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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826799 is a reply to message #826798 ]
Wed, 08 November 2023 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 10:14

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 09:36

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 08:45

Tocchet demands a certain level of detail and effort from the team and he holds his team accountable. Case in point against Nashville, his current highest paid player, one of his best players and an assistant captain J.T Miller wasn't playing undisciplined, after taking his 3rd penalty, he benched him. Not for a game or a whole period but for 4 mins.

“I felt he needed to sit with accountability and he responds with a goal. He’s fine. He came up and apologized to me and I apologized to him. I love the kid. I have no problems with J.T. Miller.

He set a standard for the team, one of his leader wasn't meeting that standard. I would bet the rest of the team took notice that one of their best players isn't above the rules. Miller responded with a goal right after. Also has 2 goals, 5 pts and 2 pims in the 3 games since.

But what do I know. I am less knowledgeable thinking a coach needs to set standards for his team and how they should play and when the players don't meet that standard, there are consequences other than a slap on the back. Having Demko helps them but they are also playing very hard which includes all their best players. The are only 9-2-1 so all that accountability crap I was preaching is probably overrated and obsolete.

You're so passive aggressive it hurts.

What you're preaching is obsolete. Thinking the solution is guys need to try harder, show they care, or not make dumb plays makes you a dinosaur. Coaches and managers do need to set a standard and create a culture of accountability. That's not what the argument is. The question is how to be do it. My perspective is treating adults like a 4 year old and sending them to a corner to think about what they've done doesn't actually modify behavior or improve results. I would suggest JT Miller scoring a goal was not a direct result of him being benched for 4 minutes. I have no problem with a guy missing a shift, but I with a few caveats: it needs to used as a training opportunity, there needs to be someone from a lesser role having earned the opportunity for the promotion, and it can't harm the team. Personally, I would never admit that I benched a player either. When someone with the mentality of you or Spector asked why I benched JT Miller I'd flat out lie and say he got dinged up and need 4 minutes of rest so we used it as an opportunity to get him some in-game coaching while giving Di Giuseppe (or whoever) some top line time because the pizza man has been doing some really good things and earned the opportunity.

tl;dr: If the coach isn't using the benching as an opportunity to improve the team, it's a passive aggressive emotional response that will fail in the long run.


I would also suggest that Tochett benching Miller for a shift and Huska benching Huberdeau last night only proves you can bench a top player, not that you should.


Huberdeau is making 10.5M, has 6 points and is -12 and slacked off almost the entirety of last season. I suppose benching him makes sense. I would expect people would compare this to a young D on our team making 1/3 as much, leading out team in ice time lately that is one of the top D scorers in the NHL.

Huberdeau is closer to the Campbell zone than the Bouchard zone, imo. He might just not have it anymore.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826803 is a reply to message #826795 ]
Wed, 08 November 2023 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 09:36

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 08:45

Tocchet demands a certain level of detail and effort from the team and he holds his team accountable. Case in point against Nashville, his current highest paid player, one of his best players and an assistant captain J.T Miller wasn't playing undisciplined, after taking his 3rd penalty, he benched him. Not for a game or a whole period but for 4 mins.

“I felt he needed to sit with accountability and he responds with a goal. He’s fine. He came up and apologized to me and I apologized to him. I love the kid. I have no problems with J.T. Miller.

He set a standard for the team, one of his leader wasn't meeting that standard. I would bet the rest of the team took notice that one of their best players isn't above the rules. Miller responded with a goal right after. Also has 2 goals, 5 pts and 2 pims in the 3 games since.

But what do I know. I am less knowledgeable thinking a coach needs to set standards for his team and how they should play and when the players don't meet that standard, there are consequences other than a slap on the back. Having Demko helps them but they are also playing very hard which includes all their best players. The are only 9-2-1 so all that accountability crap I was preaching is probably overrated and obsolete.

You're so passive aggressive it hurts.

What you're preaching is obsolete. Thinking the solution is guys need to try harder, show they care, or not make dumb plays makes you a dinosaur. Coaches and managers do need to set a standard and create a culture of accountability. That's not what the argument is. The question is how to be do it. My perspective is treating adults like a 4 year old and sending them to a corner to think about what they've done doesn't actually modify behavior or improve results. I would suggest JT Miller scoring a goal was not a direct result of him being benched for 4 minutes. I have no problem with a guy missing a shift, but I with a few caveats: it needs to used as a training opportunity, there needs to be someone from a lesser role having earned the opportunity for the promotion, and it can't harm the team. Personally, I would never admit that I benched a player either. When someone with the mentality of you or Spector asked why I benched JT Miller I'd flat out lie and say he got dinged up and need 4 minutes of rest so we used it as an opportunity to get him some in-game coaching while giving Di Giuseppe (or whoever) some top line time because the pizza man has been doing some really good things and earned the opportunity.

tl;dr: If the coach isn't using the benching as an opportunity to improve the team, it's a passive aggressive emotional response that will fail in the long run.


I would also suggest that Tochett benching Miller for a shift and Huska benching Huberdeau last night only proves you can bench a top player, not that you should.

I am preaching to try something else.

When a player makes a mistake. The coach should go over to him, point out the mistake, these days you can show him the mistake literally seconds after it happens on a tablet. You discuss how to fix it. As you pointed out, they aren't kids so the player should be able to make the adjustment pretty quickly and you move on. After the game, I am sure they go over video with the players. Discuss with the group what happen, who should do what. The might go over things in practice soon after. So for the next game, the player should know what to do so he doesn't make the same mistake again.

If the mistake happens again, you do the same thing. Then do it again if he can't get it. But when it happens over and over and over again and what you are doing isn't working and that player either isn't understanding, isn't listening or choosing not to do it, you need to do something else to get the message across. The mistakes I am talking about aren't a one off, these are the same mistakes he's been doing game after game for pretty much his entire time in the NHL.

I don't know what you do for a living, maybe you work all by yourself and only have yourself to answer to. But I work in an office, I manage people. All the people are grown adults. We have employees who are long term employees and employees who are fresh graduates. When a fresh graduate comes to work for my company, I know they will make mistakes because they are learning. So when mistakes happen, I or one of our supervisors points out the mistakes, goes over it, shows them how to fix it. The expectation is when we show you how to do something after you make a mistake, the next time you do something, we don't expect you to make the exact same mistake again or get worse. At the very least, we expect you to improve slightly each time we show you how to do something and eventually as you get more experience, the mistakes you make get less and less and the quality of your work improves. But when we tell an employee how to do something and they keep doing the same mistake over and over and over again, at some point there has to be consequences because we aren't getting any results from that employee. At some point we have to change our approach with them.

So that is what I am saying. What they have been doing with Bouchard isn't working. He's played games in parts of 5 years. The issues he had his first year are the same as they are today and it doesn't appear to be getting better. So something has to change with what they are doing with him.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826816 is a reply to message #826803 ]
Wed, 08 November 2023 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 10:48


So that is what I am saying. What they have been doing with Bouchard isn't working. He's played games in parts of 5 years. The issues he had his first year are the same as they are today and it doesn't appear to be getting better. So something has to change with what they are doing with him.


I'm not sure that holds up well to analysis on the player.

His game isn't perfect, but one of the reasons Oilers fans and Oilers crappy media always focus on young puck-moving defencemen is that they're on the ice a lot, they have a lot of touches on the puck in the course of a game and they are, other than the goalies, the last line of defence - so a turnover is that much more likely to end up in the back of the net. Especially if your goalies are named Campbell and Skinner. Bonus points for the fans and media guys if they don't think the guy is physical enough. I'm sure you can find lots of people even around these parts who HATED Tom Poti and Jeff Petry and so many others and would not even think to examine whether their biases towards those players are warranted. They'll just say "They were soft!" and "They had too many giveaways!" Hell, Terry Jones was bragging on twitter the other day that in his first couple seasons as an Oiler, Paul Coffey was dubbed "Paul Coffey-up" by Jones - because who doesn't love hanging a dull-wit derisive nickname on an 18-year old kid. Worth noting, in his second season with the team - Coffey scored 106 points and was +35 (he was never a minus player in his entire time with the Oilers) so maybe Jones didn't exactly have that one right.

With regards to Tocchet benching JT Miller, I again agree with CrusaderPi - that's more about the coach trying to do something that is going to get him given the credit. If you just roll your top guys out and they win, people might just think it's all them being talented and such. If you bench your guy and then talk about how you did it afterwards, then it's no lose. Either he does well and you're remembered as the guy who got something out of him, or it's not your fault because you did something visible and if the guy doesn't respond then it says something about his intelligence or effort level or whatever. It IS a tool in the tool box, and it probably has it's place. But 99% of the time that fans call for it, and probably 80% of the time when coaches do it to high-end players, it's not really warranted.

Back to Bouchard - he's currently sitting at 3-7-10 on the season, 11 games in. That's on pace for over 70 points for the math-challenged out there. It's also tied for second on the team. Among defencemen? He's 7 points up on the next (Nurse). His -7 is tied for the worst on the team, but it's not markedly worse than our other defencemen: Nurse & Kulak are -5, Ekholm is -4, Desharnais is -3. Somehow Cody Ceci is even (maybe he deserves more PP time?)

And clearly, Bouchard IS getting the trust of his coach. He's 20 seconds behind Nurse in time on ice, that's about two minutes more than Ekholm and Ceci, and over 6 and 8 minutes more than Kulak and Desharnais respectively.

Worth noting - if you're sitting Bouchard for any length of time, it means more shifts for Desharnais - who as everyone knows is the least trustworthy defenceman on the team. You just can't put big Vinnie out against other teams' top players, because his lack of footspeed burns you. His usage reflects that too. So if you're trailing in a game and mad because Bouchard made one mistake and you just talked to him the other day about how you don't like turnovers and now you decide to sit him at the end of the bench, then you now have to figure out how you A) catch up in the game without your top-producing and best puck-moving defenceman and B) how you avoid not falling behind further when you're replacing a bunch of his minutes with the worst defencemen on the roster.

But hey, I'm sure that giving someone ten minutes at the end of the bench to think about what they've done will make him play mistake-free hockey from now on or expose him as the mentally fragile fraud that some have always suspected he was.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826819 is a reply to message #826816 ]
Wed, 08 November 2023 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Also worth looking into how many of those great big '-' numbers are errors on him, and how many are due to .750 goaltending.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826820 is a reply to message #826819 ]
Wed, 08 November 2023 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 14:52

Also worth looking into how many of those great big '-' numbers are errors on him, and how many are due to .750 goaltending.


Well, and are the super-visible mistakes dramatically outnumbered by good plays in similar situations. I'd suggest it's really easy to remember turnovers leading to goals against, but clean zone exits are unsexy and unremarkable - so if you make 20-to-1 good to bad, people may only remember the bad ones.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827619 is a reply to message #826816 ]
Sun, 26 November 2023 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJ is currently offline MJ
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I love when you are really both right. Good job to both RDO and Adam. This post goes against my usual philosophy of what should be put up on the board, but I don't care at the moment. Love the debate, love reading good insights. I felt some positive encouragement was necessary.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827660 is a reply to message #827619 ]
Mon, 27 November 2023 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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You're a gem.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827618 is a reply to message #826803 ]
Sat, 25 November 2023 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76 is currently offline inverno76
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 10:48

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 09:36

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 08 November 2023 08:45

Tocchet demands a certain level of detail and effort from the team and he holds his team accountable. Case in point against Nashville, his current highest paid player, one of his best players and an assistant captain J.T Miller wasn't playing undisciplined, after taking his 3rd penalty, he benched him. Not for a game or a whole period but for 4 mins.

“I felt he needed to sit with accountability and he responds with a goal. He’s fine. He came up and apologized to me and I apologized to him. I love the kid. I have no problems with J.T. Miller.

He set a standard for the team, one of his leader wasn't meeting that standard. I would bet the rest of the team took notice that one of their best players isn't above the rules. Miller responded with a goal right after. Also has 2 goals, 5 pts and 2 pims in the 3 games since.

But what do I know. I am less knowledgeable thinking a coach needs to set standards for his team and how they should play and when the players don't meet that standard, there are consequences other than a slap on the back. Having Demko helps them but they are also playing very hard which includes all their best players. The are only 9-2-1 so all that accountability crap I was preaching is probably overrated and obsolete.

You're so passive aggressive it hurts.

What you're preaching is obsolete. Thinking the solution is guys need to try harder, show they care, or not make dumb plays makes you a dinosaur. Coaches and managers do need to set a standard and create a culture of accountability. That's not what the argument is. The question is how to be do it. My perspective is treating adults like a 4 year old and sending them to a corner to think about what they've done doesn't actually modify behavior or improve results. I would suggest JT Miller scoring a goal was not a direct result of him being benched for 4 minutes. I have no problem with a guy missing a shift, but I with a few caveats: it needs to used as a training opportunity, there needs to be someone from a lesser role having earned the opportunity for the promotion, and it can't harm the team. Personally, I would never admit that I benched a player either. When someone with the mentality of you or Spector asked why I benched JT Miller I'd flat out lie and say he got dinged up and need 4 minutes of rest so we used it as an opportunity to get him some in-game coaching while giving Di Giuseppe (or whoever) some top line time because the pizza man has been doing some really good things and earned the opportunity.

tl;dr: If the coach isn't using the benching as an opportunity to improve the team, it's a passive aggressive emotional response that will fail in the long run.


I would also suggest that Tochett benching Miller for a shift and Huska benching Huberdeau last night only proves you can bench a top player, not that you should.


I don't know what you do for a living, maybe you work all by yourself and only have yourself to answer to. But I work in an office, I manage people. All the people are grown adults. We have employees who are long term employees and employees who are fresh graduates. When a fresh graduate comes to work for my company, I know they will make mistakes because they are learning. So when mistakes happen, I or one of our supervisors points out the mistakes, goes over it, shows them how to fix it. The expectation is when we show you how to do something after you make a mistake, the next time you do something, we don't expect you to make the exact same mistake again or get worse. At the very least, we expect you to improve slightly each time we show you how to do something and eventually as you get more experience, the mistakes you make get less and less and the quality of your work improves. But when we tell an employee how to do something and they keep doing the same mistake over and over and over again, at some point there has to be consequences because we aren't getting any results from that employee. At some point we have to change our approach with them.


Something to consider, and it falls in line with newer leadership strategies …. Ask the skilled employee what they are missing from the equation. Simply showing someone the correct way by role modelling is one tactic, and I’m assuming Bouchard is being shown the corrections. There are multiple communication styles and coaches/leaders need to be adaptable to the individual. Believing that a punishment will will rectify an error or behaviour is implying that the person is just not willing to learn or do the task. Explicity over implicitly every day of the week and twice on Saturday afternoon matinee games.

The carrot is an old dated motivational concept and if you want to have long-term success you work with the individual to gain understanding of their shortfalls and find them strategies to succeed. Thankfully there are dinosaurs out there that keep me busy and employed.




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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826829 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Hey, at least we didn't sign Klingberg! People think oilers D are bad, oh my goodness is Colonel Kling having one right now. Got 4.15M too on his 1 year deal.

He's #3 that falls and then just stands straight up watching the next 10 seconds

https://x.com/hayyyshayyy/status/1722422405795054048?s=20


Maybe just needs to be benched for a period.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 November 2023 00:40]

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- MacT, 2015

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826835 is a reply to message #826829 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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I wonder if the trading of Addison is a just 1 GM not liking a young player and giving up on him early or if there will be a shift in how teams see a certain type of dman which is the very offensive dman who's poor defensively.

Generally, players get paid for points. So when a young dman puts up big points, he's going to expect a big raise on his next contract but if the same high scoring dman is a train wreck defensively to where you have to shelter him 5 on 5 and can never play him on the PK, there comes a price point where you can't be paying a dman 7-8 mill because he scores a ton of PP points but can't play higher than your 3rd pairing. I am thinking of Bouchard. He's probably going to put up 60+ pt seasons for the next couple. So at the end of his deal he will be coming to the Oilers with his hand out looking to get paid but unless his defense improved dramatically, I don't think you can be giving a PP specialist that you have to protect defensively huge money just because he scores a lot. I see his defensively game taking a step back and he already goes no where near the PK.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826838 is a reply to message #826835 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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I'm curious if this is a GM who 'knows his own asset' better than his competition does. We've said that we wish Oilers management would act on our prospects more, and we should know more about them than anyone. Perhaps they know that his ceiling isn't as high as previously thought.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826841 is a reply to message #826838 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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It's interesting Minnesota moved Addison to bring in Zach Bogosian. He's the same cap hit, 10 years older, and has been a healthy scratch for Tampa most of the season. I guess they have given up two more goals than the Oilers this year in one more game. Maybe they know they need a better defense.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826854 is a reply to message #826841 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 09 November 2023 13:19

It's interesting Minnesota moved Addison to bring in Zach Bogosian. He's the same cap hit, 10 years older, and has been a healthy scratch for Tampa most of the season. I guess they have given up two more goals than the Oilers this year in one more game. Maybe they know they need a better defense.


Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 09 November 2023 13:01

I'm curious if this is a GM who 'knows his own asset' better than his competition does. We've said that we wish Oilers management would act on our prospects more, and we should know more about them than anyone. Perhaps they know that his ceiling isn't as high as previously thought.


Bill Guerin is another old hockey player who's done no shortage of old hockey player things since becoming a general manager. He's not exactly proven to be a hockey savant.

Tampa has to be thrilled to have cap space and a 7th round pick for a guy who's over the hill who they were barely using.

And San Jose gets a young player with a ton of upside. So Mike Grier may have to send his old teammate a thank you card at some point.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #826846 is a reply to message #826838 ]
Thu, 09 November 2023 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 09 November 2023 13:01

I'm curious if this is a GM who 'knows his own asset' better than his competition does. We've said that we wish Oilers management would act on our prospects more, and we should know more about them than anyone. Perhaps they know that his ceiling isn't as high as previously thought.

It did seem odd to trade a right shot dman that was so young for so little. I don't watch a lot of Wild games to know much about him. He scored 29 pts in 62 games. -17 which is pretty bad. He's a bit undersized but he's young and only making 825 K.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827283 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Sat, 18 November 2023 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Milan Lucic done indefinitely after a "domestic violence incident."

Not good. So much for the happy homecoming stories.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/18/sports/bruins-milan-lucic-arre sted-after-alleged-domestic-incident/

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827399 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Tue, 21 November 2023 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Forgot we hired the gigabrain GM that let Quinn Hughes drop to the Canucks so he could draft a butter soft slacker. He made up for the mistake of passing on an elite D by drafting Broberg for us the next year. Shame, if he was still the wings GM in 2019, he probably takes Broberg #6 and Seider falls to us (we probably don't take Seider anyways, who am I kidding).

Hughes leading the NHL in points now. What a ridiculous season so far for the Canucks.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 13:35]

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- MacT, 2015

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827400 is a reply to message #827399 ]
Tue, 21 November 2023 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Did the Oilers have a shot at Hughes? I don't remember that.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827401 is a reply to message #827400 ]
Tue, 21 November 2023 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Hughes was taken 7th. The Oilers drafted 10th and took Bouchard. Dobson was probably the better pick. The Islanders had the 11th and 12th and took him with the 12th.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827403 is a reply to message #827400 ]
Tue, 21 November 2023 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:38

Did the Oilers have a shot at Hughes? I don't remember that.


He's talking about Holland's last Detroit draft - he picked Filip Zadina one spot ahead of Quinn Hughes. The two players have slightly diverged in the years since.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827404 is a reply to message #827403 ]
Tue, 21 November 2023 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:38

Did the Oilers have a shot at Hughes? I don't remember that.


He's talking about Holland's last Detroit draft - he picked Filip Zadina one spot ahead of Quinn Hughes. The two players have slightly diverged in the years since.

I should have known just to trust Kr and read a little more closely.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827538 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Wed, 22 November 2023 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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So, in the time we paid Holland $25,000,000, the LA kings went from being a lottery team to top 5, and they're currently using the same goalie and coach we had after we drafted McDavid.

That's neat

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827540 is a reply to message #827538 ]
Wed, 22 November 2023 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 22:19

So, in the time we paid Holland $25,000,000, the LA kings went from being a lottery team to top 5, and they're currently using the same goalie and coach we had after we drafted McDavid.

That's neat


Despite having the Oilers problem of just hiring a bunch of old stars too! Even that can apparently be overcome if the entire organization isn't an echo chamber of incompetence.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827546 is a reply to message #827540 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.


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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827548 is a reply to message #827546 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigEfromGP is currently offline bigEfromGP
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Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39

18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.



I think there is only one way a new owner comes in, and that's DK passes suddenly and the reins are handed to his kid. I'm not even sure Darryl cares about the winning or losing; he's made nothing but money with his downtown arena project, and gets to hang out with his buds from the 80's. He's got too much money and pride in the extremely rare event that another multi-billionaire Oiler fan came along with an over the top offer to buy the team and lead it to success. I can't see any scenario that Darryl isn't the owner for a long time.

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 09 October 2020 13:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Fri, 09 October 2020 13:00

The president thinks he has the ideal male body.
It's hard to disagree that he has the ideal male body.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827549 is a reply to message #827548 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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bigEfromGP wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 10:56

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39

18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.



I think there is only one way a new owner comes in, and that's DK passes suddenly and the reins are handed to his kid. I'm not even sure Darryl cares about the winning or losing; he's made nothing but money with his downtown arena project, and gets to hang out with his buds from the 80's. He's got too much money and pride in the extremely rare event that another multi-billionaire Oiler fan came along with an over the top offer to buy the team and lead it to success. I can't see any scenario that Darryl isn't the owner for a long time.


He's got to have SOME pride though, doesn't he? He has to be the laughing stock amongst owners. Who knows, maybe he wakes up one day and sees another loss and loses it and completely cleans house. Or maybe he gives the team to his son and he does it.

I don't know - it just doesn't make sense that we are STILL where we are with the gifts we've been given. I'm at a loss...

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827556 is a reply to message #827549 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 08:28

bigEfromGP wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 10:56

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39

18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.



I think there is only one way a new owner comes in, and that's DK passes suddenly and the reins are handed to his kid. I'm not even sure Darryl cares about the winning or losing; he's made nothing but money with his downtown arena project, and gets to hang out with his buds from the 80's. He's got too much money and pride in the extremely rare event that another multi-billionaire Oiler fan came along with an over the top offer to buy the team and lead it to success. I can't see any scenario that Darryl isn't the owner for a long time.


He's got to have SOME pride though, doesn't he? He has to be the laughing stock amongst owners. Who knows, maybe he wakes up one day and sees another loss and loses it and completely cleans house. Or maybe he gives the team to his son and he does it.

I don't know - it just doesn't make sense that we are STILL where we are with the gifts we've been given. I'm at a loss...

I am the same as you. I can't figure out what is going on here. Yes the roster isn't perfect clearly and they need to do something about their goalies, that's so blatantly obvious. But put in the best goalie in the NHL in the Oilers net and while it would help some, I don't think it helps them that much.

KR55 had the picture of the Canes player standing all by himself in the slot shooting while 4 Oilers all stand in a perfect box, not 1 guy getting close to him. One Dman literally has his back turned to the freaking play. He's not even covering ANYONE to remotely excuse it, there's not one there! What system would say turn your back to the play!! My 10 yr old who plays defense gets taught not to turn his back to the play.

I am waiting for one of them to lay down and start doing snow angles on the ice because it looks like at times they are brand new to hockey.

[Updated on: Thu, 23 November 2023 11:36]

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827557 is a reply to message #827556 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:35

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 08:28

bigEfromGP wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 10:56

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39

18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.



I think there is only one way a new owner comes in, and that's DK passes suddenly and the reins are handed to his kid. I'm not even sure Darryl cares about the winning or losing; he's made nothing but money with his downtown arena project, and gets to hang out with his buds from the 80's. He's got too much money and pride in the extremely rare event that another multi-billionaire Oiler fan came along with an over the top offer to buy the team and lead it to success. I can't see any scenario that Darryl isn't the owner for a long time.


He's got to have SOME pride though, doesn't he? He has to be the laughing stock amongst owners. Who knows, maybe he wakes up one day and sees another loss and loses it and completely cleans house. Or maybe he gives the team to his son and he does it.

I don't know - it just doesn't make sense that we are STILL where we are with the gifts we've been given. I'm at a loss...

I am the same as you. I can't figure out what is going on here. Yes the roster isn't perfect clearly and they need to do something about their goalies, that's so blatantly obvious. But put in the best goalie in the NHL in the Oilers net and while it would help some, I don't think it helps them that much.

KR55 had the picture of the Canes player standing all by himself in the slot shooting while 4 Oilers all stand in a perfect box, not 1 guy getting close to him. One Dman literally has his back turned to the freaking play. He's not even covering ANYONE to remotely excuse it, there's not one there! What system would say turn your back to the play!! My 10 yr old who plays defense gets taught not to turn his back to the play.

These guys look like they literally forgot how to play hockey.

I think the on ice issues with the players is that they don't trust each other because (my opinion only) over half the team is playing in spots that is too big for their skill. They see someone getting outmatched and they over compensate. A zone defense in hockey is neither complicated or a new concept. I don't believe for a second all of these guys have played their entire minor and pro career on man defense chasing people around the ice. But when they go up against a good NHL team or high skilled players they know people are going to get beat.

My personal bias on this assessment comes from a starting point that management put together a really bad hockey team because they overpaid 5 of their top 7 players and had to go sub-replacement level for the rest.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827560 is a reply to message #827557 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:42

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:35

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 08:28

bigEfromGP wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 10:56

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 06:39

18 games in and were 10 points out of the wild card. icon_lol 19 points behind the division leaders. With 0 cap space and in McDavid and Draisaitl’s primes. lmao

Once McDavid asks for a trade or simply doesn’t extend, I’m pretty sure that’ll be it for my time as a fan of this team. I truly believe like I have for a few years now that our only hope is a new non fanboy owner to come in and really clean house. Everything has changed multiple times over, yet everything stays the same. It’s the culture. And that starts at the top. I know all the pollyannas will say Lowe, Coffey, Nicholson, etc…are not the ones blowing coverage and whatever else, but again - EVERYTHING ELSE has been churned over umpteen times. Gifted one of the greatest 1-2 punches in the history of the game. And still we wallow. It’s embarrassing.



I think there is only one way a new owner comes in, and that's DK passes suddenly and the reins are handed to his kid. I'm not even sure Darryl cares about the winning or losing; he's made nothing but money with his downtown arena project, and gets to hang out with his buds from the 80's. He's got too much money and pride in the extremely rare event that another multi-billionaire Oiler fan came along with an over the top offer to buy the team and lead it to success. I can't see any scenario that Darryl isn't the owner for a long time.


He's got to have SOME pride though, doesn't he? He has to be the laughing stock amongst owners. Who knows, maybe he wakes up one day and sees another loss and loses it and completely cleans house. Or maybe he gives the team to his son and he does it.

I don't know - it just doesn't make sense that we are STILL where we are with the gifts we've been given. I'm at a loss...

I am the same as you. I can't figure out what is going on here. Yes the roster isn't perfect clearly and they need to do something about their goalies, that's so blatantly obvious. But put in the best goalie in the NHL in the Oilers net and while it would help some, I don't think it helps them that much.

KR55 had the picture of the Canes player standing all by himself in the slot shooting while 4 Oilers all stand in a perfect box, not 1 guy getting close to him. One Dman literally has his back turned to the freaking play. He's not even covering ANYONE to remotely excuse it, there's not one there! What system would say turn your back to the play!! My 10 yr old who plays defense gets taught not to turn his back to the play.

These guys look like they literally forgot how to play hockey.

I think the on ice issues with the players is that they don't trust each other because (my opinion only) over half the team is playing in spots that is too big for their skill. They see someone getting outmatched and they over compensate. A zone defense in hockey is neither complicated or a new concept. I don't believe for a second all of these guys have played their entire minor and pro career on man defense chasing people around the ice. But when they go up against a good NHL team or high skilled players they know people are going to get beat.

My personal bias on this assessment comes from a starting point that management put together a really bad hockey team because they overpaid 5 of their top 7 players and had to go sub-replacement level for the rest.


I have a joking theory about the Oilers. How, their main issue is how they practice against the Oilers.

Offense seems so easy in practice because they play against our lousy defensive system. Defense seems easy because our offense is built to only depend on 1 player per line to do everything. None of this prepares them to play a team with depth and that has a 3+ man attack in the offensive zone. They don't learn to handle multiple competent forwards on the attack. They don't learn how to handle defense that is able to adapt to situations.

Just a fun theory though.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827553 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Thu, 23 November 2023 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oilfan94 is currently offline oilfan94
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Taylor Hall out for the season after just 4 points in 10 games. Dude really has the worst luck. One more year on this deal, so he'll need a good rebound season if he wants to get another good contract.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827668 is a reply to message #825593 ]
Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827673 is a reply to message #827668 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10

Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!


What archaic thinking by Tocchet, head coach of a team challenging for first in the West to expect a player perform and when he doesn't, there are consequences. How dare he!!

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827674 is a reply to message #827673 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10

Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!


What archaic thinking by Tocchet, head coach of a team challenging for first in the West to expect a player perform and when he doesn't, there are consequences. How dare he!!

It is archaic thinking. It's nice for Tocchet that he has a player (or three) in the bottom six that can challenge Kuzmenko for a top six spot and PP time AND has a couple forwards already in the pressbox that can jump into the lineup. Now, the questions are how has Kuzmenko changed from this public shaming and why such a great coach couldn't get a player to simply try harder on a team that's challenging for the division lead without said public shaming.

I don't think a benching is tool that should never be used, the worry is what happens if Kuzmenko doesn't try hard, give more effort and show he cares now? What's the next step if Kuzmenko, a 39 goal scorer and therefore legit NHLer, doesn't respond as expected.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827676 is a reply to message #827674 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:39

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10

Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!


What archaic thinking by Tocchet, head coach of a team challenging for first in the West to expect a player perform and when he doesn't, there are consequences. How dare he!!

It is archaic thinking. It's nice for Tocchet that he has a player (or three) in the bottom six that can challenge Kuzmenko for a top six spot and PP time AND has a couple forwards already in the pressbox that can jump into the lineup. Now, the questions are how has Kuzmenko changed from this public shaming and why such a great coach couldn't get a player to simply try harder on a team that's challenging for the division lead without said public shaming.

I don't think a benching is tool that should never be used, the worry is what happens if Kuzmenko doesn't try hard, give more effort and show he cares now? What's the next step if Kuzmenko, a 39 goal scorer and therefore legit NHLer, doesn't respond as expected.


So rather than explaining why you think it's a terrible idea, provide a solution.

I am sure to get to this point, Tocchet has talked to him on the bench, probably talked to him in practice, probably talked to him in the locker room, probably had private meetings. It wouldn't surprise me if some of his assistant coaches talked to him as well. To get to this point, obviously what's been done to date isn't working.

So you think that a former player with 1144 games in the NHL plus another 496 of coaching is wrong and you are right. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. So what's the proper course of action because clearly talking to him and reasoning with him, isn't working to scratch a 5.5 mill player? The coach, team and organization has a standard they expect all players to play too. They are 14-7-1 so clearly what they are doing is working so far. So rather than tell me once again why in your opinion, it's archaic and a coach who has his team winning 14 of the first 22 games is wrong, what should be done instead to get a player to do his job to the standard that team expects?

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827678 is a reply to message #827676 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 10:06

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:39

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10

Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!


What archaic thinking by Tocchet, head coach of a team challenging for first in the West to expect a player perform and when he doesn't, there are consequences. How dare he!!

It is archaic thinking. It's nice for Tocchet that he has a player (or three) in the bottom six that can challenge Kuzmenko for a top six spot and PP time AND has a couple forwards already in the pressbox that can jump into the lineup. Now, the questions are how has Kuzmenko changed from this public shaming and why such a great coach couldn't get a player to simply try harder on a team that's challenging for the division lead without said public shaming.

I don't think a benching is tool that should never be used, the worry is what happens if Kuzmenko doesn't try hard, give more effort and show he cares now? What's the next step if Kuzmenko, a 39 goal scorer and therefore legit NHLer, doesn't respond as expected.


So rather than explaining why you think it's a terrible idea, provide a solution.

I am sure to get to this point, Tocchet has talked to him on the bench, probably talked to him in practice, probably talked to him in the locker room, probably had private meetings. It wouldn't surprise me if some of his assistant coaches talked to him as well. To get to this point, obviously what's been done to date isn't working.

So you think that a former player with 1144 games in the NHL plus another 496 of coaching is wrong and you are right. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. So what's the proper course of action because clearly talking to him and reasoning with him, isn't working to scratch a 5.5 mill player? The coach, team and organization has a standard they expect all players to play too. They are 14-7-1 so clearly what they are doing is working so far. So rather than tell me once again why in your opinion, it's archaic and a coach who has his team winning 14 of the first 22 games is wrong, what should be done instead to get a player to do his job to the standard that team expects?

I entirely reject your appeal to authority. That is a terrible basis for forming an argument or decision making. Yes, I think Tocchet was probably wrong. The number of games he's played and coached has absolutely no bearing on this decision.

The solution for an underperforming scoring right winger is to move him up and down the line up as his play dictates. This allows someone to beat him for the top role, for Kuzmenko to play himself back into the #1RW position or off the team entirely. Tell him what you need and give him opportunity to do it or not do it. A player cannot be evaluated in the pressbox. Frankly I hope he scores 2 tonight so coaches like Tocchet will continue to make bad choices that weaken their lineup more often to prove an empty point. It would be direct correlation and causation, right? Benching equals 2 goals. After all, Tocchet is an expert. He's played the game.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827679 is a reply to message #827678 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 10:36

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 10:06

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:39

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 09:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 27 November 2023 17:10

Kuzmenko being healthy scratched 2 games in a row. Seems he's slacking a bit after getting his payday. Let's see how it works out!


What archaic thinking by Tocchet, head coach of a team challenging for first in the West to expect a player perform and when he doesn't, there are consequences. How dare he!!

It is archaic thinking. It's nice for Tocchet that he has a player (or three) in the bottom six that can challenge Kuzmenko for a top six spot and PP time AND has a couple forwards already in the pressbox that can jump into the lineup. Now, the questions are how has Kuzmenko changed from this public shaming and why such a great coach couldn't get a player to simply try harder on a team that's challenging for the division lead without said public shaming.

I don't think a benching is tool that should never be used, the worry is what happens if Kuzmenko doesn't try hard, give more effort and show he cares now? What's the next step if Kuzmenko, a 39 goal scorer and therefore legit NHLer, doesn't respond as expected.


So rather than explaining why you think it's a terrible idea, provide a solution.

I am sure to get to this point, Tocchet has talked to him on the bench, probably talked to him in practice, probably talked to him in the locker room, probably had private meetings. It wouldn't surprise me if some of his assistant coaches talked to him as well. To get to this point, obviously what's been done to date isn't working.

So you think that a former player with 1144 games in the NHL plus another 496 of coaching is wrong and you are right. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. So what's the proper course of action because clearly talking to him and reasoning with him, isn't working to scratch a 5.5 mill player? The coach, team and organization has a standard they expect all players to play too. They are 14-7-1 so clearly what they are doing is working so far. So rather than tell me once again why in your opinion, it's archaic and a coach who has his team winning 14 of the first 22 games is wrong, what should be done instead to get a player to do his job to the standard that team expects?

I entirely reject your appeal to authority. That is a terrible basis for forming an argument or decision making. Yes, I think Tocchet was probably wrong. The number of games he's played and coached has absolutely no bearing on this decision.

The solution for an underperforming scoring right winger is to move him up and down the line up as his play dictates. This allows someone to beat him for the top role, for Kuzmenko to play himself back into the #1RW position or off the team entirely. Tell him what you need and give him opportunity to do it or not do it. A player cannot be evaluated in the pressbox. Frankly I hope he scores 2 tonight so coaches like Tocchet will continue to make bad choices that weaken their lineup more often to prove an empty point. It would be direct correlation and causation, right? Benching equals 2 goals. After all, Tocchet is an expert. He's played the game.

I don't watch every Canucks game but I don't think Tocchet is stupid. Kuzmenko scored 39 goals last year. He's starting a brand new 5.5 mill contract so scratching a guy making that much is kind of a big deal. Having that much money sitting out on purpose hurts your team. So I would assume they talked to him MANY times about things similar to what you said. I am sure they have moved him up and down the lines MANY times. To get to a point you are sitting out a 5.5 mill player is probably a last resort when you have run out of ideas.

So you think that's wrong to sit him out after you have exhausted other things and your idea is to keep talking to him, keep playing him and hope he decides to play how you need him too. Kuzmenko is not a rookie making kid mistakes, he's going to be 28 yrs old. He's a grown man making his own decisions and deciding he doesn't wnat to do what he's told. So what happens when he doesn't change?

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827680 is a reply to message #827679 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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I hope Kuzmenko comes back and still doesn't contribute, leading to future benchings on the Canucks.

The Oil shouldn't, as benching a player for a full game simply doesn't work.
"Benching not only undermines a player's confidence, but it also fails to address the root causes of their performance issues (if there are ongoing issues). Instead of fostering a positive learning environment, it creates fear and anxiety, hindering their ability to grow and improve."
study from RFS performance

You're more likely to 2nd guess your choice, where a top line NHL player should be encouraged to pinch, encouraged to pressure. The more you second guess yourself the less likely you are to do so. How can you show improvement or the implementation of changes from the press box?
You should not bench your top players unless they are an active hindrance (lost their mind mad and going to do something stupid) Even then, only until they can calm down and play the way they need to play.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827684 is a reply to message #827680 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 11:21

I hope Kuzmenko comes back and still doesn't contribute, leading to future benchings on the Canucks.

The Oil shouldn't, as benching a player for a full game simply doesn't work.
"Benching not only undermines a player's confidence, but it also fails to address the root causes of their performance issues (if there are ongoing issues). Instead of fostering a positive learning environment, it creates fear and anxiety, hindering their ability to grow and improve."
study from RFS performance

You're more likely to 2nd guess your choice, where a top line NHL player should be encouraged to pinch, encouraged to pressure. The more you second guess yourself the less likely you are to do so. How can you show improvement or the implementation of changes from the press box?
You should not bench your top players unless they are an active hindrance (lost their mind mad and going to do something stupid) Even then, only until they can calm down and play the way they need to play.

I understand what you are saying and I am 100% not in favor of benching or sitting out a guy when they make 1 mistake. You can't play like that. But when a player does not perform game after game, week after week or keeps doing the same mistake again and again after you have talked to him, shown him and done whatever you can think of to correct the problem and it keeps happening, is there no recourse?

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827686 is a reply to message #827684 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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sure, trade him. If your team is better without him, make a trade for something that does make the team better. 5.5 mil is a lot to pay somebody to eat your popcorn.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827682 is a reply to message #827679 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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PI, Different question. Since you do not agree with scratching a player or benching him when he repeatedly doesn't do as you ask. You feel it's archaic and the player should be worked with over and over and over again in the hopes eventually he will do as the coaches ask.

I don't know what you do for a living, maybe you are your own boss and only answer to yourself and only have yourself to be accountable too. But I work in an office, I manage people. As a boss, I tell employees what I need done and how it needs to get done. I show them how to do it and then give them a chance to complete a task. If the employee doesn't do the task or doesn't do it properly, we give them direction again and show them how to do it again and give them another chance. We typically do this multiple times. If the employee still can't get it done, we will try to reduce their role, give them easier things to do in the hopes they can master the easier tasks then move up. But at some point, if that employee refuses to do what we ask or keeps making the same mistake, consequences happen. We can only give the person so many chances. We can only invest so much time, effort and training into a person before we have to do more drastic consequences. Usually the ultimate consequence is they either get suspended or lose their job all together.

We had an employee we just let go. He was a graduate from a tech school. We hired him in April to work some in the field but mostly in the office doing computer drafting. He didn't have work experience but he took classed in the tech school on the computer program we use. We knew he needed lots of training when he was hired. His station was in what we call our "bullpen". It has other staff members doing similar things to help him. Our drafting coordinator sits right behind him. She was at his desk every single day many times a day helping him. She adjusted her hours so she could come in earlier in order to get some of her own work done because she spent so much of her day beside him. We started him off doing the most simplest drafting we have. He couldn't get it right. Month after month we worked with him. He would do something and would have to do it 3 or 4 times and it still wouldn't be right. Eventually someone else would have to fix it. He got constant direction from our coordinator, other staff, project managers. After 3 months on the job, we had a meeting with him to let him know where he was at and what he needed to work on. We kept him and trained him for 7 months, he didn't improve. Generally in my business, by the end of November, we slow down over the winter so if we are making staffing changes, this is the time. As a management team and after talking with our drafting coordinator, we decided to let him go because the work he produced after 7 months was still very poor and it hindered our drafting team because of the amount of supervision we had to give him to produce drawings that weren't right and had to be fixed by someone else. So it was costing us time and lots of money. So we let him go after many, many chances.

I understand my example is not a hockey team but it's still an example that has relevance because it's of an employee who's not performing as required and who was given many chances to improve, shown how to improve and talked too and the results didn't chance so we had to do something more drastic after exhausting all other avenues. So do you feel how we operate is also archaic? Do you feel it's a requirement of every organization to give their employees endless chances to improve with zero consequences if they don't ever do as they are required?

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827695 is a reply to message #827682 ]
Tue, 28 November 2023 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 11:28

PI, Different question. Since you do not agree with scratching a player or benching him when he repeatedly doesn't do as you ask. You feel it's archaic and the player should be worked with over and over and over again in the hopes eventually he will do as the coaches ask.

I don't know what you do for a living, maybe you are your own boss and only answer to yourself and only have yourself to be accountable too. But I work in an office, I manage people. As a boss, I tell employees what I need done and how it needs to get done. I show them how to do it and then give them a chance to complete a task. If the employee doesn't do the task or doesn't do it properly, we give them direction again and show them how to do it again and give them another chance. We typically do this multiple times. If the employee still can't get it done, we will try to reduce their role, give them easier things to do in the hopes they can master the easier tasks then move up. But at some point, if that employee refuses to do what we ask or keeps making the same mistake, consequences happen. We can only give the person so many chances. We can only invest so much time, effort and training into a person before we have to do more drastic consequences. Usually the ultimate consequence is they either get suspended or lose their job all together.

We had an employee we just let go. He was a graduate from a tech school. We hired him in April to work some in the field but mostly in the office doing computer drafting. He didn't have work experience but he took classed in the tech school on the computer program we use. We knew he needed lots of training when he was hired. His station was in what we call our "bullpen". It has other staff members doing similar things to help him. Our drafting coordinator sits right behind him. She was at his desk every single day many times a day helping him. She adjusted her hours so she could come in earlier in order to get some of her own work done because she spent so much of her day beside him. We started him off doing the most simplest drafting we have. He couldn't get it right. Month after month we worked with him. He would do something and would have to do it 3 or 4 times and it still wouldn't be right. Eventually someone else would have to fix it. He got constant direction from our coordinator, other staff, project managers. After 3 months on the job, we had a meeting with him to let him know where he was at and what he needed to work on. We kept him and trained him for 7 months, he didn't improve. Generally in my business, by the end of November, we slow down over the winter so if we are making staffing changes, this is the time. As a management team and after talking with our drafting coordinator, we decided to let him go because the work he produced after 7 months was still very poor and it hindered our drafting team because of the amount of supervision we had to give him to produce drawings that weren't right and had to be fixed by someone else. So it was costing us time and lots of money. So we let him go after many, many chances.

I understand my example is not a hockey team but it's still an example that has relevance because it's of an employee who's not performing as required and who was given many chances to improve, shown how to improve and talked too and the results didn't chance so we had to do something more drastic after exhausting all other avenues. So do you feel how we operate is also archaic? Do you feel it's a requirement of every organization to give their employees endless chances to improve with zero consequences if they don't ever do as they are required?

I get to deal with a ton of performance issues at work. It's my least favorite part of what I do and most of the time the best solution is to get the person a different supervisor. Once that worker / boss relationship is fractured it rarely recovers. If your company gave clear instructions, timely feedback, opportunity to improve, realistic goals, and proper training and the guy just didn't get it... by all means move on. Sometimes the pieces just don't fit.

But that's not what we're talking about. That would be moving the guy up and down the lineup based on merit and giving extra attention in practice and the film room. The real life workplace equivalent to benching is 'stay home tomorrow and really think about if you want to keep this job'. I've never seen that be used successfully except in safety situations as a last chance mechanism. I can't imagine Kuzmenko is on his last chance.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: 2023-24 OOT Thread [message #827775 is a reply to message #827695 ]
Wed, 29 November 2023 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 28 November 2023 13:00


I get to deal with a ton of performance issues at work. It's my least favorite part of what I do and most of the time the best solution is to get the person a different supervisor. Once that worker / boss relationship is fractured it rarely recovers. If your company gave clear instructions, timely feedback, opportunity to improve, realistic goals, and proper training and the guy just didn't get it... by all means move on. Sometimes the pieces just don't fit.

But that's not what we're talking about. That would be moving the guy up and down the lineup based on merit and giving extra attention in practice and the film room. The real life workplace equivalent to benching is 'stay home tomorrow and really think about if you want to keep this job'. I've never seen that be used successfully except in safety situations as a last chance mechanism. I can't imagine Kuzmenko is on his last chance.


Hard to compare this to a young intern who just doesn’t get it and isn’t able to do the job too. This guy was probably the 4th or 5th best player on the Canucks last year. It would be pretty unusual in a work setting to have that little patience with someone who was just considered a top performer unless something really significant had changed. Think drinking on the job as opposed to a little slump in performance.

You do see players, in essence, fired from their jobs for lack of performance. It tends to happen to those at the bottom of the roster. If you are, to use an old Oilers example, JF Jacques and you have played ~60 games without getting a point then benchings have been well warranted because the team often has 12 forwards better than you and when you’re sent away to the minors or dealt to another team who thinks the size and speed should translate still - that’s the hockey equivalent of termination. Good teams don’t fire their top players.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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