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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827775 is a reply to message #827695 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 00:20

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 13:00

I get to deal with a ton of performance issues at work. It's my least favorite part of what I do and most of the time the best solution is to get the person a different supervisor. Once that worker / boss relationship is fractured it rarely recovers. If your company gave clear instructions, timely feedback, opportunity to improve, realistic goals, and proper training and the guy just didn't get it... by all means move on. Sometimes the pieces just don't fit.

But that's not what we're talking about. That would be moving the guy up and down the lineup based on merit and giving extra attention in practice and the film room. The real life workplace equivalent to benching is 'stay home tomorrow and really think about if you want to keep this job'. I've never seen that be used successfully except in safety situations as a last chance mechanism. I can't imagine Kuzmenko is on his last chance.

Hard to compare this to a young intern who just doesn’t get it and isn’t able to do the job too. This guy was probably the 4th or 5th best player on the Canucks last year. It would be pretty unusual in a work setting to have that little patience with someone who was just considered a top performer unless something really significant had changed. Think drinking on the job as opposed to a little slump in performance.

You do see players, in essence, fired from their jobs for lack of performance. It tends to happen to those at the bottom of the roster. If you are, to use an old Oilers example, JF Jacques and you have played ~60 games without getting a point then benchings have been well warranted because the team often has 12 forwards better than you and when you’re sent away to the minors or dealt to another team who thinks the size and speed should translate still - that’s the hockey equivalent of termination. Good teams don’t fire their top players.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827804 is a reply to message #827775 ]	Thu, 30 November 2023 10:01

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 776
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Location: edmonton

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Would you even consider that 'benching' or would you consider that 'someone else earned that spot over JF?'

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827683 is a reply to message #827679 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 11:31

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
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Location: AB Highway 100

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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 10:55

So you think that's wrong to sit him out after you have exhausted other things and your idea is to keep talking to him, keep playing him and hope he decides to play how you need him too. Kuzmenko is not a rookie making kid mistakes, he's going to be 28 yrs old. He's a grown man making his own decisions and deciding he doesn't wnat to do what he's told. So what happens when he doesn't change?

I told you. He becomes a third liner making too much money or loses his job. Now, what do you hope to accomplish by benching someone for two games and what happens if that hope isn't accomplished? Bag skate?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827685 is a reply to message #827683 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 11:40

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 11:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 10:55

So you think that's wrong to sit him out after you have exhausted other things and your idea is to keep talking to him, keep playing him and hope he decides to play how you need him too. Kuzmenko is not a rookie making kid mistakes, he's going to be 28 yrs old. He's a grown man making his own decisions and deciding he doesn't wnat to do what he's told. So what happens when he doesn't change?

I told you. He becomes a third liner making too much money or loses his job. Now, what do you hope to accomplish by benching someone for two games and what happens if that hope isn't accomplished? Bag skate?

This isn't like normal life where if a guy isn't doing his job, you can just fire him. The NHL has signed, guaranteed contracts. They need guys to do their job. If they don't, then you have to find a way to get that player to do what you need, otherwise you are screwed.

Like I keep saying. I am not advocating to bench guys or scratch them when they make a mistake. That is the last resort but when you have exhausted all other avenues, you have to do something else. I get we will never agree because I think doing the same thing over and over again when it's not working is stupidity. If you have tried the same approach with a player over and over again and it doesn't work every time, expecting it to suddenly work is insane to me. If he wanted to change, he would have changed. He doesn't want to change, so you have to try something else. If that doesn't work, then you are either screwed or you have to go even more drastic which will hurt your team even more.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827687 is a reply to message #827685 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 11:49

smyth260
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Registered: November 2007

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Has Tocchet exhausted all avenues just 20 games into the season?

Clean house or bust

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827688 is a reply to message #827687 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 11:52

Dragon_Matt
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yes.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827689 is a reply to message #827687 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 11:53

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 11:49

Has Tocchet exhausted all avenues just 20 games into the season?

Camp started early September. So it's 3months in. I can't imagine how many conversations he or his coaching staff had either on the bench, in practice, in the locker room or private meetings. It wouldn't shock me if the GM hasn't had a chat or 2 considering he is the one that gave him 5.5 mill and he is the one that has to deal with 5.5 mill sitting in the pressbox. So I doubt Tocchet was allowed to sit him without the GM knowing and giving him the blessing feeling they tried everything else.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 November 2023 11:55]

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827690 is a reply to message #827689 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

smyth260
Messages: 1087
Registered: November 2007

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Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

Clean house or bust

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827694 is a reply to message #827690 ]	Tue, 28 November 2023 12:55

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
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Location: AB Highway 100

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smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

Depends what the problem is. If he's not performing to expectations in his positioning, reads, and technical skills it warrants corrective action from the coaches. I don't want to believe he's being benched for simply not scoring enough because of all the obvious reasons you brought up... but that mindset still exists.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827773 is a reply to message #827694 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 00:11

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:55

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

Depends what the problem is. If he's not performing to expectations in his positioning, reads, and technical skills it warrants corrective action from the coaches. I don't want to believe he's being benched for simply not scoring enough because of all the obvious reasons you brought up... but that mindset still exists.

Doesn’t it seem funny to anyone that in the first quarter season, Rick Tocchet has had to publicly bench one of his top players in JT Miller and bench one of his top goal scorers in Kuzmenko? I mean, one possibility is that he just is at his wit’s end with these players who are constantly letting him down, but the Canucks are actually outperforming expectations with a hot start. The more simple solution is that you have a coach who wants to be seen as the story and the reason for the team’s success as opposed to giving credit to the star players who have come out flying.

If the Kuzmenko thing was a one-off, then I think maybe there could be some additional factors we are missing. But taken alongside the Miller benching, it just looks like fame-seeking by the coach - look what a tough guy he is, willing to make even his top players pay such a high price for underperforming.

The fact is, he’s hurting his team’s chances of winning with these stunts unless he actually believes that Kuzmenko isn’t in the top 12 forward options for him, or Miller in his top-9 options when he shortened his bench. The argument he’d likely make is that he is hurting his team’s chances in one game in order to make the player better long term but there’s no science to support that. If anything, what we’ve seen from more high profile incidents of embarrassing players, especially multiple players, is that it leads to trade requests and reduces the chance of successfully re-signing good players.

It does tend to get the coach positive press though and fans love the hardass coach motif - especially where he sticks it to the overpaid primadonna player, all but publicly calling him lazy and entitled. I’m sure this’ll play well in Vancouver in the short run, even as it erodes player-coach trust inside the room and shortens the shelf life for Tocchet in Vancouver.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827781 is a reply to message #827690 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 09:08

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

It's got nothing to do with his shooting percentage.

https://canucksarmy.com/news/jeff-paterson-andrei-kuzmenkos- absence-performance-more-canucks-news-conversation

https://thecanuckway.com/2023/11/27/report-vancouver-canucks -rick-tocchet-andrei-kuzmenko-not-seeing-eye-eye/

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ canucks-the-band-is-back-together-but-will-andrei-kuzmenko-m ake-sweet-music

“When the puck is out in the neutral zone, you’ve got to hustle back to be an option,” stressed Tocchet. “Be a middle-drive guy and with pucks around the wall — you’ve got to get them out. Those are the little things I value around here. It’s not just about scoring goals.

“If you’re not scoring, that’s fine. Scorers are going to go through slumps. Little things matter, and he understand that’s the bible for us. They’re very important. And when we play slow, we’re not a very good team.”

What an archaic way of thinking by Tocchet. Wanting players to hustle. Being harder on pucks and getting them out of your zone so it doesn't result in offensive chances against. Wanting his players to move the puck and play fast and having a team standard.

How dare he have expectations of his players! What a dinosaur!!!

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827782 is a reply to message #827781 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 09:22

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 09:08

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

It's got nothing to do with his shooting percentage.

https://canucksarmy.com/news/jeff-paterson-andrei-kuzmenkos- absence-performance-more-canucks-news-conversation

https://thecanuckway.com/2023/11/27/report-vancouver-canucks -rick-tocchet-andrei-kuzmenko-not-seeing-eye-eye/

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ canucks-the-band-is-back-together-but-will-andrei-kuzmenko-m ake-sweet-music

“When the puck is out in the neutral zone, you’ve got to hustle back to be an option,” stressed Tocchet. “Be a middle-drive guy and with pucks around the wall — you’ve got to get them out. Those are the little things I value around here. It’s not just about scoring goals.

“If you’re not scoring, that’s fine. Scorers are going to go through slumps. Little things matter, and he understand that’s the bible for us. They’re very important. And when we play slow, we’re not a very good team.”

What an archaic way of thinking by Tocchet. Wanting players to hustle. Being harder on pucks and getting them out of your zone so it doesn't result in offensive chances against. Wanting his players to move the puck and play fast and having a team standard.

How dare he have expectations of his players! What a dinosaur!!!

Ah, I see the problem here. You're misunderstanding the question at hand. There is nothing wrong with having expectations, wanting players to hustle and to be harder on pucks. That's not archaic thinking. I have to imagine we would all want our players to do those things. What we're talking about is how to get the things we value.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827798 is a reply to message #827782 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 20:26

inverno76
Messages: 2353
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 09:22

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 09:08

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

It's got nothing to do with his shooting percentage.

https://canucksarmy.com/news/jeff-paterson-andrei-kuzmenkos- absence-performance-more-canucks-news-conversation

https://thecanuckway.com/2023/11/27/report-vancouver-canucks -rick-tocchet-andrei-kuzmenko-not-seeing-eye-eye/

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ canucks-the-band-is-back-together-but-will-andrei-kuzmenko-m ake-sweet-music

“When the puck is out in the neutral zone, you’ve got to hustle back to be an option,” stressed Tocchet. “Be a middle-drive guy and with pucks around the wall — you’ve got to get them out. Those are the little things I value around here. It’s not just about scoring goals.

“If you’re not scoring, that’s fine. Scorers are going to go through slumps. Little things matter, and he understand that’s the bible for us. They’re very important. And when we play slow, we’re not a very good team.”

What an archaic way of thinking by Tocchet. Wanting players to hustle. Being harder on pucks and getting them out of your zone so it doesn't result in offensive chances against. Wanting his players to move the puck and play fast and having a team standard.

How dare he have expectations of his players! What a dinosaur!!!

Ah, I see the problem here. You're misunderstanding the question at hand. There is nothing wrong with having expectations, wanting players to hustle and to be harder on pucks. That's not archaic thinking. I have to imagine we would all want our players to do those things. What we're talking about is how to get the things we value.

Truth. The ‘how’ is locked in the struggling player and that’s why we are seeing coaches being more like Woodcroft over the Gallant’s these days. Building relationships, being in tune with the player and providing multiple supports is what creates long-term success.

Jon Cooper has benched players with success, and I guarantee he knew that the player would react best to that tactic.

Also of note, benching a player as a situational event has merit. Like Hubredeau. He was struggling but the coach recognized the team was flying and Hubie was bringing them down. Benching was merited in that moment, but the benching did not help or fix the player.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827807 is a reply to message #827798 ]	Thu, 30 November 2023 10:10

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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inverno76 wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 20:26

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 09:22

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 29 November 2023 09:08

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 12:11

Kuzemenko shot a whopping 27.3% last year. That is the highest in the entire NHL last year for anybody with half a season played. If there is any player you could bet on for regression, it is Andre Kuzmenko.

Took me all of 2 minutes to find a pretty good explanation why the guy isn’t scoring as much. Maybe there is nothing to manage here and the coach just needs to understand some math.

I can’t speak to his defense, but Kuzmenko looks like a player who is having an entirely predictable regression in shooting percentage while actually increasing his assist rate.

It's got nothing to do with his shooting percentage.

https://canucksarmy.com/news/jeff-paterson-andrei-kuzmenkos- absence-performance-more-canucks-news-conversation

https://thecanuckway.com/2023/11/27/report-vancouver-canucks -rick-tocchet-andrei-kuzmenko-not-seeing-eye-eye/

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ canucks-the-band-is-back-together-but-will-andrei-kuzmenko-m ake-sweet-music

“When the puck is out in the neutral zone, you’ve got to hustle back to be an option,” stressed Tocchet. “Be a middle-drive guy and with pucks around the wall — you’ve got to get them out. Those are the little things I value around here. It’s not just about scoring goals.

“If you’re not scoring, that’s fine. Scorers are going to go through slumps. Little things matter, and he understand that’s the bible for us. They’re very important. And when we play slow, we’re not a very good team.”

What an archaic way of thinking by Tocchet. Wanting players to hustle. Being harder on pucks and getting them out of your zone so it doesn't result in offensive chances against. Wanting his players to move the puck and play fast and having a team standard.

How dare he have expectations of his players! What a dinosaur!!!

Ah, I see the problem here. You're misunderstanding the question at hand. There is nothing wrong with having expectations, wanting players to hustle and to be harder on pucks. That's not archaic thinking. I have to imagine we would all want our players to do those things. What we're talking about is how to get the things we value.

Truth. The ‘how’ is locked in the struggling player and that’s why we are seeing coaches being more like Woodcroft over the Gallant’s these days. Building relationships, being in tune with the player and providing multiple supports is what creates long-term success.

Jon Cooper has benched players with success, and I guarantee he knew that the player would react best to that tactic.

Also of note, benching a player as a situational event has merit. Like Hubredeau. He was struggling but the coach recognized the team was flying and Hubie was bringing them down. Benching was merited in that moment, but the benching did not help or fix the player.

I'm not saying a player should never be benched, made to site for a shift, or be sent to the pressbox. It's definitely a tool in the coach's toolbox. What I reject is a doing it to prove a point or as an emotional reaction or as a punishment. It needs to be accompanied with a plan to achieve a specific goal.

No one has suggested it, but sending McLeod to the pressbox because he doesn't drive the net and score enough would be impossibly stupid. Sending him to the pressbox because another center has beat him for the job would be totally fine. But as long as he remains the best option for the job he's doing, he should be doing it for the vast vast majority of the time.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827797 is a reply to message #827685 ]	Wed, 29 November 2023 20:15

inverno76
Messages: 2353
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Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

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My question to a player or employee who was once capable of doing their job at ahigh level, but is now struggling would be “what’s changed?”

The carrot and stick, leading through fear only causes uncertainty and will have an opposite desired reaction on the struggling person. When you threaten someone’s security or status it triggers their flight/fight/fawn/freeze response. The benching or carrot works for a very select few, and we witness more failures than successes with that tactic.

If you had a person on your team that was under performing from the start then that’s a poor management decision on that talent acquisition and I’d invest more in to talent procurement. Long story short, if your employee is underperforming there is normally a reason and the organization should be working with the person asking important questions. If your employee is flat out garbage and you need to move on then it’s was a poor management decision to bring them on your team.

If anyone is looking for a contract conflict consultant I can be made available for a price. icon_wink

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[Updated on: Wed, 29 November 2023 20:18]

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827805 is a reply to message #827797 ]	Thu, 30 November 2023 10:03

Dragon_Matt
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How much would you charge to have the 'tough' conversation with Holland?

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827861 is a reply to message #827805 ]	Fri, 01 December 2023 10:39

inverno76
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 30 November 2023 10:03

How much would you charge to have the 'tough' conversation with Holland?

I would love to have some discussions with the Oilers 'Leadership" group. Aside from Jackson, I do not think there are too many people with high emotional intelligences in that group.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827862 is a reply to message #827861 ]	Fri, 01 December 2023 10:53

smyth260
Messages: 1087
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

I think there would be a lot of egos in that leadership group.

I find the smartest people are the ones that will tell you “I don’t know” when they don’t know something, but willing to learn. They should be able to know all their mistakes and tell you exactly why it was a mistake.

I think you’d just get a lot of “I’ve been around the game for a long time” if I asked Holland and company about their mistakes.

Clean house or bust

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827848 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Thu, 30 November 2023 21:06

Kr55
Messages: 10866
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Pretty dismal return for Zadorov by Conroy. Traded to the Canucks.

Give a division rival a decent dman for a 5th in 2024 and 3rd in 2026.

Can't be too angry, McDavid loves to turn Zadorov into a pylon. Maybe will be helpful to us against the Canucks.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827849 is a reply to message #827848 ]	Thu, 30 November 2023 21:25

NetBOG
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 30 November 2023 21:06

Pretty dismal return for Zadorov by Conroy. Traded to the Canucks.

Give a division rival a decent dman for a 5th in 2024 and 3rd in 2026.

Can't be too angry, McDavid loves to turn Zadorov into a pylon. Maybe will be helpful to us against the Canucks.

Meh, got 2.5 seasons out of him and sold him for more than they bought him for. That's generally a win. Plus it's a fairly big salary dump.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827859 is a reply to message #827848 ]	Fri, 01 December 2023 08:37

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 30 November 2023 21:06

Pretty dismal return for Zadorov by Conroy. Traded to the Canucks.

Give a division rival a decent dman for a 5th in 2024 and 3rd in 2026.

Can't be too angry, McDavid loves to turn Zadorov into a pylon. Maybe will be helpful to us against the Canucks.

I think that's a brutal return. Zadorov is a guy that most teams love to add at the deadline and they could have easily gotten a better package if they waited.

I read the key thing for them is not having to retain any money. My question is, what are you doing? He's a UFA so you are retaining money for a couple of months. You have a bunch of key guys who are still unsigned. If you haven't signed Lindholm by now, He's gone in my opinion. If they lose him, your top centers are going to be 34 yr old Kadri and going to be 35 yr old Backlund. The Flames are already one of those teams that are mediocre who if everyone plays well and things go their way, they might make a wildcard spot. They should be stockpiling assets so if you have to retain some on Zadorov to get a better return, they should be doing it.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827863 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Fri, 01 December 2023 11:59

NCREDiBLE
Messages: 258
Registered: February 2007
Location: Cold Lake, AB

No Cups

With Montreal signing Montrebault today, is that a step closer to them trading Allen?
Skinner definitely needs a vet mentor but I’m on the fence with Allen.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827865 is a reply to message #827863 ]	Fri, 01 December 2023 14:45

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 776
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Mike Smith is a free agent.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827870 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Sat, 02 December 2023 22:36

Kr55
Messages: 10866
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Barrie not working out in Nashville. Curious where he ends up. Desharnais is pretty much a lock with this org it seems, so don't think we have a spot for him unless we can make a mega trade involving Saros :)

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
There is word today the Nashville Predators have given Tyson Barrie permission to talk to other teams. Barrie is expected to be a scratch vs the Rangers and is a UFA after this season. This allows team and player to see if there is a better fit elsewhere

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827871 is a reply to message #827870 ]	Sun, 03 December 2023 01:17

nullterm
Messages: 1038
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 02 December 2023 21:36

Barrie not working out in Nashville. Curious where he ends up. Desharnais is pretty much a lock with this org it seems, so don't think we have a spot for him unless we can make a mega trade involving Saros :)

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
There is word today the Nashville Predators have given Tyson Barrie permission to talk to other teams. Barrie is expected to be a scratch vs the Rangers and is a UFA after this season. This allows team and player to see if there is a better fit elsewhere

Would love to have Barrie the guy back!

But Barrie the Dman doesn't fit any of our needs with Bouchard playing as he is on the 1PP.

On the 3rd pair with Kulak/Broberg, and some 2PP time? eh

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827872 is a reply to message #827871 ]	Sun, 03 December 2023 13:09

inverno76
Messages: 2353
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

nullterm wrote on Sun, 03 December 2023 01:17

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 02 December 2023 21:36

Barrie not working out in Nashville. Curious where he ends up. Desharnais is pretty much a lock with this org it seems, so don't think we have a spot for him unless we can make a mega trade involving Saros :)

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
There is word today the Nashville Predators have given Tyson Barrie permission to talk to other teams. Barrie is expected to be a scratch vs the Rangers and is a UFA after this season. This allows team and player to see if there is a better fit elsewhere

Would love to have Barrie the guy back!

But Barrie the Dman doesn't fit any of our needs with Bouchard playing as he is on the 1PP.

On the 3rd pair with Kulak/Broberg, and some 2PP time? eh

Barrie would be a great insurance investment if a Bouchard injury ever happened, but unless the deal includes Saros it’s a hard pass. Barrie is not a need.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827875 is a reply to message #827872 ]	Mon, 04 December 2023 08:55

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I know Ottawa went to Sweden and played a lighter schedule because of it, but having games in hand on CBJ is ridiculous. The schedule makers needs to keep this tighter.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827876 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Mon, 04 December 2023 10:11

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Nino Neiderreiter gets extended for 3 years at $4MM per by the Winnipeg Jets. Good start to the season, but he's 31 and tends to get between 30-40 points per year. I'm thinking that's an overpay.

He is agreeing to spend an extra three years in ~~Hell~~ Winnipeg though.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827877 is a reply to message #827876 ]	Mon, 04 December 2023 10:28

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 04 December 2023 10:11

Nino Neiderreiter gets extended for 3 years at $4MM per by the Winnipeg Jets. Good start to the season, but he's 31 and tends to get between 30-40 points per year. I'm thinking that's an overpay.

He is agreeing to spend an extra three years in ~~Hell~~ Winnipeg though.

I can't believe Nino is in his 15th year in the league. Those 6 years in Minnesota are a blackhole in my memory.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827878 is a reply to message #827877 ]	Mon, 04 December 2023 12:06

oilfan94
Messages: 424
Registered: June 2006
Location: USA

No Cups

I always remember him for his legendary rookie season with the Islanders. 54 games with 1 goal and 0 assists. I don't blame the Islanders for selling him as high as they could after a decent AHL season the next year, and they still have Cal Clutterbuck from that trade 10 years later. Neiderreiter was definitely the better player, but he easily looked like a bust at that point.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827913 is a reply to message #827878 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827915 is a reply to message #827913 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827916 is a reply to message #827915 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 15:44

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Ference too.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827918 is a reply to message #827916 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 16:32

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7826
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 15:44

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Ference too.

Of course, there is a difference between toasting a guy that won't work out after the season and doing the dirty in season to save cap space because you believe your team has a chance to win a cup. It's a small difference, but it's there. Certainly bring Campbell back to get a season ending, uh, elbow surgery would be an oddly amazing stroke of luck.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827920 is a reply to message #827918 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 17:15

nullterm
Messages: 1038
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 15:32

Adam wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 15:44

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Ference too.

Of course, there is a difference between toasting a guy that won't work out after the season and doing the dirty in season to save cap space because you believe your team has a chance to win a cup. It's a small difference, but it's there. Certainly bring Campbell back to get a season ending, uh, elbow surgery would be an oddly amazing stroke of luck.

It's the Oilers, we specialize in shoulders.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827921 is a reply to message #827918 ]	Wed, 06 December 2023 17:42

benv
Messages: 606
Registered: May 2006
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 16:32

Adam wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 15:44

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Ference too.

Of course, there is a difference between toasting a guy that won't work out after the season and doing the dirty in season to save cap space because you believe your team has a chance to win a cup. It's a small difference, but it's there. Certainly bring Campbell back to get a season ending, uh, elbow surgery would be an oddly amazing stroke of luck.

Your post has made me wonder if you can get NHL cap relief from a player in the AHL (whose counting against your cap) suffering a long-term injury while in the AHL.

I truly don't know.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827948 is a reply to message #827918 ]	Thu, 07 December 2023 00:12

inverno76
Messages: 2353
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 16:32

Adam wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 15:44

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 December 2023 14:27

The Oilers need to hire one of the Leafs doctors. How come every time they sign a guy and it doesn't go well, they end up with season ending injuries?

Murray - Seasoning ending injury.
Klingberg - He starts out bad. OOHHH what do you know, season ending surgery.

Like when Mike Smith was so injured he had to retire?

Ference too.

Of course, there is a difference between toasting a guy that won't work out after the season and doing the dirty in season to save cap space because you believe your team has a chance to win a cup. It's a small difference, but it's there. Certainly bring Campbell back to get a season ending, uh, elbow surgery would be an oddly amazing stroke of luck.

Campbell from afar is struggling with his mental side of the game. Play the mental health card for the betterment of the team and the player.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #828058 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Tue, 12 December 2023 11:07

Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

I thought the 6-game suspension for Perron was a little high, given Zub isn't even hurt. Parros really has the wheel spinning this week for these decisions. Gudbranson gets a single game for several punches to a player on the ice (I assume he took in to account the hit from behind from earlier in the game - which seems like it should be irrelevant in determining suspension for the sucker punches). And Ryan Strome gets nothing for kneeing Kyle Connor as the NHL says he didn't intend to knee him.

Just a complete crapshoot as to what you're going to get from Parros. Anyone remember the McDavid suspension for hitting Nick Leddy a couple years back? Did Parros think McDavid intended to hit him high there? Why is intent being guessed at on a knee that may have sidelined the best player for the Jets, while not coming in to play on a hit that I don't think even really put out the Islanders defenceman?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #828060 is a reply to message #828058 ]	Tue, 12 December 2023 11:29

Kr55
Messages: 10866
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 12 December 2023 11:07

I thought the 6-game suspension for Perron was a little high, given Zub isn't even hurt. Parros really has the wheel spinning this week for these decisions. Gudbranson gets a single game for several punches to a player on the ice (I assume he took in to account the hit from behind from earlier in the game - which seems like it should be irrelevant in determining suspension for the sucker punches). And Ryan Strome gets nothing for kneeing Kyle Connor as the NHL says he didn't intend to knee him.

Just a complete crapshoot as to what you're going to get from Parros. Anyone remember the McDavid suspension for hitting Nick Leddy a couple years back? Did Parros think McDavid intended to hit him high there? Why is intent being guessed at on a knee that may have sidelined the best player for the Jets, while not coming in to play on a hit that I don't think even really put out the Islanders defenceman?

Nurse will probably stand as the only player to actually have his late game instigator suspension upheld for years to come. Just in the last 2 years, he is the only one out of 4. And some of those other ones actually had guys surprise jumping players from behind and pounding someone that was defenseless.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #828063 is a reply to message #828060 ]	Tue, 12 December 2023 12:03

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 776
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Don't forget Tom Wilson, who has been suspended on five different occasions, somehow received no additional discipline last year after driving Buchnevich and Panarin's heads into the ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ScUSltfco - TSN guys talking, but there's the clip included.

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Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #828314 is a reply to message #825593 ]	Thu, 21 December 2023 22:12

smyth260
Messages: 1087
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Michael Kesselring scoring at half a point per game clip while playing very little minutes on Arizona’s right side.

How did the Oilers not know what they had here? Lots of prospect experts on twitter thought including him in the Bjugstad trade was terrible, and they appear correct.

Clean house or bust

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