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What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826541]	Thu, 02 November 2023 22:46

HamBlaster
Messages: 989
Registered: June 2007

No Cups

I know this is likely an unpopular opinion, however the reality is that Woodcroft is getting a shorter and shorter rope. If the Oilers continue to fail it will likely result in Woody getting fired in an effort to try to motivate this team to achieve. This is such a huge year for the squad and it's an abomination to see them start this way. Ownership and upper management will want heads to roll, if this continues.

If that happens, what type of coaching archetype do you think comes in as a replacement?

And who, of that archetype, is available?

Again, another likely unpopular opinion here... however I think the Oilers reach out to one of the more notorious hard***es out there in Joel Quenneville. You know he'll be back at some point, considering how long he's been in the league. He won't want to end his career the way he left Chicago, and some team will be desperate enough to bring both he and his baggage onboard.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826546 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 08:45

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I also heard last night (third hand info!) that Woody is on the block. It'll be a shame, but that's the cycle of an Oilers employee who isn't part of the chosen ones. I don't think any coach can come in and fix this team. The other players simply aren't good enough for McDavid to make them into contenders. He might be able to drag them through the playoffs for a few rounds again, but there's a certain inevitability at play here.

I hope the next coach is a real max effort / go hard personality type. An old school coach who yells at the team and the refs and the media. A true banger who appreciates skating fast and hitting hard. If I don't get to watch the Oilers win I hope I get to watch the 'play with determination and try harder' narrative die.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826547 is a reply to message #826546 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 09:21

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Would you say... a MacT type?

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826549 is a reply to message #826547 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 09:31

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 03 November 2023 09:21

Would you say... a MacT type?

Start. The. Blender.

The interim choice is so obvious it never even occurred to me.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826572 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 18:35

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

HamBlaster wrote on Thu, 02 November 2023 21:46

If that happens, what type of coaching archetype do you think comes in as a replacement?

And who, of that archetype, is available?

Again, another likely unpopular opinion here... however I think the Oilers reach out to one of the more notorious hard***es out there in Joel Quenneville. You know he'll be back at some point, considering how long he's been in the league. He won't want to end his career the way he left Chicago, and some team will be desperate enough to bring both he and his baggage onboard.

I think coaches (and management/government in general) is best run in a long term of cycles between one end of the spectrum and the other.

Woody seemed like he was a player's coach that was able to let the horses run... and now we're at a point where that's not enough from a team perspective. And his staff seems unable to adapt, especially defensively.

I think we need someone that is gonna push the roster from the bottom up, and also get some better defensive structure in place. We need the bottom six to contribute, and the defence to not whither apart. I'm not sure that's a player's coach, that's someone with higher expectations and accountability of his players. And that can look at a game situation and be smarter about reading what's happening on the ice and adjusting his gameplan accordingly.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826573 is a reply to message #826572 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 18:49

NetBOG
Messages: 2951
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

nullterm wrote on Fri, 03 November 2023 18:35

HamBlaster wrote on Thu, 02 November 2023 21:46

If that happens, what type of coaching archetype do you think comes in as a replacement?

And who, of that archetype, is available?

Again, another likely unpopular opinion here... however I think the Oilers reach out to one of the more notorious hard***es out there in Joel Quenneville. You know he'll be back at some point, considering how long he's been in the league. He won't want to end his career the way he left Chicago, and some team will be desperate enough to bring both he and his baggage onboard.

I think coaches (and management/government in general) is best run in a long term of cycles between one end of the spectrum and the other.

Woody seemed like he was a player's coach that was able to let the horses run... and now we're at a point where that's not enough from a team perspective. And his staff seems unable to adapt, especially defensively.

I think we need someone that is gonna push the roster from the bottom up, and also get some better defensive structure in place. We need the bottom six to contribute, and the defence to not whither apart. I'm not sure that's a player's coach, that's someone with higher expectations and accountability of his players. And that can look at a game situation and be smarter about reading what's happening on the ice and adjusting his gameplan accordingly.

They shouldn't hire the dick coach until the big boys sign their extensions. Everything for the next 2 years will be about keeping them happy and comfortable. Same reason Brown will continue to get his minutes.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826575 is a reply to message #826573 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 20:34

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

NetBOG wrote on Fri, 03 November 2023 17:49

nullterm wrote on Fri, 03 November 2023 18:35

HamBlaster wrote on Thu, 02 November 2023 21:46

If that happens, what type of coaching archetype do you think comes in as a replacement?

And who, of that archetype, is available?

Again, another likely unpopular opinion here... however I think the Oilers reach out to one of the more notorious hard***es out there in Joel Quenneville. You know he'll be back at some point, considering how long he's been in the league. He won't want to end his career the way he left Chicago, and some team will be desperate enough to bring both he and his baggage onboard.

I think coaches (and management/government in general) is best run in a long term of cycles between one end of the spectrum and the other.

Woody seemed like he was a player's coach that was able to let the horses run... and now we're at a point where that's not enough from a team perspective. And his staff seems unable to adapt, especially defensively.

I think we need someone that is gonna push the roster from the bottom up, and also get some better defensive structure in place. We need the bottom six to contribute, and the defence to not whither apart. I'm not sure that's a player's coach, that's someone with higher expectations and accountability of his players. And that can look at a game situation and be smarter about reading what's happening on the ice and adjusting his gameplan accordingly.

They shouldn't hire the dick coach until the big boys sign their extensions. Everything for the next 2 years will be about keeping them happy and comfortable. Same reason Brown will continue to get his minutes.

If the team wins, I don’t think McDavid or Draisatl complain. McDavid seems like he was born to be a little pissy, so having a hard coach might be right up his alley as long as he sees that the other players take their job more seriously and actually compete.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826577 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Fri, 03 November 2023 21:05

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Holland should not be allowed to hire another coach. He has to go before we even consider firing Woody.

A hardarse coach this time around could be good. Not an actual evil person like Babcock, but someone that has shown they can force a good effort out of players without playing mind games.

Holland won't get that kind of coach though. He's probably thinking Babcock right now. How could he not be? The fallback is always what worked for him in Detroit.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 November 2023 21:06]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826579 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Sat, 04 November 2023 06:13

g2k
Messages: 2840
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

Gerard Gallant.

Read the first paragraph. Not saying he’s the guy, but he’s different than Woodcroft, Tippett and McLellan. Short shelf life, but seems to get the most out of his teams.

https://nypost.com/2021/06/22/gerard-gallant-makes-his-range rs-mission-crystal-clear/

[Updated on: Sat, 04 November 2023 07:08]

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826580 is a reply to message #826579 ]	Sat, 04 November 2023 10:04

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

g2k wrote on Sat, 04 November 2023 06:13

Gerard Gallant.

Read the first paragraph. Not saying he’s the guy, but he’s different than Woodcroft, Tippett and McLellan. Short shelf life, but seems to get the most out of his teams.

https://nypost.com/2021/06/22/gerard-gallant-makes-his-range rs-mission-crystal-clear/

Think Galant is a everyone have a super fun time attacking and rely on the goalie to cover all night long coach. Don't think he coaches much of a system and he's always needed a goalie doing backflips in net. Not sure we have the lineup for it.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826628 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Sun, 05 November 2023 12:18

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

I'd be looking for someone who has demonstrated tactical competence. Assessing roster strengths and weaknesses, developing strategy, achieving buy in, ACCOUNTABILITY, and importantly making adjustments given your opponents' strategy, between games and within games. I dont know the dynamics or the individual job descriptions of this staff, but it's diificult to see other than the PP, where the staff is delivering. Given who they can put out there on PP1, that's probably not saying much either. Who is that coach, who remains on staff? Do you let Holland, who delivered Campbell, is on the cusp of giving Connor Brown 3+ million of cap next year for 9 games of nothing so far, plus, plus make these decisions. Are the Oilers internally waiting for the 20 game mark to do anything?

What staggers me as of today is given several years on the record, why the very easiest move, the replacement of Dustin Schwartz with a different voice/mentorship has NOT happened. That news could have come in the Koskinen era. It could certainly have come last year when Campbell was absent as a viable option for most of the season, before Skinner finally fell to his mean and succumbed. Why not have an alternative in your back pocket and do that today?

There's also a really good argument terms of why the Oilers would let Ken Holland still make the above calls. There's definitely some paralysis going on right now, as they struggle to identify what all is going on, who do your give the benefit of doubt to.....do they think its just goaltending? If so, why haven't they at least already changed that coach? Inability to make the goalie personnel move, Skinner's stock down, dollars in, dollars out due to cap. What a mess.

[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2023 13:10]

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826629 is a reply to message #826628 ]	Sun, 05 November 2023 13:18

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 12:18

There's also a really good argument terms of why the Oilers would let Ken Holland still make the above calls. There's definitely some paralysis going on right now, as they struggle to identify what all is going on, who do your give the benefit of doubt to.....do they think its just goaltending? If so, why haven't they at least already changed that coach? Inability to make the goalie personnel move, Skinner's stock down, dollars in, dollars out due to cap. What a mess.

Almost top to bottom we have an org run by guys that got all their success by having a lucky starting point, either drafting multiple hall of fame players in late rounds (I'm sure that was intentional, letting all other teams have 7 chances to draft hall of fame players before Holland), or landing onto a dynasty team created by Sather with Gretzky and Messier. But the kicker is, none of these guys have ever acknowledged that the vast majority of their success was just luck. The overconfidence in their abilities will continue until the day they die. Katz being a fan boy and being a true believer they can build a winner has just reenforced their inflated confidence and that doesn't seem like it'll ever end.

Summary, we screwed. And all the people in charge can probably think to do now is blame everyone but themselves. It's the players fault. If woody is fired, it's the players fault as well of course. Team is run by brilliant minds that know how to win, if the team fails, the players did not live up to what they were supposed to do. Chokers, slackers, deserve the punishment of not being allowed to be an Oiler anymore.

[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2023 13:21]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826633 is a reply to message #826629 ]	Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826634 is a reply to message #826633 ]	Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826635 is a reply to message #826634 ]	Sun, 05 November 2023 23:21

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I love that people in the organization are communicating with (non-right's holding) media to the point where Rishaug feels comfortable openly setting odds for the coach's firing. Meanwhile perspective coaches around the continent are salivating over the possibility they'll be responsible for teaching McDavid to be defensively responsible.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826638 is a reply to message #826634 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 08:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I don't care if the next coach is an A hole. Get a guy that can win some freaking games. They got rid of McLellan who wasn't a mean guy but probably more demanding than Woody. He apparently was a bad coach according to some, goes to the Kings and just wins. Tippett was a defensive guy who wasn't a mean guy and they punted him after not that long. They bring in nice guy, young, energetic, Ned Flanders he's everyones buddy, stick up for the players Woody and they can't win now. AND the same crap that the players did under McLellan is still here.

So maybe they need someone who is demanding to get these guys to do what they are supposed too and if they don't sit them on the bench.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826639 is a reply to message #826638 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 08:31

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:26

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I don't care if the next coach is an A hole. Get a guy that can win some freaking games. They got rid of McLellan who wasn't a mean guy but probably more demanding than Woody. He apparently was a bad coach according to some, goes to the Kings and just wins. Tippett was a defensive guy who wasn't a mean guy and they punted him after not that long. They bring in nice guy, young, energetic, Ned Flanders he's everyones buddy, stick up for the players Woody and they can't win now. AND the same crap that the players did under McLellan is still here.

So maybe they need someone who is demanding to get these guys to do what they are supposed too and if they don't sit them on the bench.

Maybe it is hasn't been the coaches?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826641 is a reply to message #826639 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 08:56

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:26

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I don't care if the next coach is an A hole. Get a guy that can win some freaking games. They got rid of McLellan who wasn't a mean guy but probably more demanding than Woody. He apparently was a bad coach according to some, goes to the Kings and just wins. Tippett was a defensive guy who wasn't a mean guy and they punted him after not that long. They bring in nice guy, young, energetic, Ned Flanders he's everyones buddy, stick up for the players Woody and they can't win now. AND the same crap that the players did under McLellan is still here.

So maybe they need someone who is demanding to get these guys to do what they are supposed too and if they don't sit them on the bench.

Maybe it is hasn't been the coaches?

I agree, I don't think it's the coaches but you can't swap out 20 players so whatever can you do?

The top players on the Oilers, the guys who have been here the whole time and make up the leadership core, who wear all the letters, who get all the ice time, they still do stupid crap. They still blow coverages, miss assignments, don't back check, don't tie up their guys, cheat for offense, don't get into shooting lanes, do hope passes, stay out for long shifts, go down the list. You can accept the fact that no one is perfect and everyone will make a mistake from time to time but when it happens over and over again, game after game, that's not just a guy making the odd mistakes, those are players choosing not to do their job. They did it when McLellan was here and you could say "they are just young and learning" when they aren't young anymore.

Even the "younger" players now. Bouchard as an example. How many times does he have to be told not to do all the stupid defensive mistakes he does. McLeod has sucked. How many times does he have to be told you have to go to the freaking net.

I am all for firing who ever. Fire Holland, go for it. He's done at the end of the year anyway but go ahead and fire him right now because how they have started, how they are playing, is unacceptable and something needs to happen. But the only thing I question is how does that impact on ice right now? They need to flat out play better right now. So will firing Holland get Bouchard to finally pick up a freaking man instead of letting him cruise through the slot and fire it in. OR get Leon to stop flinging pucks blindly across ice. Or McLeod to got to the freaking net and stop playing like a wussy or pick which ever player who doesn't backcheck hard every time and get him to do that or the goalies to stop a freaking puck!

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826644 is a reply to message #826641 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 11:15

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:56

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:26

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I don't care if the next coach is an A hole. Get a guy that can win some freaking games. They got rid of McLellan who wasn't a mean guy but probably more demanding than Woody. He apparently was a bad coach according to some, goes to the Kings and just wins. Tippett was a defensive guy who wasn't a mean guy and they punted him after not that long. They bring in nice guy, young, energetic, Ned Flanders he's everyones buddy, stick up for the players Woody and they can't win now. AND the same crap that the players did under McLellan is still here.

So maybe they need someone who is demanding to get these guys to do what they are supposed too and if they don't sit them on the bench.

Maybe it is hasn't been the coaches?

I agree, I don't think it's the coaches but you can't swap out 20 players so whatever can you do?

The top players on the Oilers, the guys who have been here the whole time and make up the leadership core, who wear all the letters, who get all the ice time, they still do stupid crap. They still blow coverages, miss assignments, don't back check, don't tie up their guys, cheat for offense, don't get into shooting lanes, do hope passes, stay out for long shifts, go down the list. You can accept the fact that no one is perfect and everyone will make a mistake from time to time but when it happens over and over again, game after game, that's not just a guy making the odd mistakes, those are players choosing not to do their job. They did it when McLellan was here and you could say "they are just young and learning" when they aren't young anymore.

Even the "younger" players now. Bouchard as an example. How many times does he have to be told not to do all the stupid defensive mistakes he does. McLeod has sucked. How many times does he have to be told you have to go to the freaking net.

I am all for firing who ever. Fire Holland, go for it. He's done at the end of the year anyway but go ahead and fire him right now because how they have started, how they are playing, is unacceptable and something needs to happen. But the only thing I question is how does that impact on ice right now? They need to flat out play better right now. So will firing Holland get Bouchard to finally pick up a freaking man instead of letting him cruise through the slot and fire it in. OR get Leon to stop flinging pucks blindly across ice. Or McLeod to got to the freaking net and stop playing like a wussy or pick which ever player who doesn't backcheck hard every time and get him to do that or the goalies to stop a freaking puck!

There's a strong likelihood the players assembled by Holland simply are who they are. That they're not making mistakes, they're just not good enough. So you fire Holland now because he simply hasn't done his job AND to positively impact the future. The sad reality is there's a time lag between GM decision and results in the cap world NHL. The window for this move might have already closed. That's impossible to know though.

I wouldn't fire the coach for the reason you said. The new coach can't change the players. Sadly, I think the Oilers management believe the team is suffering a problem of effort and determination. I do think they will fire the coach in hopes that the players will magically get better.

Bring on Torts!

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826647 is a reply to message #826644 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 11:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:56

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:31

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 08:26

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 23:02

nullterm wrote on Sun, 05 November 2023 22:57

Karman Gill
@Kgill39
Ryan Rishaug reporting on TSN that there’s around a 7.5-8/10 chance that Jay Woodcroft is fired. Alot is riding on the Edmonton Oilers 3 game roadtrip #TSN #Oilers @yegsportstalk
@TomGazzola
https://twitter.com/Kgill39/status/1721278486600655192

First actions under Jackson could end up being quite a clown show.

They gonna hire the biggest A-hole coach they can find to try to punish the players? Holland probably stumping for Babcock right now.

I don't care if the next coach is an A hole. Get a guy that can win some freaking games. They got rid of McLellan who wasn't a mean guy but probably more demanding than Woody. He apparently was a bad coach according to some, goes to the Kings and just wins. Tippett was a defensive guy who wasn't a mean guy and they punted him after not that long. They bring in nice guy, young, energetic, Ned Flanders he's everyones buddy, stick up for the players Woody and they can't win now. AND the same crap that the players did under McLellan is still here.

So maybe they need someone who is demanding to get these guys to do what they are supposed too and if they don't sit them on the bench.

Maybe it is hasn't been the coaches?

I agree, I don't think it's the coaches but you can't swap out 20 players so whatever can you do?

The top players on the Oilers, the guys who have been here the whole time and make up the leadership core, who wear all the letters, who get all the ice time, they still do stupid crap. They still blow coverages, miss assignments, don't back check, don't tie up their guys, cheat for offense, don't get into shooting lanes, do hope passes, stay out for long shifts, go down the list. You can accept the fact that no one is perfect and everyone will make a mistake from time to time but when it happens over and over again, game after game, that's not just a guy making the odd mistakes, those are players choosing not to do their job. They did it when McLellan was here and you could say "they are just young and learning" when they aren't young anymore.

Even the "younger" players now. Bouchard as an example. How many times does he have to be told not to do all the stupid defensive mistakes he does. McLeod has sucked. How many times does he have to be told you have to go to the freaking net.

I am all for firing who ever. Fire Holland, go for it. He's done at the end of the year anyway but go ahead and fire him right now because how they have started, how they are playing, is unacceptable and something needs to happen. But the only thing I question is how does that impact on ice right now? They need to flat out play better right now. So will firing Holland get Bouchard to finally pick up a freaking man instead of letting him cruise through the slot and fire it in. OR get Leon to stop flinging pucks blindly across ice. Or McLeod to got to the freaking net and stop playing like a wussy or pick which ever player who doesn't backcheck hard every time and get him to do that or the goalies to stop a freaking puck!

There's a strong likelihood the players assembled by Holland simply are who they are. That they're not making mistakes, they're just not good enough. So you fire Holland now because he simply hasn't done his job AND to positively impact the future. The sad reality is there's a time lag between GM decision and results in the cap world NHL. The window for this move might have already closed. That's impossible to know though.

I wouldn't fire the coach for the reason you said. The new coach can't change the players. Sadly, I think the Oilers management believe the team is suffering a problem of effort and determination. I do think they will fire the coach in hopes that the players will magically get better.

Bring on Torts!

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

The team's culture over the last 15 years has been defined by their refusal to hold anyone at a management level responsible on any consistent basis. Holland's failure here is pretty staggering. He backed himself in to a corner, then didn't make any moves to patch any holes this summer, thinking that the same roster plus Connor Brown would somehow make this team capable of winning a Stanley Cup. He's also set the bar on Brown's bonus so low that the team can't play the guy (with no points, 13 shots, -5 in nine games) any more without destroying next year's cap. If that's not a firing offence, then what is?

Next coach is a big commitment, since most won't come here on interim tag. If you're talking about hiring a guy to be the coach for the next 3-4 years, is there any sense in letting the current dead-man-walking GM be the guy to make that call? And there's even less sense in just firing Woodcroft so that an assistant can run the bench. That isn't going to likely create a lot of change or improvement - just appeases a few fans which should NOT be the goal of the exercise.

The other thing about a GM change is that we need to make some potentially difficult cap-related moves in order to turn this thing around and allow us to now, late, go get a better goaltender. If Holland has shown us anything it's that he's incapable of cap creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. He's got to go.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826649 is a reply to message #826647 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 12:50

Skoobz
Messages: 334
Registered: January 2006

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[quote title=Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31]

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 11:15

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

There is a zero percent chance that HHOF-bound Ken Holland gets fired in his final season by an OBC org like the Oilers. I assume Coffey is the next guy anyway, so it's just deck chairs on the Titanic.

"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826653 is a reply to message #826649 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:06

Adam
Messages: 7176
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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Skoobz wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

There is a zero percent chance that HHOF-bound Ken Holland gets fired in his final season by an OBC org like the Oilers. I assume Coffey is the next guy anyway, so it's just deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hey, Coffey managed his kids team until he got turfed for some kind of slur, so who's to say he doesn't have the requisite experience to run a professional hockey team in the highest league?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826654 is a reply to message #826653 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:18

Skoobz
Messages: 334
Registered: January 2006

No Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:06

Skoobz wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

There is a zero percent chance that HHOF-bound Ken Holland gets fired in his final season by an OBC org like the Oilers. I assume Coffey is the next guy anyway, so it's just deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hey, Coffey managed his kids team until he got turfed for some kind of slur, so who's to say he doesn't have the requisite experience to run a professional hockey team in the highest league?

Man, we're effed.

"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826655 is a reply to message #826654 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:21

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
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Skoobz wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:18

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:06

Skoobz wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

There is a zero percent chance that HHOF-bound Ken Holland gets fired in his final season by an OBC org like the Oilers. I assume Coffey is the next guy anyway, so it's just deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hey, Coffey managed his kids team until he got turfed for some kind of slur, so who's to say he doesn't have the requisite experience to run a professional hockey team in the highest league?

Man, we're effed.

Yup!

Fun fact: the Oilers are Cup favorites!

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826664 is a reply to message #826653 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 16:53

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:06

Skoobz wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:50

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:31

I think it would be really positive to fire the GM, because it would show that results actually matter to this hockey team, much more so than the legacy of some fossil who's done next to nothing in the 20 or so weeks he's worked the last five years, collecting $25MM for that minimal effort.

There is a zero percent chance that HHOF-bound Ken Holland gets fired in his final season by an OBC org like the Oilers. I assume Coffey is the next guy anyway, so it's just deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hey, Coffey managed his kids team until he got turfed for some kind of slur, so who's to say he doesn't have the requisite experience to run a professional hockey team in the highest league?

I can't believe Coffey weaseled his way into being Lowe 2.0. When will we run out of these guys? Seemed like we were so close with Lowe and MacT gone (assuming Lowe actually has stepped away from any hockey stuff), but then Coffey just pops up out of the fog of the OBC glory day memories.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 November 2023 16:55]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826666 is a reply to message #826664 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 18:35

CrusaderPi
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Location: AB Highway 100

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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 16:53

I can't believe Coffey weaseled his way into being Lowe 2.0. When will we run out of these guys? Seemed like we were so close with Lowe and MacT gone (assuming Lowe actually has stepped away from any hockey stuff), but then Coffey just pops up out of the fog of the OBC glory day memories.

I saw some talking head ask Coffey during Heritage Classic day why there wasn't an old timers games that weekend. He said something about being too old. I agree with that, watching the glory days Oilers skate around would be a form of elder abuse at this point but if you're selling the event as the 20th anniversary of the original game there's a whole group of guys from the copper and blue era that I'd love to see again. Imagine a game between the copper and blue Oilers and that era of Dallas Stars (who were in town that week). There's a large demographic of people that wasn't old enough for the glory years who now make enough money to pay for some nostalgia still in Edmonton.

I also can't imagine why they didn't let the Oil Kings or Bears or Oooks or Griffins or Crusaders or SSAC play some games there.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826650 is a reply to message #826647 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 12:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I think a shot across the bow to the players, especially the core needs to happen. As I said, I think there is enough talent on the team to be a lot better than they are playing. If a person doesn't like the Brown signing, that's fine. Brown getting off to a slow start isn't the reason the Oilers aren't doing well. The majority of the team, that includes their best players, aren't playing well.

Making a big trade in the NHL doesn't happen very often in mid season. There isn't going to be a waiver claim that will impact the season. There aren't players on the farm that will suddenly dramatically improve the play of other players. Lavoie is now up but in reality, if he came up 3 or 4 games earlier, it wouldn't have impacted the team that much.

I think the only move they can make that would #1 send a shock wave through the team and #2 you could bring up a guy from the AHL that could not be worse is you waive Campbell and bring up Pickard.

- He has a modified no trade and that 5 mill with years left, no one is taking him mostly for cap reasons. If you could find a trade partner, it's going to cost you a ton right now to move him. So you could waive.

- You call up Pickard. Pickard Has good numbers in the minors. He's got NHL experience. He's probably not a full time NHL goalie but I doubt he could be any worse than Campbell. You might get a guy who'd be pumped to be back in the NHL. Maybe his excited energy would rub off on the team. Maybe you get a few good starts out of him, we'd seen it happen to other guys on other teams when a goalie gets called up. He could be capable of being a back up for a short time.

- Maybe you get lucky and someone picks up Campbell. It won't happen so you'd get just over 1 mill in cap relief, most of it would be taken up my Pickard but you'd get a little more cap space.

- Campbell can go down and work on his game at lower levels. Maybe you get lucky and he finds himself.

- The main thing it would do is send a shock to the players. He's well liked. He's a higher priced guy. Yes part of his problem is he hasn't made enough saves but also the team hasn't played great either. I have to think they would feel pretty bad for being part of the reason Campbell got sent down. Maybe it gets them going.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826652 is a reply to message #826650 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:05

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:59

I think a shot across the bow to the players, especially the core needs to happen. As I said, I think there is enough talent on the team to be a lot better than they are playing. If a person doesn't like the Brown signing, that's fine. Brown getting off to a slow start isn't the reason the Oilers aren't doing well. The majority of the team, that includes their best players, aren't playing well.

Making a big trade in the NHL doesn't happen very often in mid season. There isn't going to be a waiver claim that will impact the season. There aren't players on the farm that will suddenly dramatically improve the play of other players. Lavoie is now up but in reality, if he came up 3 or 4 games earlier, it wouldn't have impacted the team that much.

I think the only move they can make that would #1 send a shock wave through the team and #2 you could bring up a guy from the AHL that could not be worse is you waive Campbell and bring up Pickard.

- He has a modified no trade and that 5 mill with years left, no one is taking him mostly for cap reasons. If you could find a trade partner, it's going to cost you a ton right now to move him. So you could waive.

- You call up Pickard. Pickard Has good numbers in the minors. He's got NHL experience. He's probably not a full time NHL goalie but I doubt he could be any worse than Campbell. You might get a guy who'd be pumped to be back in the NHL. Maybe his excited energy would rub off on the team. Maybe you get a few good starts out of him, we'd seen it happen to other guys on other teams when a goalie gets called up. He could be capable of being a back up for a short time.

- Maybe you get lucky and someone picks up Campbell. It won't happen so you'd get just over 1 mill in cap relief, most of it would be taken up my Pickard but you'd get a little more cap space.

- Campbell can go down and work on his game at lower levels. Maybe you get lucky and he finds himself.

- The main thing it would do is send a shock to the players. He's well liked. He's a higher priced guy. Yes part of his problem is he hasn't made enough saves but also the team hasn't played great either. I have to think they would feel pretty bad for being part of the reason Campbell got sent down. Maybe it gets them going.

Hahaha...I don't think anyone is going to feel that bad for Jack Campbell if he gets sent down. it's a results based business and I'm sure all the players know that they aren't getting any saves. He could be a great guy, but he and Skinner are costing us games. Everyone knows it.

And if you want to show that results matter, there's another guy who's completely responsible for this mess who should be shown the door. He's sitting in the GMs office...well, that or he's at a cottage somewhere because lord knows he doesn't like to make in-season trades or coaching/management decisions. He probably has the next 2-3 months circled as a de facto holiday anyhow...What could be more impactful for players to see than a Hall of Fame failure getting escorted out of the offices.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826656 is a reply to message #826652 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:22

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 12:59

I think a shot across the bow to the players, especially the core needs to happen. As I said, I think there is enough talent on the team to be a lot better than they are playing. If a person doesn't like the Brown signing, that's fine. Brown getting off to a slow start isn't the reason the Oilers aren't doing well. The majority of the team, that includes their best players, aren't playing well.

Making a big trade in the NHL doesn't happen very often in mid season. There isn't going to be a waiver claim that will impact the season. There aren't players on the farm that will suddenly dramatically improve the play of other players. Lavoie is now up but in reality, if he came up 3 or 4 games earlier, it wouldn't have impacted the team that much.

I think the only move they can make that would #1 send a shock wave through the team and #2 you could bring up a guy from the AHL that could not be worse is you waive Campbell and bring up Pickard.

- He has a modified no trade and that 5 mill with years left, no one is taking him mostly for cap reasons. If you could find a trade partner, it's going to cost you a ton right now to move him. So you could waive.

- You call up Pickard. Pickard Has good numbers in the minors. He's got NHL experience. He's probably not a full time NHL goalie but I doubt he could be any worse than Campbell. You might get a guy who'd be pumped to be back in the NHL. Maybe his excited energy would rub off on the team. Maybe you get a few good starts out of him, we'd seen it happen to other guys on other teams when a goalie gets called up. He could be capable of being a back up for a short time.

- Maybe you get lucky and someone picks up Campbell. It won't happen so you'd get just over 1 mill in cap relief, most of it would be taken up my Pickard but you'd get a little more cap space.

- Campbell can go down and work on his game at lower levels. Maybe you get lucky and he finds himself.

- The main thing it would do is send a shock to the players. He's well liked. He's a higher priced guy. Yes part of his problem is he hasn't made enough saves but also the team hasn't played great either. I have to think they would feel pretty bad for being part of the reason Campbell got sent down. Maybe it gets them going.

Hahaha...I don't think anyone is going to feel that bad for Jack Campbell if he gets sent down. it's a results based business and I'm sure all the players know that they aren't getting any saves. He could be a great guy, but he and Skinner are costing us games. Everyone knows it.

And if you want to show that results matter, there's another guy who's completely responsible for this mess who should be shown the door. He's sitting in the GMs office...well, that or he's at a cottage somewhere because lord knows he doesn't like to make in-season trades or coaching/management decisions. He probably has the next 2-3 months circled as a de facto holiday anyhow...What could be more impactful for players to see than a Hall of Fame failure getting escorted out of the offices.

Thank you for comment regarding my post. I hope you enjoy the season.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826660 is a reply to message #826656 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 14:43

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 06 November 2023 14:22

Thank you for comment regarding my post. I hope you enjoy the season.

Getting responses is a feature of a message board, not a bug. If you don't like what other people say, respond to it directly or don't say anything. This childishness isn't helpful.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826662 is a reply to message #826660 ]	Mon, 06 November 2023 16:02

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I see the Oilers being in quite the pickle right now, with basically one possible solution.

The off-ice problems and bad solutions
-The GM put together a bad hockey team. It's unlikely he has the time or ability to fix this. It's equally unlikely a new GM could fix this without an offseason or two.
-The last 4ish GMs have done a terrible job of picking coaches over the last quarter century. It's unlikely they have the ability to make a choice who fixes this season during the season
-The coach has failed to adapt to changes in how other team play against the Oilers. This is compounded by him being mentored by a coach who is best known for failing to adapt. It's very possible that no amount of tinkering by the coach can fix the problem here because of the poor job done by the GM in assembling this team. It's equally unlikely that another head coach who happens to be available in season, is willing to come to Edmonton to fix a mess, and is selected by the current managerial regime could fix this.
-A new goalie coach probably doesn't fix the goaltending because of the defensive problems and difficulty in messing with a goalie during the season

The on-ice problems and bad solution
-The Oilers don't have the spare parts or cap space to swap out the 4th line. They've also tried this with very limited success (Gagner's two goals were fun though).
-The Oilers don't have the spare parts or cap space to swap out the 3rd pair. They've also tried this with very limited success.
-The goaltending has been awful. It might improve a little bit over the season, but it's unlikely they get back to league average.
There probably isn't a goaltender available who would do much better than the current duo available. Even if someone is available, the Oilers don't have the flexibility and managerial acumen to find him.
-Nurse and Campbell are simply not good enough for their cap hit. There are reasons they were signed to their numbers, but the truth is they've become boat anchors because of their cap hit. Sending them down doesn't create the cap savings to allow the Oilers to find a replacement.
-McLeod isn't providing enough, but who would trade for him at that price. He could be replaced though
-Ceci and Kulak probably have trade value, but would be difficult to replace in season and even if they are replaced the goal is to grossly improve the team

So what's the solution?

McDavid has to go supernova again... and not be dealing with a nagging injury.

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826730 is a reply to message #826541 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 00:07

Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

A lot is riding on the Sharks game now.

Beat the sharks, I think Woody gets a 2nd life and we can be pretty sure things will turn around.

Lose to the sharks. I think they just fold the entire org and ask Bettman if we can restart as an expansion franchise.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: What If Scenarios - Woodcroft Getting Fired... [message #826732 is a reply to message #826730 ]	Tue, 07 November 2023 00:15

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 07 November 2023 00:07

A lot is riding on the Sharks game now.

Beat the sharks, I think Woody gets a 2nd life and we can be pretty sure things will turn around.

Lose to the sharks. I think they just fold the entire org and ask Bettman if we can restart as an expansion franchise.

Do you remember the game against I believe the Flames where Holland apparently decided it was make or break for Tippett? Oilers won, so they got another couple weeks before the axe dropped.

I could 100% see him doing that again about Thursday’s game for Woodcroft. Completely stupid to base any impactful decision on the results of one game, but it’s not that surprising really. Holland is awful at his job. I mean, it’s a GM who doesn’t believe you should want to win a trade because other GMs might hold it against you later…pretty unbelievable that we wasted five years under him.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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