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Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824230]	Tue, 13 June 2023 13:21

Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007

No Cups

From the Edmonton Oilers Twitter:

The #Oilers have signed Derek Ryan to a two-year contract extension with an AAV of $900,000. The veteran forward scored 13 goals & 20 points in 80 games during the 2022-23 season.
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.
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900AAV for a 3/4? Okay money I would say. I'm okay with this.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824231 is a reply to message #824230 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 13:31

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I thought they should bring Ryan back. He had 13 goals for the team playing pretty limited minutes. Wants to be here. Hard not to bring him back.

I don't love the 2 second year but at the same time, I am OK with it because giving him the extra year dropped that AAV under 1 mill I am sure. You can bury that in the minors easily if you have too. As your 12/13 forward, I have a hard time complaining about bringing him back.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824232 is a reply to message #824230 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 13:48

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

The classic Ken Holland 2 year deal.

I like Ryan, a lot. Wouldn’t hesitate to call him our best bottom 6 forward. Possession stats are great. Hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff due to age…

Clean house or bust

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824233 is a reply to message #824230 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 13:50

oilfan94
Messages: 410
Registered: June 2006
Location: USA

No Cups

I think this is a pretty good deal to bring him back. Not sure if we could have found someone better for the same price on the open market.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824235 is a reply to message #824230 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 14:00

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Like Ryan. Useful player. Price is obviously right. Think he can still be decent for a couple years or get waived/buried.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824236 is a reply to message #824232 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 14:03

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 13:48

The classic Ken Holland 2 year deal.

I like Ryan, a lot. Wouldn’t hesitate to call him our best bottom 6 forward. Possession stats are great. Hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff due to age…

I swear, it just says 2-years in the template, highlighted in yellow, but Holland doesn't know that he can change that.

Good number, decent player who contributes. The second year is stupid. He's 36 and most guys that age are on one-year deals. How many did Thornton sign? How many did Spezza? The Oilers were maybe worried that he'd get a second year from someone on the open market, but if he's comfortable here, then he's probably not in a hurry to leave and if someone else wants to make a mistake, then let them.

EDIT: Worth noting, while if Ryan continued to play we could send him to the minors and be rid of his cap hit, due to his age when signing, if he retired, the Oilers would be stuck with the hit.

[Updated on: Tue, 13 June 2023 15:03]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824238 is a reply to message #824235 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 15:05

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

League min was I think 750K this past season. I assume with the cap going up a little, the min probably bumps up slightly to edge closer to 800K. So Ryan at 900K which will probably be just over 100 grand more than league min took a 350K salary cut to resign. Now I assume the second year on the deal is the carrot to get that AAV to barely above league min for a guy that scored you 13 goals in regular season, another one in the playoffs, plays a little on the PK, can win you a draw from the right side and does all that without complaining in pretty limited minutes. Just my opinion but if you are complaining about the second year of a contract that pays a pretty useful player barely above league min, a contract that can be fully buried in the minors in that second year if you have too, then I think you are the type of person that is just dying to complain about something.

I probably would prefer a 1 yr but if giving the guy a second year drops that AAV for the Oilers who need every dollar they can get in savings, I am struggling to see a risk here.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824240 is a reply to message #824238 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 15:15

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:05

League min was I think 750K this past season. I assume with the cap going up a little, the min probably bumps up slightly to edge closer to 800K. So Ryan at 900K which will probably be just over 100 grand more than league min took a 350K salary cut to resign. Now I assume the second year on the deal is the carrot to get that AAV to barely above league min for a guy that scored you 13 goals in regular season, another one in the playoffs, plays a little on the PK, can win you a draw from the right side and does all that without complaining in pretty limited minutes. Just my opinion but if you are complaining about the second year of a contract that pays a pretty useful player barely above league min, a contract that can be fully buried in the minors in that second year if you have too, then I think you are the type of person that is just dying to complain about something.

I probably would prefer a 1 yr but if giving the guy a second year drops that AAV for the Oilers who need every dollar they can get in savings, I am struggling to see a risk here.

I was late with my edit, so maybe you missed the retirement risk.

There's also the Oilers struggle with players they see in the older statesmen category. They don't like sending people out to pasture and they really struggle with cap manipulation. If he's struggling there's equally a chance the Oilers keep him on the roster and let him flounder or even to stupidly buy him out for being such a good soldier like they did with Eric Gryba.

I mean, what does a little cap hit really matter if you're taking care of someone who's a really good dude?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824242 is a reply to message #824240 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 15:28

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:15

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:05

League min was I think 750K this past season. I assume with the cap going up a little, the min probably bumps up slightly to edge closer to 800K. So Ryan at 900K which will probably be just over 100 grand more than league min took a 350K salary cut to resign. Now I assume the second year on the deal is the carrot to get that AAV to barely above league min for a guy that scored you 13 goals in regular season, another one in the playoffs, plays a little on the PK, can win you a draw from the right side and does all that without complaining in pretty limited minutes. Just my opinion but if you are complaining about the second year of a contract that pays a pretty useful player barely above league min, a contract that can be fully buried in the minors in that second year if you have too, then I think you are the type of person that is just dying to complain about something.

I probably would prefer a 1 yr but if giving the guy a second year drops that AAV for the Oilers who need every dollar they can get in savings, I am struggling to see a risk here.

I was late with my edit, so maybe you missed the retirement risk.

There's also the Oilers struggle with players they see in the older statesmen category. They don't like sending people out to pasture and they really struggle with cap manipulation. If he's struggling there's equally a chance the Oilers keep him on the roster and let him flounder or even to stupidly buy him out for being such a good soldier like they did with Eric Gryba.

I mean, what does a little cap hit really matter if you're taking care of someone who's a really good dude?

Your retirement edit was not there when I commented.

Regardless, I am not going to take much time to get into this with you. Everyone here thought he should be resigned and they got him for barely above league min. Year 2, if the cap is shooting up like it's supposed too, his contract might be less than league min so I am not going to get all bent out of shape over paying a pretty useful guy pennies to stay around. You are going to need a 13th forward on the the team. I think he's better than Shore. I think he given how smart of a player he is and the low miles he has on his bodies, he could easily be a 13th guy next year as well making next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I stand by what I said. If you are concerned about giving a useful player little to no money that can be easily buried in the minors, I think you are just looking for something to complain about because you enjoy it. I don't see him sticking it to the Oilers. I could totally see him doing a Turris and if in that last year he's not useful anymore. Being "demoted" but just staying around Edmonton collecting cheques. His salary can be completely buried if you need too. Nothing to see here in my opinion.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824243 is a reply to message #824242 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

clutchlikeeberle
Messages: 252
Registered: April 2012

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The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824244 is a reply to message #824243 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:00

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

10000000%

Swap in whoever certain fans want as a GM and the second year wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824245 is a reply to message #824242 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:02

Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007

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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:28

Your retirement edit was not there when I commented.

Regardless, I am not going to take much time to get into this with you. Everyone here thought he should be resigned and they got him for barely above league min. Year 2, if the cap is shooting up like it's supposed too, his contract might be less than league min so I am not going to get all bent out of shape over paying a pretty useful guy pennies to stay around. ....

Sheesh RD, don't have to be all dismissive and all about a perspective! Chill my friend. Your point is sound, I agree with you but Adam is right there saying Ryan *could* saddle the Oilers with dead cap space should he choose to retire. Maybe he won't but my crystal ball is in the shop..

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824246 is a reply to message #824245 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:09

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:28

Your retirement edit was not there when I commented.

Regardless, I am not going to take much time to get into this with you. Everyone here thought he should be resigned and they got him for barely above league min. Year 2, if the cap is shooting up like it's supposed too, his contract might be less than league min so I am not going to get all bent out of shape over paying a pretty useful guy pennies to stay around. ....

Sheesh RD, don't have to be all dismissive and all about a perspective! Chill my friend. Your point is sound, I agree with you but Adam is right there saying Ryan *could* saddle the Oilers with dead cap space should he choose to retire. Maybe he won't but my crystal ball is in the shop..

Known NHL salary cap expert site tweeting an hour ago that the way Ryan's deal is structured, it DOES NOT fall under the 35+ contract status and CAN be fully buried with no penalty to the team. So again, a zero risk deal.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824247 is a reply to message #824243 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:35

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

Insert Darnell Nurse's name for ol'Dutchy? icon_lol

icon_lol

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824248 is a reply to message #824246 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:38

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:09

Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:28

Your retirement edit was not there when I commented.

Regardless, I am not going to take much time to get into this with you. Everyone here thought he should be resigned and they got him for barely above league min. Year 2, if the cap is shooting up like it's supposed too, his contract might be less than league min so I am not going to get all bent out of shape over paying a pretty useful guy pennies to stay around. ....

Sheesh RD, don't have to be all dismissive and all about a perspective! Chill my friend. Your point is sound, I agree with you but Adam is right there saying Ryan *could* saddle the Oilers with dead cap space should he choose to retire. Maybe he won't but my crystal ball is in the shop..

Known NHL salary cap expert site tweeting an hour ago that the way Ryan's deal is structured, it DOES NOT fall under the 35+ contract status and CAN be fully buried with no penalty to the team. So again, a zero risk deal.

Even if there was a risk, you can always incentivize him to stick around for the year rather than retiring. Derek Ryan screams future NHL management. Plus if he is signing a 2 year deal, he is likely looking to play two more years.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824249 is a reply to message #824244 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:47

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:00

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

10000000%

Swap in whoever certain fans want as a GM and the second year wouldn't be an issue.

Untrue. Holland gets critiqued like any passionate and knowledgeable fan base does to their own current GM. We are no better, or no different and we all suffer PTSD from past GM's bad deals.

If Zito was our GM he would be scrutinized. We are intimately connected to our team and being critical is not a bad thing and that accounts for our scrutiny.

Although I do get a kick out of how easily you appear to get worked up (or at least that is how it appears in the written word) about a few people who you have never met and have no bearing on your life. If an 'Adam' applied at your place of work, would your first reaction be one of dismay, haha? I feel he lives rent free in your head.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824250 is a reply to message #824244 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 16:48

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:00

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

10000000%

Swap in whoever certain fans want as a GM and the second year wouldn't be an issue.

Well, yes. If the Oilers had a general manager who had a track record in Edmonton of making smart decisions that made the hockey team better and didn't ignore obvious problems despite watching those problems tank the team year after stupid year people likely would have a garnered a bit of trust.

But we don't have that. We're Oilers fans. Without having earned that trust earned by years of steady management and smart decision making the prudent course of action is to assume this signing won't solve the same problems that have existed for years. These problems include depth forwards who should help with scoring, defensive coverage, the PK all of which have been a problem for DK's entire time in Edmonton.

So the question should not be, 'is this a good value contract for 2 years of Derek Ryan?' It might be, but it doesn't answer whether or not Derek Ryan is the right player to fix the problems the Oilers have. Does DK solve the problems DK couldn't solve? Personally I'd rather have a more expensive fix for the problem than a cheaper continuation of the problem.

Now, this is a cheap contract and a good price for a Derek Ryan. The secondary question is, why do you need Derek Ryan right now on June 13th? He obviously wants to be here, which is nice, and the small cap savings is also nice, but it does tie the Oilers hands as they enter into the pre-draft trade window and free agency. Maybe that 800k could have been better spent? We'll never know because this was a deal that obviously couldn't wait until July 13th or August 13th or September 13th. Apparently when you have the chance to sign a 36 year depth player on slightly cheaper contract you have to do it right freaking now. Priority A1+.

Thirdly, if you're buying a lower cap hit with extra years that can be buried, why not go 3 years at a buck over the league minimum? a half million in cost savings is better than 300k, right?

So all in all, it's not a terrible signing, but I have a couple of big picture concerns.

I also hope that Ken's obvious cap circumvention by having this somehow not count as a 35+ contract doesn't cost the Oilers a 3rd round pick.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824251 is a reply to message #824250 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 17:01

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:00

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:57

The 2nd year is moot; if this was a Bill Zito who signed this deal he would be a genius. But because KH can do nothing good, they have to find something to complain about.

10000000%

Swap in whoever certain fans want as a GM and the second year wouldn't be an issue.

Well, yes. If the Oilers had a general manager who had a track record in Edmonton of making smart decisions that made the hockey team better and didn't ignore obvious problems despite watching those problems tank the team year after stupid year people likely would have a garnered a bit of trust.

But we don't have that. We're Oilers fans. Without having earned that trust earned by years of steady management and smart decision making the prudent course of action is to assume this signing won't solve the same problems that have existed for years. These problems include depth forwards who should help with scoring, defensive coverage, the PK all of which have been a problem for DK's entire time in Edmonton.

So the question should not be, 'is this a good value contract for 2 years of Derek Ryan?' It might be, but it doesn't answer whether or not Derek Ryan is the right player to fix the problems the Oilers have. Does DK solve the problems DK couldn't solve? Personally I'd rather have a more expensive fix for the problem than a cheaper continuation of the problem.

Now, this is a cheap contract and a good price for a Derek Ryan. The secondary question is, why do you need Derek Ryan right now on June 13th? He obviously wants to be here, which is nice, and the small cap savings is also nice, but it does tie the Oilers hands as they enter into the pre-draft trade window and free agency. Maybe that 800k could have been better spent? We'll never know because this was a deal that obviously couldn't wait until July 13th or August 13th or September 13th. Apparently when you have the chance to sign a 36 year depth player on slightly cheaper contract you have to do it right freaking now. Priority A1+.

Thirdly, if you're buying a lower cap hit with extra years that can be buried, why not go 3 years at a buck over the league minimum? a half million in cost savings is better than 300k, right?

So all in all, it's not a terrible signing, but I have a couple of big picture concerns.

I also hope that Ken's obvious cap circumvention by having this somehow not count as a 35+ contract doesn't cost the Oilers a 3rd round pick.

If the plan was to re-sign Derek Ryan at that value all along, what matter does it make when he signs it? You can be over the salary cap until opening night of the 23/24 season. That salary does not tie the hands of anyone. The team has identified a player that brings an intrinsic value to the team that has been identified as a need. Derek Ryan helps this team right now, and we could use more players like him (but younger). Plus they can still add around him, or even replace him entirely.

Third point is kinda crazy talk. Why not offer him 5 years? I think you might be getting a bit defensive in your stance.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824252 is a reply to message #824247 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 17:45

clutchlikeeberle
Messages: 252
Registered: April 2012

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Seeing you mention Nurse, need I remind you of a second straight horrid playoff performance but a 9 mill dollar guy that can't clear a crease or be aware of his surroundings...but again I didn't originally bring up the anchor

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824253 is a reply to message #824251 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 18:15

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 17:01

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:48

Well, yes. If the Oilers had a general manager who had a track record in Edmonton of making smart decisions that made the hockey team better and didn't ignore obvious problems despite watching those problems tank the team year after stupid year people likely would have a garnered a bit of trust.

But we don't have that. We're Oilers fans. Without having earned that trust earned by years of steady management and smart decision making the prudent course of action is to assume this signing won't solve the same problems that have existed for years. These problems include depth forwards who should help with scoring, defensive coverage, the PK all of which have been a problem for DK's entire time in Edmonton.

So the question should not be, 'is this a good value contract for 2 years of Derek Ryan?' It might be, but it doesn't answer whether or not Derek Ryan is the right player to fix the problems the Oilers have. Does DK solve the problems DK couldn't solve? Personally I'd rather have a more expensive fix for the problem than a cheaper continuation of the problem.

Now, this is a cheap contract and a good price for a Derek Ryan. The secondary question is, why do you need Derek Ryan right now on June 13th? He obviously wants to be here, which is nice, and the small cap savings is also nice, but it does tie the Oilers hands as they enter into the pre-draft trade window and free agency. Maybe that 800k could have been better spent? We'll never know because this was a deal that obviously couldn't wait until July 13th or August 13th or September 13th. Apparently when you have the chance to sign a 36 year depth player on slightly cheaper contract you have to do it right freaking now. Priority A1+.

Thirdly, if you're buying a lower cap hit with extra years that can be buried, why not go 3 years at a buck over the league minimum? a half million in cost savings is better than 300k, right?

So all in all, it's not a terrible signing, but I have a couple of big picture concerns.

I also hope that Ken's obvious cap circumvention by having this somehow not count as a 35+ contract doesn't cost the Oilers a 3rd round pick.

If the plan was to re-sign Derek Ryan at that value all along, what matter does it make when he signs it? You can be over the salary cap until opening night of the 23/24 season. That salary does not tie the hands of anyone. The team has identified a player that brings an intrinsic value to the team that has been identified as a need. Derek Ryan helps this team right now, and we could use more players like him (but younger). Plus they can still add around him, or even replace him entirely.

Third point is kinda crazy talk. Why not offer him 5 years? I think you might be getting a bit defensive in your stance.

The third point is crazy talk, but I'd argue it's exactly as crazy as the second year.

There are four reasons to wait:
1. You might find a better Derek Ryan is available
2. You might need flexibility to make a draft day trade, the extra 900k could help. Yes, you can go over the cap in summer, but ultimately you have to get below it. Why risk having to send him down this season? You might also be able to give him an extra 50k if savings are found elsewhere. I know the Oilers aren't starting with LTIRs next year, but someone might blow out a knee this summer. Flexibility matters.
3. You might need cap space to defend against a move on a particular RFA
4. It's Derek Ryan, let's figure out Bouchard first THEN get onto the hard work of re-signing Derek Ryan.
Bonus reason #5. I'm not worried about losing Derek Ryan. There are many Derek Ryans out there.

Again, I'm not necessarily opposed to another year (2 years) of Derek Ryan, but why is this the first move.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824256 is a reply to message #824230 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 22:43

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

2 x $900K

If it doesn't work out in the 2nd year, they can put him down in Bakersfield with no cap implications.
He's solid depth, and a good veteran pro, can help in the development of Holloway, Lavoie, Philp.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824257 is a reply to message #824236 ]	Tue, 13 June 2023 23:48

Kr55
Messages: 10779
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 14:03

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 13:48

The classic Ken Holland 2 year deal.

I like Ryan, a lot. Wouldn’t hesitate to call him our best bottom 6 forward. Possession stats are great. Hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff due to age…

I swear, it just says 2-years in the template, highlighted in yellow, but Holland doesn't know that he can change that.

Good number, decent player who contributes. The second year is stupid. He's 36 and most guys that age are on one-year deals. How many did Thornton sign? How many did Spezza? The Oilers were maybe worried that he'd get a second year from someone on the open market, but if he's comfortable here, then he's probably not in a hurry to leave and if someone else wants to make a mistake, then let them.

EDIT: Worth noting, while if Ryan continued to play we could send him to the minors and be rid of his cap hit, due to his age when signing, if he retired, the Oilers would be stuck with the hit.

I can't see Ryan retiring and messing us over, but for sure, the extra year always is pretty funny. The guy really really wants to play here. He probably isn't thinking for a second to leave. What is so hard about just saying you're happy to keep him on 1 year deals as long as he feels he's still able to be a reliable bottom 6 guy? He knows you like him, and just keeps his drive up to keep his game in check to get the next deal. Is that really so unreasonable for us to do?

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824258 is a reply to message #824252 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 00:41

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 17:45

Seeing you mention Nurse, need I remind you of a second straight horrid playoff performance but a 9 mill dollar guy that can't clear a crease or be aware of his surroundings...but again I didn't originally bring up the anchor

Out of interest, who signed him to that $9MM/year contract?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824260 is a reply to message #824256 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 00:49

CrusaderPi
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Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 22:43

2 x $900K

If it doesn't work out in the 2nd year, they can put him down in Bakersfield with no cap implications.
He's solid depth, and a good veteran pro, can help in the development of Holloway, Lavoie, Philp.

It’s a pretty good rule that if you’re selling the explaining it can be easily sent down, it’s not a good contract. Easily mitigated and minimal upside seems rather pointless. Box checked though. So yay.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 June 2023 00:52]

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824266 is a reply to message #824258 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 08:32

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

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Adam wrote on Wed, 14 June 2023 00:41

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 17:45

Seeing you mention Nurse, need I remind you of a second straight horrid playoff performance but a 9 mill dollar guy that can't clear a crease or be aware of his surroundings...but again I didn't originally bring up the anchor

Out of interest, who signed him to that $9MM/year contract?

Holland can share that blame with the previous regime. I get people's distrust of management in Edmonton. They have earned the reputation.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824267 is a reply to message #824248 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 08:37

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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inverno76 wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:38

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:09

Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 16:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 15:28

Your retirement edit was not there when I commented.

Regardless, I am not going to take much time to get into this with you. Everyone here thought he should be resigned and they got him for barely above league min. Year 2, if the cap is shooting up like it's supposed too, his contract might be less than league min so I am not going to get all bent out of shape over paying a pretty useful guy pennies to stay around. ....

Sheesh RD, don't have to be all dismissive and all about a perspective! Chill my friend. Your point is sound, I agree with you but Adam is right there saying Ryan *could* saddle the Oilers with dead cap space should he choose to retire. Maybe he won't but my crystal ball is in the shop..

Known NHL salary cap expert site tweeting an hour ago that the way Ryan's deal is structured, it DOES NOT fall under the 35+ contract status and CAN be fully buried with no penalty to the team. So again, a zero risk deal.

Even if there was a risk, you can always incentivize him to stick around for the year rather than retiring. Derek Ryan screams future NHL management. Plus if he is signing a 2 year deal, he is likely looking to play two more years.

He supposedly is one of the top guys every year in fitness testing. The guy looks after himself. If next season he's just a 13th forward, that's totally fine. He's signed to a contract that if the cap jumps as much as it might after next season, 900K might be league min or darn close. A team does not want a young player sitting in the pressbox as a 13th, you want a vet who knows how to play and look after himself and is prepared, who can jump in, play in a few spots and be making very little.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824268 is a reply to message #824252 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 08:41

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

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clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 17:45

Seeing you mention Nurse, need I remind you of a second straight horrid playoff performance but a 9 mill dollar guy that can't clear a crease or be aware of his surroundings...but again I didn't originally bring up the anchor

Just saying your hatred towards Nurse is a comparable to Holland detractors.

Nurse is overpaid, but he is not a bad d-man. He is just not a 9M d-man.

Holland has flaws, particularly his nonsensical press conferences, lack of cap creativity and stories of Red Wings lore, but after last year I feel he as surrounded the two superstars with enough support to be a perennial Cup contender. He for sure misspent between the pipes, regardless of he low combined cap hit.

Even if that tandem is relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things, they have no space in the cap to make changes. It may take a village to raise a child, but it multiple regimes of inept management to ruin a franchise. Not saying the team is ruined, but the fans fragile psyche is definitely taking a hit.

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824278 is a reply to message #824266 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 10:44

Adam
Messages: 7177
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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inverno76 wrote on Wed, 14 June 2023 08:32

Adam wrote on Wed, 14 June 2023 00:41

clutchlikeeberle wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 17:45

Seeing you mention Nurse, need I remind you of a second straight horrid playoff performance but a 9 mill dollar guy that can't clear a crease or be aware of his surroundings...but again I didn't originally bring up the anchor

Out of interest, who signed him to that $9MM/year contract?

Holland can share that blame with the previous regime. I get people's distrust of management in Edmonton. They have earned the reputation.

There's a lot to blame Chiarelli for, but Nurse is a tough one to pin on him.

This is the second deal he signed during the Holland era. The first, Holland decided to bridge him at $5.6MM for two years, walking him right to UFA. Then after a great season for Nurse, that could have been seen as potentially a high water mark, Holland caved and made Nurse the second highest player on the team 11 mos. before his contract was up.

There's a good argument to be made that the decision to go short-term on the prior contract is what hurt us most here. You might instead be looking at Nurse as a $6MM blueliner with 4-5 years left on his deal, rather than a $9MM one with 7 more years.

It goes to the heart of the matter on the Ryan deal too. Holland is a pretty easy guy to negotiate against. He's not great at this and doesn't have a lot of foresight. Let's take a look at his 2 year deals with the Oilers (excluding rookie deals):

Summer 2019
Jujhar Khaira - $1.2MM - only played 40 games in the second season and let walk after no qualifying offer
Alex Chiasson - 2.15MM - only played 45 games in the second season and left as UFA

In-season 2019-20
Caleb Jones - $850K - traded after first season of the deal.
Darnell Nurse - $5.6MM - discussed above - probably a mistake not to sign long-term at that point.
Josh Archibald - $1.5MM - Selfish anti-vaxx stance created serious issues. Very costly player in post-season at end of second year at fault on so many goals against.

Summer 2020 (extended summer lasting until Dec)
Jesse Puljujarvi - $1.175MM - got a big raise after this deal was over?
Kyle Turris - $1.65MM - Terrible in both seasons. Played a grand total of 50 awful games for the Oilers. Was "injured" for most of the second year.
William Lagesson - $750K - demanded a trade in Year 2. Only played 49 games on that contract. Was a throw-in in the Kulak deal
Ethan Bear - $2MM - ill-advisedly traded after a disappointing first year of the contract. We do still have Warren Foegele though, so there's that. Sadly, we're short on decent right shot defencemen.

Summer 2021
Devin Shore - $700K - Played 47 mediocre games in Year 2, although always around the team. One hell of a cheerleader though.
Mike Smith - $2.2MM - "Injured" for his second season. Still baffling why he got a two year deal given that he was 73 when he signed this.
Slater Koekkoek - $925K - Absent for entire second season with some mental health challenges. We did get a big 19 games out of him in the first season, which was one more than he played for us the year before in earning that two-year deal. For me, the Oilers highlight will always be Ken Holland saying he couldn't acquire more players at the deadline just in case Slater Koekkoek returned from injury before the playoffs...

Summer 2022
Brad Malone - $762.5K - Just a guy, but we get more of him next year. Played 10 NHL games for the Oilers in Year 1, going 0-0-0 and -4
Calvin Pickard - $762.5K. Third string goalie with NHL past. Might block prospects in that spot if we had any worth mentioning.
Greg McKegg - $762.5K - 30 year old journeyman center with an NHL past who will get another year on the Condors. So far not a sniff with the Oilers.
Kailer Yamamoto - $3.1MM - possibly someone the team moves this summer, although it might cost us to move him given the size of that contract and Holland's decidedly poor negotiating skills.

Summer 2023
Derek Ryan - Hopefully goes better than 90+% of the above deals. The record sure ain't great though so it shouldn't surprise anyone if he's retired or under-performing in 2024-25.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Derek Ryan Re-signs with the Oilers [message #824300 is a reply to message #824236 ]	Wed, 14 June 2023 15:10

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 13:03

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 13 June 2023 13:48

The classic Ken Holland 2 year deal.

I like Ryan, a lot. Wouldn’t hesitate to call him our best bottom 6 forward. Possession stats are great. Hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff due to age…

I swear, it just says 2-years in the template, highlighted in yellow, but Holland doesn't know that he can change that.

Good number, decent player who contributes. The second year is stupid. He's 36 and most guys that age are on one-year deals. How many did Thornton sign? How many did Spezza? The Oilers were maybe worried that he'd get a second year from someone on the open market, but if he's comfortable here, then he's probably not in a hurry to leave and if someone else wants to make a mistake, then let them.

EDIT: Worth noting, while if Ryan continued to play we could send him to the minors and be rid of his cap hit, due to his age when signing, if he retired, the Oilers would be stuck with the hit.

Let's not forget that Holland is willing to bury a non-producing veteran player. I don't think Mike Smith chose to stay injured all season long. Holland forced it. That 2-year deal didn't hurt the Oilers at all. And this one shouldn't either.

You're always complaining about Holland not being creative, but these two year deals are creative. He's getting a lower cap hit without any real risk during that second year. This isn't to say that he can't be more creative in other areas, particularly trades.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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