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Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827331]	Mon, 20 November 2023 14:02

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

So there's been a few rumours lately - Jake Allen, Joonas Korpisalo, John Gibson, Juuse Saros. Of those, the one most worth running down is Saros. The first two I've never been sold on. Gibson - hard to judge after years behind bad teams, but is he still where he once was? or has he slipped? I'd want to have a lot of confidence in my goalie scouts if I am making that bet...annnnd the Oilers scouts were comfortable giving $5MM per for 5 years to Jack Campbell...

One possibility that hasn't been addressed but that should be looked at? Boston has Ullmark & Swayman. Both playing very well. Great numbers for both again. Like Gibson, I'd want to know is that the system? Are the Bruins just excellent at suppressing great chances against?

But they have an issue coming with those two. Swayman is in a single year deal paying him $3.475MM. Ullmark makes $5MM per year for this year and next. My guess, given age, is that they're going to prefer Swayman as the goalie of the future. He's likely going to get $5MM+ on a long-term deal after this year - even another bridge deal is likely to be expensive and leave them with over 8-figures tied up in goaltenders. And Swayman has arbitration rights - which stacks the deck for him given his stats the last while! As such, they may be open to dealing Ullmark before then. He's got a 16-team no-trade list, so that could be an issue but maybe playing with McDavid and Draisaitl would be appealing to him.

One of the issues is that the Bruins seem fully committed to sharing the goal and keeping their guys well-rested. If they don't have enough belief in DiPietro or Bussi from their farm team, they might want someone like Skinner back in return. I don't see them happily taking on Campbell no matter what so we might need to LTIR him before we make a deal.

[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2023 14:05]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827336 is a reply to message #827331 ]	Mon, 20 November 2023 16:09

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 14:02

So there's been a few rumours lately - Jake Allen, Joonas Korpisalo, John Gibson, Juuse Saros. Of those, the one most worth running down is Saros. The first two I've never been sold on. Gibson - hard to judge after years behind bad teams, but is he still where he once was? or has he slipped? I'd want to have a lot of confidence in my goalie scouts if I am making that bet...annnnd the Oilers scouts were comfortable giving $5MM per for 5 years to Jack Campbell...

One possibility that hasn't been addressed but that should be looked at? Boston has Ullmark & Swayman. Both playing very well. Great numbers for both again. Like Gibson, I'd want to know is that the system? Are the Bruins just excellent at suppressing great chances against?

But they have an issue coming with those two. Swayman is in a single year deal paying him $3.475MM. Ullmark makes $5MM per year for this year and next. My guess, given age, is that they're going to prefer Swayman as the goalie of the future. He's likely going to get $5MM+ on a long-term deal after this year - even another bridge deal is likely to be expensive and leave them with over 8-figures tied up in goaltenders. And Swayman has arbitration rights - which stacks the deck for him given his stats the last while! As such, they may be open to dealing Ullmark before then. He's got a 16-team no-trade list, so that could be an issue but maybe playing with McDavid and Draisaitl would be appealing to him.

One of the issues is that the Bruins seem fully committed to sharing the goal and keeping their guys well-rested. If they don't have enough belief in DiPietro or Bussi from their farm team, they might want someone like Skinner back in return. I don't see them happily taking on Campbell no matter what so we might need to LTIR him before we make a deal.

This is why you pay a GM $25M over 5 years. So that 3 months into his 5th and final season in the job, he is panicking to trade for a goalie (not because of injury), going into any deal on his knees knowing the other side has him over a barrel. Plus you have absolutely no cap space and can't even have a full roster so you have to max pay as well just to free up any cap space for a move.

Money well spent on Kenny Holland.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827341 is a reply to message #827336 ]	Mon, 20 November 2023 17:07

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 16:09

Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 14:02

So there's been a few rumours lately - Jake Allen, Joonas Korpisalo, John Gibson, Juuse Saros. Of those, the one most worth running down is Saros. The first two I've never been sold on. Gibson - hard to judge after years behind bad teams, but is he still where he once was? or has he slipped? I'd want to have a lot of confidence in my goalie scouts if I am making that bet...annnnd the Oilers scouts were comfortable giving $5MM per for 5 years to Jack Campbell...

One possibility that hasn't been addressed but that should be looked at? Boston has Ullmark & Swayman. Both playing very well. Great numbers for both again. Like Gibson, I'd want to know is that the system? Are the Bruins just excellent at suppressing great chances against?

But they have an issue coming with those two. Swayman is in a single year deal paying him $3.475MM. Ullmark makes $5MM per year for this year and next. My guess, given age, is that they're going to prefer Swayman as the goalie of the future. He's likely going to get $5MM+ on a long-term deal after this year - even another bridge deal is likely to be expensive and leave them with over 8-figures tied up in goaltenders. And Swayman has arbitration rights - which stacks the deck for him given his stats the last while! As such, they may be open to dealing Ullmark before then. He's got a 16-team no-trade list, so that could be an issue but maybe playing with McDavid and Draisaitl would be appealing to him.

One of the issues is that the Bruins seem fully committed to sharing the goal and keeping their guys well-rested. If they don't have enough belief in DiPietro or Bussi from their farm team, they might want someone like Skinner back in return. I don't see them happily taking on Campbell no matter what so we might need to LTIR him before we make a deal.

This is why you pay a GM $25M over 5 years. So that 3 months into his 5th and final season in the job, he is panicking to trade for a goalie (not because of injury), going into any deal on his knees knowing the other side has him over a barrel. Plus you have absolutely no cap space and can't even have a full roster so you have to max pay as well just to free up any cap space for a move.

Money well spent on Kenny Holland.

Just wait until you see what we pay for a Jake Allen-level goaltender!

Best thing for the team? We can always blame Holland for that decision for the next couple years. Same with Connor Brown's money! Next year, whoever is in the chair just complains about how cap limited we are, and blames his predecessor - just like Holland did in his first 2-3 years. The cycle starts anew and you can't really judge a GM on his first few years anyhow, right?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827376 is a reply to message #827341 ]	Mon, 20 November 2023 20:28

nullterm
Messages: 1032
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Connor Brown getting game 10 was the biggest sign management is flailing. After no points in 9 games, he should have been sent to the minors and likely never seen again this season. Nothing against Connor, just the bet didn’t pay out.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827391 is a reply to message #827376 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 07:55

Mike
Messages: 1396
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

nullterm wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 23:28

Connor Brown getting game 10 was the biggest sign management is flailing. After no points in 9 games, he should have been sent to the minors and likely never seen again this season. Nothing against Connor, just the bet didn’t pay out.

Has to be one of the dumbest contracts they've ever signed. For the ludicrous $3.25M bonus which give him his biggest salary in his career after not even playing for almost a full year, but even worse to make the line only 10 games? Why not 40?

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827396 is a reply to message #827391 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 10:47

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 07:55

nullterm wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 23:28

Connor Brown getting game 10 was the biggest sign management is flailing. After no points in 9 games, he should have been sent to the minors and likely never seen again this season. Nothing against Connor, just the bet didn’t pay out.

Has to be one of the dumbest contracts they've ever signed. For the ludicrous $3.25M bonus which give him his biggest salary in his career after not even playing for almost a full year, but even worse to make the line only 10 games? Why not 40?

As bad as that contract is, the decision to play him in his 10th game, with all that money on the line and 0 points to show for the first nine, plus him coming off injury? Just ridiculously stupid. The Oilers deciding to shoot themselves in the foot because they have convinced themselves it's inevitable and they need to do it.

Bonkers that they didn't send him down and see if he would produce in the AHL first before giving him next year's cap space.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827378 is a reply to message #827341 ]	Mon, 20 November 2023 20:51

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 17:07

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 16:09

Adam wrote on Mon, 20 November 2023 14:02

So there's been a few rumours lately - Jake Allen, Joonas Korpisalo, John Gibson, Juuse Saros. Of those, the one most worth running down is Saros. The first two I've never been sold on. Gibson - hard to judge after years behind bad teams, but is he still where he once was? or has he slipped? I'd want to have a lot of confidence in my goalie scouts if I am making that bet...annnnd the Oilers scouts were comfortable giving $5MM per for 5 years to Jack Campbell...

One possibility that hasn't been addressed but that should be looked at? Boston has Ullmark & Swayman. Both playing very well. Great numbers for both again. Like Gibson, I'd want to know is that the system? Are the Bruins just excellent at suppressing great chances against?

But they have an issue coming with those two. Swayman is in a single year deal paying him $3.475MM. Ullmark makes $5MM per year for this year and next. My guess, given age, is that they're going to prefer Swayman as the goalie of the future. He's likely going to get $5MM+ on a long-term deal after this year - even another bridge deal is likely to be expensive and leave them with over 8-figures tied up in goaltenders. And Swayman has arbitration rights - which stacks the deck for him given his stats the last while! As such, they may be open to dealing Ullmark before then. He's got a 16-team no-trade list, so that could be an issue but maybe playing with McDavid and Draisaitl would be appealing to him.

One of the issues is that the Bruins seem fully committed to sharing the goal and keeping their guys well-rested. If they don't have enough belief in DiPietro or Bussi from their farm team, they might want someone like Skinner back in return. I don't see them happily taking on Campbell no matter what so we might need to LTIR him before we make a deal.

This is why you pay a GM $25M over 5 years. So that 3 months into his 5th and final season in the job, he is panicking to trade for a goalie (not because of injury), going into any deal on his knees knowing the other side has him over a barrel. Plus you have absolutely no cap space and can't even have a full roster so you have to max pay as well just to free up any cap space for a move.

Money well spent on Kenny Holland.

Just wait until you see what we pay for a Jake Allen-level goaltender!

Best thing for the team? We can always blame Holland for that decision for the next couple years. Same with Connor Brown's money! Next year, whoever is in the chair just complains about how cap limited we are, and blames his predecessor - just like Holland did in his first 2-3 years. The cycle starts anew and you can't really judge a GM on his first few years anyhow, right?

In fairness to Holland he was left with an absolute cap mess that took two years to clear. The problem is the second he had cap space to spend he spent it on the first shiny player that was available and continued to spend until he created a team as bad as the one he inherited. That is somehow worse against the cap.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827398 is a reply to message #827378 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 12:04]

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827402 is a reply to message #827398 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 13:45]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827405 is a reply to message #827402 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 13:55

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

If the Oilers were about winning I'd agree, but they're not so I'm glad the Oilers have earned another favor from the hockey gods for being good guys.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827406 is a reply to message #827405 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 13:56

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:55

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

If the Oilers were about winning I'd agree, but they're not so I'm glad the Oilers have earned another favor from the hockey gods for being good guys.

True. Holland and the Oilers have done so many solids for various players and GMs around the league. You'd think at some point someone would just gift us a real goalie!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827407 is a reply to message #827402 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827408 is a reply to message #827407 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:20

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

This is a case of two wrongs making a wrong. Signing that players coming off that injury at that price using next year's money was a mistake... an obvious mistake. Keeping him on the roster, irrespective of his bonus status, is probably also a mistake because he's just not playing at an NHL level right now. I concede he could play better at some point this year.

I would agree that keeping him on to get his bonus is the right move if the Oilers were either a Stanley Cup threat this year or it would not hamper them next year AND if they were able to attract free agents now without having to overpay. But since they have to overpay and that Stanley Cup window is fast closing, they should have made the grown up decision to cut their loses. Sunk cost be damned.

Should the wheels truly fall off and they do miss the playoffs, I expect they'll cut salary at the end of the year to get his bonus under the cap.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827411 is a reply to message #827408 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:43

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:20

This is a case of two wrongs making a wrong. Signing that players coming off that injury at that price using next year's money was a mistake... an obvious mistake. Keeping him on the roster, irrespective of his bonus status, is probably also a mistake because he's just not playing at an NHL level right now. I concede he could play better at some point this year.

I would agree that keeping him on to get his bonus is the right move if the Oilers were either a Stanley Cup threat this year or it would not hamper them next year AND if they were able to attract free agents now without having to overpay. But since they have to overpay and that Stanley Cup window is fast closing, they should have made the grown up decision to cut their loses. Sunk cost be damned.

Should the wheels truly fall off and they do miss the playoffs, I expect they'll cut salary at the end of the year to get his bonus under the cap.

I am not for 1 second saying the signing wasn't a big risk. It was and so far, it's not looking too good which is a problem. Now there is still time for him to turn around but right now, it's looking bad.

However, no NHL team is going to screw a guy out of money they agreed too pay him. It's not a bonus, it's part of his salary. If it was a bonus that he had to earn for good play, then you tie it like I said to goals or points or at least make him play most of a season. I don't know what it says in the CBA but it wouldn't shock me if the 10 games he had to play to make his money was the absolute min the CBA would allow. Maybe someone can confirm that for me. Either way, the made the ability to attain that bonus so incredibly easy, it was intended to be paid as part of his salary, it just doesn't count against this years cap. It was a way to legally circumvent this years cap.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827422 is a reply to message #827411 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 16:41

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:43

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:20

This is a case of two wrongs making a wrong. Signing that players coming off that injury at that price using next year's money was a mistake... an obvious mistake. Keeping him on the roster, irrespective of his bonus status, is probably also a mistake because he's just not playing at an NHL level right now. I concede he could play better at some point this year.

I would agree that keeping him on to get his bonus is the right move if the Oilers were either a Stanley Cup threat this year or it would not hamper them next year AND if they were able to attract free agents now without having to overpay. But since they have to overpay and that Stanley Cup window is fast closing, they should have made the grown up decision to cut their loses. Sunk cost be damned.

Should the wheels truly fall off and they do miss the playoffs, I expect they'll cut salary at the end of the year to get his bonus under the cap.

I am not for 1 second saying the signing wasn't a big risk. It was and so far, it's not looking too good which is a problem. Now there is still time for him to turn around but right now, it's looking bad.

However, no NHL team is going to screw a guy out of money they agreed too pay him. It's not a bonus, it's part of his salary. If it was a bonus that he had to earn for good play, then you tie it like I said to goals or points or at least make him play most of a season. I don't know what it says in the CBA but it wouldn't shock me if the 10 games he had to play to make his money was the absolute min the CBA would allow. Maybe someone can confirm that for me. Either way, the made the ability to attain that bonus so incredibly easy, it was intended to be paid as part of his salary, it just doesn't count against this years cap. It was a way to legally circumvent this years cap.

We've seen players feel they got a raw deal from their teams before - many times. It generally isn't an issue for future players, because no one expects to underperform to the point where they're going to put themselves in that position. Lamoriello has always been cold as ice around this stuff - he forced Mogilny and McGillis in to the minors in the first year of the cap. When the league changed the rules so you couldn't just bury contracts, he instead pioneered the LTIR exemptions, telling Lupul that he was damaged beyond repair and he should go away. Somehow, he's still managed to get players in every stop he's in. And that's despite making them sign for below what the PA has expected players to sign for on multiple occasions - he tends to avoid paying rookie bonuses for example, because the rookies have limited bargaining power with him.

No one expects to suck so completely that you end up buried like Campbell, or like Brown should have been. So it won't impact our ability to sign future deals.

And as for players don't care about winning, just money!?! I can't even...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827409 is a reply to message #827407 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:21

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

Jackson is supposed to be looking out for the Oilers now 100%. Katz is probably paying him the highest salary of his life right now to try to stop this team from being embarrassing and it's only become more embarrassing since Jackson was hired. Brown has looked busted, and probably should just be happy to get 800k for what he's accomplished so far. When did the NHL turn into a uncompetitive league where everyone's feelings were more important than trying to win? We keep running things like that, we'll definitely never win anything.

The Oilers got a layup opportunity to try to fix a bad mistake. Someone like Lou would have 100% demoted Brown for the good of the team this year and the next. Our org is run by slackers with zero vision that think their gut feel will always lead to victory.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 14:24]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827410 is a reply to message #827409 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:37

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

Jackson is supposed to be looking out for the Oilers now 100%. Katz is probably paying him the highest salary of his life right now to try to stop this team from being embarrassing and it's only become more embarrassing since Jackson was hired. Brown has looked busted, and probably should just be happy to get 800k for what he's accomplished so far. When did the NHL turn into a uncompetitive league where everyone's feelings were more important than trying to win? We keep running things like that, we'll definitely never win anything.

The Oilers got a layup opportunity to try to fix a bad mistake. Someone like Lou would have 100% demoted Brown for the good of the team this year and the next. Our org is run by slackers with zero vision that think their gut feel will always lead to victory.

Come on man. You are a smart guy, you know it's got nothing to do with hurting people's feelings. You can't seriously believe how a team treats it's players doesn't get talked about around the league and doesn't impact how players think about a team. These guys take into consideration what the dressing room looks like for gawd sake when signing.

The players are human beings, where their personal opinions, what they hear, the reputation of the team, all play a factor in their decision. If a player has comparable offers from the Oilers and someone else and the Oilers screwed another player out of money, of course that will play a factor in them choosing the Oilers.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827412 is a reply to message #827410 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 14:50

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 765
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

except we're back at the argument of, players can also see 0-0-0 on Brown's stat sheet. If you're on a cup competing team, would you want 3.2 mil thrown in a garbage can or used on something that can help.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827413 is a reply to message #827410 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:37

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

Jackson is supposed to be looking out for the Oilers now 100%. Katz is probably paying him the highest salary of his life right now to try to stop this team from being embarrassing and it's only become more embarrassing since Jackson was hired. Brown has looked busted, and probably should just be happy to get 800k for what he's accomplished so far. When did the NHL turn into a uncompetitive league where everyone's feelings were more important than trying to win? We keep running things like that, we'll definitely never win anything.

The Oilers got a layup opportunity to try to fix a bad mistake. Someone like Lou would have 100% demoted Brown for the good of the team this year and the next. Our org is run by slackers with zero vision that think their gut feel will always lead to victory.

Come on man. You are a smart guy, you know it's got nothing to do with hurting people's feelings. You can't seriously believe how a team treats it's players doesn't get talked about around the league and doesn't impact how players think about a team. These guys take into consideration what the dressing room looks like for gawd sake when signing.

The players are human beings, where their personal opinions, what they hear, the reputation of the team, all play a factor in their decision. If a player has comparable offers from the Oilers and someone else and the Oilers screwed another player out of money, of course that will play a factor in them choosing the Oilers.

Honestly, at this point, our management showing they are actually serious about winning might actually draw more interest from players around the league. Our org is probably seen as a joke at this point. Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Jackson dropping the hammer and doing stuff like demoting Brown, and explaining how we can't sacrifice our 24/25 cap space because of poor management (Holland fired already of course), and the Oilers are 100% committed to winning by any means would probably raise some eyebrows, in a good way.

Right now, the view of this org is still just a clown show of friends, with Paul Coffey now to the rescue. It's laughable. No player that pays attention should sign here without a massive overpay because you know you're going into the worst managed team in the league for a decade and a half straight.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827414 is a reply to message #827413 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:21

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Many people are still blind. Here, in the media, in hockey, in the Oilers' organization, everywhere. They simply don't want to see so they keep the blinders on.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827416 is a reply to message #827414 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:32

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:21

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Many people are still blind. Here, in the media, in hockey, in the Oilers' organization, everywhere. They simply don't want to see so they keep the blinders on.

I really hope, at the least, that anyone that actually has skin in the game and is putting their fate into the hands of this org takes a moment to ponder.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827418 is a reply to message #827416 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:44

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:32

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:21

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Many people are still blind. Here, in the media, in hockey, in the Oilers' organization, everywhere. They simply don't want to see so they keep the blinders on.

I really hope, at the least, that anyone that actually has skin in the game and is putting their fate into the hands of this org takes a moment to ponder.

People are still buying tickets, agreeing to work for them, and staking professional reputations that they aren't a terribly run organization. Take Chuck Knoblach (The Knob™) for example. This might be his only chance to be an NHL head coach. Jackson left a good job (I assume) to be Holland's
head babysitter and VP of not pissing off McDavid. I know those roles are big opportunities but I wouldn't go work for the Oilers.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827417 is a reply to message #827413 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:34

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:37

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

Jackson is supposed to be looking out for the Oilers now 100%. Katz is probably paying him the highest salary of his life right now to try to stop this team from being embarrassing and it's only become more embarrassing since Jackson was hired. Brown has looked busted, and probably should just be happy to get 800k for what he's accomplished so far. When did the NHL turn into a uncompetitive league where everyone's feelings were more important than trying to win? We keep running things like that, we'll definitely never win anything.

The Oilers got a layup opportunity to try to fix a bad mistake. Someone like Lou would have 100% demoted Brown for the good of the team this year and the next. Our org is run by slackers with zero vision that think their gut feel will always lead to victory.

Come on man. You are a smart guy, you know it's got nothing to do with hurting people's feelings. You can't seriously believe how a team treats it's players doesn't get talked about around the league and doesn't impact how players think about a team. These guys take into consideration what the dressing room looks like for gawd sake when signing.

The players are human beings, where their personal opinions, what they hear, the reputation of the team, all play a factor in their decision. If a player has comparable offers from the Oilers and someone else and the Oilers screwed another player out of money, of course that will play a factor in them choosing the Oilers.

Honestly, at this point, our management showing they are actually serious about winning might actually draw more interest from players around the league. Our org is probably seen as a joke at this point. Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Jackson dropping the hammer and doing stuff like demoting Brown, and explaining how we can't sacrifice our 24/25 cap space because of poor management (Holland fired already of course), and the Oilers are 100% committed to winning by any means would probably raise some eyebrows, in a good way.

Right now, the view of this org is still just a clown show of friends, with Paul Coffey now to the rescue. It's laughable. No player that pays attention should sign here without a massive overpay because you know you're going into the worst managed team in the league for a decade and a half straight.

Serious question, how much do you actually think winning matters to players? I am not talking just the Oilers, I am talking in general across the league?

Just my opinion but I think the majority of players want to win to a degree, you don't get to the highest league in the world unless you are competitive but this is a business and the most important thing these guys want is to be paid. They want to make as much money as they can and if they win on top of that, even better but make sure they max out on their career earnings. I am not complaining about that, I don't blame them, I would do the same thing if I was in their position. But if money wasn't the most important thing, and all they truly wanted was to win championships while making a decent wage, you'd see them not try to max out their contracts to save some cap space to make their team better.

So if the Oilers decided "sorry Brown, I know we said we'd pay you that 3.25 mill for playing 10 games but after 9 games, you aren't looking too good so down you go. Sucks to be you man, no bonus now." I don't believe for 1 second, players around the league would be going "Oh wow, look at the Oilers, those guys are serious about winning, I want to be with them." They'd be thinking the Oilers organization is a bunch of uncaring A-holes willing to screw over players any chance they get as soon as anything doesn't go perfect.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827420 is a reply to message #827417 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:48

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:34

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 15:12

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:37

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 14:00

Adam wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 13:43

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 12:02

Good luck to your organization in attracting other free agents or resigning guys in the future when you openly go out of your way to screw a player out of money that your organization agreed to pay. By waiving Brown with the intent to make it so he doesn't get the game he needed to earn his bonus, you are purposefully trying to screw him over.

Not to mention, you would be backstabbing your captain and best player who is a friend of Brown's but more importantly, actively recruited Brown, told him how they needed him and how great the organization was to it's players. Brown admitted in an interview on Luke Gazdic's podcast that the reason he picked the Oilers, because he had other teams after him, was because McD took him for dinner and sold him on the team.

Not to mention, Jeff Jackson was Brown's agent. So he would also be tarnishing his reputation among the players around the league as a guy looking to screw players over any chance he gets.

So while I completely understand the concerns over his contract, I have concerns as well, it would have been incredibly stupid of the organization to go out of their way to screw over a player. It's one thing to put a player who's a little banged up but could probably gut it out if he had too, on LTIR. That player doesn't get to play but he gets paid. It's next level to do something to stop a player from earning the money he was promised. That's pretty slimy.

I completely disagree. He wasn't promised that money. It's a bonus.

If someone has bonuses, then they need to earn them. If you don't deserve 10 games on your play, then I think players everywhere can understand that. Everyone can read a stats line of 0-0-0, including a bunch of time spent on lines with some of the top talents in the league. And everyone understands how critical cap space is.

If you need to talk to McDavid about it, it's pretty easy to explain to him too. That $3MM has a lot of value for next year. His junior buddy has contributed nothing towards helping the team win so far. If he goes to the AHL and lights it up, then it would have been a decision to make about whether that player is deserving of another shot. As it is, the Oilers just suited him up in a couple more games, paid him $3.225MM and in an extra 26 minutes of ice time, he's managed 0-0-0 with a single shot.

11 games now. 0-0-0. 14 shots. 0 PiMs. -5. 7 hits. 2 blocked shots. And we've handicapped ourselves for next year by creating over $3MM in dead cap for that.

As for the GM being his agent - he can't show favouritism in his current role for former clients. And the Oilers need to make all these decisions based on merit and logic and what helps the team win a Cup. Not what is nice to a guy because he's a good soldier, or I used to be his agent or he's buddies with the captain.

You couldn't be more wrong.

When you hand out a bonus that is so easy to get, you are intending on pay him that money as part of his years salary. They are using it like the Bruins did last year with Bergeron to basically circumvent the cap. There is a whole list of injuries he could get and still play 10 games and earn that bonus. It's got ZERO to do with earning anything. If you want to make him earn it then you attach it to a certain amount of goals or points or something else more difficult to attain than 10 games.

Jackson is supposed to be looking out for the Oilers now 100%. Katz is probably paying him the highest salary of his life right now to try to stop this team from being embarrassing and it's only become more embarrassing since Jackson was hired. Brown has looked busted, and probably should just be happy to get 800k for what he's accomplished so far. When did the NHL turn into a uncompetitive league where everyone's feelings were more important than trying to win? We keep running things like that, we'll definitely never win anything.

The Oilers got a layup opportunity to try to fix a bad mistake. Someone like Lou would have 100% demoted Brown for the good of the team this year and the next. Our org is run by slackers with zero vision that think their gut feel will always lead to victory.

Come on man. You are a smart guy, you know it's got nothing to do with hurting people's feelings. You can't seriously believe how a team treats it's players doesn't get talked about around the league and doesn't impact how players think about a team. These guys take into consideration what the dressing room looks like for gawd sake when signing.

The players are human beings, where their personal opinions, what they hear, the reputation of the team, all play a factor in their decision. If a player has comparable offers from the Oilers and someone else and the Oilers screwed another player out of money, of course that will play a factor in them choosing the Oilers.

Honestly, at this point, our management showing they are actually serious about winning might actually draw more interest from players around the league. Our org is probably seen as a joke at this point. Doubt many are blind about how this org has been run since Katz took over.

Jackson dropping the hammer and doing stuff like demoting Brown, and explaining how we can't sacrifice our 24/25 cap space because of poor management (Holland fired already of course), and the Oilers are 100% committed to winning by any means would probably raise some eyebrows, in a good way.

Right now, the view of this org is still just a clown show of friends, with Paul Coffey now to the rescue. It's laughable. No player that pays attention should sign here without a massive overpay because you know you're going into the worst managed team in the league for a decade and a half straight.

Serious question, how much do you actually think winning matters to players? I am not talking just the Oilers, I am talking in general across the league?

Just my opinion but I think the majority of players want to win to a degree, you don't get to the highest league in the world unless you are competitive but this is a business and the most important thing these guys want is to be paid. They want to make as much money as they can and if they win on top of that, even better but make sure they max out on their career earnings. I am not complaining about that, I don't blame them, I would do the same thing if I was in their position. But if money wasn't the most important thing, and all they truly wanted was to win championships while making a decent wage, you'd see them not try to max out their contracts to save some cap space to make their team better.

So if the Oilers decided "sorry Brown, I know we said we'd pay you that 3.25 mill for playing 10 games but after 9 games, you aren't looking too good so down you go. Sucks to be you man, no bonus now." I don't believe for 1 second, players around the league would be going "Oh wow, look at the Oilers, those guys are serious about winning, I want to be with them." They'd be thinking the Oilers organization is a bunch of uncaring A-holes willing to screw over players any chance they get as soon as anything doesn't go perfect.

It's not really a concern, because it's extremely rare for a player to be in Brown's situation where he could get a bonus in place of normal salary before he's 35+. We could probably go another couple decades before even considering to bring on a player in that situation. And if they did want to consider us, we ideally would be properly managed and only offer a massive bonus for the player actually accomplishing something, not just being alive on the bench for 10 games.

I think players like winning a lot, especially in a league where you can get around the same money from almost any team. I think you have to be hopelessly optimistic now to think you're going to win much signing with the Oilers with how the team is run. We did have a tiny period of time after McDavid came here were free agents were interested, but we kinda killed it under Chia. It's hard to know much much our overpaying for almost everyone is just Holland's historically terrible negotiating skills or compensation for the Edmonton weather or because this org's operation is a running joke. I think at the least we will know when there is some competent management in place that can eliminate one of the factors. Hopefully one day that happens.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 15:53]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827421 is a reply to message #827417 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 15:51

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 765
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

"Not looking so good" vs "You're so terrible that Jesse PJ, who RDOF hates, was better than you" are very different things.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827425 is a reply to message #827331 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 17:04

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Before you get a goalie.. maybe get some people who can evaluate goalies first.. horse before cart..

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827426 is a reply to message #827425 ]	Tue, 21 November 2023 18:33

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 21 November 2023 17:04

Before you get a goalie.. maybe get some people who can evaluate goalies first.. horse before cart..

Yeah. We are trusting the same people that gave Campbell "Ken Holland money" to find the solution to save our season. See media guys talking about us eyeing the 2nd and 3rd goalies in Montreal behind Allen. Yikes if that is true.

Serevalli suggesting that the cost to move Campbell's contract is a 1st and 3rd. I don't see how that could be true, especially since it would be Holland teams are negotiating with.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2023 18:37]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827449 is a reply to message #827331 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 14:24

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Rumors of Bourgault for Momtembeault from Montreal…

Not very inspiring.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827451 is a reply to message #827449 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 14:29

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 14:24

Rumors of Bourgault for Momtembeault from Montreal…

Not very inspiring.

Yeah ... I really don't want to see what desperate Holland will give up to get a goalie that has never dealt with starter pressure that is supposed to save our season.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827452 is a reply to message #827451 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 14:38

smyth260
Messages: 1080
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

It’s kind of funny that after years of mediocre goalie bets the rumors are swirling of more mediocre goalie bets to get them out of a mediocre goalie bet.

I would pay a lot to get Saros, but if that’s not an option then my next target would be Askarov from Nashville. Doesn’t have NHL games but is a top goalie prospect and Nashville was guaging interest last year. I would much rather bet on a top goalie propsect then some team’s spare mediocre goalie.

[Updated on: Wed, 22 November 2023 14:40]

Clean house or bust

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827454 is a reply to message #827331 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 16:09

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Shaedon @Shae_Nuge93

Dreger said Bourgault for Montembeault could happen…. We passed on Wallstedt to take Bourgault. The Oilers are the worst organization in the world. twitter.com/tsn690/status/…

Bandana Idiot @AdamsOnHockey

Oilers: "we don't need to draft no stinking goalie"
Oilers: trade down out of Wallstedt position to take Bourgault and the 400th best player in the draft
Oilers: oh no our golies r bad
Oilers: trade Bourgault for a goalie with immensely less upside than Wallstedt

Perfection.

Yeah, this team is dumb. Confirmation #45372234 if we make that trade.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827455 is a reply to message #827454 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 16:20

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I assume since so many fans complain about passing on Wallstedt that at just 21 8 days ago, he's ready to be an NHL starter right now?

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827456 is a reply to message #827455 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 16:37

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:20

I assume since so many fans complain about passing on Wallstedt that at just 21 8 days ago, he's ready to be an NHL starter right now?

Lots of up arrows on the player. Doing great in the AHL currently.

As for age of the netminder, I know that there's a bunch of old hockey guys who'll try to convince you that goalies don't become NHL ready until they're way in to their 20s. Of course, that ignores the fact that most of the all-time wins leaders were starting netminders by the time they were 21. Roy, Brodeur, Fuhr, Fleury...the idea that you need several years in the AHL first is patently false. Just another stupid hockey cliche.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827458 is a reply to message #827456 ]	Wed, 22 November 2023 17:18

Kr55
Messages: 10767
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:20

I assume since so many fans complain about passing on Wallstedt that at just 21 8 days ago, he's ready to be an NHL starter right now?

Lots of up arrows on the player. Doing great in the AHL currently.

As for age of the netminder, I know that there's a bunch of old hockey guys who'll try to convince you that goalies don't become NHL ready until they're way in to their 20s. Of course, that ignores the fact that most of the all-time wins leaders were starting netminders by the time they were 21. Roy, Brodeur, Fuhr, Fleury...the idea that you need several years in the AHL first is patently false. Just another stupid hockey cliche.

And you could far more easily trade Wallstedt right now in a package for a real starter than you could Bourgault who is struggling in the AHL. In such a desperate situation, Wallstedt would be far far more valuable right now.

Asset management, I would have a hard time picking a team that has been consistently worse than us. Holland just fail after fail in the draft, especially the first round. This was supposed to be the thing he could do well for us, at the very very least. Mr. Multiple HHoF picks in the 7th round, master of over-ripening. Just garbage, which sadly was a continuation from his last years with the wings and totally predictable.

[Updated on: Wed, 22 November 2023 17:22]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827551 is a reply to message #827456 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 08:49

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:20

I assume since so many fans complain about passing on Wallstedt that at just 21 8 days ago, he's ready to be an NHL starter right now?

Lots of up arrows on the player. Doing great in the AHL currently.

As for age of the netminder, I know that there's a bunch of old hockey guys who'll try to convince you that goalies don't become NHL ready until they're way in to their 20s. Of course, that ignores the fact that most of the all-time wins leaders were starting netminders by the time they were 21. Roy, Brodeur, Fuhr, Fleury...the idea that you need several years in the AHL first is patently false. Just another stupid hockey cliche.

Simple question for you Adam. Why can't you show me any kind of decency as a human being? I've backed off. I barely comment on anything you say anymore on purpose. The amount I post, i've tapered back. Why do you feel the need to be a prick and take shots at me anytime I say anything, is your problem?

I don't watch AHL games from the Minnesota Wild OK. Maybe you do, I don't. So I know very little about the guy. I simply asked a question because everyone raves about him and I don't know much about him. That's it. Why was is necessary for you to take another shot at me and make it seem like I am just some dumb, old hockey guy that doesn't know anything? I'd like to know what the reason was for.

My comment about his age was based solely on the fact that the majority of goalies drafted typically are barely starting their pro careers at just turned 21. Lots are still either in college or barely out of junior. You rarely see a goalie at barely 21 in the NHL let alone as a starter. So I was asking the question.

So what is your problem with me? If you don't want to do it here, I am coming up for the game on Tuesday and I got no problem meeting someone face to face.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827554 is a reply to message #827551 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 11:00

Mike
Messages: 1396
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:49

I am coming up for the game on Tuesday and I got no problem meeting someone face to face.

Don't think he'll be at the game Tuesday - I think he will be at Disneyland Paris Tuesday (and Monday) I will also be at Disneyland Paris on Monday, so I can say hi to him for you if you like icon_biggrin

icon_biggrin

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827555 is a reply to message #827554 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 11:13

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Mike wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 11:49

I am coming up for the game on Tuesday and I got no problem meeting someone face to face.

Don't think he'll be at the game Tuesday - I think he will be at Disneyland Paris Tuesday (and Monday) I will also be at Disneyland Paris on Monday, so I can say hi to him for you if you like icon_biggrin

icon_biggrin

Enjoy your time there. I love Disney. Just don't look at the credit card statement until you are home. icon_lol

icon_lol

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827570 is a reply to message #827555 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 15:15

NZ Oiler Fan
Messages: 1188
Registered: October 2006
Location: Kensington, PEI

1 Cup

Much as a good goalie would help, if we keep giving up 10 bell chances multiple times a game, there's only so much a quality goalie can do to bail you out. Our problems lie far deeper than that, unfortunately.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827571 is a reply to message #827570 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 15:31

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 15:15

Much as a good goalie would help, if we keep giving up 10 bell chances multiple times a game, there's only so much a quality goalie can do to bail you out. Our problems lie far deeper than that, unfortunately.

They need 2 NHL level defenders but it sure sounds like they're getting a washed up forward and a shot in the dark goalie. It's the perfect thing to overpay for. I honestly can't wait. The fans are being primed so hard to lose another trade right.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Gotta Get a Goalie! [message #827578 is a reply to message #827551 ]	Thu, 23 November 2023 16:43

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 23 November 2023 08:49

Adam wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:37

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 22 November 2023 16:20

I assume since so many fans complain about passing on Wallstedt that at just 21 8 days ago, he's ready to be an NHL starter right now?

Lots of up arrows on the player. Doing great in the AHL currently.

As for age of the netminder, I know that there's a bunch of old hockey guys who'll try to convince you that goalies don't become NHL ready until they're way in to their 20s. Of course, that ignores the fact that most of the all-time wins leaders were starting netminders by the time they were 21. Roy, Brodeur, Fuhr, Fleury...the idea that you need several years in the AHL first is patently false. Just another stupid hockey cliche.

Simple question for you Adam. Why can't you show me any kind of decency as a human being? I've backed off. I barely comment on anything you say anymore on purpose. The amount I post, i've tapered back. Why do you feel the need to be a prick and take shots at me anytime I say anything, is your problem?

I don't watch AHL games from the Minnesota Wild OK. Maybe you do, I don't. So I know very little about the guy. I simply asked a question because everyone raves about him and I don't know much about him. That's it. Why was is necessary for you to take another shot at me and make it seem like I am just some dumb, old hockey guy that doesn't know anything? I'd like to know what the reason was for.

My comment about his age was based solely on the fact that the majority of goalies drafted typically are barely starting their pro careers at just turned 21. Lots are still either in college or barely out of junior. You rarely see a goalie at barely 21 in the NHL let alone as a starter. So I was asking the question.

So what is your problem with me? If you don't want to do it here, I am coming up for the game on Tuesday and I got no problem meeting someone face to face.

As Mike says, I'm not around this week. However, I will say, I do not know what you are talking about. I really didn't take any personal shots at you there. I said that the relatively wide-spread erroneous belief that goalies need to be older before they make the league isn't actually based on real facts - just narrative from guys like Stauffer and Matheson and Jones and Spector and their clones across the league. There are lots of goalies who play in the league at a younger age and excel. Same with defencemen - another group where this mythology exists.

I think you see me disagreeing with you as a personal thing - I really don't. I have a different opinion and I am expressing it. I believe I'm right (I often am) so I'm pretty confident in defending my point of view. But it's never about you. I think the fact that you tend to echo some of these old hockey theories tends to make you more likely than most to get my reply - but I encourage you, as always, to not take any of this too seriously. It's talking about a sport. A frustrating one, no doubt, but just a sport. In the overall scheme of things, it's pretty little.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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