| Toronto Looking for new GM + [message #823793] |
Fri, 19 May 2023 13:57  |
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 Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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Hoping he doesn't go to Calgary and they hire "in house" .. like Conroy
[Updated on: Fri, 19 May 2023 14:20]
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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According to Seravalli, Dubas screwed himself, was trying to play hardball, Shanny had enough, and is now looking elsewhere.. pushed him a l i t t l e too far.
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Frank Seravalli@frank_seravalli
Brendan Shanahan's timeline outlining negotiations with Kyle Dubas is a bombshell.
After Dubas' press conf (against Shanahan's wishes), Shanahan had a "shift in thinking." And when Dubas' agent presented a "new financial package," Shanahan said he "got to a different place."
12:17 PM · May 19, 2023
Frank Seravalli@frank_seravalli
In other words, if you read between the lines, Shanahan believes Dubas overplayed his hand and the Maple Leafs cut the chord.
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McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007
1 Cup
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Hard to believe they are going to find somebody better and more creative than Dubas.
Honestly, Oilers should be all over this rather than handing Staios an increased role.
Clean house or bust
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7825
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| smyth260 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 14:43 |
Hard to believe they are going to find somebody better and more creative than Dubas.
Honestly, Oilers should be all over this rather than handing Staios an increased role.
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At the very least they should interview him for a job to see what he thinks.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 13:56 |
..At the very least they should interview him for a job to see what he thinks.
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Someone on LT's site said same thing.. it would be worth the money/effort for an outside the franchise evaluation, and perceptions.
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
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| smyth260 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 14:43 |
Hard to believe they are going to find somebody better and more creative than Dubas.
Honestly, Oilers should be all over this rather than handing Staios an increased role.
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Can you explain to me why the Oilers should be all over Dubas?
What has his "creativity" gotten them?
Has his team had any better playoff success than the Oilers? No the Oilers have more.
Are they in a better cap situation? No, I think it's worse. They have over 40 mill invested in 4 guys, all forwards that score less than the Oilers top 4 forwards. Leafs got 146 goals, 351 pts from their big 4. Oilers got 189 goals, 468 pts while paying 31.6. So it's not close. More points for way less.
Is their goaltending better? No
Defense better? No
This deadline. The Leafs trading their 2023 1st and a 2024 2nd for O'Rielly and what do they have to show for it. Nothing.
The Leafs are the richest team in the NHL. They have the most resources and what's Dubas done to put them over the top? Nothing.
[Updated on: Fri, 19 May 2023 15:12]
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smyth260
Messages: 1086
Registered: November 2007
1 Cup
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What do we have to show for 8 years of McDavid and Draisaitl, the #1 and #2 scorers virtually every year in the league? Just 3 rounds won in the Holland tenure.
We can all talk about how the Oilers are better than the Leafs because we finally managed to win a few rounds and they only won 1. Fact is that 4 out of the last 5 years the Leafs have finished significantly higher than us in the regular season. The one year they didn’t they were a measly 2 points behind us with a game in hand in a Covid cut season. They have averaged 106 points per year in the Dubas years without having McDavid/Draisaitl at their disposal. He’s a very good GM, he has a track record that speaks for itself. It’s not without flaws, but he more progressive and assertive than a lot of managers around the league.
If you want to hand the keys to Steve Staios or Brad Holland because Bob Stauffer says nice things about them and they sounded good in one article, be my guest.
Clean house or bust
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RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
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| smyth260 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
What do we have to show for 8 years of McDavid and Draisaitl, the #1 and #2 scorers virtually every year in the league? Just 3 rounds won in the Holland tenure.
We can all talk about how the Oilers are better than the Leafs because we finally managed to win a few rounds and they only won 1. Fact is that 4 out of the last 5 years the Leafs have finished significantly higher than us in the regular season. The one year they didn’t they were a measly 2 points behind us with a game in hand in a Covid cut season. They have averaged 106 points per year in the Dubas years without having McDavid/Draisaitl at their disposal. He’s a very good GM, he has a track record that speaks for itself. It’s not without flaws, but he more progressive and assertive than a lot of managers around the league.
If you want to hand the keys to Steve Staios or Brad Holland because Bob Stauffer says nice things about them and they sounded good in one article, be my guest.
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I am not disagreeing that the Oilers could be farther ahead but I wouldn't hand the keys to Dubas. My big reason is I don't want him negotiating the Oilers next key deals.
I said it in another thread. I think the Tavares contract is terrible. You had a guy who was dying to play for the Leafs. It was his dream. So that in my opinion should mean there should be a discount but he got max term and max dollars. Paying Tavarese 11 mill is way too much. He's the 6th highest paid players in the league and he's not close to being that.
He signed Marner to 10.9 mill on a 6 yr deal. First of all, why isn't it max term. Secondly, in my opinion that's top end money for the guy. So they gave him top end money for less term. So Marner wins twice.
Matthews is even worse. He gave him 11.6 mill, 900k less than McD which was the standard at the time. Which is a joke, then worse 5 yrs. So he got top, top end month with little term.
3 brutal contracts that he negotiated.
On the flip side, and I am not advocating for Holland to stay after next season. I'd like to see a succession plan for him changing. They identified Hyman as a guy they need to target. He's been a hell of a signing so far. 7 yrs is a bit long but at 5.5 mill, for a guy that has gotten you 27 and 36 goals and probably has at minimum 3-4 more years of 25+ with the cap going up, that's a good contract even when he gets older.
Nuge really wanted to be an Oiler. So they signed him for a discount. On the open market, he I bet gets a lot more. I don't love the 8 yrs but at 5.125 mill, that's a good cap hit. I don't think he's a 37, 104 guy but I think he can get you 25 - 55-60 for 4-5 yrs.
Kane. They wanted Kane back. He thought he was worth more. He let him go out, check things out, came back signed him for 4 yrs, 5.125 mill. That's a good contract. He was on a 32 goal pace this year.
Do I love the Nurse contract? No, I think he makes too much but like I have said many times, it was a perfect storm and he got market value.
Campbell contract, I am not sure yet. This year, I don't love it but I could see him bouncing back big time.
So whether it was all Holland or someone else in the organization, they have done a pretty darn good job at signing big ticket guys for the most part. Way better than Dubas in my opinion.
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Dragon_Matt
Messages: 776
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton
No Cups
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Nurse was a perfect storm... and Holand was on the X-men to make it happen that way.
I sure hope he retires. He has substantially more misses than hits.
Kane, Nuge and Ekholm are his 3 big wins. I suppose bringing PJ back and getting 'an' asset for him was worthwhile.
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kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas
No Cups
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| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 17:19 |
| smyth260 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
What do we have to show for 8 years of McDavid and Draisaitl, the #1 and #2 scorers virtually every year in the league? Just 3 rounds won in the Holland tenure.
We can all talk about how the Oilers are better than the Leafs because we finally managed to win a few rounds and they only won 1. Fact is that 4 out of the last 5 years the Leafs have finished significantly higher than us in the regular season. The one year they didn’t they were a measly 2 points behind us with a game in hand in a Covid cut season. They have averaged 106 points per year in the Dubas years without having McDavid/Draisaitl at their disposal. He’s a very good GM, he has a track record that speaks for itself. It’s not without flaws, but he more progressive and assertive than a lot of managers around the league.
If you want to hand the keys to Steve Staios or Brad Holland because Bob Stauffer says nice things about them and they sounded good in one article, be my guest.
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I am not disagreeing that the Oilers could be farther ahead but I wouldn't hand the keys to Dubas. My big reason is I don't want him negotiating the Oilers next key deals.
I said it in another thread. I think the Tavares contract is terrible. You had a guy who was dying to play for the Leafs. It was his dream. So that in my opinion should mean there should be a discount but he got max term and max dollars. Paying Tavarese 11 mill is way too much. He's the 6th highest paid players in the league and he's not close to being that.
He signed Marner to 10.9 mill on a 6 yr deal. First of all, why isn't it max term. Secondly, in my opinion that's top end money for the guy. So they gave him top end money for less term. So Marner wins twice.
Matthews is even worse. He gave him 11.6 mill, 900k less than McD which was the standard at the time. Which is a joke, then worse 5 yrs. So he got top, top end month with little term.
3 brutal contracts that he negotiated.
On the flip side, and I am not advocating for Holland to stay after next season. I'd like to see a succession plan for him changing. They identified Hyman as a guy they need to target. He's been a hell of a signing so far. 7 yrs is a bit long but at 5.5 mill, for a guy that has gotten you 27 and 36 goals and probably has at minimum 3-4 more years of 25+ with the cap going up, that's a good contract even when he gets older.
Nuge really wanted to be an Oiler. So they signed him for a discount. On the open market, he I bet gets a lot more. I don't love the 8 yrs but at 5.125 mill, that's a good cap hit. I don't think he's a 37, 104 guy but I think he can get you 25 - 55-60 for 4-5 yrs.
Kane. They wanted Kane back. He thought he was worth more. He let him go out, check things out, came back signed him for 4 yrs, 5.125 mill. That's a good contract. He was on a 32 goal pace this year.
Do I love the Nurse contract? No, I think he makes too much but like I have said many times, it was a perfect storm and he got market value.
Campbell contract, I am not sure yet. This year, I don't love it but I could see him bouncing back big time.
So whether it was all Holland or someone else in the organization, they have done a pretty darn good job at signing big ticket guys for the most part. Way better than Dubas in my opinion.
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Yeah all very good points. The timeline of the Dubas fallout went like this:
1) Leafs season ends
2) Shanahan offers Dubas a contract extension for his services
3) Dubas has his presser Monday May 15th, 2023 complaining about how taxing the GM position is on himself & his family
4) Dubas ghosts for 1-2 days
5) Dubas counters Shanahan's extension offer wanting even more money
6) Shanahan responds with enough is enough
The way Dubas handled his own negotiations with Shanahan along with the Tavares contract just seem irreconcilable as to why this guy should not be anywhere close to the Oilers organization.
Tavares basically wanted to "come home to the Leafs" while selling himself as a core leadership piece when the captain obvious intentions = getting top dollar to hide behind Marner/Matthews. If you think the Oilers are thin on the right side of their defence, look at the Leafs situation in the last several years where they've been even thinner on that side.
Great points on the Hyman/Kane/Nuge contracts being at reasonable rates.
Once again, the Nurse contract is atrocious but it was obviously done to please both #29/#97. Makes me wonder if giving him a 7 mil AAV years ago instead of the two year bridge deal would've been cheaper but who knows.
[Updated on: Sat, 20 May 2023 13:42]
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Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
6 Cups
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| kungpaobenji27 wrote on Sat, 20 May 2023 13:33 |
Yeah all very good points. The timeline of the Dubas fallout went like this:
1) Leafs season ends
2) Shanahan offers Dubas a contract extension for his services
3) Dubas has his presser Monday May 15th, 2023 complaining about how taxing the GM position is on himself & his family
4) Dubas ghosts for 1-2 days
5) Dubas counters Shanahan's extension offer wanting even more money
6) Shanahan responds with enough is enough
The way Dubas handled his own negotiations with Shanahan along with the Tavares contract just seem irreconcilable as to why this guy should not be anywhere close to the Oilers organization.
Tavares basically wanted to "come home to the Leafs" while selling himself as a core leadership piece when the captain obvious intentions = getting top dollar to hide behind Marner/Matthews. If you think the Oilers are thin on the right side of their defence, look at the Leafs situation in the last several years where they've been even thinner on that side.
Great points on the Hyman/Kane/Nuge contracts being at reasonable rates.
Once again, the Nurse contract is atrocious but it was obviously done to please both #29/#97. Makes me wonder if giving him a 7 mil AAV years ago instead of the two year bridge deal would've been cheaper but who knows.
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I don't know why anyone is portraying Dubas as the villain here. He asked a year ago about an extension and the Leafs decided to play out his contract. Then they decided they did want him when the year was pretty much up, and despite setting a situation where he's an unrestricted free agent in weeks, and where they have massive decisions to make in that same period of time, they act like him giving them a counter-offer is an outrage and decide to end the conversation.
As I said before, the person in the GM chair over the next 12 months for the Leafs faces massive decisions, and likely some unpopular ones. He probably should be paid as high as any other GM in the league. It will be interesting to see who takes the Leafs job - it's a lot easier to accept all the gross pressures that come with being in that role in Toronto when you have a young core with years under team control. When you face the end of Matthews contract, looming decisions on trades or free agency and, to make it worse, no-trade clauses that kick in on July 1 this year for not just Matthews, but also Marner?
I have a hard time seeing how that's a situation where you can come out with a win. You might very well be presiding over a rebuild in a couple years time in a market where you'll be scrutinized every day.
Shanahan should have brought out the chequebook a lot earlier if he wanted Dubas around.
"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks
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Dragon_Matt
Messages: 776
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton
No Cups
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And who ahs more experience trading CORE pieces than good old pistol Pete. They need someone who knows his way around the negotiating table and sticks to his guns.
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NCREDiBLE
Messages: 258
Registered: February 2007
Location: Cold Lake, AB
No Cups
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I agree, I don’t find Dubas the villian I actually like the guy.
I hope he lands the job in Pittsburgh.
Seen on Twitter that Dubas in 2019 I think it was, blocked in a trade from getting TAGE for a 5th because they were low on draft picks that year.. A FIFTH!!!!
Meanwhile Shannahan sits comfy making 7 mill a year.
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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Article from DFO about their top 9 GM candidates to replace Dubby.
This is a potential list (+ Dubas, - Pridham)) for Flames as well.. lets hope they pick Conroy!
https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/nine-candidates-to-replace -kyle-dubas-as-toronto-maple-leafs-gm
Staios is one of them..
B. Treliving
M. Bergevin .. please! :)
J. Spezza ! .. ?
M. Darche (Tampa AGM)
K. Draper (Director Amateur Scouting, Detroit)
B. Pridham (current Leaf AGM)
E. Tulsky (Canes AGM)
R. Whitney (NHL Director of Player Safety)
S. Staios
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
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| Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:27 |
Article from DFO about their top 9 GM candidates to replace Dubby.
This is a potential list (+ Dubas, - Pridham)) for Flames as well.. lets hope they pick Conroy!
https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/nine-candidates-to-replace -kyle-dubas-as-toronto-maple-leafs-gm
Staios is one of them..
B. Treliving
M. Bergevin .. please! :)
J. Spezza ! .. ?
M. Darche (Tampa AGM)
K. Draper (Director Amateur Scouting, Detroit)
B. Pridham (current Leaf AGM)
E. Tulsky (Canes AGM)
R. Whitney (NHL Director of Player Safety)
S. Staios
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Tre would be a strong candidate. I think he did some good things. Everything I hear from Calgary makes me believe he didn't have full control on what he could and couldn't do. Sure sounds like just making the playoffs so they could get there couple of first round home games was very important to the owner vs trying to build a team that could win.
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RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016
3 Cups
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Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Dubas sat on a hand that was weaker than he realized.
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7825
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:55 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Dubas sat on a hand that was weaker than he realized.
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Depends if he wanted to keep the job. He might have set a high price intentionally.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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g2k
Messages: 2846
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood
2 Cups
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Bingo has been called.
This organization we cheer for needs to explore every opportunity. Sadly Bob Nicholson is still in the organization we cheer for.
#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep
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Adam
Messages: 7191
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
6 Cups
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 17:56 |
| Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:55 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Dubas sat on a hand that was weaker than he realized.
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Depends if he wanted to keep the job. He might have set a high price intentionally.
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Exactly. Dubas isn’t toxic - he will walk in to another job whenever he wants it. Toronto didn’t offer him an extension until after the season, so he might not feel super fond of them. Toronto is facing a possible massive rebuild in a town where their media is as bad or even possibly worse than Edmonton. It’s going to be a thankless job if you’re trading Auston Matthews.
He may have asked for the moon - if so he did it after mentioning he wouldn’t mind taking a short break - but if so I think it probably is a smart decision for him. Now we see if the break he needs is the summer or a full year or what. I do expect he will re-emerge in the shorter term.
"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4449
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:56 |
| Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:55 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Dubas sat on a hand that was weaker than he realized.
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Depends if he wanted to keep the job. He might have set a high price intentionally.
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True, where he winds up might shed some light on whether it was him or the Leafs letting go.
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7825
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 20 May 2023 16:17 |
| CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:56 |
| Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 16:55 |
| RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 15:33 |
Spezza resigned as well.
Sure sounds like Dubas thought pretty high of himself and fired a contract back way higher than what they had been working on.
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Dubas sat on a hand that was weaker than he realized.
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Depends if he wanted to keep the job. He might have set a high price intentionally.
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True, where he winds up might shed some light on whether it was him or the Leafs letting go.
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100%. If he ends up in Columbus this year we know.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas
No Cups
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Seems like Brad Treliving is the frontrunner....if he wants the job per TSN
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