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WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829296]	Tue, 30 January 2024 15:51

NetBOG
Messages: 2948
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

I didn't know where to put this so I made a new thread.

I seems all 5 main players in this mess have finally been named. At one point we heard 8 players were involved, but maybe they cleared 3 of them.

Alex Formenton seems to have been the infamous 'Player #1'. He surrendered to London police on Sunday.

The others have been named as Carter Hart, Dillon Dube, Mike McLeod, and Cal Foote. They have all been asked to surrender to London police.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/39424198/four-nhl-player s-directed-surrender-sexual-assault-charges

Hopefully this lead to meaningful, systematic changes within Hockey Canada. It won't, they already tried to buy the victim off, but we can always hope somebody grows a conscience.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829332 is a reply to message #829296 ]	Thu, 01 February 2024 15:47

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

I believe members were discussing the scandal in the 23-24 season thread.

Yahoo Canada is mentioning that Michael Mcleod is getting a second charge...perhaps he was the main culprit in seducing the victim and opening the room door for others to come in.

Agreed....there need to be wholesale changes to prevent this from happening to future victims which simultaneously benefits players in NOT feeling compelled to participate in what seems to be a toxic ritual passed on for decades within the junior hockey system

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829336 is a reply to message #829332 ]	Thu, 01 February 2024 16:16

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829371 is a reply to message #829336 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2024 13:53]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829373 is a reply to message #829371 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 14:24

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829377 is a reply to message #829373 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829378 is a reply to message #829377 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 16:19

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829379 is a reply to message #829378 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829380 is a reply to message #829379 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2024 16:45]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829381 is a reply to message #829380 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 17:01

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

Jocks that think they've got it made taking advantage of young girls is a tradition as old as time. Knew of guys as early as Jr High that were doing that stuff. One in particular that became famous for reasons he would never have chosen, but I had a grin every time he was being praised by old Don on HNIC.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

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- MacT, 2015

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829391 is a reply to message #829381 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 08:21

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

Jocks that think they've got it made taking advantage of young girls is a tradition as old as time. Knew of guys as early as Jr High that were doing that stuff. One in particular that became famous for reasons he would never have chosen, but I had a grin every time he was being praised by old Don on HNIC.

I would agree with you. There are teenage jocks playing every kind of sport at probably every school who think they are king of the school and can do what they want. But that is not a Hockey Canada thing. That is a societal thing where these kids think they are better than others. Again, I am not sticking up for Hockey Canada, they clearly do some shady stuff. But the kids that make the WJC teams have been on all the big travelling, Hockey Canada teams for years before that so I don't for a second think Hockey Canada is indoctrinating these kids teaching them that they should be raping girls. Do they pump them up and tell them they are great and feeding their ego? I am sure they do they aren't telling them to be sex offenders. In my opinion, there is something off in a persons personality to do what they did.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829394 is a reply to message #829391 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 10:28

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 08:21

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

Jocks that think they've got it made taking advantage of young girls is a tradition as old as time. Knew of guys as early as Jr High that were doing that stuff. One in particular that became famous for reasons he would never have chosen, but I had a grin every time he was being praised by old Don on HNIC.

I would agree with you. There are teenage jocks playing every kind of sport at probably every school who think they are king of the school and can do what they want. But that is not a Hockey Canada thing. That is a societal thing where these kids think they are better than others. Again, I am not sticking up for Hockey Canada, they clearly do some shady stuff. But the kids that make the WJC teams have been on all the big travelling, Hockey Canada teams for years before that so I don't for a second think Hockey Canada is indoctrinating these kids teaching them that they should be raping girls. Do they pump them up and tell them they are great and feeding their ego? I am sure they do they aren't telling them to be sex offenders. In my opinion, there is something off in a persons personality to do what they did.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. All hockey canada can do is keep upping punishments and threats of punishment to try to stop d-baggy kids from acting on their impulses. Little dirtbags are always going to keep showing up though, you can't proactively stop and interfere in how every kid is raised, and stop parents from treating their hockey star kid like they can do no wrong their whole lives and are young gods in the making.

I suppose you can just keep giving hockey canada heck that they aren't monitoring kids close enough, and that the punishments need to be more severe. If cases like this were popping up every year and there was some proof of anyone in hockey canada participating, for sure, crack some heads for real. But seems like this is just a classic story. Good on the lady for pushing through to try to get justice, assuming it's all true.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 February 2024 10:30]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829396 is a reply to message #829394 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 10:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 10:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 08:21

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

Jocks that think they've got it made taking advantage of young girls is a tradition as old as time. Knew of guys as early as Jr High that were doing that stuff. One in particular that became famous for reasons he would never have chosen, but I had a grin every time he was being praised by old Don on HNIC.

I would agree with you. There are teenage jocks playing every kind of sport at probably every school who think they are king of the school and can do what they want. But that is not a Hockey Canada thing. That is a societal thing where these kids think they are better than others. Again, I am not sticking up for Hockey Canada, they clearly do some shady stuff. But the kids that make the WJC teams have been on all the big travelling, Hockey Canada teams for years before that so I don't for a second think Hockey Canada is indoctrinating these kids teaching them that they should be raping girls. Do they pump them up and tell them they are great and feeding their ego? I am sure they do they aren't telling them to be sex offenders. In my opinion, there is something off in a persons personality to do what they did.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. All hockey canada can do is keep upping punishments and threats of punishment to try to stop d-baggy kids from acting on their impulses. Little dirtbags are always going to keep showing up though, you can't proactively stop and interfere in how every kid is raised, and stop parents from treating their hockey star kid like they can do no wrong their whole lives and are young gods in the making.

I suppose you can just keep giving hockey canada heck that they aren't monitoring kids close enough, and that the punishments need to be more severe. If cases like this were popping up every year and there was some proof of anyone in hockey canada participating, for sure, crack some heads for real. But seems like this is just a classic story. Good on the lady for pushing through to try to get justice, assuming it's all true.

They could try to monitor these kids but how do you 24-7, 365? When they are at a Hockey Canada events, could it only be too practice/game/training/event then back to the hotel and lock them in their room? I guess so but what happens when these kids go back to their junior or college teams?

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829397 is a reply to message #829396 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 11:16

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 10:59

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 10:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 08:21

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:40

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 17:19

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 16:14

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 15:24

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

I see the payoffs as a separate thing. I don't agree with them. This should have said something when it happened instead of hide it. I 100% agree with that. But what is some guy sitting in an office at Hockey Canada responsible for if some dirt bag teen boy does this at some even in pick a City?

These kids did a criminal act. There are Hockey Canada rules on my kids minor hockey association page. Doing criminal activities isn't allowed. So I don't get how they stop people from being bad people. There was a kid that ran a kid in one of my oldest games, then was taunting the crowd as he got kicked out. It's not the hockey associations fault this kid did he, he's just a jerk. The cover up part, needs to stop but systematic changes to stop the offenses from taking place, I don't see how or what can be done. Hopefully these kids are raised right to know it's not OK.

Would guys losing NHL careers & lucrative earnings for something they were "indoctrinated" into thinking was a harmless ritualistic group prank while having this blasted all over mainstream media get the message across to future players?

To say it's indoctrinated in these kids, you are saying Hockey Canada on purpose is teaching these kids that raping a girl is what you do when you are a high level player. I am not in the room or in the meetings, so I don't have a way to 100% say you are wrong but you are telling me Hockey Canada grooms these kids to be sex offenders?

You are messing with me right? You can't seriously believe that.

Obviously, I'm not saying Hockey Canada...the organization...is indoctrinating these kids into carrying out these practices.

"Undocumented traditions on the down low" are always passed onto future generations of young people in any part of the world that technically fall under the category of "breaking rules."

What preserves these practices over time is obviously some form of peer pressure amongst young people...selling their peers on "fear of missing out" or "becoming one of the cool kids" is obviously prevalent.

^With that being said, the junior hockey subculture amongst certain young players (once again "not all") probably view this as a harmless prank that "technically goes against the law" much like drinking underage, smoking a blunt, driving over the speed limit, etc....and that's where the problem lies

You are acting like these teenage hockey players are the only teenagers out there that drink underage or smoke a joint or speed while driving. You ever drive by a highschool or watch as these kids come out in their cars after school? I'll admit, I drank underaged, I sped when I drove, I smoked a joint when I was a teenager. I played a little minor hockey but I was not on a WJC team. So Hockey Canada didn't make me do it.

Plus, raping a girl is WAY WAY WAY beyond sneaking a beer from your dads fridge when you are 17. You have to be next level bad in my opinion to want to do that to a girl vs going over the speed limit a little in your car down the highway.

Jocks that think they've got it made taking advantage of young girls is a tradition as old as time. Knew of guys as early as Jr High that were doing that stuff. One in particular that became famous for reasons he would never have chosen, but I had a grin every time he was being praised by old Don on HNIC.

I would agree with you. There are teenage jocks playing every kind of sport at probably every school who think they are king of the school and can do what they want. But that is not a Hockey Canada thing. That is a societal thing where these kids think they are better than others. Again, I am not sticking up for Hockey Canada, they clearly do some shady stuff. But the kids that make the WJC teams have been on all the big travelling, Hockey Canada teams for years before that so I don't for a second think Hockey Canada is indoctrinating these kids teaching them that they should be raping girls. Do they pump them up and tell them they are great and feeding their ego? I am sure they do they aren't telling them to be sex offenders. In my opinion, there is something off in a persons personality to do what they did.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. All hockey canada can do is keep upping punishments and threats of punishment to try to stop d-baggy kids from acting on their impulses. Little dirtbags are always going to keep showing up though, you can't proactively stop and interfere in how every kid is raised, and stop parents from treating their hockey star kid like they can do no wrong their whole lives and are young gods in the making.

I suppose you can just keep giving hockey canada heck that they aren't monitoring kids close enough, and that the punishments need to be more severe. If cases like this were popping up every year and there was some proof of anyone in hockey canada participating, for sure, crack some heads for real. But seems like this is just a classic story. Good on the lady for pushing through to try to get justice, assuming it's all true.

They could try to monitor these kids but how do you 24-7, 365? When they are at a Hockey Canada events, could it only be too practice/game/training/event then back to the hotel and lock them in their room? I guess so but what happens when these kids go back to their junior or college teams?

Guess an enforced curfew could work. Escorts to the bars and back. Video session before the tournament to teach these lads that abusing and taking advantage of women is bad in case they didn't know already.

What happens after? Does it matter? I think we only care what happens on Hockey Canada's time.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829402 is a reply to message #829397 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Perkele
Messages: 223
Registered: July 2006
Location: St. Catharines

No Cups

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

#teamBath(i)robe

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829403 is a reply to message #829402 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 15:18

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Perkele wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

Do you think that if there was no secret fund, it would have stopped the players from doing it?

I have no way of knowing but I bet these players didn't even know the fund existed at the time they did it. Just my opinion but if you are the type that is willing to sexually assault a girl, I doubt you care about the girl, what happens to her or what she will get. If those 5 gave a second thought to anything, even if it's just for their own financial well being, they wouldn't have done it because they have easily cost themselves at minimum, multiple years of professional hockey earnings and potentially, they could be done playing pro hockey, at least in North America. I don't how it would work getting a contract in Europe if they have some kind of a record with these charges or if any European team would want to touch them. They decided there were doing that and they did it.

But I would guess that if you are willing to do what those 5 did to someone, you really don't care about anyone or anything.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 February 2024 16:45]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829405 is a reply to message #829403 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 17:51

Perkele
Messages: 223
Registered: July 2006
Location: St. Catharines

No Cups

I'm not saying that it would have stopped them but it might have meant that justice has a chance to be served in 2018 instead of 6 years later. If Hockey Canada wouldn't have helped to cover these things up, and allowed the people to be held accountable (both legally and by Hockey Canada themselves) it could have served as a deterrent to others. I think it is fair to say that some of the guys might have turned down going to their buddies room to run a train on a chick if they thought that news getting back to anyone at HC would cost them the ability to put on the maple leaf in the future.

#teamBath(i)robe

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829410 is a reply to message #829403 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829414 is a reply to message #829410 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one else's fault they did it but theirs. I think the way this discussion has gone, it's a representation of how society is now. It's always someone else's fault. They raped a girl but it's Hockey Canada's fault for apparently setting the tone or whatever apparently is there fault, that assaulting women is cool.

Crazy idea. How about instead of blaming someone else, you just don't be a dirt bag and don't break the law. You know it's wrong, so just don't do what's wrong. I don't think anyone was pointing a gun to their head. Radical idea. I know. confused2

confused2

[Updated on: Tue, 06 February 2024 08:54]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829416 is a reply to message #829414 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 09:01

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one elses fault they did it but theirs.

The flush fund is a separate issue to the event, but connected to the sport mentality of the players. More of this happens than we see. Growing up in a Junior hockey city that is very small, I can attest to hearing rumours of similar behaviour, albeit this was 30 years ago. Police made a lot of DUI's go away for the chosen ones in my day. What else was covered up?

Currently having teenage daughters in the only high school the Raiders WHL team can attend, I can confidentially say that the aura of "I can get away with things because I am Prince Albert Raider" still exists. The only saving grace is that hockey has started to take a back seat to other sports, and the 'shine' of playing Junior hockey is not as big a deal anymore.

And the blame falls on the individual who commits the crime, but it does not abscond the others who perpetuate the behaviour or mentality.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 February 2024 09:03]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829418 is a reply to message #829416 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 09:23

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one elses fault they did it but theirs.

The flush fund is a separate issue to the event, but connected to the sport mentality of the players. More of this happens than we see. Growing up in a Junior hockey city that is very small, I can attest to hearing rumours of similar behaviour, albeit this was 30 years ago. Police made a lot of DUI's go away for the chosen ones in my day. What else was covered up?

Currently having teenage daughters in the only high school the Raiders WHL team can attend, I can confidentially say that the aura of "I can get away with things because I am Prince Albert Raider" still exists. The only saving grace is that hockey has started to take a back seat to other sports, and the 'shine' of playing Junior hockey is not as big a deal anymore.

And the blame falls on the individual who commits the crime, but it does not abscond the others who perpetuate the behaviour or mentality.

I agree, these high end hockey players, a lot of them think they can do no wrong. But that comes from their HOME.

My oldest goes to school with a bunch of kids who have been double AA since U 11. They are in grade 7. Most of these kids aren't going to Hockey Canada tournaments yet. So where do you think the attitude they already have, some of them have without doing anything with Hockey Canada yet, came from?

If it's so indoctrinated into these kids because of Hockey Canada, and they in whatever way let these kids know there are no rules or laws, do what you want, it's expected, how come it doesn't happen every year? I got 2 boys. It's my job as their dad to turn my boys into men. If my boys don't know how to respect women when they get older, that's on me. I'm not pointing the finger at their hockey coaches or the hockey association and saying it's their fault. If my boys start to become cocky little craps who think they can do whatever they want, then it's on me to correct that, not their hockey coach.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829419 is a reply to message #829418 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 09:47

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:23

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one elses fault they did it but theirs.

The flush fund is a separate issue to the event, but connected to the sport mentality of the players. More of this happens than we see. Growing up in a Junior hockey city that is very small, I can attest to hearing rumours of similar behaviour, albeit this was 30 years ago. Police made a lot of DUI's go away for the chosen ones in my day. What else was covered up?

Currently having teenage daughters in the only high school the Raiders WHL team can attend, I can confidentially say that the aura of "I can get away with things because I am Prince Albert Raider" still exists. The only saving grace is that hockey has started to take a back seat to other sports, and the 'shine' of playing Junior hockey is not as big a deal anymore.

And the blame falls on the individual who commits the crime, but it does not abscond the others who perpetuate the behaviour or mentality.

I agree, these high end hockey players, a lot of them think they can do no wrong. But that comes from their HOME.

My oldest goes to school with a bunch of kids who have been double AA since U 11. They are in grade 7. Most of these kids aren't going to Hockey Canada tournaments yet. So where do you think the attitude they already have, some of them have without doing anything with Hockey Canada yet, came from?

If it's so indoctrinated into these kids because of Hockey Canada, and they in whatever way let these kids know there are no rules or laws, do what you want, it's expected, how come it doesn't happen every year? I got 2 boys. It's my job as their dad to turn my boys into men. If my boys don't know how to respect women when they get older, that's on me. I'm not pointing the finger at their hockey coaches or the hockey association and saying it's their fault. If my boys start to become cocky little craps who think they can do whatever they want, then it's on me to correct that, not their hockey coach.

I am not disagreeing with the premise it comes from the home, but I am adding that it is either ignored or glorified as they get older by the many people involved in Hockey Canada, or at the very least the old regime that ran the show.

Role model good values, respect and kindness and the chances your kid becomes a criminal lessens by nth degree. Poor role modelling can still be salvaged by a positive influence, ie coach, teacher, friends, friends family. Poor role modelling in addition to a system that turns a blind eye to poor behaviour is where we are today.

It sounds like your boys have the proper home life and quality coaching. Good for them, but that is not a 100% across the board. Hockey Canada has to do a better job at vetting.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 February 2024 09:49]

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829423 is a reply to message #829419 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 10:28

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:23

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one elses fault they did it but theirs.

The flush fund is a separate issue to the event, but connected to the sport mentality of the players. More of this happens than we see. Growing up in a Junior hockey city that is very small, I can attest to hearing rumours of similar behaviour, albeit this was 30 years ago. Police made a lot of DUI's go away for the chosen ones in my day. What else was covered up?

Currently having teenage daughters in the only high school the Raiders WHL team can attend, I can confidentially say that the aura of "I can get away with things because I am Prince Albert Raider" still exists. The only saving grace is that hockey has started to take a back seat to other sports, and the 'shine' of playing Junior hockey is not as big a deal anymore.

And the blame falls on the individual who commits the crime, but it does not abscond the others who perpetuate the behaviour or mentality.

I agree, these high end hockey players, a lot of them think they can do no wrong. But that comes from their HOME.

My oldest goes to school with a bunch of kids who have been double AA since U 11. They are in grade 7. Most of these kids aren't going to Hockey Canada tournaments yet. So where do you think the attitude they already have, some of them have without doing anything with Hockey Canada yet, came from?

If it's so indoctrinated into these kids because of Hockey Canada, and they in whatever way let these kids know there are no rules or laws, do what you want, it's expected, how come it doesn't happen every year? I got 2 boys. It's my job as their dad to turn my boys into men. If my boys don't know how to respect women when they get older, that's on me. I'm not pointing the finger at their hockey coaches or the hockey association and saying it's their fault. If my boys start to become cocky little craps who think they can do whatever they want, then it's on me to correct that, not their hockey coach.

I am not disagreeing with the premise it comes from the home, but I am adding that it is either ignored or glorified as they get older by the many people involved in Hockey Canada, or at the very least the old regime that ran the show.

Role model good values, respect and kindness and the chances your kid becomes a criminal lessens by nth degree. Poor role modelling can still be salvaged by a positive influence, ie coach, teacher, friends, friends family. Poor role modelling in addition to a system that turns a blind eye to poor behaviour is where we are today.

It sounds like your boys have the proper home life and quality coaching. Good for them, but that is not a 100% across the board. Hockey Canada has to do a better job at vetting.

I just struggle with the idea that it's someone else's job to raise a persons kids.

I agree that coaches and teachers like it or not are role models. But how far should we expect these guys to go and how much do we expect them to do is the question. The kids on the WJC team are what, 18, 19, 20? These coaches get appointed based on performance primarily. These coaches meet/work with these kids for what 2 months? (i don't know how long the total time is for their training camp & tournament, so someone can correct me if 2 months isn't right). But regardless, it's not a long time. So when a 19 yr old comes onto the WJC team under Hockey Canada and there is a few of them (because it's not all of them that do this) who don't have the right attitude based on how they were raised or whatever else happened, the expectation is in the 2 months they are around coach X, he fixes 18, 19, 20 yrs of raising?

I am not trying to argue with you, I just don't think it's realistic to expect a hockey association to fix some bad kids. Could they help? Maybe but in my opinion, if you are Ok to sexually assault a girl, you got issues way beyond hockey.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829424 is a reply to message #829423 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 10:35

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

It's not their job. It's everyone's everywhere.
We, as parents, are far from the only people/mentors shaping our children's lives. The handle we can have over who gives what influence only goes so far. Do everything you can in the time you have it and try to shape your little humans into good men with good moral compasses. When they walk out that door, you just don't know who the next person to influence your kids will be, or in what direction.
You don't have to 'take a kid under your wing' to be that positive influence in their life either. Just be a good person and hope that someone at the tilting point of their morality balance beam takes a step in the right direction.
I have a friend with 3 older brothers. All have been in jail, two repeatedly, and he says that without me as his moral compass as a child, he likely would have gone in that same direction. It wasn't my job as a 10 year old. But it was my impact.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829428 is a reply to message #829423 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 11:55

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 10:28

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:23

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:49

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:35

It does not matter if the players knew about a slush fund or not. The fact that it is was created says more about the mentality of the old Hockey Canada regime. If you are creating a fund to pay off lawsuits you are expecting poor behaviour from your athletes.

"Boys will be boys"
"She put herself in that position"
"She was asking for it"
"We cannot let a small indiscretion ruin these boys' careers"

Hockey Canada will never admit to saying this stuff, but there actions show they support that line of thinking. Same goes for a lot of the comment sections (I can only read them for a few finger scrolls before I feel nauseated). The kids might be the problem, but the reason they are this way is from the adults influencing them. It's a horrible cycle that needs to end. Unfortunately it will not be in my lifetime and at 48 I am barely half way done. Some people present as good humans, but when the light shines on them you find out how horrible they can be.

I think what you are saying is deflecting blame away from who did these terrible things. Slush fund or not, these 5 made the choice to sexually assault someone. They are sex offenders.

1000's of kids play hockey every year and even with evil Hockey Canada apparently setting some mentality, they manage not to rape a girl. Is that just luck? I don't think those 5 doubled checked to make sure there was a slush fund in place to pay this girl off before they made the choice to do what they did and I don't think if there wasn't one, they would have not done it.

These 5 are dirt bags, they are criminals, it's no one elses fault they did it but theirs.

The flush fund is a separate issue to the event, but connected to the sport mentality of the players. More of this happens than we see. Growing up in a Junior hockey city that is very small, I can attest to hearing rumours of similar behaviour, albeit this was 30 years ago. Police made a lot of DUI's go away for the chosen ones in my day. What else was covered up?

Currently having teenage daughters in the only high school the Raiders WHL team can attend, I can confidentially say that the aura of "I can get away with things because I am Prince Albert Raider" still exists. The only saving grace is that hockey has started to take a back seat to other sports, and the 'shine' of playing Junior hockey is not as big a deal anymore.

And the blame falls on the individual who commits the crime, but it does not abscond the others who perpetuate the behaviour or mentality.

I agree, these high end hockey players, a lot of them think they can do no wrong. But that comes from their HOME.

My oldest goes to school with a bunch of kids who have been double AA since U 11. They are in grade 7. Most of these kids aren't going to Hockey Canada tournaments yet. So where do you think the attitude they already have, some of them have without doing anything with Hockey Canada yet, came from?

If it's so indoctrinated into these kids because of Hockey Canada, and they in whatever way let these kids know there are no rules or laws, do what you want, it's expected, how come it doesn't happen every year? I got 2 boys. It's my job as their dad to turn my boys into men. If my boys don't know how to respect women when they get older, that's on me. I'm not pointing the finger at their hockey coaches or the hockey association and saying it's their fault. If my boys start to become cocky little craps who think they can do whatever they want, then it's on me to correct that, not their hockey coach.

I am not disagreeing with the premise it comes from the home, but I am adding that it is either ignored or glorified as they get older by the many people involved in Hockey Canada, or at the very least the old regime that ran the show.

Role model good values, respect and kindness and the chances your kid becomes a criminal lessens by nth degree. Poor role modelling can still be salvaged by a positive influence, ie coach, teacher, friends, friends family. Poor role modelling in addition to a system that turns a blind eye to poor behaviour is where we are today.

It sounds like your boys have the proper home life and quality coaching. Good for them, but that is not a 100% across the board. Hockey Canada has to do a better job at vetting.

I just struggle with the idea that it's someone else's job to raise a persons kids.

I agree that coaches and teachers like it or not are role models. But how far should we expect these guys to go and how much do we expect them to do is the question. The kids on the WJC team are what, 18, 19, 20? These coaches get appointed based on performance primarily. These coaches meet/work with these kids for what 2 months? (i don't know how long the total time is for their training camp & tournament, so someone can correct me if 2 months isn't right). But regardless, it's not a long time. So when a 19 yr old comes onto the WJC team under Hockey Canada and there is a few of them (because it's not all of them that do this) who don't have the right attitude based on how they were raised or whatever else happened, the expectation is in the 2 months they are around coach X, he fixes 18, 19, 20 yrs of raising?

I am not trying to argue with you, I just don't think it's realistic to expect a hockey association to fix some bad kids. Could they help? Maybe but in my opinion, if you are Ok to sexually assault a girl, you got issues way beyond hockey.

Hockey should not fix kids. Sports should not fix kids.

Hockey should exasperate the issues. Sports should not exasperate the issues. I am not singling out the hockey Canada coaches or anyone one coach. The whole thing is rotten, or at least it was and they are trying to re-establish new ways now. Hockey in my era was horrible. Hockey in the following era was not much better, but it was better. I think we are trending in the right direction, but the people in charge of hockey Canada hold some accountability and have forever had players on their teams that were there because of talent and talent alone.

The system is broken like most sports. As long as there is extreme wealth at the end of the rainbow, the culture will hard to change. No need to look any further than any of the other major sports.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829430 is a reply to message #829423 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 12:04

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 13:28

I just struggle with the idea that it's someone else's job to raise a persons kids.

Even in "normal" circumstances, how a kid turns out is not 100% on the parents (good or bad). In most normal cases they would certainly be the overwhelming influence, but you'll always see siblings turning out very different from one another while being raised by the same parents. confused2

confused2

And I say "normal", because for a lot of these superstar hockey kids (most I think), they are away from home for most of the year as early as 13 years old. All through their teenage years they spend way more time away from their parents than with them.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829432 is a reply to message #829430 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 12:24

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 12:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 13:28

I just struggle with the idea that it's someone else's job to raise a persons kids.

Even in "normal" circumstances, how a kid turns out is not 100% on the parents (good or bad). In most normal cases they would certainly be the overwhelming influence, but you'll always see siblings turning out very different from one another while being raised by the same parents. confused2

confused2

And I say "normal", because for a lot of these superstar hockey kids (most I think), they are away from home for most of the year as early as 13 years old. All through their teenage years they spend way more time away from their parents than with them.

Do not get me started with billets. So many do it for the wrong reasons. A belief that it gives them some kind of status or clout. Free tickets. Live vicariously through the athlete.

That being said I know more good billets than bad, but that is a great example of how a stranger is impacting your child's development.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829433 is a reply to message #829432 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 12:39

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 15:24

Mike wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 12:04

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 13:28

I just struggle with the idea that it's someone else's job to raise a persons kids.

Even in "normal" circumstances, how a kid turns out is not 100% on the parents (good or bad). In most normal cases they would certainly be the overwhelming influence, but you'll always see siblings turning out very different from one another while being raised by the same parents. confused2

confused2

And I say "normal", because for a lot of these superstar hockey kids (most I think), they are away from home for most of the year as early as 13 years old. All through their teenage years they spend way more time away from their parents than with them.

Do not get me started with billets. So many do it for the wrong reasons. A belief that it gives them some kind of status or clout. Free tickets. Live vicariously through the athlete.

That being said I know more good billets than bad, but that is a great example of how a stranger is impacting your child's development.

Yup - know exactly what you mean. We've always had a few in our neighbourhood. I would say some are in better hands than others.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829404 is a reply to message #829402 ]	Mon, 05 February 2024 16:39

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Perkele wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

I think most of those millions were given to victims of sick coaches. Mostly victims of Graham James. Do agree though, trying to settle things on behalf of players to try to not sully a gold medal is pretty bad. That's kinda like what Chicago did. Only Chicago is far worse because they knew the abuse was happening before the season was over, and were actively trying to kill any info from coming out so it wouldn't interfere with a cup run in progress. And that is just outright trying to make it all vanish with zero consequences (and even just denial of any wrongdoing years later), while Hockey Canada was trying to compensate the victim or victims.

Personally, I do think it's good that this proactive offerings of money to put the issue to rest ends. Seems that precedent was created by Graham James and other gross things in the past. Not it it supposed to be done with, which is good. If any of these kids thought that they could get away with stuff because Hockey Canada would protect them, hope that is done with. Although, it sounds like Hockey Canada was could not force any victim to not reject a settlement and attempt charges. Regardless, option gone, for the better.

Honestly, if you're gonna play for Team Canada as a kid, with everything paid for, and being given a massive opportunity to boost your stock for the NHL and potentially make millions, I do think there should be some serious oversight of the players off the ice. It's inevitable that some a-hole jocks or a group of them will be coming through. Spare us all the embarrassment of kids doing total garbage on Canada's dime. We're giving these guys more than enough that they can be forced to behave. Go be a scumbag when you're back home.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829411 is a reply to message #829404 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 08:37

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 16:39

Perkele wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

I think most of those millions were given to victims of sick coaches. Mostly victims of Graham James. Do agree though, trying to settle things on behalf of players to try to not sully a gold medal is pretty bad. That's kinda like what Chicago did. Only Chicago is far worse because they knew the abuse was happening before the season was over, and were actively trying to kill any info from coming out so it wouldn't interfere with a cup run in progress. And that is just outright trying to make it all vanish with zero consequences (and even just denial of any wrongdoing years later), while Hockey Canada was trying to compensate the victim or victims.

Personally, I do think it's good that this proactive offerings of money to put the issue to rest ends. Seems that precedent was created by Graham James and other gross things in the past. Not it it supposed to be done with, which is good. If any of these kids thought that they could get away with stuff because Hockey Canada would protect them, hope that is done with. Although, it sounds like Hockey Canada was could not force any victim to not reject a settlement and attempt charges. Regardless, option gone, for the better.

Honestly, if you're gonna play for Team Canada as a kid, with everything paid for, and being given a massive opportunity to boost your stock for the NHL and potentially make millions, I do think there should be some serious oversight of the players off the ice. It's inevitable that some a-hole jocks or a group of them will be coming through. Spare us all the embarrassment of kids doing total garbage on Canada's dime. We're giving these guys more than enough that they can be forced to behave. Go be a scumbag when you're back home.

Or don't be a scum bag.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829412 is a reply to message #829411 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 08:44

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:37

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 16:39

Perkele wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

I think most of those millions were given to victims of sick coaches. Mostly victims of Graham James. Do agree though, trying to settle things on behalf of players to try to not sully a gold medal is pretty bad. That's kinda like what Chicago did. Only Chicago is far worse because they knew the abuse was happening before the season was over, and were actively trying to kill any info from coming out so it wouldn't interfere with a cup run in progress. And that is just outright trying to make it all vanish with zero consequences (and even just denial of any wrongdoing years later), while Hockey Canada was trying to compensate the victim or victims.

Personally, I do think it's good that this proactive offerings of money to put the issue to rest ends. Seems that precedent was created by Graham James and other gross things in the past. Not it it supposed to be done with, which is good. If any of these kids thought that they could get away with stuff because Hockey Canada would protect them, hope that is done with. Although, it sounds like Hockey Canada was could not force any victim to not reject a settlement and attempt charges. Regardless, option gone, for the better.

Honestly, if you're gonna play for Team Canada as a kid, with everything paid for, and being given a massive opportunity to boost your stock for the NHL and potentially make millions, I do think there should be some serious oversight of the players off the ice. It's inevitable that some a-hole jocks or a group of them will be coming through. Spare us all the embarrassment of kids doing total garbage on Canada's dime. We're giving these guys more than enough that they can be forced to behave. Go be a scumbag when you're back home.

Or don't be a scum bag.

Always an option!

But, think all of human history shows there will always be scumbags. And it also just happens that some of them are damn good at hockey :). And hard to proactively weed out the scum, especially when they are still kids. Unless we expand our talent scouting to also include under cover investigators and/or psychological testing and personality profiling.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 February 2024 08:46]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829415 is a reply to message #829412 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 08:52

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:44

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 06 February 2024 08:37

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 16:39

Perkele wrote on Mon, 05 February 2024 14:42

Maybe hockey Canada shouldn't have a slush fund of millions of dollars that it keeps for the purpose of settling sexual assault allegations. Actually having internal consequences for anyone who is found guilty (or even accused of) sexaul assault, like not being selected to represent Hockey Canada as a player, coach, bus driver etc...

There are lots of things that Hockey Canada could do to try to help with this problem. It won't solve sexual assaults (noone expects hockey canada to do that) but it would do a very good job of reducing the problem for players associated the Hockey Canada.

I think most of those millions were given to victims of sick coaches. Mostly victims of Graham James. Do agree though, trying to settle things on behalf of players to try to not sully a gold medal is pretty bad. That's kinda like what Chicago did. Only Chicago is far worse because they knew the abuse was happening before the season was over, and were actively trying to kill any info from coming out so it wouldn't interfere with a cup run in progress. And that is just outright trying to make it all vanish with zero consequences (and even just denial of any wrongdoing years later), while Hockey Canada was trying to compensate the victim or victims.

Personally, I do think it's good that this proactive offerings of money to put the issue to rest ends. Seems that precedent was created by Graham James and other gross things in the past. Not it it supposed to be done with, which is good. If any of these kids thought that they could get away with stuff because Hockey Canada would protect them, hope that is done with. Although, it sounds like Hockey Canada was could not force any victim to not reject a settlement and attempt charges. Regardless, option gone, for the better.

Honestly, if you're gonna play for Team Canada as a kid, with everything paid for, and being given a massive opportunity to boost your stock for the NHL and potentially make millions, I do think there should be some serious oversight of the players off the ice. It's inevitable that some a-hole jocks or a group of them will be coming through. Spare us all the embarrassment of kids doing total garbage on Canada's dime. We're giving these guys more than enough that they can be forced to behave. Go be a scumbag when you're back home.

Or don't be a scum bag.

Always an option!

But, think all of human history shows there will always be scumbags. And it also just happens that some of them are damn good at hockey :). And hard to proactively weed out the scum, especially when they are still kids. Unless we expand our talent scouting to also include under cover investigators and/or psychological testing and personality profiling.

For the amount of money they generate, maybe a thorough psychological exam and some investigating into the kids current lifestyle choices could be an option. I know they do not interview the player's teachers, but that could be a start. How they conduct themselves in school likely correlates to their level of maturity off-ice.

At least it's something proactive.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829374 is a reply to message #829371 ]	Fri, 02 February 2024 15:02

Suomalainen
Messages: 900
Registered: May 2002
Location: Boulder, CO

No Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2024 13:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 01 February 2024 17:16

Maybe I am missing something but what changes have to be made to try and prevent this? This isn't me sticking up for Hockey Canada, they got issues. But these guys are dirt bags. How does hockey stop people from being a dirt bag?

When you're factoring in 2003, 2018, and other rumblings of Hockey Canada paying off other victims, it's easy to sense that "some" (not all obviously) see this coerced group activity as just somewhat of a harmless ritualistic prank that gets passed on for generations on an "inside" rite of passage bonding level.

The law & media obviously have to make an example of the 2018 guys in that hotel room in order for the hockey community to realize that this is NOT ok....for the sake of future victims obviously AND future players risking their livelihoods over a ridiculous inside practice.

Edit: TSN is now saying there were 8 guys in the room...wonder who the other 3 were as they would be subpoenaed in the courts having to testify in 2025/2026 whenever the actual trial takes place.

Although he wasn't at the helm at the time, I'd also have to think part of that culture, as well as the payout slush fund was started/continued under the stewardship of the erstwhile Bobby Nicks....

97.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829417 is a reply to message #829374 ]	Tue, 06 February 2024 09:22

mazankowski
Messages: 27
Registered: June 2006
Location: Kelowna BC

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As we understand the facts, it is clear that the 5 members had sexual intercourse with the complainant. One of the members had consensual sex with her first. But consent will be the main issue here for both the Crown and the Defendants.

Firstly, the evidence will support that she had alcohol that evening but it is unclear whether she lacked the capacity to form any consent. By the agreed statement of fact (as we understand) she did consent to sex with the first member at that time of arriving at the hotel. So when does that intoxication get to a point where she no longer has the capacity to consent? So I see a real uphill battle for the Crown in establishing that she was intoxicated and therefore lacked the capacity to consent to the sexual acts.

Further, we know that two separate videos have been disclosed. They both show the complainant in the hotel room, advising that she consented to the acts. However, we don't know the circumstances under which those videos were taken. Was she under duress? Was she scared and saying anything to get out of there? Or was she being truthful? Had her understanding of what happened changed the following day when she told her friend about what happened (who reported it to the LPD)? If it's the latter, you can't simply consent after the fact or withdraw that consent later when you realize that you didn't say no at the time.

Again, this case will inevitably come down to consent and it's unfortunate that accused individuals get away on that very thin margin but at the same time, I think it has also assisted individuals who are truly innocent with getting acquitted.

It's a sad situation and I truly hope justice is served one way or another. But in my opinion, I think the Crown has an uphill battle here given the facts we currently know and I feel for the complainant as she's going to villainized by the Defence and the public who simply is blinded by these guys being pro hockey players.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829532 is a reply to message #829296 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 10:31

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Hockey Canada could have done a lot more to try and prevent this from happening. They could have told their athletes something like "Upstanding behavior is a requirement to be involved in Hockey Canada in any capacity. Any athletes who engages in criminal or morally reprehensible behaviour will be investigated, and if HC finds offense, we will report you to police and publicly ban you from all future participation with the organization".

That's just an example. Most organizations have some sort of policy like this in place to deter bad behaviour.

Instead they have a history of sweeping things under the rug and protecting their bad players. That sort of thing encourages bad behaviour, instead of deterring it. The players are ultimately accountable of course, but to say HC did everything they could is not accurate.

I disagree that it's all on the parents. Everyone's environment is different and parents are not around 100% of the time. I have seen really good parents with kids who have gone down the wrong path. It doesn't make them bad parents. The other way, there are also kids with a terrible home life who turn into decent people (it's really hard but it happens).

'It takes a village to raise a child' is an old saying for a reason. We all need to do our part. One can argue that the Village is way too big these days to function properly, but that's another discussion.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829534 is a reply to message #829532 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 11:02

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 10:31

Hockey Canada could have done a lot more to try and prevent this from happening. They could have told their athletes something like "Upstanding behavior is a requirement to be involved in Hockey Canada in any capacity. Any athletes who engages in criminal or morally reprehensible behaviour will be investigated, and if HC finds offense, we will report you to police and publicly ban you from all future participation with the organization".

That's just an example. Most organizations have some sort of policy like this in place to deter bad behaviour.

Instead they have a history of sweeping things under the rug and protecting their bad players. That sort of thing encourages bad behaviour, instead of deterring it. The players are ultimately accountable of course, but to say HC did everything they could is not accurate.

I disagree that it's all on the parents. Everyone's environment is different and parents are not around 100% of the time. I have seen really good parents with kids who have gone down the wrong path. It doesn't make them bad parents. The other way, there are also kids with a terrible home life who turn into decent people (it's really hard but it happens).

'It takes a village to raise a child' is an old saying for a reason. We all need to do our part. One can argue that the Village is way too big these days to function properly, but that's another discussion.

Hockey Canada certainly did have policies in place long before the 2018 team was playing. The thing is policy doesn't actually do a great job of regulating behavior. I found the 10-11 HC policy manual which is a pretty interesting read. Its focus, in these policies, is very much on Graham James issue that was exploding at the time.

https://www.hockeynl.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/policy_pr ocedures_manual_july_2010_e1.pdf

On an semi-related note, I think I can add Theo Fleury to my list of hockey regrets. My dislike of him exceeded what was warranted for even a Flames player. I took delight in leading Rexall cheers against him when he played for the Rags and watching him mentally struggle. Don't get me wrong, I still wish his name wasn't on the Cup. Only because it's under the Calgary Flames, not because I dislike him as a person.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829535 is a reply to message #829534 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 11:30

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 10:02

Steve wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 10:31

Hockey Canada could have done a lot more to try and prevent this from happening. They could have told their athletes something like "Upstanding behavior is a requirement to be involved in Hockey Canada in any capacity. Any athletes who engages in criminal or morally reprehensible behaviour will be investigated, and if HC finds offense, we will report you to police and publicly ban you from all future participation with the organization".

That's just an example. Most organizations have some sort of policy like this in place to deter bad behaviour.

Instead they have a history of sweeping things under the rug and protecting their bad players. That sort of thing encourages bad behaviour, instead of deterring it. The players are ultimately accountable of course, but to say HC did everything they could is not accurate.

I disagree that it's all on the parents. Everyone's environment is different and parents are not around 100% of the time. I have seen really good parents with kids who have gone down the wrong path. It doesn't make them bad parents. The other way, there are also kids with a terrible home life who turn into decent people (it's really hard but it happens).

'It takes a village to raise a child' is an old saying for a reason. We all need to do our part. One can argue that the Village is way too big these days to function properly, but that's another discussion.

Hockey Canada certainly did have policies in place long before the 2018 team was playing. The thing is policy doesn't actually do a great job of regulating behavior. I found the 10-11 HC policy manual which is a pretty interesting read. Its focus, in these policies, is very much on Graham James issue that was exploding at the time.

https://www.hockeynl.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/policy_pr ocedures_manual_july_2010_e1.pdf

On an semi-related note, I think I can add Theo Fleury to my list of hockey regrets. My dislike of him exceeded what was warranted for even a Flames player. I took delight in leading Rexall cheers against him when he played for the Rags and watching him mentally struggle. Don't get me wrong, I still wish his name wasn't on the Cup. Only because it's under the Calgary Flames, not because I dislike him as a person.

Good find. Communication of the policy, and proving it through actions, is also key. It needs to be worth more than the paper it is written on.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829537 is a reply to message #829535 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 13:38

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 11:30

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 10:02

Steve wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 10:31

Hockey Canada could have done a lot more to try and prevent this from happening. They could have told their athletes something like "Upstanding behavior is a requirement to be involved in Hockey Canada in any capacity. Any athletes who engages in criminal or morally reprehensible behaviour will be investigated, and if HC finds offense, we will report you to police and publicly ban you from all future participation with the organization".

That's just an example. Most organizations have some sort of policy like this in place to deter bad behaviour.

Instead they have a history of sweeping things under the rug and protecting their bad players. That sort of thing encourages bad behaviour, instead of deterring it. The players are ultimately accountable of course, but to say HC did everything they could is not accurate.

I disagree that it's all on the parents. Everyone's environment is different and parents are not around 100% of the time. I have seen really good parents with kids who have gone down the wrong path. It doesn't make them bad parents. The other way, there are also kids with a terrible home life who turn into decent people (it's really hard but it happens).

'It takes a village to raise a child' is an old saying for a reason. We all need to do our part. One can argue that the Village is way too big these days to function properly, but that's another discussion.

Hockey Canada certainly did have policies in place long before the 2018 team was playing. The thing is policy doesn't actually do a great job of regulating behavior. I found the 10-11 HC policy manual which is a pretty interesting read. Its focus, in these policies, is very much on Graham James issue that was exploding at the time.

https://www.hockeynl.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/policy_pr ocedures_manual_july_2010_e1.pdf

On an semi-related note, I think I can add Theo Fleury to my list of hockey regrets. My dislike of him exceeded what was warranted for even a Flames player. I took delight in leading Rexall cheers against him when he played for the Rags and watching him mentally struggle. Don't get me wrong, I still wish his name wasn't on the Cup. Only because it's under the Calgary Flames, not because I dislike him as a person.

Good find. Communication of the policy, and proving it through actions, is also key. It needs to be worth more than the paper it is written on.

I feel like we're way out in the weeds here. Team Canada was scrutinized a year ago at the parliamentary hearings, but it's not really them on trial now. If anything, it's probably good for Team Canada that people have been named and they can now move past this. It's certainly good for a future Olympic team, since previously anyone who was on that team was banned from participation. Now, we're at least limiting that ban to those specifically charged I'm assuming.

Employers are shown to have all kinds of obligations at events put on by them. If your company holds a party and someone drives home drunk from it and kills someone, then the organization can be liable in some situations. I think that this isn't far off that. And certainly setting up boys-will-be-boys slush funds is a bad look.

All in all, Team Canada's been chastened badly and won't likely look away again any time soon. Their name has been in the mud and they lost millions in sponsorship dollars.

Now we can move on to the individuals and their own legal issues. I'm sad to say, I am not confident of any convictions. They're all going to be well-represented by very good lawyers, and sexual assaults are very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. In the absence of convictions, it won't surprise me at all if these players all get NHL jobs again relatively quickly depressing as that is. I mean, if an absolute borderline NHLer in Jake Virtanen gets a try-out, then hard to see Carter Hart not getting a contract if he's available to play.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829540 is a reply to message #829537 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 14:15

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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"hard to see Carter Hart not getting a contract *FROM THE OIELRS* if he's available to play."

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Re: WJC 2018 Scandal [message #829541 is a reply to message #829537 ]	Thu, 08 February 2024 14:26

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 08 February 2024 13:38

Now we can move on to the individuals and their own legal issues. I'm sad to say, I am not confident of any convictions. They're all going to be well-represented by very good lawyers, and sexual assaults are very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. In the absence of convictions, it won't surprise me at all if these players all get NHL jobs again relatively quickly depressing as that is. I mean, if an absolute borderline NHLer in Jake Virtanen gets a try-out, then hard to see Carter Hart not getting a contract if he's available to play.

Reasonable doubt, not beyond a shadow of a doubt, is a very important part of our justice system. As someone who 'gets' to represent people that are in trouble it's hard to express how disheartening the retreat from assumed innocence is and how many people object to people even defending themselves.

If the players are found not guilty there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to play again. I do understand why people would have a somewhat jaded view of justice in Canada. It is failing everyone right now. Still, if we're not going to leap to vigilantism and (further into) extrajudicial punishment innocent until proven guilty is a good concept to hold.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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