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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837601 is a reply to message #837593 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 12:53

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

oilfan94 wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 09:43

I don't think San Jose could take both, but if the Oilers match both offer sheets and only drop Broberg to San Jose then that isn't the end of the world.

According to this website the question was asked if you went to the bottom of the order once you selected a player off waivers.. the guys at ProHockey Rumors said no.. you keep the same order for all subsequent waiver players until teh order changes due to standings.. so in San Joses case they will be selecting first until the Nov. 1 regulars season standings are calculated..
https://www.prohockeyrumors.com/2024/08/salary-cap-transacti ons-faqs-waivers-retention-buyouts-more.html

Apparently there is nothing in the CBA about changing the waiver priority once you selected.. the waiver priority order remains until the standings change..

Quote:

MixtureBill: For waiver order, is it always based on reverse standings order, or are teams moved to the “end of the line” after making a claim? Would the last place team have priority on all waiver claims until the order is changed at the given date during the season, or once making a claim do they no longer have top priority?

Nope. If a team remains in 32nd place for eternity, they have first dibs on players on waivers for eternity.

That given date you mention is Nov. 1, by the way. So, for any players who get placed on waivers between now and November, the Sharks will still have priority, then the Blackhawks, then the Ducks, and so on.

Waiver priority was also discussed here.. same conclusion.. priority doesn't change once a team claims..

https://canucksarmy.com/news/canucks-army-gdt-8-canucks-vs-o ilers

This is teh only section talking about waiver priority.. nothing regarding changing it once making a claim..

https://thenationnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/images/af/20/article_af202143-dacf-4170-9d20-173ad9962fa0.png

[Updated on: Fri, 16 August 2024 13:02]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837602 is a reply to message #837601 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 13:08

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

I think these "screw you" things ignore the fact that if Grier had wanted to, he could have offe sheeted those players at those amounts and paid only a 2nd and 3rd round pick if the Oilers didn't match. I don't think there's a lot of incentive for them to pay more than what St. Louis stands to give up, in order to screw over the Blues and get the player at the same dollar figure.

He'd also hold all the cards in the negotiation, because there would be literally no other team in his position. If he says no, then you can't do it with the next lowest team, for fear of San Jose grabbing that player for nothing.

Love the creativity of Oilers fans, but I think it's a binary decision regarding both players here. Either you sign him and keep him, or you let him go and take the draft pick.

FWIW, I've come to think that the Oilers will (and probably should) match only Holloway. He'd be getting similar dollars to what Ryan McLeod made last year, so it's not crazy money. Even on eventual free agency, that's not a ridiculous qualifying offer that you need to give. With Broberg, he is ideally a LD, and our area of greatest need is a RD, so we can't commit that much money to him. Wish him all the best in St. Louis, and then keep your eyes open for another right defenceman to help fill the void.

Personally, I don't like the UFA options at the moment as most are PP quarterbacks and we already have one of those. They don't have a lot of other huge strengths to their game.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837603 is a reply to message #837602 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 13:17

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 12:08

I think these "screw you" things ignore the fact that if Grier had wanted to, he could have offe sheeted those players at those amounts and paid only a 2nd and 3rd round pick if the Oilers didn't match. I don't think there's a lot of incentive for them to pay more than what St. Louis stands to give up, in order to screw over the Blues and get the player at the same dollar figure.

He'd also hold all the cards in the negotiation, because there would be literally no other team in his position. If he says no, then you can't do it with the next lowest team, for fear of San Jose grabbing that player for nothing.

Love the creativity of Oilers fans, but I think it's a binary decision regarding both players here. Either you sign him and keep him, or you let him go and take the draft pick.

FWIW, I've come to think that the Oilers will (and probably should) match only Holloway. He'd be getting similar dollars to what Ryan McLeod made last year, so it's not crazy money. Even on eventual free agency, that's not a ridiculous qualifying offer that you need to give. With Broberg, he is ideally a LD, and our area of greatest need is a RD, so we can't commit that much money to him. Wish him all the best in St. Louis, and then keep your eyes open for another right defenceman to help fill the void.

Personally, I don't like the UFA options at the moment as most are PP quarterbacks and we already have one of those. They don't have a lot of other huge strengths to their game.

Who cares

I'd do it even it SJ only offered a 2nd and 3rd just as a big F off to Armstrong, Broberg/Holloway and their agents.. it would end predatory offer sheets.. if as a player you accept an offer.. you can get waived to the worst team in the league.. accepting an offer sheet is changed from a no risk option.. to an option with career consequences.

But SJ would offer more.. they have zero cap issues and both players are young and bonifide NHL'ers.. SJ has some good prospects and 2 1st rounders next year.. getting Broberg and Holloway.. and even just Broberg would advance SJ's competitive timeline substantially .. their NHL roster is rifle butt ugly

[Updated on: Fri, 16 August 2024 14:32]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837604 is a reply to message #837603 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 14:31

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 13:17

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 12:08

I think these "screw you" things ignore the fact that if Grier had wanted to, he could have offe sheeted those players at those amounts and paid only a 2nd and 3rd round pick if the Oilers didn't match. I don't think there's a lot of incentive for them to pay more than what St. Louis stands to give up, in order to screw over the Blues and get the player at the same dollar figure.

He'd also hold all the cards in the negotiation, because there would be literally no other team in his position. If he says no, then you can't do it with the next lowest team, for fear of San Jose grabbing that player for nothing.

Love the creativity of Oilers fans, but I think it's a binary decision regarding both players here. Either you sign him and keep him, or you let him go and take the draft pick.

FWIW, I've come to think that the Oilers will (and probably should) match only Holloway. He'd be getting similar dollars to what Ryan McLeod made last year, so it's not crazy money. Even on eventual free agency, that's not a ridiculous qualifying offer that you need to give. With Broberg, he is ideally a LD, and our area of greatest need is a RD, so we can't commit that much money to him. Wish him all the best in St. Louis, and then keep your eyes open for another right defenceman to help fill the void.

Personally, I don't like the UFA options at the moment as most are PP quarterbacks and we already have one of those. They don't have a lot of other huge strengths to their game.

Who cares

I'd do it even it SJ only offered a 2nd and 3rd just as a big F off to Armstrong, Broberg/Holloway and their agents.. it would end predatory offer sheets.. if as a player you accept an offer.. you can get waived to the worst team in the league.. accepting an offer sheet becomes a no risk option.. to an option with career consequences.

But SJ would offer more.. they have zero cap issues and both players are young and bonifide NHL'ers.. SJ has some good prospects and 2 1st rounders next year.. getting Broberg and Holloway.. and even just Broberg would advance SJ's competitive timeline substantially .. their NHL roster is rifle butt ugly

Would they? If I'm the GM of San Jose, and you come to me now, I just say maybe. We'll see. I'm not trading you something now hoping that you are willing to do something later since you won't be able to waive them until the start of training camp. And then at the point where you're thinking about waiving them I have all the power in the world. They're going to mess with your cap if you don't get rid of them (or others). No one else can give you any guarantee because I'm the only GM who has an unblocked path to the players if they get waived. I know that you're only doing this to send a message and punish a team, and so I'm saying - I know you had a 2nd from St Louis, but I'll give you a 3rd and the satisfaction of knowing you screwed over St. Louis.

I don't think there's any reason for Grier to play super nice with the Oilers. I mean, he's one of those ex-player GMs, so there's a good chance he does something dumb, but hard to see why he wouldn't use the leverage we'd be giving him to his advantage.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837606 is a reply to message #837604 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 14:45

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 13:31

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 13:17

Adam wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 12:08

I think these "screw you" things ignore the fact that if Grier had wanted to, he could have offe sheeted those players at those amounts and paid only a 2nd and 3rd round pick if the Oilers didn't match. I don't think there's a lot of incentive for them to pay more than what St. Louis stands to give up, in order to screw over the Blues and get the player at the same dollar figure.

He'd also hold all the cards in the negotiation, because there would be literally no other team in his position. If he says no, then you can't do it with the next lowest team, for fear of San Jose grabbing that player for nothing.

Love the creativity of Oilers fans, but I think it's a binary decision regarding both players here. Either you sign him and keep him, or you let him go and take the draft pick.

FWIW, I've come to think that the Oilers will (and probably should) match only Holloway. He'd be getting similar dollars to what Ryan McLeod made last year, so it's not crazy money. Even on eventual free agency, that's not a ridiculous qualifying offer that you need to give. With Broberg, he is ideally a LD, and our area of greatest need is a RD, so we can't commit that much money to him. Wish him all the best in St. Louis, and then keep your eyes open for another right defenceman to help fill the void.

Personally, I don't like the UFA options at the moment as most are PP quarterbacks and we already have one of those. They don't have a lot of other huge strengths to their game.

Who cares

I'd do it even it SJ only offered a 2nd and 3rd just as a big F off to Armstrong, Broberg/Holloway and their agents.. it would end predatory offer sheets.. if as a player you accept an offer.. you can get waived to the worst team in the league.. accepting an offer sheet becomes a no risk option.. to an option with career consequences.

But SJ would offer more.. they have zero cap issues and both players are young and bonifide NHL'ers.. SJ has some good prospects and 2 1st rounders next year.. getting Broberg and Holloway.. and even just Broberg would advance SJ's competitive timeline substantially .. their NHL roster is rifle butt ugly

Would they? If I'm the GM of San Jose, and you come to me now, I just say maybe. We'll see. I'm not trading you something now hoping that you are willing to do something later since you won't be able to waive them until the start of training camp. And then at the point where you're thinking about waiving them I have all the power in the world. They're going to mess with your cap if you don't get rid of them (or others). No one else can give you any guarantee because I'm the only GM who has an unblocked path to the players if they get waived. I know that you're only doing this to send a message and punish a team, and so I'm saying - I know you had a 2nd from St Louis, but I'll give you a 3rd and the satisfaction of knowing you screwed over St. Louis.

I don't think there's any reason for Grier to play super nice with the Oilers. I mean, he's one of those ex-player GMs, so there's a good chance he does something dumb, but hard to see why he wouldn't use the leverage we'd be giving him to his advantage.

SJ has no power unless there is an agreement, Greer would do it, it would be in his team's best interests .. I don't think it would require being super nice to consider it.. it would be like any other trade proposal.. value for value.. Oilers have options other than a waiver.. worst case Oilers could match both and make other arrangements that don't include a SJ waiver agreement.. they'd have to move cap.. or LTIR.. I'd tell SJ that and say .. but.. we could let you have them in exchange for "this"

The value-for-value exchange would be indirect .. so some trust involved.. but there are a lot of trade transactions that require GM's taking the other's word for something before the transaction is completed.. such as all those multi-team trades..

Even a 2nd and 3rd alone from SJ is better than a 2nd and 3rd from St. Louis..

I'd do the trade first though, the trust would be on SJ's side..

If the NHL tried to block the subsequent waiver.. both SJ and Oilers could sue the NHL.. as it is absolutely permitted by the CBA.

[Updated on: Fri, 16 August 2024 15:01]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837609 is a reply to message #837604 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 16:53

welcometotheOC
Messages: 647
Registered: April 2010
Location: Also, sadly, Cowtown

No Cups

The one way this is better for SJ is that they don’t have to use their own draft picks from the current year. They could win this using better picks than St Louis but not as good as their own… Oilers win (relative to SL picks) in this scenario.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837599 is a reply to message #837592 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 12:27

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Jakey wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 09:32

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 15 August 2024 19:44

One of the posters (defmn) on Lowetide had a plausible option for this predicament..

1. Talk to San Jose.. they have 1st right of refusal on the waivers..

2. Ask Greer if he wants Broberg oand Holloway at the St. Louis offer sheet pricing.. and if SJ would want them in return for more than a 2nd and 3rd for both..

3. If yes, you match the offer sheets.. now have control of players.. and waive their asses the start of season..

4. SJ picks them up

5. SJ and Oilers then make a trade.. a SJ 1st rounder for an Oiler "B" prospect or player.. or a high SJ prospect for a low round Oiler pick.. basically higher SJ value .. for lower Oiler value.. something along this line..

.. or make the "trade" first.. then the waiver later.. i.e. the waiver is "future considerations"

A big FU to Armstrong and St. Louis, as well as Holloway/Broberg and their respective agents..

You can't trade a player after matching.. but nothing says you can't waive him..

I was thinking of this type of scenario as well. I emailed Puck Pedia to look into waivers rules to see if Sharks make the first claim then do they drop in the waiver claim positioning after (not sure on that) as well as if the Oilers match the 2 offer sheets, do waiver rules allow them be put on waivers or have to wait for a year(like trade rule)......that I don't know. If they can go on waivers then this is a scenario I would definately push hard at with SJ to see what their package might be for this to work out better for the Oilers. Grier could be a real linchpin in this whole thing if the waivers idea can be done after offer sheets?

Gonna be interesting to see what plays out for sure!

On Lowetide's site one of the posters (defmn) posted this from the CBA regarding matching an offer sheet.. CBA has nothing about waivers.. only trades.. looks like it could be done..

The NHL will cry about it.. not the "spirit" of the CBA .. but I'd tell them to FO and if they have a problem address it in the next CBA.. and if they try to block it.. sue them..

Quote:

Below is the section of the CBA – section 10.3 (b) on page 36 that addresses the issue. There is no other section that I have seen that nullifies the team’s right to put players on waivers.

(b) If the Prior Club gives the Restricted Free Agent and his Certified Agent, if any, notice, in accordance with Exhibit 3 hereto, that it is exercising its Right of First Refusal (a “First Refusal Exercise Notice”), such notice to be substantially in the form of Exhibit 7 attached

hereto, to the Player’s and his Certified Agent’s, if any, e-mail address listed on the Offer Sheet, if any, within the seven (7) day period, such Restricted Free Agent and the Prior Club shall be deemed to have entered into a binding agreement, which they shall promptly formalize in an SPC, containing: (i) all the Principal Terms (subject to subsection (e) below); and (ii) such additional terms as may be agreed upon between the Restricted Free Agent and the Prior Club.

The Prior Club may not Trade that Restricted Free Agent for a period of one year from the date it exercises its Right of First Refusal.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837610 is a reply to message #837599 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 20:36

Jay
Messages: 589
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

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So this whole thing was almost certainly concocted by Holland and Armstrong on the golf course because old man Holland is bitter about being pushed into retirement right? How long until he works for the blues in some advisor capacity?

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837611 is a reply to message #837610 ]	Fri, 16 August 2024 21:40

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Jay wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 19:36

...How long until he works for the blues in some advisor capacity?

That'd be the icing. lol!

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837612 is a reply to message #837592 ]	Sat, 17 August 2024 08:52

Jakey
Messages: 40
Registered: November 2007
Location: Leduc

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Jakey wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 10:32

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 15 August 2024 19:44

One of the posters (defmn) on Lowetide had a plausible option for this predicament..

1. Talk to San Jose.. they have 1st right of refusal on the waivers..

2. Ask Greer if he wants Broberg oand Holloway at the St. Louis offer sheet pricing.. and if SJ would want them in return for more than a 2nd and 3rd for both..

3. If yes, you match the offer sheets.. now have control of players.. and waive their asses the start of season..

4. SJ picks them up

5. SJ and Oilers then make a trade.. a SJ 1st rounder for an Oiler "B" prospect or player.. or a high SJ prospect for a low round Oiler pick.. basically higher SJ value .. for lower Oiler value.. something along this line..

.. or make the "trade" first.. then the waiver later.. i.e. the waiver is "future considerations"

A big FU to Armstrong and St. Louis, as well as Holloway/Broberg and their respective agents..

You can't trade a player after matching.. but nothing says you can't waive him..

I was thinking of this type of scenario as well. I emailed Puck Pedia to look into waivers rules to see if Sharks make the first claim then do they drop in the waiver claim positioning after (not sure on that) as well as if the Oilers match the 2 offer sheets, do waiver rules allow them be put on waivers or have to wait for a year(like trade rule)......that I don't know. If they can go on waivers then this is a scenario I would definately push hard at with SJ to see what their package might be for this to work out better for the Oilers. Grier could be a real linchpin in this whole thing if the waivers idea can be done after offer sheets?

Gonna be interesting to see what plays out for sure!

I got this response from Hart Levine at Puck Pedia on the Oilers Matching the 2 offer sheets and putting them on waivers after....see below

Hi Scott, thanks for the question, very creative!

SJ does start the year with waiver priority, and the Oilers are not prohibited from waiving the players if they match, so in theory that could happen. However, if matching, waiving, being claimed by SJ and some compensation received for that was preplanned, it's possible the league would reject it due to general circumvention rules.

Thanks for the support!

Hart
PuckPedia
www.puckpedia.com

So in theory you could do this, but he suggests the League will look at it like CBA circumvention. I would be looking hard at this area to see if you could legitmately do this. Would be really great to screw over St. Louis somehow in all of this.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837613 is a reply to message #837612 ]	Sat, 17 August 2024 12:26

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Jakey wrote on Sat, 17 August 2024 07:52

Jakey wrote on Fri, 16 August 2024 10:32

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 15 August 2024 19:44

One of the posters (defmn) on Lowetide had a plausible option for this predicament..

1. Talk to San Jose.. they have 1st right of refusal on the waivers..

2. Ask Greer if he wants Broberg oand Holloway at the St. Louis offer sheet pricing.. and if SJ would want them in return for more than a 2nd and 3rd for both..

3. If yes, you match the offer sheets.. now have control of players.. and waive their asses the start of season..

4. SJ picks them up

5. SJ and Oilers then make a trade.. a SJ 1st rounder for an Oiler "B" prospect or player.. or a high SJ prospect for a low round Oiler pick.. basically higher SJ value .. for lower Oiler value.. something along this line..

.. or make the "trade" first.. then the waiver later.. i.e. the waiver is "future considerations"

A big FU to Armstrong and St. Louis, as well as Holloway/Broberg and their respective agents..

You can't trade a player after matching.. but nothing says you can't waive him..

I was thinking of this type of scenario as well. I emailed Puck Pedia to look into waivers rules to see if Sharks make the first claim then do they drop in the waiver claim positioning after (not sure on that) as well as if the Oilers match the 2 offer sheets, do waiver rules allow them be put on waivers or have to wait for a year(like trade rule)......that I don't know. If they can go on waivers then this is a scenario I would definately push hard at with SJ to see what their package might be for this to work out better for the Oilers. Grier could be a real linchpin in this whole thing if the waivers idea can be done after offer sheets?

Gonna be interesting to see what plays out for sure!

I got this response from Hart Levine at Puck Pedia on the Oilers Matching the 2 offer sheets and putting them on waivers after....see below

Hi Scott, thanks for the question, very creative!

SJ does start the year with waiver priority, and the Oilers are not prohibited from waiving the players if they match, so in theory that could happen. However, if matching, waiving, being claimed by SJ and some compensation received for that was preplanned, it's possible the league would reject it due to general circumvention rules.

Thanks for the support!

Hart
PuckPedia
www.puckpedia.com

So in theory you could do this, but he suggests the League will look at it like CBA circumvention. I would be looking hard at this area to see if you could legitmately do this. Would be really great to screw over St. Louis somehow in all of this.

Good Work!

I looked at the circumvention rules.. most of it seems pretty nebulous, it appears to focus mostly on a team getting around the cap.. giving the player something of value that is not listed in the contract.. in the case we've been discussing.. once Oilers match.. they legally own the player's rights and there is a binding contract.. and based on the CBA .. they can waive them anytime they want.. you'd really have to contort the circumvention rules interpretations to block the transactions.. the attempt at circumvention with the LTIR/playoff scams the last few years seems more egregious and all the NHL says is "well .. the CBA doesn't say you can't do it.. so LTIR away.. and we'll see your $9M player on game one of the playoffs"

[Updated on: Sat, 17 August 2024 12:40]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837615 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Sat, 17 August 2024 13:56

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Brian Lawton was on Stauffer yesterday.. talked about the offer sheets.. and gave his honest opinions.. great insight.. worth a listen
https://globalnews.ca/edmonton/program/oilers-now-with-bob-s tauffer
Staples reviewed his discussion with Stauffer here;
https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /i-would-never-let-him-go-former-nhl-gm-says-edmonton-oilers -should-keep-philip-broberg

He'd absolutely keep Broberg .. rightly says young defensemen that can play top 4 are very rare in the NHL, and almost impossible to acquire.. said as a GM he always valued defencemen highly (i.e. as TB GM he vetoed his scouts and picked Hedman over Duschene).. he also said matching Broberg will force the Oilers to make decisions they've wobbled on.. and probably needed to make.. eventually.. overall he thinks the Oilers are likely to be a better team after its all been played out.. I assume Ceci and/or Kulak?

He also mentioned he expects P. Coffey's opinion of Broberg will be considered in the decision.

However.. in the worse, worse case .. if it all turns to crap.. and he doesn't work out next season.. and his play in the past playoffs was a mirage .. you can always buy him out for 1/3 (being a RFA) after one year..

He was less certain about matching Holloway.

Every time I listen to Lawton I wonder why he isn't a GM somewhere.. and most recently .. why he wasn't picked over Bowman.

[Updated on: Sat, 17 August 2024 14:06]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837622 is a reply to message #837615 ]	Sun, 18 August 2024 15:11

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

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Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 17 August 2024 13:56

Brian Lawton was on Stauffer yesterday.. talked about the offer sheets.. and gave his honest opinions.. great insight.. worth a listen
https://globalnews.ca/edmonton/program/oilers-now-with-bob-s tauffer
Staples reviewed his discussion with Stauffer here;
https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /i-would-never-let-him-go-former-nhl-gm-says-edmonton-oilers -should-keep-philip-broberg

He'd absolutely keep Broberg .. rightly says young defensemen that can play top 4 are very rare in the NHL, and almost impossible to acquire.. said as a GM he always valued defencemen highly (i.e. as TB GM he vetoed his scouts and picked Hedman over Duschene).. he also said matching Broberg will force the Oilers to make decisions they've wobbled on.. and probably needed to make.. eventually.. overall he thinks the Oilers are likely to be a better team after its all been played out.. I assume Ceci and/or Kulak?

He also mentioned he expects P. Coffey's opinion of Broberg will be considered in the decision.

However.. in the worse, worse case .. if it all turns to crap.. and he doesn't work out next season.. and his play in the past playoffs was a mirage .. you can always buy him out for 1/3 (being a RFA) after one year..

He was less certain about matching Holloway.

Every time I listen to Lawton I wonder why he isn't a GM somewhere.. and most recently .. why he wasn't picked over Bowman.

It was a great listen. I wish Stauffer touched on how or if it throws a wrench in the "take less to win" plans of the big three. I mean the newsprint wasn't even dry on those stories and two unproven players on the roster are soaking up the discounts on McDavid, Draisatl and Bouchard's deals.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837624 is a reply to message #837622 ]	Sun, 18 August 2024 16:28

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Rutuu wrote on Sun, 18 August 2024 14:11

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 17 August 2024 13:56

Brian Lawton was on Stauffer yesterday.. talked about the offer sheets.. and gave his honest opinions.. great insight.. worth a listen
https://globalnews.ca/edmonton/program/oilers-now-with-bob-s tauffer
Staples reviewed his discussion with Stauffer here;
https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /i-would-never-let-him-go-former-nhl-gm-says-edmonton-oilers -should-keep-philip-broberg

He'd absolutely keep Broberg .. rightly says young defensemen that can play top 4 are very rare in the NHL, and almost impossible to acquire.. said as a GM he always valued defencemen highly (i.e. as TB GM he vetoed his scouts and picked Hedman over Duschene).. he also said matching Broberg will force the Oilers to make decisions they've wobbled on.. and probably needed to make.. eventually.. overall he thinks the Oilers are likely to be a better team after its all been played out.. I assume Ceci and/or Kulak?

He also mentioned he expects P. Coffey's opinion of Broberg will be considered in the decision.

However.. in the worse, worse case .. if it all turns to crap.. and he doesn't work out next season.. and his play in the past playoffs was a mirage .. you can always buy him out for 1/3 (being a RFA) after one year..

He was less certain about matching Holloway.

Every time I listen to Lawton I wonder why he isn't a GM somewhere.. and most recently .. why he wasn't picked over Bowman.

It was a great listen. I wish Stauffer touched on how or if it throws a wrench in the "take less to win" plans of the big three. I mean the newsprint wasn't even dry on those stories and two unproven players on the roster are soaking up the discounts on McDavid, Draisatl and Bouchard's deals.

I think the offer sheets highlight what happens when a team is perpetually up against the cap trying to win the Cup.. your RFA's become risk of offer sheets.. might factor in Draisatl's and McDavid's decisions on contract requests.. they can rightfully demand, and get, huge contracts.. but.. while it maximizes their financial portfolios.. their Cup chances will be lowered as their probability of playing with high skilled/valued players diminishes.. could turn out to be a sobering moment at the right time in negotiations..

Big picture.. I'd also argue McDavid and Draisatl can probably make more in promotional work than any NHL contract discount they might consider.. and even increase that promotional work with successful Cup runs.. especially Draisatl.. being McDavid's franchise co-pilot is a pretty golden professional/financial opportunity

[Updated on: Sun, 18 August 2024 16:34]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837621 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Sun, 18 August 2024 14:06

Kr55
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Registered: May 2002
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Only. Couple more days for the org to mull this over.

Just wanna say, F the Blues again. Whatever goes down, hope our new GM has a plan to give us a solid top 4 D group!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837623 is a reply to message #837621 ]	Sun, 18 August 2024 15:19

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 18 August 2024 14:06

Only. Couple more days for the org to mull this over.

Just wanna say, F the Blues again. Whatever goes down, hope our new GM has a plan to give us a solid top 4 D group!

As a fan of hockey I'd be more mad if the old boys GM club let this obvious of an opportunity expire without being taken. As a fan, I'm a bit embarrassed instead of mad.

It had been talked about on fan boards during the playoffs, so I feel like we were playing checkers and hoped no one noticed we were about to get a King. Our media setting Holland up here with the missed opportunity in December is also interesting, as it means despite having a new POHO and GM, we're under the same management regime as the last decade. I'm glad McDavid is so awesome.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837625 is a reply to message #837623 ]	Sun, 18 August 2024 16:44

Kr55
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Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Rutuu wrote on Sun, 18 August 2024 15:19

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 18 August 2024 14:06

Only. Couple more days for the org to mull this over.

Just wanna say, F the Blues again. Whatever goes down, hope our new GM has a plan to give us a solid top 4 D group!

As a fan of hockey I'd be more mad if the old boys GM club let this obvious of an opportunity expire without being taken. As a fan, I'm a bit embarrassed instead of mad.

It had been talked about on fan boards during the playoffs, so I feel like we were playing checkers and hoped no one noticed we were about to get a King. Our media setting Holland up here with the missed opportunity in December is also interesting, as it means despite having a new POHO and GM, we're under the same management regime as the last decade. I'm glad McDavid is so awesome.

Is overpaying Broberg that obvious a move? St. Louis is just desperate IMO with Krug out. Doubting Broberg moves the needle much for them. This move seems more Chia than than the old Armstrong, so is probably way past his expiry date with the Blues.

Not sure what King we were about to get too. I kinda like that this is a chance to force the Oilers management to not just sit back with a mediocre bottom 4 D group. Withholding judgement for now until we see what JJ and Bowman do.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837651 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 10:00

Adam
Messages: 7191
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Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

I don't have anywhere near the vitriol that some here do around players accepting offer sheets. I do think it's just part of the CBA, and that it's actually weird that it doesn't happen more.

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837655 is a reply to message #837651 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 10:08

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7823
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Adam wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 10:00

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

I don't have anywhere near the vitriol that some here do around players accepting offer sheets. I do think it's just part of the CBA, and that it's actually weird that it doesn't happen more.

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

I've really enjoyed this week. It's nice having no idea what's going to happen and having a little hockey intrigue in August.

These low value offer sheets are criminally underused.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837659 is a reply to message #837655 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 11:39

Mike
Messages: 1409
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 13:08

These low value offer sheets are criminally underused.

I hate that it happened to us, but I agree 100% - this is exactly how and when to use an offer sheet.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837665 is a reply to message #837659 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 13:23

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

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Mike wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 10:39

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 13:08

These low value offer sheets are criminally underused.

I hate that it happened to us, but I agree 100% - this is exactly how and when to use an offer sheet.

To use it though you need a truck full of cap room and all your own draft picks.. if you have all of that available to you, the teams able to do it are more than likely a rebuilding team.. so I can't see any serious contenders doing this ..

I think these recent offer sheets will make teams play more hard ball with pending RFA's and their agents.. sign longer term earlier in their career.. or we trade your ass and someone else can deal with you.

If teams actually did start treating RFA's like UFA's and offering wild ass contracts to young RFA players.. it means there will be less for the vets.. only so much money to go around.. some older guys careers will come to a halt sooner, or make far less.. so regarding the NHLPA I think it'd be a wash who of its members a trend to more offer sheets actually benefits..

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2024 13:33]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837668 is a reply to message #837655 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 13:37

NetBOG
Messages: 2970
Registered: January 2006
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 10:08

Adam wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 10:00

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

I don't have anywhere near the vitriol that some here do around players accepting offer sheets. I do think it's just part of the CBA, and that it's actually weird that it doesn't happen more.

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

I've really enjoyed this week. It's nice having no idea what's going to happen and having a little hockey intrigue in August.

These low value offer sheets are criminally underused.

There is little precedent for low value offer sheets, but Broberg would have to improve considerably to even hope to be worth this contract. The Oilers should not even consider matching. Take the cap space and the pick and let the Blues make the mistake.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837666 is a reply to message #837651 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 13:27

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 09:00

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

Yeah.. now they're trolling the Oilers.. making it personal.. they feel pretty sure about themselves.. worse case I'd pull the trade with SJ and waiver idea.. even for same picks.. a big FU to Armstrong.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837667 is a reply to message #837666 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 13:32

benv
Messages: 606
Registered: May 2006
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 13:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 09:00

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

Yeah.. now they're trolling the Oilers.. making it personal.. they feel pretty sure about themselves.. worse case I'd pull the trade with SJ and waiver idea.. even for same picks.. a big FU to Armstrong.

This post is directed at Blues fans, not the Oilers. It's literally relaying a fact to the casual fans of the team who may not realize that this situation will be resolved, one way or another, in the next 24 hours.

I think it's a bit narcissistic to make this all about the Oilers and take any offense.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837673 is a reply to message #837667 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 15:43

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

benv wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 13:32

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 13:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 09:00

Quote:

St. Louis Blues
@StLouisBlues

The Oilers have one day to decide whether to match the offers. #stlblues

But this tweet made me see a little bit of red. I hope we light those bastards up every time we play them this year. And now it's not just because Binnington is a whiny little you know what.

Yeah.. now they're trolling the Oilers.. making it personal.. they feel pretty sure about themselves.. worse case I'd pull the trade with SJ and waiver idea.. even for same picks.. a big FU to Armstrong.

This post is directed at Blues fans, not the Oilers. It's literally relaying a fact to the casual fans of the team who may not realize that this situation will be resolved, one way or another, in the next 24 hours.

I think it's a bit narcissistic to make this all about the Oilers and take any offense.

Maybe, but there's been no shortage of social media account trolling in the NHL. The league loves it I think. They like people getting a bit rankled sometimes. I imagine coaches sometimes feel differently, not wanting to give any bulletin board material to the other team.

Honestly, I think being angry at the Blues makes more sense than being angry at the players. The players have short careers and those guys haven't made a lot at this point. They'd be insane to turn down those deals for whatever the Oilers felt they could do to wedge them under the cap. The Blues are totally within their rights, and if Krug's done for the year, they had a massive hole they needed to patch. Hitting both RFAs at the same time made it more likely that they'll be successful here, so away they go.

I think people should be allowed room to feel some level of frustration at the team trying to hamper our championship drive - if that's reflected in spite towards their damnable social media guy, so be it. Even if it smacks on narcissism (although I don't think that's quite the right word here).

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837670 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 15:18

JPro
Messages: 811
Registered: January 2006
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837671 is a reply to message #837670 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 15:28

nullterm
Messages: 1038
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 14:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

Broberg got exactly what he wanted.

Holloway is probably sh'tn bricks right now and firing his agent.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837675 is a reply to message #837671 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 17:31

Kr55
Messages: 10862
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 15:28

JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 14:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

Broberg got exactly what he wanted.

Holloway is probably sh'tn bricks right now and firing his agent.

Maybe Holloway was a Flames fan all along

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837677 is a reply to message #837675 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 18:03

nullterm
Messages: 1038
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 16:31

nullterm wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 15:28

JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 14:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

Broberg got exactly what he wanted.

Holloway is probably sh'tn bricks right now and firing his agent.

Maybe Holloway was a Flames fan all along

Even if he was a Flames fan, he was on the team that gave him the best shot at making a name for himself.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837678 is a reply to message #837677 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 20:10

nullterm
Messages: 1038
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Under 12 hours to go... I suspect the Oilers would have matched by now if there were going to??

Moving out Ceci's cap and then sitting pat seems odd?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837672 is a reply to message #837670 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 15:30

Kr55
Messages: 10862
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 15:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

https://media2.giphy.com/media/fxtFfW0PLoODx9ZunC/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952nae3b0lx7lbw6oipu41eck333jzep73if6g562b8&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

If we let Broberg go, there has got to be another move coming.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837674 is a reply to message #837670 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 15:44

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 15:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

Interesting to see Staples post about this, and then immediately post again as he realizes that many RFAs from around the league (Swayman on the Bruins for example) aren't currently showing up on their teams' roster.

Could mean something, could be nothing. I don't know that I'd take it as a definitive sign. I do agree that if we don't re-sign Broberg, we probably need to make another move instead.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837676 is a reply to message #837670 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 18:00

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
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JPro wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 14:18

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/roster

Holloway and Broberg no longer listed on the roster icon_eek

icon_eek

Spoilers!

Well they're not.. officially.. they signed offer sheets.. Oilers can reverse that if they match.. until then I think they can't really be listed as on the Oiler roster.. that's my read anyway..

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2024 18:03]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837679 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 20:42

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

What do YOU do?[ 15 vote(s) ]

1. Match Broberg (Only) 1 / 7%
2. Match Holloway (Only) 2 / 13%
3. Match BOTH 6 / 40%
4. Walk BOTH 6 / 40%

What would you do?

I'd Match Broberg at least.. After a year.. and you need the cap space.. if he excels.. you can trade for top value.. if he bombs you can buyout for 1/3

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2024 20:44]

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837680 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 20:47

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

What will OILERS do?[ 12 vote(s) ]

1. Match Broberg (Only) 2 / 17%
2. Match Holloway (Only) 1 / 8%
3. Match BOTH 3 / 25%
4. Walk BOTH 6 / 50%

What will Oilers do?

Good chance they see something else as an option if they walk either.. hate to let St. Louis have them for free.. Broberg especially.. a 2nd and 3rd is a weak return..

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837681 is a reply to message #837680 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 21:12

inverno76
Messages: 2352
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

I suppose there is zero harm waiting until the last moment. Better set your alarm Stan if you’re matching. I’d make them all sweat too, but I’m a little vindictive at times.

Where’s Jeff Marek? He’d love the chaos that is ensuing.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837682 is a reply to message #837681 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 22:55

nullterm
Messages: 1038
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inverno76 wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 20:12

I suppose there is zero harm waiting until the last moment. Better set your alarm Stan if you’re matching. I’d make them all sweat too, but I’m a little vindictive at times.

Where’s Jeff Marek? He’d love the chaos that is ensuing.

Didn’t Tallon eventually get fired because he didn’t qualify Versteeg and Barker before the deadline, and ended up paying way more? Shoulda sent as a fax!

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837683 is a reply to message #837682 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 23:02

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
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Location: Burnaby, BC

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nullterm wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 21:55

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 20:12

I suppose there is zero harm waiting until the last moment. Better set your alarm Stan if you’re matching. I’d make them all sweat too, but I’m a little vindictive at times.

Where’s Jeff Marek? He’d love the chaos that is ensuing.

Didn’t Tallon eventually get fired because he didn’t qualify Versteeg and Barker before the deadline, and ended up paying way more? Shoulda sent as a fax!

Supposedly that's why Tallon got punted (I think its actually because he butted heads with the team President) and how Stan got the GM job..

If they qualify I'd qualify in last minute.. let 'em all sweat..

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837684 is a reply to message #837683 ]	Mon, 19 August 2024 23:52

Kr55
Messages: 10862
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 23:02

nullterm wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 21:55

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 19 August 2024 20:12

I suppose there is zero harm waiting until the last moment. Better set your alarm Stan if you’re matching. I’d make them all sweat too, but I’m a little vindictive at times.

Where’s Jeff Marek? He’d love the chaos that is ensuing.

Didn’t Tallon eventually get fired because he didn’t qualify Versteeg and Barker before the deadline, and ended up paying way more? Shoulda sent as a fax!

Supposedly that's why Tallon got punted (I think its actually because he butted heads with the team President) and how Stan got the GM job..

If they qualify I'd qualify in last minute.. let 'em all sweat..

Could see the org wanting to use these 2 players as a statement too. If you aren't here to win, and aren't even willing to negotiate a fair deal, then gtfo.

A trade for a 2nd pair RHD would compliment that statement nicely :)

If Broberg does stick for 4.5M though, he's gonna have an interesting time, especially if he just ends up on the 3rd pair and plays like he has up until that lucky couple weeks. Top candidate for fan hate in 2024/25.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Blues offer sheet Broberg and Holloway [message #837685 is a reply to message #837520 ]	Tue, 20 August 2024 07:29

inverno76
Messages: 2352
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

A difficult decision. As much as I wanted them both back, seeing them go makes sense and the cap hits really screwed up the Cap.

An avoidable mistake. Now Bowman’s gamble on Podkolzin and Emberson will like genius or another black mark on management. Curious, but hardly sold on either pick up. I could be undervaluing both, but it does not take much to replace Ceci’s game the last two years and having Broberg on his wrong side wasn’t the best fit.

I’ll miss Holloway and have zero hope for Podkolzin and would love to be proved wrong. Savoie, Jarventie and Lavoie are all fighting for that spot.

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