' contracts either, because he's sure generous. You go down the list of people he signed and he's regularly gave extra years beyond their usefulness, or just flat out too much. Kassian and Nurse are some of the biggest offenders, but Ceci getting 4 years at $3.25MM given what his couple seasons ahead of that had been was a stretch - you have to think we could have had half that time and more flexibility. Given what we had in house, Kulak was always a stretch to play above the third pairing, but we gave him $2.75 for four years too. Those contracts aren't albatrosses, but they hurt your flexibility and when those guys move to the bottom of your depth chart, that's a lot to spend on them. Kane got a four year deal too...and I just pray someone is still willing to take that one on now to save us from it.

Meanwhile, he didn't go long on younger more talented defencemen - despite the template that the Oscar Klefbom contract set for the team. One of the reasons Nurse is so expensive now is that the team bridged him on the prior deal. And then last summer they duplicated that mistake with Evan Bouchard...something that will cost the team MILLIONS in the future.

Other than Hyman, there just haven't been really much for free agent signings that have moved the needle. Most of the summer free agents have been journeymen and depth players, many of whom have some familiarity to Holland through the Detroit system.

As with Detroit, Holland has a tendency to prefer older players to bringing up good younger players in depth roles and he's made us the oldest team in the league. That showed at times though in the playoffs as some of those guys struggle to keep up. Where the coaching staff finally used younger legs, the team was the better for it.

The draft record is spotty for sure. I believe that both Holloway and Broberg are NHL players and will be contributors for the Oilers. But if you look at the players that we passed up, it's going to be hard for them to ever really cover that bet. Bourgault has some promise too but compare him to Wyatt Johnson or the Minny goalie prospect and it leaves some questions there. We've seen none of his depth picks surface yet with any real solid promise.

The goaltending has been the biggest constant fail. He's relied on an ancient, an inconsistent, and an unknown as his three real starters. Plus of course Jack Campbell, who has been a complete and total trainwreck.

His understanding of the cap seems poor at best. His willingness to be creative in finding ways to make the team better is probably at best a D-. His ability to inspire and motivate is exceptionally low - this is a GM who in Year 2 was telling the team that he didn't think they were ready to compete - only to see lowly Montreal come out of our division and go to the Cup Final.

And this is the guy who got paid more than anyone else to do that job!??!

Oh, and his stories are dated, long-winded and boring too.

In short, I'm not a fan, and think his time in Edmonton has just squandered several years of Prime McDavid.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Holland confirmed gone	By: Adam on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:04
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:22
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Adam on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:04
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:24
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:30
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Mike on Thu, 27 June 2024 11:15
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:31
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Adam on Thu, 27 June 2024 14:49
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:04
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Mike on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:30
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 27 June 2024 15:48
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 27 June 2024 18:39
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: PlusOne on Thu, 27 June 2024 18:48
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Thu, 27 June 2024 22:31
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: HamBlaster on Thu, 27 June 2024 21:39
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Thu, 27 June 2024 22:40
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Thu, 27 June 2024 23:02
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Rocksteady on Fri, 28 June 2024 08:59
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Fri, 28 June 2024 09:23
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Adam on Fri, 28 June 2024 16:56
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: nullterm on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:39
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Thu, 27 June 2024 10:50
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Mike on Thu, 27 June 2024 11:11
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: CrusaderPi on Thu, 27 June 2024 12:13
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:12
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Dragon_Matt on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:35
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:36
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Thu, 27 June 2024 13:58
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Suomalainen on Thu, 27 June 2024 19:56
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: RDOilerfan on Thu, 27 June 2024 20:11
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: MJ on Fri, 28 June 2024 00:49
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: smyth260 on Fri, 28 June 2024 10:55
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: inverno76 on Fri, 28 June 2024 13:32
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Adam on Fri, 28 June 2024 14:51
Re: Holland confirmed gone	By: Kr55 on Fri, 28 June 2024 14:56

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