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Holland’s Successor [message #830008]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:00

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Listening to the most recent 32 thoughts podcast and Friedman said he thinks Mark Hunter’s (London Knights owner/GM) move to the NHL will coincide with Holland’s retirement.

This is how it happened last time we needed a GM folks. While the local media talked about all the names, Elliotte said multiple times months ahead of the hire that he would not rule out Ken Holland. Then it happened.

I would bet the Oilers already like their guy…

[Updated on: Wed, 21 February 2024 17:08]

Clean house or bust

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830010 is a reply to message #830008 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:06

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

You don't think teams start doing their due diligence way in advance?

I would have to think a guy like Jackson who's worked with probably every GM and AGM in the NHL and other leagues, has a sense of guys he likes.

Whoever they hire needs to have a good handle on finding talent and be a good negotiator for contracts. I don't give a crap if he's a numbers guy, if he is great, if he's not, you go hire people to do that. Just be a guy who can take the information he's given and find talent.

I think talent procurement is key because with the Oilers probably being a cup contender for a bit, they aren't going to have a lot of draft picks for the next few years. So with the picks they have left, you have to find players but more importantly, they have to be able to find talent with junior free agents and other leagues.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 February 2024 16:12]

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830012 is a reply to message #830010 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:17

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

There is nothing wrong with doing this process in advance. In fact they should do that since they know it’s coming.

I have a big issue with handing over the keys to the team with upcoming Draisaitl and McDavid negotiations to a guy who had mostly ran his own junior team (accountable to no one) and got beat out for the Toronto GM job by his younger forward thinking co-assistant GM.

Is Mark Hunter forward thinking? I really really doubt it.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830013 is a reply to message #830012 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 16:17

There is nothing wrong with doing this process in advance. In fact they should do that since they know it’s coming.

I have a big issue with handing over the keys to the team with upcoming Draisaitl and McDavid negotiations to a guy who had mostly ran his own junior team (accountable to no one) and got beat out for the Toronto GM job by his younger forward thinking co-assistant GM.

Is Mark Hunter forward thinking? I really really doubt it.

And you base that opinion on what exactly? Do you know the guy, you know his philosophies and how he operates?

I know nothing about the guy other than what I looked up on Wikipedia. So what's your evidence to say that? If you are going to make a statement like that and plant your flag in the ground saying that if he's the guy, you will complain day 1, then show the evidence.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830014 is a reply to message #830013 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:40

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Toronto literally hired Dubas for GM over him when Lamoriello left. They were both assistant GMs and Dubas won it out. So why was that? Why didn’t the Leafs circle back to Hunter when Dubas left.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sources-leafs-favour-mar k-hunter-kyle-dubas-open-gm-role/

So Shanahan had passed over him twice. He hasn’t worked in the NHL otherwise. That’s my evidence. It would be questionable to let somebody like that lead franchise changing negotiations.

Maybe he is a fantastic scout for junior talent, which is what they say is his strength. Great, then hire him to lead scouting. This is not a resume I want in the GM role.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830017 is a reply to message #830014 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 16:58

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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smyth260 wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 16:40

Toronto literally hired Dubas for GM over him when Lamoriello left. They were both assistant GMs and Dubas won it out. So why was that? Why didn’t the Leafs circle back to Hunter when Dubas left.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sources-leafs-favour-mar k-hunter-kyle-dubas-open-gm-role/

So Shanahan had passed over him twice. He hasn’t worked in the NHL otherwise. That’s my evidence. It would be questionable to let somebody like that lead franchise changing negotiations.

Maybe he is a fantastic scout for junior talent, which is what they say is his strength. Great, then hire him to lead scouting. This is not a resume I want in the GM role.

You are basing your opinion on what happened 6 yrs ago? You are messing with me right?

I'm not advocating for the guy because I don't know much about him but basing your opinion he's no good because he didn't get hired 6 yrs ago seems a little silly in my opinion. People change all the time. I am sure you probably do some things and think a little differently now than you did 6 yrs ago.

How do you know the reason he didn't get hired had nothing to do with hockey? What if Shanahan just didn't like him personality wise as much as he liked Dubas? I am not sure if you are involved in hiring but I am at my company. If we are interviewing people and we have several candidates that all seem like they could do the job, the tie breaker is who you like better and think you can get along with the best.

Plus, I just wanted to check.
How many championships did the Leafs win under Dubas and all his apparently better forward thinking? The answer is ZERO.
How many even playoff series did they win under Dubas? The answer is 1, last year.

So maybe they picked the wrong guy?

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830018 is a reply to message #830017 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 17:07

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

What do you like about Mark Hunter’s resume?

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830053 is a reply to message #830018 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 08:06

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
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smyth260 wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 17:07

What do you like about Mark Hunter’s resume?

I said a couple of times, I don't know anything about the guy other than what I saw on Wikipedia. He could be good or he could be crap. I have no clue. But I am not going to pass judgement on if a person is qualified or not based on zero information. That's like disqualifying a persons job application because you didn't like the color of the paper his resume is printed on.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830056 is a reply to message #830053 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 08:51

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Well it doesn’t make for great discussion if you are going to ignore the information we do have (because it’s not zero) and don’t care to bring anything new.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830057 is a reply to message #830056 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 09:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
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smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 08:51

Well it doesn’t make for great discussion if you are going to ignore the information we do have (because it’s not zero) and don’t care to bring anything new.

What information do we have?

He got passed over 6 yrs ago. You are basing your decision on him being lousy because he didn't get a job 6 yrs ago. Again, are you freaking serious? Do you realize how irrational that is?

And as I said which you ignored. The guy they picked over him did a lousy job. The Leafs did NOTHING under Dubas other than make bad trades, crappy signings and won 1 series in the playoffs in all the years he was GM. So it's quite possible the Leafs picked the WRONG guy.

The "forward thinking guy" in Dubas who lead the Leafs to nothing now runs the Pens and did another stupid move. Trading for 10 mill with 3 yrs left on his contract, going to be 34yr old Karlsson because he scored 100 pts last year. You know how many points he has this year? 39. Not bad but not worth 10 mill when he sucks defensively. It's especially stupid to trade for him when you have a very similar dman in Letang who makes 4 mill less and as 7 less points. Their PP was 14th last year, it's 30th this year. They missed the playoffs last year and they are going to miss the playoffs again! So what a great forward thinking GM Dubas is. I would have used whatever assets and cap space they wasted on Karlsson and used it to actually improve their team.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2024 09:36]

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830058 is a reply to message #830057 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 09:47

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

I also said his only other experience managing a hockey team is the junior team that he co-owns with his brother Dale Hunter. So he is his own boss and is accountable to no one.

That is also information that I don’t think qualifies you for an NHL GM position.

Running an NHL team is much different than being your own boss for a junior team. It requires a wider set of skills. You are dealing with contract negotiations, managing the salary cap, a billionaire owner, making all sorts of hires for an AHL team/executives/pro scouting/junior scouting/analytics department. It is much more than identifying junior talent.

So yes, for the information we do have, I think there are probably much better candidates. Is that rational enough for you or do you want to go on a tangent about the Dubas run Leafs again?

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830060 is a reply to message #830058 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 10:03

RDOilerfan
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smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 09:47

I also said his only other experience managing a hockey team is the junior team that he co-owns with his brother Dale Hunter. So he is his own boss and is accountable to no one.

That is also information that I don’t think qualifies you for an NHL GM position.

Running an NHL team is much different than being your own boss for a junior team. It requires a wider set of skills. You are dealing with contract negotiations, managing the salary cap, a billionaire owner, making all sorts of hires for an AHL team/executives/pro scouting/junior scouting/analytics department. It is much more than identifying junior talent.

So yes, for the information we do have, I think there are probably much better candidates. Is that rational enough for you or do you want to go on a tangent about the Dubas run Leafs again?

What did Kelly McCrimmon who is the Vegas GM do before? He was a junior GM for many years, was AGM of Vegas for a very short time then got the GM job.

What did the Canucks GM do? He was an agent. That's not even managing a junior team. He seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Staios spent a little time with the Leafs, then went to junior, then became the hot commodity.

Hughes for Montreal was an agent.

I'm not going to list all the guys who aren't retreads or guys who spent decades as AGM's. I think it's complete BS that the GM has to have all this experience in the NHL to do the job. Holland has more experience than a person could want yet, people like yourself think he sucks. So in my opinion, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth to try and be right. You want a guy with new ideas and is forward thinking but then you want a guy with lots of experience.

In my opinion, if the GM should be forward thinking and bringing new, fresh ideas, a guy who's spent a long time in the NHL is not that guy.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830063 is a reply to message #830060 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 10:17

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 09:03

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 09:47

I also said his only other experience managing a hockey team is the junior team that he co-owns with his brother Dale Hunter. So he is his own boss and is accountable to no one.

That is also information that I don’t think qualifies you for an NHL GM position.

Running an NHL team is much different than being your own boss for a junior team. It requires a wider set of skills. You are dealing with contract negotiations, managing the salary cap, a billionaire owner, making all sorts of hires for an AHL team/executives/pro scouting/junior scouting/analytics department. It is much more than identifying junior talent.

So yes, for the information we do have, I think there are probably much better candidates. Is that rational enough for you or do you want to go on a tangent about the Dubas run Leafs again?

What did Kelly McCrimmon who is the Vegas GM do before? He was a junior GM for many years, was AGM of Vegas for a very short time then got the GM job.

What did the Canucks GM do? He was an agent. That's not even managing a junior team. He seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Staios spent a little time with the Leafs, then went to junior, then became the hot commodity.

Hughes for Montreal was an agent.

I'm not going to list all the guys who aren't retreads or guys who spent decades as AGM's. I think it's complete BS that the GM has to have all this experience in the NHL to do the job. Holland has more experience than a person could want yet, people like yourself think he sucks. So in my opinion, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth to try and be right. You want a guy with new ideas and is forward thinking but then you want a guy with lots of experience.

In my opinion, if the GM should be forward thinking and bringing new, fresh ideas, a guy who's spent a long time in the NHL is not that guy.

I would love if the Oilers talked to some agents. They certainly can have some of the skills required. Namely, managing the salary cap, negotiating contracts, navigating the CBA. That is a great starting point.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830065 is a reply to message #830063 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 12:23

Mike
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smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:17

I would love if the Oilers talked to some agents. They certainly can have some of the skills required. Namely, managing the salary cap, negotiating contracts, navigating the CBA. That is a great starting point.

I think more than ever managing an NHL team needs a great team of people. Most importantly you need someone at the top who exudes true leadership - someone no to prideful, devoid of pettines. Someone who is more than just "OK" not always being the smartest guy in the room - you want someone who WANTS to have smarter people in the room. Someone who can admit to making a mistake and do what it takes to correct it - not double down in an effort to save face.

And then you need someone who knows hockey as you always have - how to build a team, types of players, etc...You need someone who is a good negotiator for trades. You need a good negotiator for contracts. You need someone who knows and understands the CBA, especially as it relates to the cap, inside and out. You need someone who understands analytics and their applications. You need great pro scouts - the moneyball types of guys, especially when you are in your Cup window.

Though a single guy at the top can't guarantee success, the wrong guy can certainly guarantee failure.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830067 is a reply to message #830065 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 12:50

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Mike wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 11:23

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:17

I would love if the Oilers talked to some agents. They certainly can have some of the skills required. Namely, managing the salary cap, negotiating contracts, navigating the CBA. That is a great starting point.

I think more than ever managing an NHL team needs a great team of people. Most importantly you need someone at the top who exudes true leadership - someone no to prideful, devoid of pettines. Someone who is more than just "OK" not always being the smartest guy in the room - you want someone who WANTS to have smarter people in the room. Someone who can admit to making a mistake and do what it takes to correct it - not double down in an effort to save face.

And then you need someone who knows hockey as you always have - how to build a team, types of players, etc...You need someone who is a good negotiator for trades. You need a good negotiator for contracts. You need someone who knows and understands the CBA, especially as it relates to the cap, inside and out. You need someone who understands analytics and their applications. You need great pro scouts - the moneyball types of guys, especially when you are in your Cup window.

Though a single guy at the top can't guarantee success, the wrong guy can certainly guarantee failure.

For sure. In theory a great GM could just be an expert in hiring the smartest people, evaluating their arguments, then making a decision. And of course, managing the owner.

But I do think having a good base of knowledge on how to manage a salary cap is a starting point.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830068 is a reply to message #830067 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 13:16

CrusaderPi
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smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 12:50

Mike wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 11:23

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:17

I would love if the Oilers talked to some agents. They certainly can have some of the skills required. Namely, managing the salary cap, negotiating contracts, navigating the CBA. That is a great starting point.

I think more than ever managing an NHL team needs a great team of people. Most importantly you need someone at the top who exudes true leadership - someone no to prideful, devoid of pettines. Someone who is more than just "OK" not always being the smartest guy in the room - you want someone who WANTS to have smarter people in the room. Someone who can admit to making a mistake and do what it takes to correct it - not double down in an effort to save face.

And then you need someone who knows hockey as you always have - how to build a team, types of players, etc...You need someone who is a good negotiator for trades. You need a good negotiator for contracts. You need someone who knows and understands the CBA, especially as it relates to the cap, inside and out. You need someone who understands analytics and their applications. You need great pro scouts - the moneyball types of guys, especially when you are in your Cup window.

Though a single guy at the top can't guarantee success, the wrong guy can certainly guarantee failure.

For sure. In theory a great GM could just be an expert in hiring the smartest people, evaluating their arguments, then making a decision. And of course, managing the owner.

But I do think having a good base of knowledge on how to manage a salary cap is a starting point.

This is kind of an argument for a junior GM over a old school NHL GM. Junior teams to manage a bunch of different rules (age, eligibility, school, guys going to the patch, the WJC, draft picks leaving) outside of just finding the best players. It takes a pretty delicate balancing act to be a good hockey team over the long term while avoiding the massive peaks and valleys we see from teams like the Oil Kings. Managing and projecting performance and eligibility isn't much different from projecting performance and cap implications. No doubt a good CHL GM would have to be pretty adept at managing a team of people providing inputs. First question I'd ask in a GM interview is what their desired org structure would be. Second and third would be about information flow and decision making.

Fun facts I just noticed: the Oil Kings have NEVER finished 2nd or 3rd in the central. 7 times in 1st, twice in 4th, four times in fifth,. three times in sixth. Similarly of all the times they've gotten into they playoffs they've either lost out in the first round or gone to the WHL finals except on time.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830069 is a reply to message #830068 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 13:25

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:16

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 12:50

Mike wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 11:23

smyth260 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:17

I would love if the Oilers talked to some agents. They certainly can have some of the skills required. Namely, managing the salary cap, negotiating contracts, navigating the CBA. That is a great starting point.

I think more than ever managing an NHL team needs a great team of people. Most importantly you need someone at the top who exudes true leadership - someone no to prideful, devoid of pettines. Someone who is more than just "OK" not always being the smartest guy in the room - you want someone who WANTS to have smarter people in the room. Someone who can admit to making a mistake and do what it takes to correct it - not double down in an effort to save face.

And then you need someone who knows hockey as you always have - how to build a team, types of players, etc...You need someone who is a good negotiator for trades. You need a good negotiator for contracts. You need someone who knows and understands the CBA, especially as it relates to the cap, inside and out. You need someone who understands analytics and their applications. You need great pro scouts - the moneyball types of guys, especially when you are in your Cup window.

Though a single guy at the top can't guarantee success, the wrong guy can certainly guarantee failure.

For sure. In theory a great GM could just be an expert in hiring the smartest people, evaluating their arguments, then making a decision. And of course, managing the owner.

But I do think having a good base of knowledge on how to manage a salary cap is a starting point.

This is kind of an argument for a junior GM over a old school NHL GM. Junior teams to manage a bunch of different rules (age, eligibility, school, guys going to the patch, the WJC, draft picks leaving) outside of just finding the best players. It takes a pretty delicate balancing act to be a good hockey team over the long term while avoiding the massive peaks and valleys we see from teams like the Oil Kings. Managing and projecting performance and eligibility isn't much different from projecting performance and cap implications. No doubt a good CHL GM would have to be pretty adept at managing a team of people providing inputs. First question I'd ask in a GM interview is what their desired org structure would be. Second and third would be about information flow and decision making.

Fun facts I just noticed: the Oil Kings have NEVER finished 2nd or 3rd in the central. 7 times in 1st, twice in 4th, four times in fifth,. three times in sixth. Similarly of all the times they've gotten into they playoffs they've either lost out in the first round or gone to the WHL finals except on time.

Like Kelly McCrimmon who spent 26 yrs with Brandon who if I remember was typically a pretty decent team in the WHL every year. He went from Brandon to AGM in Vegas, then a couple of years later the GM. So he went from no NHL experience to being the GM in a very short period of time.

Hunter went from the Knights to the Leafs as their director of player personnel, then split the GM duties with Dubas for a bit, then were AGM's under Lou.

I want the Oilers to do their due diligence on lots of candidates but if they come to the decision it's Hunter, his path looks pretty similar to McCrimmon. He actually has more experience than McCrimmon did when he made the jump.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830059 is a reply to message #830057 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 09:54

Dragon_Matt
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the last London Knights championship was 15/16. Since then they've made the playoffs each year, losing twice in round 1 twice in round 2 and once in the championships (and one year lost to COVID).

Their draft history has been a giant 'meh' over the past 6 years with only notable names being Evan Bouchard, Matthew Tkachuk and Connor McMichael. Maybe a shout out for Logan Mailloux.
Obviously if you look back far enough, they do have a number of excellent NHLers that played there over the years.

Sadly, I can't find a history of their trades, so that makes judging them difficult outside of a few that earned media attention.

Worth noting as well, The Hunter's are the owners of the London Knights as well... I'd take that as more of a sign that Mark stays where he is for the rest of his career or until they sell.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830061 is a reply to message #830059 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 10:05

RDOilerfan
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 09:54

the last London Knights championship was 15/16. Since then they've made the playoffs each year, losing twice in round 1 twice in round 2 and once in the championships (and one year lost to COVID).

Their draft history has been a giant 'meh' over the past 6 years with only notable names being Evan Bouchard, Matthew Tkachuk and Connor McMichael. Maybe a shout out for Logan Mailloux.
Obviously if you look back far enough, they do have a number of excellent NHLers that played there over the years.

Sadly, I can't find a history of their trades, so that makes judging them difficult outside of a few that earned media attention.

Worth noting as well, The Hunter's are the owners of the London Knights as well... I'd take that as more of a sign that Mark stays where he is for the rest of his career or until they sell.

Who ever the GM ends up being, people shouldn't be disqualifying ANYONE from the process before it starts.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830062 is a reply to message #830061 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 10:09

Mullet
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Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Well there was speculation before that it was going to be Dave Gagner which turned out to be not true so I think we take it with a grain of salt.

WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher, smarter, faster and better looking than most people.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830064 is a reply to message #830062 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 10:20

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

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Friedman carries more weight when he says something.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830022 is a reply to message #830008 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 19:03

NetBOG
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Whoever Connor wants. As soon as he signs the 8 year extension, then the Oilers can be run autonomously again.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830030 is a reply to message #830022 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 20:36

oiltec
Messages: 100
Registered: December 2022

No Cups

Serious question, you really think McD is going to re-up with the Oil?

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830034 is a reply to message #830030 ]	Wed, 21 February 2024 21:52

HamBlaster
Messages: 1007
Registered: June 2007

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The Oilers have perfected the garbage effort second period.

Teams that skate and actually play hard, and have some legit talent, own this Oilers squad.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830054 is a reply to message #830030 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 08:09

CrusaderPi
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oiltec wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 20:36

Serious question, you really think McD is going to re-up with the Oil?

I think it would depend if he believes he can win here.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830055 is a reply to message #830030 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 08:41

RDOilerfan
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oiltec wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 20:36

Serious question, you really think McD is going to re-up with the Oil?

I do. This isn't me saying it with Oilers glasses on.

He knows he's going to make his money where ever he plays. He's already heavily endorsed playing in Edmonton. So I think it will be all about legacy. What better place to build your legacy than in the place where the greatest player to play the game did it. Gretzky wasn't traded because he wanted to leave. He wanted to stay. He was sold.

If McD stays in Edmonton, hopefully wins some cups and probably breaks Oilers records held by the Great One, he becomes a legend. If you jump ship to chase lifestyle, money or maybe try to win a cup, you are just another guy pulling the pin on the team that made you and I think his chances to win go down.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830049 is a reply to message #830008 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 00:36

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 21 February 2024 16:00

Listening to the most recent 32 thoughts podcast and Friedman said he thinks Mark Hunter’s (London Knights owner/GM) move to the NHL will coincide with Holland’s retirement.

This is how it happened last time we needed a GM folks. While the local media talked about all the names, Elliotte said multiple times months ahead of the hire that he would not rule out Ken Holland. Then it happened.

I would bet the Oilers already like their guy…

It would be shocking to no one if the Oilers pick a successor GM with minimal diligence. Especially if they picked someone who was a hockey player in the 1980s and has disdain for modern things like analytics, or diverse opinions in the room.

I don't know who I'd choose if I was picking the next GM. I'd definitely want to interview many candidates though for a job that could be the best and also hardest in the NHL over the next 5 years. I highly doubt that I'd pick Mark Hunter out of that field as the guy though.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830070 is a reply to message #830008 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

inverno76
Messages: 2352
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830071 is a reply to message #830070 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 14:04

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830072 is a reply to message #830071 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 15:04

Mike
Messages: 1409
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

Watch the Oilers finally do the same and get fined a couple 1st round picks for cap circumvention.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830073 is a reply to message #830072 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 15:17

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Mike wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 15:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

Watch the Oilers finally do the same and get fined a couple 1st round picks for cap circumvention.

It wouldn't shock me. I believe last year Bettman sent a memo out saying teams weren't allowed to trade for injured guys because it was cap circumvention then Vegas does it. They load up on guys at the deadline, then magically all their hurt guys are healed game 1. I think they were 10-15 mill over the cap last year.

It's a simple solution. Make it so your team on the ice each game has to be cap compliant. You can have a bunch of guys called up and on the team sitting in the pressbox that don't count against the cap but the team that steps on the ice has to be cap compliant. You let s team dress their line up how ever that want. To be compliant, if you want to load up on a bunch of expensive guys and as a result have to roll 9 forwards, 6 dmen and a goalie. That's fine as long as it's under the cap. There are teams over the years that have to play short to be under the cap in the regular season so the rules should carry over to the playoffs.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830075 is a reply to message #830071 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2024 17:34]

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830079 is a reply to message #830075 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 22:00

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7825
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Actually don't even hate the game, we all signed up for this.

The simple truth is the Oilers are playing the cap circumvention game as much as everyone else (Campbell, Smith, Brown) they're just not as good at it.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830080 is a reply to message #830079 ]	Thu, 22 February 2024 22:42

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 22:00

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Actually don't even hate the game, we all signed up for this.

The simple truth is the Oilers are playing the cap circumvention game as much as everyone else (Campbell, Smith, Brown) they're just not as good at it.

At this stage, a lot of these circumventions are really only just playing by the established rules. People complain about Tampa or Vegas doing these things, but the reality is that the NHL has been clear for over a decade that they want trade deadline deals, so they're not going to do something that discourages them from happening. They don't care about it enough to stop it.

One of the most discouraging things with Holland was when he admitted that he didn't even think about doing some of the things his counterparts were doing a few years ago - not even the thought about using a third party team to split up the cap hit further - and said that he needed to keep cap room available in case Slater Koekkoek returned from injury. It really told you all you ever needed to know about Mr. Holland as a GM.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830082 is a reply to message #830079 ]	Fri, 23 February 2024 01:41

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 21:00

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Actually don't even hate the game, we all signed up for this.

The simple truth is the Oilers are playing the cap circumvention game as much as everyone else (Campbell, Smith, Brown) they're just not as good at it.

Well then if we want to follow the Vegas lead, Oiler should just call up Campbell for a few games.. and find a doctor to diagnose Campbell has an "inner ear" condition that impairs his balance.. pretty easy.. presto $5M cap available..

..kind of what Marion Hossa did for the Red Wings.. he had a chronic skin "rash" that "prevented" him from playing.. but he didn't retire.. just stayed on LTIR.. he got paid out in full.. and no cap hit to Red Wings.. Not hard to find a workable medical "opinion" somewhere.. the diagnosis for some conditions are inherently a little fuzzy, not definitive .. hard to prove true, or untrue.. just need the condition to be a legit possibility.. 🙂 Might be harder to find a doctor in Canada to do it though.. in the US no problem.. medical opinions are for sale.

but.. that would never happen.. .. what would likely happen is the NHL would require the Oilers to provide indisputable medical evidence proving the accuracy of the diagnosis.. and/or the NHL would send in their own independent specialists to examine Campbell.. just to make sure everything is legit and there isn't any attempt at cap circumvention going on.. 😉

.. Oh.. and of course if they did try it, the Oilers would somehow lose a 2nd round draft pick at the end of the whole process just for making the attempt at playing the LTIR game. icon_nod

icon_nod

[Updated on: Fri, 23 February 2024 01:42]

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830087 is a reply to message #830082 ]	Fri, 23 February 2024 08:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7825
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 23 February 2024 01:41

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 21:00

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Actually don't even hate the game, we all signed up for this.

The simple truth is the Oilers are playing the cap circumvention game as much as everyone else (Campbell, Smith, Brown) they're just not as good at it.

Well then if we want to follow the Vegas lead, Oiler should just call up Campbell for a few games.. and find a doctor to diagnose Campbell has an "inner ear" condition that impairs his balance.. pretty easy.. presto $5M cap available..

..kind of what Marion Hossa did for the Red Wings.. he had a chronic skin "rash" that "prevented" him from playing.. but he didn't retire.. just stayed on LTIR.. he got paid out in full.. and no cap hit to Red Wings.. Not hard to find a workable medical "opinion" somewhere.. the diagnosis for some conditions are inherently a little fuzzy, not definitive .. hard to prove true, or untrue.. just need the condition to be a legit possibility.. 🙂 Might be harder to find a doctor in Canada to do it though.. in the US no problem.. medical opinions are for sale.

but.. that would never happen.. .. what would likely happen is the NHL would require the Oilers to provide indisputable medical evidence proving the accuracy of the diagnosis.. and/or the NHL would send in their own independent specialists to examine Campbell.. just to make sure everything is legit and there isn't any attempt at cap circumvention going on.. 😉

.. Oh.. and of course if they did try it, the Oilers would somehow lose a 2nd round draft pick at the end of the whole process just for making the attempt at playing the LTIR game. icon_nod

icon_nod

It worked with Ference and Smith but the Oilers are only savvy enough to pull that off in the offseason.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830097 is a reply to message #830087 ]	Fri, 23 February 2024 12:19

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 23 February 2024 07:40

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 23 February 2024 01:41

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 21:00

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 17:32

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:04

inverno76 wrote on Thu, 22 February 2024 13:59

Hunter and the Knights are infamous for doing sketchy things to circumvent CHL rules and although heavily speculated, they have never been caught. Sign me up. Tired of playing within the rules while teams like the Lightning and Vegas screw around without consequence.

No kidding. Look at Vegas. Anyone shocked a few players all of a sudden are hurt a couple of weeks prior to the deadline?

I just took a look at Vegas roster on IR..

Eichel ($10M), Lehner ($5M) and Bjornfot ($775K) are all on LTIR .. grand total of $16M in cap relief.. with Jack getting ready just in time for game #1 of playoffs... .. and Lehner never coming back off LTIR after hip surgery last year (they used Lehner's cap relief to sign Aiden Hill this past summer)

They also currently have Stone ($10M), Carrier, and Dorofeyev on regular IR at $12M .. which could all be put on LTIR retrospectively.. creating lots of cap and roster "flexibility" :)

Looks like Vegas is shaping up to have $10M in cap space available for a significant trade at the deadline..

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Actually don't even hate the game, we all signed up for this.

The simple truth is the Oilers are playing the cap circumvention game as much as everyone else (Campbell, Smith, Brown) they're just not as good at it.

Well then if we want to follow the Vegas lead, Oiler should just call up Campbell for a few games.. and find a doctor to diagnose Campbell has an "inner ear" condition that impairs his balance.. pretty easy.. presto $5M cap available..

..kind of what Marion Hossa did for the Red Wings.. he had a chronic skin "rash" that "prevented" him from playing.. but he didn't retire.. just stayed on LTIR.. he got paid out in full.. and no cap hit to Red Wings.. Not hard to find a workable medical "opinion" somewhere.. the diagnosis for some conditions are inherently a little fuzzy, not definitive .. hard to prove true, or untrue.. just need the condition to be a legit possibility.. 🙂 Might be harder to find a doctor in Canada to do it though.. in the US no problem.. medical opinions are for sale.

but.. that would never happen.. .. what would likely happen is the NHL would require the Oilers to provide indisputable medical evidence proving the accuracy of the diagnosis.. and/or the NHL would send in their own independent specialists to examine Campbell.. just to make sure everything is legit and there isn't any attempt at cap circumvention going on.. 😉

.. Oh.. and of course if they did try it, the Oilers would somehow lose a 2nd round draft pick at the end of the whole process just for making the attempt at playing the LTIR game. icon_nod

icon_nod

It worked with Ference and Smith but the Oilers are only savvy enough to pull that off in the offseason.

Didn't Smith actually retire?

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #830099 is a reply to message #830097 ]	Fri, 23 February 2024 12:28

smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Duncan Keith retired.

Mike Smith went on LTIR for his last year of contract.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Holland’s Successor [message #836309 is a reply to message #830008 ]	Fri, 14 June 2024 18:53

Kr55
Messages: 10865
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Starting up some daily prayers to the hockey gods that Ken Holland gets a GM job on a team with lots of cap space.

Kenny, we're gonna blow your mind fella. You can have some Oilers for FREE. I know you don't think you can ever get players for free, but we'll do it, just for you.

Nurse, Cambpell, Kane. Take your pick, or take them all buddy! We'll toss in a 6th and you give a 7th. Literally FREEEEEEEE

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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