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Yakupov Interview [message #825416]	Fri, 08 September 2023 10:15

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

https://oilersnation.com/news/i-never-learned-how-to-play-na il-yakupov-opens-up-on-time-with-edmonton-oilers-pressure-as -first-overall-pick

Some interesting things in this piece. Not terribly surprising - Krueger was good and gave the youngster some early confidence, Eakins was terrible and didn't bother teaching or explaining anything.

Also, another young important draft pick not confident in English who didn't get a lot of support from the team. The incredible thing with all that is that its not like Yakupov and Puljujarvi are 7th round picks - the team spent very important picks on these players, and then threw them in the deep end and hoped for the best.

We have a poster here who's talked about how these players should be super mature and should just take care of themselves, but the reality is that they're still 18 year olds, they're far from home and lack of comfort with the language can make you feel pretty isolated. It's crazy that apparently the only one who understood that was Darcy Hordichuk!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825418 is a reply to message #825416 ]	Fri, 08 September 2023 14:09

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

OH good, another cry baby piece about a player putting all the blame on the team and none on himself for why he didn't develop. The team tells him who to go too and what to do, he has a paid professional agent to help guide him but the team didn't put a gun to his head forcing him too do it when he said no. So it's their fault he didn't develop.

He's 29 and played on 7 different professional teams, all of which he wasn't anything special but it's all those teams fault and how any of his.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825419 is a reply to message #825418 ]	Fri, 08 September 2023 15:39

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 14:09

OH good, another cry baby piece about a player putting all the blame on the team and none on himself for why he didn't develop. The team tells him who to go too and what to do, he has a paid professional agent to help guide him but the team didn't put a gun to his head forcing him too do it when he said no. So it's their fault he didn't develop.

He's 29 and played on 7 different professional teams, all of which he wasn't anything special but it's all those teams fault and how any of his.

Honestly, I don't think Yakupov is crying at all. He's saying that he struggled with the pressure of being a #1 pick, and having a lot of pressure to succeed while far from home and not super comfortable with the language. He's saying he had a hard time making friends - and it doesn't sound like the Oilers culture at the time was one where they were encouraging players to make it an inclusive room - I mean, remember MacTavish spoke in virtually every interview about how he had core players and non-core players.

Yakupov clearly thinks that he could have been treated better, and that Dallas Eakins didn't make a lot of effort to actually develop him. Is there anything you saw from Eakins that would make you think differently than that? I mean, this is a coach who all of Smid, Hemsky and Bryzgalov gently mocked just after they left. That's pretty notable.

I suppose given your track record of blame the players for everything, and the coaches and management for nothing (until after they're gone), I'm sure if we went back to the Eakins era, we'd find a lot of posts clearing him of all responsibility for all the struggles, but even you must look at his incredible coaching record now - never leading a NHL team to a .500 record in the loser point era in 6 seasons! - and have to admit that he's probably a really bad coach.

Although he does loudly claim responsibility for Nazem Kadri's development...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825420 is a reply to message #825419 ]	Fri, 08 September 2023 16:31

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I have never for 1 second EVER thought that a coach or organization has zero impact on a players development. Of course they have an impact on how a player develops. What I have always said and still believe is that the majority of a players development is up to the player.

WHY you ask.

Because a big part of a players development from year to year happens in the offseason when he's not around the team. When a player comes from junior they all need to get stronger. That happens in the offseason in the gym. A teams strengths and conditioning coach will give each player a program for the offseason. I am sure they will check in on them during the offseason but they aren't physically there with every player 7 days a week month after month. It's up to the player to get up and go to the gym and do the exercises. If they do, it will show up at physical. If they don't do it, that's on the player. So in my opinion, pointing the finger at the team saying "it's the teams fault" if a player doesn't come to camp stronger or in shape year after year is complete BS.

That is one simple example that I used. But this in my opinion is the same if a team identifies they need to improve their skating or their puck skills. A team can tell the guy here is what you need to improve on this offseason but it's up to the player to do the physical work. That could mean hiring a skating coach or a skills coach. I heard on 1440 that apparently Big Vinnie identified and I am sure the team told him at the end of the season, he needed to improve his puck skills. So what did he do, he got with a skills coach and worked on it all summer. If Big Vinnie was told you need to improve your puck skills, then did nothing about it. I think it's BS to blame the team. The players are the ones that have to do the work, that's their freaking job. They are the ones that have to go to the gym and work on their game. It's not the teams job to follow these guys around 24-7 like a parent with a toddler and forcing them to do things. These are grow ass men. If they are told 'here is what we need you to do' they better freaking do it. That's their bloody job.

In the case of Yak and Eakins. I thought Eakins sucked as a coach. I thought he was a cocky, smug, arrogant, I know best guy who had no business being that because he'd done NOTHING when he came into the NHL. I thought he was crappy with the Ducks as well. I am sure Eakins could have treated Yak better. However, I have a hard time believing that every NHLer past and present all had amazing coaches all the way up. I bet at some point in their hockey lives, they all had coaches who didn't do a very good job or weren't nice enough to them or whatever. No different than any of us. I bet at some point in our lives many of us had a crappy boss or a crappy teacher but we found away to overcome those people and continue on. We didn't just throw up our hands and be done because someone wasn't nice to use for a year in our lives.

Eakins was the Oilers coach for 113 games. He was a lousy coach but the time he was the Oilers coach amounted to less than 1.5 yrs of Yak's professional hockey career. He's going on his 12th professional year. He's been pretty mediocre at best his entire professional hockey career. He had a bad experience for 1.5 yrs out of going on his 12th year. What about the other 10.5 yrs? The fact he couldn't overcome that 1.5 yrs, when the MASSIVE majority of the time he hasn't been around Eakins, that's on him.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825421 is a reply to message #825419 ]	Fri, 08 September 2023 17:18

NetBOG
Messages: 2948
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

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Adam wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 15:39

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 14:09

OH good, another cry baby piece about a player putting all the blame on the team and none on himself for why he didn't develop. The team tells him who to go too and what to do, he has a paid professional agent to help guide him but the team didn't put a gun to his head forcing him too do it when he said no. So it's their fault he didn't develop.

He's 29 and played on 7 different professional teams, all of which he wasn't anything special but it's all those teams fault and how any of his.

Honestly, I don't think Yakupov is crying at all. He's saying that he struggled with the pressure of being a #1 pick, and having a lot of pressure to succeed while far from home and not super comfortable with the language. He's saying he had a hard time making friends - and it doesn't sound like the Oilers culture at the time was one where they were encouraging players to make it an inclusive room - I mean, remember MacTavish spoke in virtually every interview about how he had core players and non-core players.

Yakupov clearly thinks that he could have been treated better, and that Dallas Eakins didn't make a lot of effort to actually develop him. Is there anything you saw from Eakins that would make you think differently than that? I mean, this is a coach who all of Smid, Hemsky and Bryzgalov gently mocked just after they left. That's pretty notable.

I suppose given your track record of blame the players for everything, and the coaches and management for nothing (until after they're gone), I'm sure if we went back to the Eakins era, we'd find a lot of posts clearing him of all responsibility for all the struggles, but even you must look at his incredible coaching record now - never leading a NHL team to a .500 record in the loser point era in 6 seasons! - and have to admit that he's probably a really bad coach.

Although he does loudly claim responsibility for Nazem Kadri's development...

I blame Taylor Hall

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825422 is a reply to message #825416 ]	Fri, 08 September 2023 19:21

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Think many here saw something similar to what Yak describes. He knows it part his fault too, but he is what he is. He dominated Jr with a skill set that didn't translate easily to the NHL and he did a.poor job of adapting and self motivating. With perfect circumstances and support.maybe he could have ended up a decent 2nd liner, but he didn't get the luck needed.

What a disaster that MacT GM hire was. We actually had a decent core of players setting up, but needed some major trades to fill holes on D and the forward depth. MacT didn't have a clue. And he hired a coach that was just as in over his head as Yakupov was. Only Eakins could try to compensate for his sucking by scapegoating and treating players like garbage. We had a perfectly good HC in Krueger to build up confidence in the young players, and could have hired a more demanding coach when it looked like we were ready to contend.

Of course all the embarrassing moves by this org got us McDavid and Drai.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825427 is a reply to message #825422 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 08:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 19:21

Think many here saw something similar to what Yak describes. He knows it part his fault too, but he is what he is. He dominated Jr with a skill set that didn't translate easily to the NHL and he did a.poor job of adapting and self motivating. With perfect circumstances and support.maybe he could have ended up a decent 2nd liner, but he didn't get the luck needed.

What a disaster that MacT GM hire was. We actually had a decent core of players setting up, but needed some major trades to fill holes on D and the forward depth. MacT didn't have a clue. And he hired a coach that was just as in over his head as Yakupov was. Only Eakins could try to compensate for his sucking by scapegoating and treating players like garbage. We had a perfectly good HC in Krueger to build up confidence in the young players, and could have hired a more demanding coach when it looked like we were ready to contend.

Of course all the embarrassing moves by this org got us McDavid and Drai.

As you said, I think Yak had a skill set that worked well in junior. I don't know for sure but my guess is that his junior coach placed an emphasis on that skill set for him because it helped the team score goals vs trying to round out his game. I have heard it reported many, many times that Yak LOVED to work on the things he did well. I don't remember Yak from year to year after a long offseason of supposed training, coming into the next season looking better. He never looked faster, he never looked stronger on the boards, his shot never looked faster or harder. He just looked the same year after year and because he never did anything to improve, teams figured out how to neutralize him and it was pretty easy. I do question Yak's coachability because he never improved as an Oiler, he never changed his game and if you look at his stats from the KHL and hear what has been talked about, he doesn't do overly well over there either. In my opinion, if a guy is coachable and wants to improve, when you are approaching 30, you'd think the light would have clicked in and he would have made changes. It doesn't appear he has.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825431 is a reply to message #825427 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 10:41

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 766
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Except he did change. He came in and was reasonably productive right away. 12-13 in 48 games had 31 points. 13-14 in 63 games with Eakins had 24 points. 14-15 in 81 games (31 of which with Eakins) had 33 points. 15-16 in 60 games had 24 points before being traded.
in 252 NHL games with the Oilers, he had 112 points and 50 goals. a 0.44 point per game player on the worst team in the league.
That's disappointing for a 1st overall pick, but if he was coached to round out his weaknesses, he could have been a steady producing player still.

Eakins clearly didn't like Yakupov and put no effort into putting him in a position to succeed. Would he have turned into a superstar with adequate coaching? no. Could he have been a serviceable 2nd line player? very likely.

Consider our 2nd line wingers last year had Kane, Foegele, Yamamoto, Kostin, Puljujarvi and their point totals, Yak would have been the top of any of them (though Kane missed half the season)

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825441 is a reply to message #825431 ]	Tue, 12 September 2023 06:56

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 11 September 2023 13:41

He came in and was reasonably productive right away.

People often forget that. Despite not being a Calder finalist, he was the rookie goal scoring leader and tied with Huberdeau for the most points. He had a better goals and points per game than 3 recent Oilers high profile rookies in Hall, Eberle, and Paajarvi, and with quite a bit less ice time than those 3.

He actually had a pretty good rookie year. Looked a little rough around the edges, but there certainly was reason for optimism - there was no reason to believe that his rookie season would be BY FAR his most productive. After a 29 goal pace rookie season, his best after that was 14. After a 53 point pace rookie season, his best afterwards was 33.

By any measure, he was an NHL player during his rookie season. Then all of a sudden, not so much. Sure the player should shoulder some (a lot) of the blame, but it's clear to me that there is more than enough blame to go around.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825433 is a reply to message #825422 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 10:55

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 19:21

Think many here saw something similar to what Yak describes. He knows it part his fault too, but he is what he is. He dominated Jr with a skill set that didn't translate easily to the NHL and he did a.poor job of adapting and self motivating. With perfect circumstances and support.maybe he could have ended up a decent 2nd liner, but he didn't get the luck needed.

What a disaster that MacT GM hire was. We actually had a decent core of players setting up, but needed some major trades to fill holes on D and the forward depth. MacT didn't have a clue. And he hired a coach that was just as in over his head as Yakupov was. Only Eakins could try to compensate for his sucking by scapegoating and treating players like garbage. We had a perfectly good HC in Krueger to build up confidence in the young players, and could have hired a more demanding coach when it looked like we were ready to contend.

Of course all the embarrassing moves by this org got us McDavid and Drai.

I think it's so funny that anyone who left criticizes anything about the organization and certain fans and columnists immediately turn to character assassination rather than any level of introspection about the organization and it's failings.

Certainly, as bad as Tambellini was, MacTavish may have been actually worse. The Kruger/Eakins thing was embarrassingly poorly handled, and then it turned out that the guy he fell in love with was actually a brutal coach who mishandled their young players and seriously regressed the whole group for two years. Say what you want about players needing to improve themselves, but when you're talking about early picks making the team as teenagers, these are young kids who need direction.

Throw on top of that MacTavish's approach to destroying the market value of Hemsky, Horcoff, Petry and the bungling of the goaltending - absolutely obliterating Dubnyk after he had the 14th best stats the year before on one of the worst teams, then creating a wild carousel all season, followed by "checking the box" with Fasth and Scrivens.

Maybe that's one of the stunners about Oilers GMs. As bad as one has done, then we always seem to have hired someone to do one better and make the team worse. Lowe was impulsive and fiery and pissed off everyone who left, but he made a few good moves. Tambellini was a ditherer and paralyzed to make any serious moves. I mean, the one time the Oilers look like they have a chance at the playoffs, he brought in Jerrod Smithson as the only deadline add, even knowing that they had Hemsky on only one foot at that time.

MacTavish was no ditherer - he made more trades than anyone in the league in the couple years he held the role, but he made the team substantially worse through his constant action and inability to keep his mouth shut. As you say, the only great thing about MacTavish & Eakins is that through their sheer ineptitude, we get Draisaitl and McDavid.

So then we go to Chiarelli who's a little better about keeping a secret (although he certainly had his avenues for leaking his intentions out) but who made some much bigger, much crappier moves that again further set the team back. He did realize the importance of goaltending though and brought in Talbot who solidified the position for a little while...although that last signing of his was a bit of a puzzler.

And that brings us to Holland, who's basically semi-retired (although yet still extremely expensive) and who approached the first several years of his tenure by throwing his hands in the air and suggesting his predecessor already screwed the team over and there's nothing he could possibly do to fix it until those contracts expire. That's bolstered by his belief that you can't and shouldn't want to "win" a trade, because someone might hold that against you. Someone really should tell the Islanders and Devils that they still owe us for fleecing us in years past...

Oh yeah, and Holland, despite being a goalie himself in his playing days, holds no value in having a good one in the nets and so his tenure is marked by the team always having mediocre at best netminding - which remains the squad's biggest question mark going in to this season too.

If there was ever anyone close to the team with the balls to write it, there's a hell of a case study in incompetence about the Oilers over the last 15 years. I think the hardest thing would be boiling it down to a few learning points because with that much failure there's just so much to speak to...It's almost too messy to even get a coherent lesson from!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825436 is a reply to message #825433 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 12:47

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

From the interview it's pretty clear the Oilers should not have drafted Yakupov. Over and over he said he was shy, didn't understand what was going on and just wanted to go home. If you're going to take a player like that you absolutely need to have a plan on how to mentor him into the NHL lifestyle. Yakupov came across as very aware of his problems and wanting to work on them but having absolutely no idea how to make anything better. Somehow Darcy Hordichuk is the only one who noticed there was a problem? Unbelievable.

I don't know that Eakins is the worst coach in NHL history, but I know I could make a case for it. The whole Oilers organization at that time sounds so immature with no leadership.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825439 is a reply to message #825436 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 13:17

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 11 September 2023 12:47

From the interview it's pretty clear the Oilers should not have drafted Yakupov.

This I can get behind. I think part of a scouting staffs job is to of course identify the talent of a player. They also need to identify his flaws but they also need to figure out if that guy will be a fit for the team and where the team is located.

I do not think a shy player who potentially has confidence issues doesn't have a very good chance of doing well in Edmonton. It's not a huge City where as soon as a player gets 5 blocks of from the rink, no one has a clue who he is. You come to Edmonton or a City like it, every person knows who you are both fans and media. When you have a good game, you will be treated like you walk on water. When you don't, it will crush you. You have to be able to handle that. A guy like Yak, it doesn't sound like he had the personality or mental ability to handle playing in Edmonton. That doesn't take away from the Oilers making mistakes. They did make mistakes with him. But like I said, Eakins was his coach for a very brief portion of his entire career, just over 1 season. Eakins did a lousy job but if 1 guy for a fraction of your entire career is bad and you can't overcome that, that's on the player. Very, very few players development is completely seamless from day 1 on, there will be bumps in the road but they have to overcome those bumps. Doesn't sound like he could overcome that bump in the road.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825440 is a reply to message #825439 ]	Mon, 11 September 2023 14:01

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 11 September 2023 13:17

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 11 September 2023 12:47

From the interview it's pretty clear the Oilers should not have drafted Yakupov.

This I can get behind. I think part of a scouting staffs job is to of course identify the talent of a player. They also need to identify his flaws but they also need to figure out if that guy will be a fit for the team and where the team is located.

I do not think a shy player who potentially has confidence issues doesn't have a very good chance of doing well in Edmonton. It's not a huge City where as soon as a player gets 5 blocks of from the rink, no one has a clue who he is. You come to Edmonton or a City like it, every person knows who you are both fans and media. When you have a good game, you will be treated like you walk on water. When you don't, it will crush you. You have to be able to handle that. A guy like Yak, it doesn't sound like he had the personality or mental ability to handle playing in Edmonton. That doesn't take away from the Oilers making mistakes. They did make mistakes with him. But like I said, Eakins was his coach for a very brief portion of his entire career, just over 1 season. Eakins did a lousy job but if 1 guy for a fraction of your entire career is bad and you can't overcome that, that's on the player. Very, very few players development is completely seamless from day 1 on, there will be bumps in the road but they have to overcome those bumps. Doesn't sound like he could overcome that bump in the road.

I think you're missing that that assessment is absolutely damning on the Oilers. If you can't draft players who need any kind of adjustment to the NHL, then you're going to struggle with high end picks.

I mean, if it wasn't Yakupov, the other three in the mix were Murray, Galchenyuk and Reinhart. Two of those are defencemen who would have likely been early easy targets for the Edmonton fanbase if pushed in to a big league role right away - and they would have been as first overall picks here at a time when the organization is on record as trying to sell the hope. The last one was coming off a year where he was injured and missed the whole season. As an American, he might not have had the same language issues that Yakupov did, but his development curve isn't that far off from Yakupov's in their early career, and Galchenyuk didn't have to deal with Eakins.

2012 - Yakupov 17-14-31, Galchenyuk 9-18-27 (both in 48 games)
2013 - Yakupov 11-13-24 (63 games), Galchenyuk 13-18-31 (65 games)
2014 - Yakupov 14-19-33 (81 games), Galchenyuk 20-26-46 (80 games)

Add in the Eakins factor, and they're a dead heat over that period of time, and probably getting flushed by the Oilers either way and left for dead as a "bust".

Murray definitely wouldn't have thrived as a non-aggressive defenceman who only ever put up middling numbers and battled injuries. If he joins the Oilers at 18, then there would be a vocal group of fans calling for him to be traded for nothing a year and a half in to his career. he didn't play a full season until 2015-16, about the same time the Oilers were giving up on Yakupov for good.

And can you imagine how you'd talk today about Griffin Reinhart if he'd been the first overall pick??? I mean, he didn't have to deal with Eakins trying to "re-teach the team defence" and he still only managed 37 NHL games.

If the Oilers have to assess players as to whether they can assist them at adjusting to the NHL level, and if they need help then we pass on them, then we're immediately one of the worst places to be drafted in the entire league. Teams should expect that you should need to help players with their development. You should expect to help young players with their off-ice development too...both from a training and skills perspective, as well as a larger life perspective.

These are teenagers living far from home. Even if they're just from Ontario, that's still a massive adjustment. Having millions and being known everywhere you go doesn't actually make that adjustment easier either. If you're a team that doesn't know how to help them? That's a major major fail.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825468 is a reply to message #825422 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 18:50

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 08 September 2023 19:21

Of course all the embarrassing moves by this org got us McDavid and Drai.

I'd also add Evander Kane to the mix...it's kind of a super power that we don't embarrass easily, every other NHL team said no, twice, but we went for it and it's paid off. Our North Korean style media coverage gives the team enough rope. We should be leaning into this more.

Voynov is only 33yrs old.

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825452 is a reply to message #825416 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 08:28

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

The earlier comparison of Vinnie and Yakupov doesn’t translate.

Desharnais is 27 and has played parts of 6 seasons in the ECHL and AHL. This is how you draft, nurture and support a draft pick. Big Vin after his 1st NHL season has the ability to and awareness to be better due to maturity and organizational development.

As much as Nail hurt himself, it was up to the team to identify his needs and get him to the highest level he could attain with support. It’s true that you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink, but if you don’t give the horse a watering hole then he’s got no choices other than dying or escaping to greener pastures.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 September 2023 08:45]

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825453 is a reply to message #825452 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 09:57

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 08:28

The earlier comparison of Vinnie and Yakupov doesn’t translate.

Desharnais is 27 and has played parts of 6 seasons in the ECHL and AHL. This is how you draft, nurture and support a draft pick. Big Vin after his 1st NHL season has the ability to and awareness to be better due to maturity and organizational development.

As much as Nail hurt himself, it was up to the team to identify his needs and get him to the highest level he could attain with support. It’s true that you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink, but if you don’t give the horse a watering hole then he’s got no choices other than dying or escaping to greener pastures.

Who was comparing Desharnais to Yakupov? I missed that one. Extremely tough comparison.

I agree though - you can't simply say "this is a 1st overall pick, ergo he should be able to jump in to the NHL right away and know what he's doing." They all have development points and they all require coaching and training. And an 18-year old kid is going to have more to learn - even if he's very talented - than a 27-year old, including a ton of lessons away from the game. If he's not from here, doesn't feel super comfortable with the language, etc...well, that only exacerbates it. In the last few years, the Oilers have completely wasted two high picks (if not more - Magnus Paajarvi's career trajectory was pretty similar) because they didn't realize that they need to work to make sure young players are adjusting well to life as an NHL player.

It's not that I don't understand Joe Everyman saying "hey, these guys have it great! They're getting paid a fortune to play a game! Girls swoon at their feet. They get free stuff all the time! They should suck it up and just be good at hockey!" It's just that that extremely simple-minded point of view forgets that they are very young and it's a whirlwind around them and if you're managing a hockey team and investing top picks and a ton of money in them, and if some level of your success depends on their development? Then you shouldn't have that Joe Everyman attitude and instead should find some level of empathy - even if it's just self-interested empathy even!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825454 is a reply to message #825453 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 10:12

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 09:57

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 08:28

The earlier comparison of Vinnie and Yakupov doesn’t translate.

Desharnais is 27 and has played parts of 6 seasons in the ECHL and AHL. This is how you draft, nurture and support a draft pick. Big Vin after his 1st NHL season has the ability to and awareness to be better due to maturity and organizational development.

As much as Nail hurt himself, it was up to the team to identify his needs and get him to the highest level he could attain with support. It’s true that you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink, but if you don’t give the horse a watering hole then he’s got no choices other than dying or escaping to greener pastures.

Who was comparing Desharnais to Yakupov? I missed that one. Extremely tough comparison.

I agree though - you can't simply say "this is a 1st overall pick, ergo he should be able to jump in to the NHL right away and know what he's doing." They all have development points and they all require coaching and training. And an 18-year old kid is going to have more to learn - even if he's very talented - than a 27-year old, including a ton of lessons away from the game. If he's not from here, doesn't feel super comfortable with the language, etc...well, that only exacerbates it. In the last few years, the Oilers have completely wasted two high picks (if not more - Magnus Paajarvi's career trajectory was pretty similar) because they didn't realize that they need to work to make sure young players are adjusting well to life as an NHL player.

It's not that I don't understand Joe Everyman saying "hey, these guys have it great! They're getting paid a fortune to play a game! Girls swoon at their feet. They get free stuff all the time! They should suck it up and just be good at hockey!" It's just that that extremely simple-minded point of view forgets that they are very young and it's a whirlwind around them and if you're managing a hockey team and investing top picks and a ton of money in them, and if some level of your success depends on their development? Then you shouldn't have that Joe Everyman attitude and instead should find some level of empathy - even if it's just self-interested empathy even!

Quote:

That is one simple example that I used. But this in my opinion is the same if a team identifies they need to improve their skating or their puck skills. A team can tell the guy here is what you need to improve on this offseason but it's up to the player to do the physical work. That could mean hiring a skating coach or a skills coach. I heard on 1440 that apparently Big Vinnie identified and I am sure the team told him at the end of the season, he needed to improve his puck skills. So what did he do, he got with a skills coach and worked on it all summer. If Big Vinnie was told you need to improve your puck skills, then did nothing about it. I think it's BS to blame the team. The players are the ones that have to do the work, that's their freaking job. They are the ones that have to go to the gym and work on their game. It's not the teams job to follow these guys around 24-7 like a parent with a toddler and forcing them to do things. These are grow ass men. If they are told 'here is what we need you to do' they better freaking do it. That's their bloody job.
-RDOF

I always try to remind myself that these drafted kids are only 18, and regardless of their skill levels there will always be outside influences that can change their career trajectories. Maturity comes with experiences and role modelling of behaviours. These NHL teams that continue to fail at providing support for these kids are not doing themselves any favours. People are not a one-size fits all, and the Oilers lack of player development in the past identifies that they were probably not being as careful with their assets as they should have been.

The young player has to assume the blame for not reaching their potential, but the team has to be honest with themselves and understand that the failure reflects back on to them. The Decade (and a half) of Darkness had many massive egos behind the bench and in the front office. At the end of the day, just because someone can legally vote and make a great income in a sport does not make them a "grown assed man".

[Updated on: Mon, 18 September 2023 10:23]

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825460 is a reply to message #825454 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 11:45

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 10:12

Adam wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 09:57

inverno76 wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 08:28

The earlier comparison of Vinnie and Yakupov doesn’t translate.

Desharnais is 27 and has played parts of 6 seasons in the ECHL and AHL. This is how you draft, nurture and support a draft pick. Big Vin after his 1st NHL season has the ability to and awareness to be better due to maturity and organizational development.

As much as Nail hurt himself, it was up to the team to identify his needs and get him to the highest level he could attain with support. It’s true that you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink, but if you don’t give the horse a watering hole then he’s got no choices other than dying or escaping to greener pastures.

Who was comparing Desharnais to Yakupov? I missed that one. Extremely tough comparison.

I agree though - you can't simply say "this is a 1st overall pick, ergo he should be able to jump in to the NHL right away and know what he's doing." They all have development points and they all require coaching and training. And an 18-year old kid is going to have more to learn - even if he's very talented - than a 27-year old, including a ton of lessons away from the game. If he's not from here, doesn't feel super comfortable with the language, etc...well, that only exacerbates it. In the last few years, the Oilers have completely wasted two high picks (if not more - Magnus Paajarvi's career trajectory was pretty similar) because they didn't realize that they need to work to make sure young players are adjusting well to life as an NHL player.

It's not that I don't understand Joe Everyman saying "hey, these guys have it great! They're getting paid a fortune to play a game! Girls swoon at their feet. They get free stuff all the time! They should suck it up and just be good at hockey!" It's just that that extremely simple-minded point of view forgets that they are very young and it's a whirlwind around them and if you're managing a hockey team and investing top picks and a ton of money in them, and if some level of your success depends on their development? Then you shouldn't have that Joe Everyman attitude and instead should find some level of empathy - even if it's just self-interested empathy even!

Quote:

That is one simple example that I used. But this in my opinion is the same if a team identifies they need to improve their skating or their puck skills. A team can tell the guy here is what you need to improve on this offseason but it's up to the player to do the physical work. That could mean hiring a skating coach or a skills coach. I heard on 1440 that apparently Big Vinnie identified and I am sure the team told him at the end of the season, he needed to improve his puck skills. So what did he do, he got with a skills coach and worked on it all summer. If Big Vinnie was told you need to improve your puck skills, then did nothing about it. I think it's BS to blame the team. The players are the ones that have to do the work, that's their freaking job. They are the ones that have to go to the gym and work on their game. It's not the teams job to follow these guys around 24-7 like a parent with a toddler and forcing them to do things. These are grow ass men. If they are told 'here is what we need you to do' they better freaking do it. That's their bloody job.
-RDOF

I always try to remind myself that these drafted kids are only 18, and regardless of their skill levels there will always be outside influences that can change their career trajectories. Maturity comes with experiences and role modelling of behaviours. These NHL teams that continue to fail at providing support for these kids are not doing themselves any favours. People are not a one-size fits all, and the Oilers lack of player development in the past identifies that they were probably not being as careful with their assets as they should have been.

The young player has to assume the blame for not reaching their potential, but the team has to be honest with themselves and understand that the failure reflects back on to them. The Decade (and a half) of Darkness had many massive egos behind the bench and in the front office. At the end of the day, just because someone can legally vote and make a great income in a sport does not make them a "grown assed man".

At the least we could have built up Yak into a good trade chip. Krueger babied him pretty nicely. Played him on the left so he could more easily assist playing pucks on the boards in his own zone to not be a complete liability. He gave him chances on the PP to shoot to keep up his confidence. There were major holes in his game, probably in 2/3 of the ice surface, but there were still ways to keep him positive and he was clearly able to shoot well enough to be useful in some situations.

Then, he goes 3 years basically without being allowed to take a 1-timer. God's gift to coaching decided this boy needs to be able show he can play like a seasoned 2-way vet before he can get another pure offensive opportunity. He was going to be his next Kadri! For some reason TO media and fans bestowed all credit for Kadri's drive for self improvement on the brilliant Eakins who told everyone he took Kadri under his wing. I thinks Eakins believed the story more than anyone, except maybe MacT.

I don't think Yak's career could have gone any worse after that first season. He can take blame for just not being that good. Peak of his ability was probably ok 2nd liner 5v5 that needs a good defensive C and PP shooting specialist. Would probably have needed sheltering by his coach his whole career. Obviously we take blame for terrible handling of what should have been a very valuable asset. We let a guy that was worse at coaching than Yak was at hockey get free rein to just murder the confidence of almost every player on our team, which obviously would hit a very young struggling player with the pressure of being a #1 pick harder than most. Todd Nelson actually got Yak going again, but Yak got rugged on that situation too. McLellan was not at all a fan.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 September 2023 11:50]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Yakupov Interview [message #825462 is a reply to message #825460 ]	Mon, 18 September 2023 13:50

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 18 September 2023 11:45

At the least we could have built up Yak into a good trade chip.

Yeah - I think people always seem to forget that the team knows its players better than anyone else, so if a guy has a good rookie season but you don't believe in him long-term being able to peak where you had hoped, then you can still probably trade him for a significant amount. MacTavish/Eakins were just brutal for destroying the value of every player they touched. They'd publicly question their abilities. They'd healthy scratch them perplexingly. They wouldn't deal them while there might be public backlash, so they preferred to get to the point where they were just done here before liquidating them for nothing. MacTavish's had a starting goalie that would be a Vezina candidate soon after and he only got a 4th liner for him. He had a top-pairing RHD that he got a 2nd and 5th round pick for. He had a first line RW who he got a 3rd and a 5th round pick for. And with Yakupov, while they weren't the ones to ultimately trade him, by the time they were done with him, he'd lost all value. If the Oilers had dealt him after his first season, they would have done pretty well, and they could have pointed to the fact that we had so many forwards needing offensive time and PP time as a reason to do a deal. Instead we both held on to him, even embarrassing the player over his agent asking for a deal, and systematically destroyed the player's value - once again shooting us in the foot with both barrels.

I don't have time to look very hard, but I am guessing that there's very few first overalls who got less return than Yakupov. Patrik Stefan was dealt with Jaro Modry for Niko Kapanen and a 7th rounder - but at least Kapanen was an NHL player. Alexandre Daigle was traded for Pat Falloon, Vaclav Prospal and a 2nd. Brian Lawton was dealt with Rick Bennett & Igor Liba for Mark Tinordi, Paul Jerrard, Brett Barnett and a 3rd round pick. Greg Joly was swapped one-for-one for aging veteran (and future Oilers coach) Bryan (Bugsy) Watson. The Yakupov return of an expiring contract in Pochiro and a third round pick (that we'd ultimately trade away too) is pathetic and shows just how little effort the team made to maintain that player's value.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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