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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823685 is a reply to message #823683 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:56

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:35

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:29

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

Yay getting to be the 4th most important player on a historical PP. Doesn't change that his inability to drive play at all 5v5 was a big reason we could not have McDrai separated.

But enough Nuge bashing. Ceci

Still a part of the historic PP.

Honestly, I think if we're going to continue Nuge bashing (and we can bash Nuge AND Ceci, we've got time) we should focus on his defense and the -6.

He was part for sure, heck of a year on the PP. Nuge, McDavid and Drai were on point with their shooting all season. Hope we see that again.

IMO, the -6 was a consequence of not being able to push offensively without his linemates doing the vast majority of the possession. Again though, not that mad at Nuge, not outraged like some are. I know what he is, and he can still be very useful in the top 6 on the wing. The issue was too many other wingers were busted, and Yams just struggled bad the whole way as well. It's a bummer that a 1st OA can't take control of things himself a bit and needs an ideal situation to be created for him to be productive 5v5, but he is what he is and is worth his salary, playing PK too. Regardless of his 5v5 issues, you are not easily replacing what Nuge does for same AAV. If he got a 7.5M+, we could have a bigger beef.

There are players playing almost exactly like you expect, and are useful doing it, and you WISH they would do more, just because it's playoffs and you want guys to hit another effort level. That's basically Nuge for lots of ppl right now. Then there are guys that play like ass all year and are out there visibly causing goals against with nonsensical play :) Even then, maybe they are just playing above what they're capable of, and management took a lucky year for granted. Those are issues that actually need correction for your team to improve. Ceci.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 May 2023 10:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823689 is a reply to message #823685 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:23

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Ceci was bad, no doubt, but why was he so much better last year? I remember being pleasantly surprised by him. He played a huge role and played higher than we thought he would. If we had last year's Ceci, it would have made a huge difference. Without knowing the reason(s), I'm not sure what to do about him. Ideally they would find a better 2nd pairing RHD to play with Nurse and move Ceci down to third pair, but I'm not sure they can afford Ceci's salary on the third pair. His salary is good value for 2nd pair, but high for third pair. He's trapped and it's a tough spot for the Oilers. Trading him and upgrading may be best, but I'm not sure who the other player is or what they would cost. We also need better depth on RHD in general.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823691 is a reply to message #823689 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:48

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:23

Ceci was bad, no doubt, but why was he so much better last year? I remember being pleasantly surprised by him. He played a huge role and played higher than we thought he would. If we had last year's Ceci, it would have made a huge difference. Without knowing the reason(s), I'm not sure what to do about him. Ideally they would find a better 2nd pairing RHD to play with Nurse and move Ceci down to third pair, but I'm not sure they can afford Ceci's salary on the third pair. His salary is good value for 2nd pair, but high for third pair. He's trapped and it's a tough spot for the Oilers. Trading him and upgrading may be best, but I'm not sure who the other player is or what they would cost. We also need better depth on RHD in general.

Yeah, think Ceci is a real challenge for management now. You have to make the right call on what to do with him, because depending on him to be a top 4 guy, especially with Nurse, could be a costly disaster again.

IMO, looking at his history, last year was the exception for him, and we cannot count on that happening again. Even last year, his 5v5 GF was 47.46%. Not with really tough zone starts either. Statistically his last 2 seasons look pretty similar for results. I think maybe he stood out worse this year more because so many players on this team started playing much better in the 2nd half, and he just stayed in the 1st half mode.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823695 is a reply to message #823691 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:04

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:48

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:23

Ceci was bad, no doubt, but why was he so much better last year? I remember being pleasantly surprised by him. He played a huge role and played higher than we thought he would. If we had last year's Ceci, it would have made a huge difference. Without knowing the reason(s), I'm not sure what to do about him. Ideally they would find a better 2nd pairing RHD to play with Nurse and move Ceci down to third pair, but I'm not sure they can afford Ceci's salary on the third pair. His salary is good value for 2nd pair, but high for third pair. He's trapped and it's a tough spot for the Oilers. Trading him and upgrading may be best, but I'm not sure who the other player is or what they would cost. We also need better depth on RHD in general.

Yeah, think Ceci is a real challenge for management now. You have to make the right call on what to do with him, because depending on him to be a top 4 guy, especially with Nurse, could be a costly disaster again.

IMO, looking at his history, last year was the exception for him, and we cannot count on that happening again. Even last year, his 5v5 GF was 47.46%. Not with really tough zone starts either. Statistically his last 2 seasons look pretty similar for results. I think maybe he stood out worse this year more because so many players on this team started playing much better in the 2nd half, and he just stayed in the 1st half mode.

Ceci was hurt, in my opinion it was pretty obvious he had a lower body/core issue as he wasn't able to get to pucks like he normally does or skate anywhere close. That doesn't mean I think he is an amazing dman, I just think he isn't as bad as he looked when healthy.

That being said, I think he's a guy that they should look to move just because I think they need a different partner for Nurse. I see Ekholm - Bouchard as a pair so I think they need a better, more steady defender to play with Nurse. I think they could move Ceci. He's a right shot who can play in your top 4 and making 3.25 mill. That's pretty cheap for a top 4 dman.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823698 is a reply to message #823691 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:16

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 13:48

Yeah, think Ceci is a real challenge for management now. You have to make the right call on what to do with him, because depending on him to be a top 4 guy, especially with Nurse, could be a costly disaster again.

IMO, looking at his history, last year was the exception for him, and we cannot count on that happening again. Even last year, his 5v5 GF was 47.46%. Not with really tough zone starts either. Statistically his last 2 seasons look pretty similar for results. I think maybe he stood out worse this year more because so many players on this team started playing much better in the 2nd half, and he just stayed in the 1st half mode.

Maybe you do consider moving him down to the 3rd pairing. Can go up to 2nd pair in case of injury for a stint? But to do that Kulak would need to go. Certainly can't have a $6M 3rd pair.

There are a few interesting RD names in the UFA pile with Dumba, Klingberg, Severson. Gudas, and a few others. For LD there's guys like Orlov, Gavrikov, Klingberg...but maybe they look at a big trade. Personally, I feel that any and all draft picks for the next couple of years should be on the table to improve the team for the next 2-3 years. I'd expand that to include any non NHL ready prospects as well.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823716 is a reply to message #823691 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:25

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:48

Steve wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:23

Ceci was bad, no doubt, but why was he so much better last year? I remember being pleasantly surprised by him. He played a huge role and played higher than we thought he would. If we had last year's Ceci, it would have made a huge difference. Without knowing the reason(s), I'm not sure what to do about him. Ideally they would find a better 2nd pairing RHD to play with Nurse and move Ceci down to third pair, but I'm not sure they can afford Ceci's salary on the third pair. His salary is good value for 2nd pair, but high for third pair. He's trapped and it's a tough spot for the Oilers. Trading him and upgrading may be best, but I'm not sure who the other player is or what they would cost. We also need better depth on RHD in general.

Yeah, think Ceci is a real challenge for management now. You have to make the right call on what to do with him, because depending on him to be a top 4 guy, especially with Nurse, could be a costly disaster again.

IMO, looking at his history, last year was the exception for him, and we cannot count on that happening again. Even last year, his 5v5 GF was 47.46%. Not with really tough zone starts either. Statistically his last 2 seasons look pretty similar for results. I think maybe he stood out worse this year more because so many players on this team started playing much better in the 2nd half, and he just stayed in the 1st half mode.

I remember a few posters objecting to him getting a four-year deal when he was signed...he's a depth guy, so why commit to him until the end of time? Especially considering he was one year removed from a disaster of a season and coming off his best ever season to that point.

Ditto Kulak for that matter. For some reason, Holland values long-term contracts for depth players over cap flexibility. Virtually everyone gets multi-year deals, and there's not much sense to it. If you love what Koekkoek or Shore or Archibald or Kulak or Ceci is bringing, you can always re-up them later, but you're talking about guys in their late 20s and 30s who are A) replaceable and B) unlikely to take a huge leap forward in their play. So sign them to short-term deals and then re-sign or replace as needed. And then if their play falls off a cliff, cut them loose.

I read a rumour that we're already considering two more years for Derek Ryan, and while I loved what he brought in the playoffs and the second half of this year, I don't see why you need to give a second year to him at this point.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823692 is a reply to message #823683 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:55

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:35

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:29

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

Yay getting to be the 4th most important player on a historical PP. Doesn't change that his inability to drive play at all 5v5 was a big reason we could not have McDrai separated.

But enough Nuge bashing. Ceci

Still a part of the historic PP.

Honestly, I think if we're going to continue Nuge bashing (and we can bash Nuge AND Ceci, we've got time) we should focus on his defense and the -6.

I get he was part of an amazing PP but a big reason the Oilers lost was their 5 on 5 scoring and Nuge is a big part of that second layer after McD and Leon.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823684 is a reply to message #823680 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823686 is a reply to message #823684 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 10:11

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

I don't know why power play offense isn't included in the mental math of offense.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a little more out of the Nuge, but fingering 11 points in 12 games as the problem is kind of silly. Like if he was 2-3-5 at EV and had 6 PP points, would we all be happy? I still think his lack of defensive responsibility was both more of a surprise and more consequential.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823693 is a reply to message #823686 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:01

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:11

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

I don't know why power play offense isn't included in the mental math of offense.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a little more out of the Nuge, but fingering 11 points in 12 games as the problem is kind of silly. Like if he was 2-3-5 at EV and had 6 PP points, would we all be happy? I still think his lack of defensive responsibility was both more of a surprise and more consequential.

I would be happier if he had more 5 on 5 points because in my opinion, the Oilers lost the series and a big reason was a lack of 5 on 5 scoring. Nuge is the head of the secondary layer of 5 on 5 scoring behind McD and Leon and he was non existent. Do I also think his defense was poor? Yes but like I said, I don't think the Oilers are ever going to be a shut down team unless they drastically change out a lot of their players. That includes Nuge. Nuge is not a great shutdown guy, never has been. He can be decent at defending but he's not a good shut down guy. So expecting him to be amazing defensively isn't going to happen. He needs to score to offset him being an average defender.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823696 is a reply to message #823693 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:13

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:01

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:11

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

I don't know why power play offense isn't included in the mental math of offense.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a little more out of the Nuge, but fingering 11 points in 12 games as the problem is kind of silly. Like if he was 2-3-5 at EV and had 6 PP points, would we all be happy? I still think his lack of defensive responsibility was both more of a surprise and more consequential.

I would be happier if he had more 5 on 5 points because in my opinion, the Oilers lost the series and a big reason was a lack of 5 on 5 scoring. Nuge is the head of the secondary layer of 5 on 5 scoring behind McD and Leon and he was non existent. Do I also think his defense was poor? Yes but like I said, I don't think the Oilers are ever going to be a shut down team unless they drastically change out a lot of their players. That includes Nuge. Nuge is not a great shutdown guy, never has been. He can be decent at defending but he's not a good shut down guy. So expecting him to be amazing defensively isn't going to happen. He needs to score to offset him being an average defender.

Sure, I agree with all of that but... the Oilers were totally dominated at even strength by the VGK. It seems odd to pick on Nuge. Honestly, if we're looking to hang goat horns on anyone we should be looking at Draisaitl's phat -7 in the last 4 games with 1 EV assist over the last 4 games. Nuge being Nuge and contributing 5 points (4 PP) as the season got shot down isn't all that bad.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823721 is a reply to message #823696 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:57

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:13

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:01

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:11

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

I don't know why power play offense isn't included in the mental math of offense.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a little more out of the Nuge, but fingering 11 points in 12 games as the problem is kind of silly. Like if he was 2-3-5 at EV and had 6 PP points, would we all be happy? I still think his lack of defensive responsibility was both more of a surprise and more consequential.

I would be happier if he had more 5 on 5 points because in my opinion, the Oilers lost the series and a big reason was a lack of 5 on 5 scoring. Nuge is the head of the secondary layer of 5 on 5 scoring behind McD and Leon and he was non existent. Do I also think his defense was poor? Yes but like I said, I don't think the Oilers are ever going to be a shut down team unless they drastically change out a lot of their players. That includes Nuge. Nuge is not a great shutdown guy, never has been. He can be decent at defending but he's not a good shut down guy. So expecting him to be amazing defensively isn't going to happen. He needs to score to offset him being an average defender.

Sure, I agree with all of that but... the Oilers were totally dominated at even strength by the VGK. It seems odd to pick on Nuge. Honestly, if we're looking to hang goat horns on anyone we should be looking at Draisaitl's phat -7 in the last 4 games with 1 EV assist over the last 4 games. Nuge being Nuge and contributing 5 points (4 PP) as the season got shot down isn't all that bad.

Worth noting that the last couple games the Oilers were NOT dominated at 5v5 but actually were the better team by the underlying numbers. Sadly, the Knights got goaltending and the Oilers did not.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823741 is a reply to message #823696 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 13:21

Jay
Messages: 561
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:13

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:01

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 10:11

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

I don't know why power play offense isn't included in the mental math of offense.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a little more out of the Nuge, but fingering 11 points in 12 games as the problem is kind of silly. Like if he was 2-3-5 at EV and had 6 PP points, would we all be happy? I still think his lack of defensive responsibility was both more of a surprise and more consequential.

I would be happier if he had more 5 on 5 points because in my opinion, the Oilers lost the series and a big reason was a lack of 5 on 5 scoring. Nuge is the head of the secondary layer of 5 on 5 scoring behind McD and Leon and he was non existent. Do I also think his defense was poor? Yes but like I said, I don't think the Oilers are ever going to be a shut down team unless they drastically change out a lot of their players. That includes Nuge. Nuge is not a great shutdown guy, never has been. He can be decent at defending but he's not a good shut down guy. So expecting him to be amazing defensively isn't going to happen. He needs to score to offset him being an average defender.

Sure, I agree with all of that but... the Oilers were totally dominated at even strength by the VGK. It seems odd to pick on Nuge. Honestly, if we're looking to hang goat horns on anyone we should be looking at Draisaitl's phat -7 in the last 4 games with 1 EV assist over the last 4 games. Nuge being Nuge and contributing 5 points (4 PP) as the season got shot down isn't all that bad.

Of course the Oilers don't even have a look at the second round without 29. I don't think RNH even played against LA. And the success he has on the PP is a direct result of defenders bending over backwards to try to stop 29/97. We all know this.

You can criticize one or the other based on your expectations or other similar players but mentioning 93 in the same breath as 29 in any sort of 'who is a more (or less) effective player' conversation is silly.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823742 is a reply to message #823741 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 14:07

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Jay wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 13:21

You can criticize one or the other based on your expectations or other similar players but mentioning 93 in the same breath as 29 in any sort of 'who is a more (or less) effective player' conversation is silly.

That's totally fair. I definitely don't expect Nuge to perform at the Drai level. I guess this conversation boils down to 'Nuge is Nuge' to me. He may not have performed entirely to my expectations this playoffs, but he didn't miss it by much.

Drai is also Drai. He blew my mind for the first 8 games until VGK shut him down.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823764 is a reply to message #823742 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 04:33

welcometotheOC
Messages: 646
Registered: April 2010
Location: Also, sadly, Cowtown

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 14:07

Jay wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 13:21

You can criticize one or the other based on your expectations or other similar players but mentioning 93 in the same breath as 29 in any sort of 'who is a more (or less) effective player' conversation is silly.

That's totally fair. I definitely don't expect Nuge to perform at the Drai level. I guess this conversation boils down to 'Nuge is Nuge' to me. He may not have performed entirely to my expectations this playoffs, but he didn't miss it by much.

Drai is also Drai. He blew my mind for the first 8 games until VGK shut him down.

You mean chopped him down. angryfire

angryfire

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823770 is a reply to message #823764 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 09:22

Jay
Messages: 561
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

welcometotheOC wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 04:33

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 14:07

Jay wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 13:21

You can criticize one or the other based on your expectations or other similar players but mentioning 93 in the same breath as 29 in any sort of 'who is a more (or less) effective player' conversation is silly.

That's totally fair. I definitely don't expect Nuge to perform at the Drai level. I guess this conversation boils down to 'Nuge is Nuge' to me. He may not have performed entirely to my expectations this playoffs, but he didn't miss it by much.

Drai is also Drai. He blew my mind for the first 8 games until VGK shut him down.

You mean chopped him down. angryfire

angryfire

Yep 93 is what he is and that's a decent complimentary winger. I think a lot of people especially after this season thought he was more than that.

I do think it's a bit crazy how people seem to be just going on about how VGK were the better team and the Oilers need to work on their defensive play etc - which they do - but I'm shocked how people are just putting aside or memory holing how Vegas actually won. That "play" by Angelo changed the entire series. Draisaitl didn't just randomly stop being dominant. It happened at the exact moment that he was directly targeted for being too good and over head two hand slashed on the wrist away from the play.

Now could he/they have responded better? Sure I guess. But that's the reason Vegas won and it's pretty interesting that no one really seems to care (only a week later) that that happened. I do wonder what the long term precedent is going to be for teams just deciding to try to take out another teams superstar when they have no answer for him.

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823712 is a reply to message #823684 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 15:11

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:55

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

You aren't coming at me with that are you?

He has 9 PP assists. Passing the puck to McD then watching him dance around and set someone else up to score isn't on the same level as scoring a freaking goal. He had 1 GOAL and 2 5 on 5 pts.

I know you love to stir the pot but come on man.

You shut up for a whole season on this, now you break out the old trope. What's your solution? What? You have a budget of $5.125 AAV in terms of a player or players you can take back in trade, and finally get this useless player out of Edmonton. I'm interested to hear the fix. And....go!

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823700 is a reply to message #823679 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 11:30

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:38

Yes I am pushing the narrative that the Oilers scoring was part of the problem. People need to get it into their heads that no matter what they do system wise, the Oilers are NEVER going to be a high end defensive team. NEVER. Their 2 best players, the guys that play a ton and will always play a ton no matter what your depth is like are not wired to play like Bergeron or Kopitar or Danault. Can they play better defense and have they learned to play better defense? Yes they have. But I believe what you see is what you are going to get with them. I don't see McD winning a Selke ever. As much as he likes to say it, I don't see Leon winning a Selke ever. Guys who win Selke's don't throw blind backhanded passes or try to go 1 on 3 when your team is doing a line change. Those things are part of McD's and Leon's game and are part of what make them so amazing offensively because they can do those things and they work. But the Oilers are not ever going to be a high end defensive team, not unless they drastically change the players. Can they improve and be better next year? 100% they can but their bread and butter as long as they have McD and Leon on the team is offense. So they need to play to that strength.

So Nuge being lousy offensively did impact the team. The Oilers didn't play well in game 1, Nuge was very bad but they lost 6-4, the 6th being an empty netter. So 1 goal would have made a difference. Game 5, they lost by 1 goal. So a goal by Nuge, a guy who scored close to 40 goals and 100 pts, would have made a difference. Nuge is on a good contract and I agree, replacing him at the price point probably wouldn't happen but his job is to produce offense and he didn't do his job.

The Oils' D does not have to be a high-end group, just good enough to complement the scoring power they have up front and not cough up leads like candy to their opponents. They are not good enough, period, as guys like Vinnie and Ceci have shown that they can't compete in the playoffs. We don't need a young Duncan Keith or Kris Letang or Chris Pronger, we need a group that can avoid making mistakes in their own end of the ice. As I have said many times before, having more D-men like Ekholm in the line-up would have been enough to give the Oil a good enough group to contend for a Cup. Ekholm is not a superstar, he just gets the job done and doesn't make catastrophic errors.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823711 is a reply to message #823700 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 14:51

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:38

Yes I am pushing the narrative that the Oilers scoring was part of the problem. People need to get it into their heads that no matter what they do system wise, the Oilers are NEVER going to be a high end defensive team. NEVER. Their 2 best players, the guys that play a ton and will always play a ton no matter what your depth is like are not wired to play like Bergeron or Kopitar or Danault. Can they play better defense and have they learned to play better defense? Yes they have. But I believe what you see is what you are going to get with them. I don't see McD winning a Selke ever. As much as he likes to say it, I don't see Leon winning a Selke ever. Guys who win Selke's don't throw blind backhanded passes or try to go 1 on 3 when your team is doing a line change. Those things are part of McD's and Leon's game and are part of what make them so amazing offensively because they can do those things and they work. But the Oilers are not ever going to be a high end defensive team, not unless they drastically change the players. Can they improve and be better next year? 100% they can but their bread and butter as long as they have McD and Leon on the team is offense. So they need to play to that strength.

So Nuge being lousy offensively did impact the team. The Oilers didn't play well in game 1, Nuge was very bad but they lost 6-4, the 6th being an empty netter. So 1 goal would have made a difference. Game 5, they lost by 1 goal. So a goal by Nuge, a guy who scored close to 40 goals and 100 pts, would have made a difference. Nuge is on a good contract and I agree, replacing him at the price point probably wouldn't happen but his job is to produce offense and he didn't do his job.

The Oils' D does not have to be a high-end group, just good enough to complement the scoring power they have up front and not cough up leads like candy to their opponents. They are not good enough, period, as guys like Vinnie and Ceci have shown that they can't compete in the playoffs. We don't need a young Duncan Keith or Kris Letang or Chris Pronger, we need a group that can avoid making mistakes in their own end of the ice. As I have said many times before, having more D-men like Ekholm in the line-up would have been enough to give the Oil a good enough group to contend for a Cup. Ekholm is not a superstar, he just gets the job done and doesn't make catastrophic errors.

I think if they were to swap Ceci for a slight upgrade on him, someone who's more consistent defense wise to play with Nurse. They basically need an Adam Larsson type. Just a solid, right shot defender who's usually in position to allow Nurse to just concentrate on his game and what he does well. In my opinion, with Ceci supposedly hurt, he wasn't able to be in position all the time or get to pucks so that caused Nurse to start to roam all over the ice trying to compensate. As soon as Nurse gets running all over the place, mistakes happen.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823717 is a reply to message #823711 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:27

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 14:51

Ragnarok73 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:38

Yes I am pushing the narrative that the Oilers scoring was part of the problem. People need to get it into their heads that no matter what they do system wise, the Oilers are NEVER going to be a high end defensive team. NEVER. Their 2 best players, the guys that play a ton and will always play a ton no matter what your depth is like are not wired to play like Bergeron or Kopitar or Danault. Can they play better defense and have they learned to play better defense? Yes they have. But I believe what you see is what you are going to get with them. I don't see McD winning a Selke ever. As much as he likes to say it, I don't see Leon winning a Selke ever. Guys who win Selke's don't throw blind backhanded passes or try to go 1 on 3 when your team is doing a line change. Those things are part of McD's and Leon's game and are part of what make them so amazing offensively because they can do those things and they work. But the Oilers are not ever going to be a high end defensive team, not unless they drastically change the players. Can they improve and be better next year? 100% they can but their bread and butter as long as they have McD and Leon on the team is offense. So they need to play to that strength.

So Nuge being lousy offensively did impact the team. The Oilers didn't play well in game 1, Nuge was very bad but they lost 6-4, the 6th being an empty netter. So 1 goal would have made a difference. Game 5, they lost by 1 goal. So a goal by Nuge, a guy who scored close to 40 goals and 100 pts, would have made a difference. Nuge is on a good contract and I agree, replacing him at the price point probably wouldn't happen but his job is to produce offense and he didn't do his job.

The Oils' D does not have to be a high-end group, just good enough to complement the scoring power they have up front and not cough up leads like candy to their opponents. They are not good enough, period, as guys like Vinnie and Ceci have shown that they can't compete in the playoffs. We don't need a young Duncan Keith or Kris Letang or Chris Pronger, we need a group that can avoid making mistakes in their own end of the ice. As I have said many times before, having more D-men like Ekholm in the line-up would have been enough to give the Oil a good enough group to contend for a Cup. Ekholm is not a superstar, he just gets the job done and doesn't make catastrophic errors.

I think if they were to swap Ceci for a slight upgrade on him, someone who's more consistent defense wise to play with Nurse. They basically need an Adam Larsson type. Just a solid, right shot defender who's usually in position to allow Nurse to just concentrate on his game and what he does well. In my opinion, with Ceci supposedly hurt, he wasn't able to be in position all the time or get to pucks so that caused Nurse to start to roam all over the ice trying to compensate. As soon as Nurse gets running all over the place, mistakes happen.

Ceci, especially if healthy could be your 3RD, replacing Desharnais, but we should be trying to find a replacement for him.

2RW is also a big hole that needs addressing.

Nuge isn't a problem and I am not making any big decisions on him based on a playoffs that he'd probably like to have done better in - unless there's someone who's really buying high on his 100 point season.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823722 is a reply to message #823717 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 16:58

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 14:51

Ragnarok73 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 11:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 08:38

Yes I am pushing the narrative that the Oilers scoring was part of the problem. People need to get it into their heads that no matter what they do system wise, the Oilers are NEVER going to be a high end defensive team. NEVER. Their 2 best players, the guys that play a ton and will always play a ton no matter what your depth is like are not wired to play like Bergeron or Kopitar or Danault. Can they play better defense and have they learned to play better defense? Yes they have. But I believe what you see is what you are going to get with them. I don't see McD winning a Selke ever. As much as he likes to say it, I don't see Leon winning a Selke ever. Guys who win Selke's don't throw blind backhanded passes or try to go 1 on 3 when your team is doing a line change. Those things are part of McD's and Leon's game and are part of what make them so amazing offensively because they can do those things and they work. But the Oilers are not ever going to be a high end defensive team, not unless they drastically change the players. Can they improve and be better next year? 100% they can but their bread and butter as long as they have McD and Leon on the team is offense. So they need to play to that strength.

So Nuge being lousy offensively did impact the team. The Oilers didn't play well in game 1, Nuge was very bad but they lost 6-4, the 6th being an empty netter. So 1 goal would have made a difference. Game 5, they lost by 1 goal. So a goal by Nuge, a guy who scored close to 40 goals and 100 pts, would have made a difference. Nuge is on a good contract and I agree, replacing him at the price point probably wouldn't happen but his job is to produce offense and he didn't do his job.

The Oils' D does not have to be a high-end group, just good enough to complement the scoring power they have up front and not cough up leads like candy to their opponents. They are not good enough, period, as guys like Vinnie and Ceci have shown that they can't compete in the playoffs. We don't need a young Duncan Keith or Kris Letang or Chris Pronger, we need a group that can avoid making mistakes in their own end of the ice. As I have said many times before, having more D-men like Ekholm in the line-up would have been enough to give the Oil a good enough group to contend for a Cup. Ekholm is not a superstar, he just gets the job done and doesn't make catastrophic errors.

I think if they were to swap Ceci for a slight upgrade on him, someone who's more consistent defense wise to play with Nurse. They basically need an Adam Larsson type. Just a solid, right shot defender who's usually in position to allow Nurse to just concentrate on his game and what he does well. In my opinion, with Ceci supposedly hurt, he wasn't able to be in position all the time or get to pucks so that caused Nurse to start to roam all over the ice trying to compensate. As soon as Nurse gets running all over the place, mistakes happen.

Ceci, especially if healthy could be your 3RD, replacing Desharnais, but we should be trying to find a replacement for him.

2RW is also a big hole that needs addressing.

Nuge isn't a problem and I am not making any big decisions on him based on a playoffs that he'd probably like to have done better in - unless there's someone who's really buying high on his 100 point season.

I don't see how any team can afford a 3.25 mill 3rd pairing dman. Every team needs some super cheap guys to fill out the line up to offset the cost of your stars. I don't see an issue with have Desharnais as your 3rd pairing guy. He was a rookie and should improve next year.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823723 is a reply to message #823722 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 17:07

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 16:58

I don't see how any team can afford a 3.25 mill 3rd pairing dman. Every team needs some super cheap guys to fill out the line up to offset the cost of your stars. I don't see an issue with have Desharnais as your 3rd pairing guy. He was a rookie and should improve next year.

I don't expect any improvement from Desharnais. Yes, he was a rookie, but he was 26 years old. He turns 27 at the end of the month.

His issues are speed and mobility, not ones that more NHL experience is going to improve, and I don't have a lot of faith that a guy that age is going to be able to add much footspeed to his game.

The problem is that he was completely exposed in the playoffs, and you could see both the Kings and Knights targeting his side of the ice repeatedly. When away from home, that meant that he would get stuck facing good opposition - and even O-zone starts aren't enough to protect him, since he's weakest in transition. Good teams don't have a Desharnais in the top-six.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823669 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 21:42

philly boy
Messages: 135
Registered: July 2007
Location: E-Town

No Cups

The story to me is more about what Vegas was able to do rather than what the Oilers didn’t, couldn’t.

Played tremendous defensive hockey, tight systems play, better individual players on the blueline, were good 5 on 5, and got superior coaching.

Oilers need goaltending and D, same old story. Definitely not all doom and gloom. Kudos to Vegas though.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823727 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 19:41

g2k
Messages: 2840
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

Aside from goaltending and decisions in regard to goaltending, I feel the forwards discipline was a huge detriment. Especially from our best players. Still cheating. Those ill advised hero passes at critical moments. Trying to be too fancy in the opponents end. Selfish penalties. Playoff hockey is rarely fancy.

Our stars are just not good enough when they don’t have the puck. They often put the defence and goalie in bad situations. If your leaders won’t pull the rope properly, several others won’t either. They need to change the way the play the game on the other side of the puck or it will be rinse and repeat.

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823736 is a reply to message #823727 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 11:50

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

g2k wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 19:41

Aside from goaltending and decisions in regard to goaltending, I feel the forwards discipline was a huge detriment. Especially from our best players. Still cheating. Those ill advised hero passes at critical moments. Trying to be too fancy in the opponents end. Selfish penalties. Playoff hockey is rarely fancy.

Our stars are just not good enough when they don’t have the puck. They often put the defence and goalie in bad situations. If your leaders won’t pull the rope properly, several others won’t either. They need to change the way the play the game on the other side of the puck or it will be rinse and repeat.

Good point. I do think the stars over the years have gotten a lot better defensively but they still do lack at times.

My hope is there is a realization by them they have to change their game some. The players looked absolutely gutted after this loss, more so than ever because I think they really believed that had a legit shot which the did. I like last year, the Avs were such a jugernaught that while they hoped to win, they knew it probably wouldn't happen. This year Leon almost burst into tears after the game, McD looked pissed of course but sounded distraught. What I liked is how they talked on locker clean out day in their avails. It wasn't the same old "we need to be better, etc, etc". There was accountability. "We screwed up, we let this happen, we caused these mistakes that killed us and no more." So I do hope lots of the guys reflect and make changes. Maybe going 1 on 3 when your line is changing isn't a good idea, dumping it in and going off is. Maybe the 40ft spinning backhand pass Leon loves when there is a defender in the middle isn't a good idea. Stuff like that.

We shall see.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823745 is a reply to message #823736 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 17:12

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

We haven't really played with any structure on the team their entire careers, so I don't hold out much hope of the team changing. Especially under current management and coach. Plus they're both out performing their contracts at the moment. Leon is also up in 2yrs now, we'll need to make room, as he could easily get $15m x 8yrs on the open market...maybe more.

If we get a management and coach clean out, yeah, it could be a whole new ball game, but that's not happening this offseason, so it would be next year, and Leon probably tells us he won't negotiate during the season.

Next year and the one after is our window. We need need a tender, and a top pairing and we need to mortgage 1st's, 2nd's, prospects and use LTIR and the cap rules to pay other teams to eat money to do it.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823750 is a reply to message #823745 ]	Thu, 18 May 2023 22:20

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Rutuu wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 17:12

Next year and the one after is our window. We need need a tender, and a top pairing and we need to mortgage 1st's, 2nd's, prospects and use LTIR and the cap rules to pay other teams to eat money to do it.

I disagree. Next year is our window. If we don't make the Finals at worst, I think Draisaitl doesn't sign an extension and it's the beginning of the end. If the Oilers hold him, then we face losing him for nothing as a UFA. If we trade him, we can't hope to get fair value. If he leaves? Then McDavid is done here too.

So pray for the win next year, because if it doesn't the next Dark Age is upon us.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823754 is a reply to message #823750 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 00:32

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 22:20

Rutuu wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 17:12

Next year and the one after is our window. We need need a tender, and a top pairing and we need to mortgage 1st's, 2nd's, prospects and use LTIR and the cap rules to pay other teams to eat money to do it.

I disagree. Next year is our window. If we don't make the Finals at worst, I think Draisaitl doesn't sign an extension and it's the beginning of the end. If the Oilers hold him, then we face losing him for nothing as a UFA. If we trade him, we can't hope to get fair value. If he leaves? Then McDavid is done here too.

So pray for the win next year, because if it doesn't the next Dark Age is upon us.

I consider trading Drai this summer.

I don’t think the team, as it’s presently constructed, can win the cup. The mix of personalities, skill set, contracts, offense, and defense just isn’t right. I’m not saying I trust Holland, Holland, or Staios to make a Draisaitl trade because I don’t. I just don’t think there’s a path to glory with this team, as it’s presently constructed, next year. Swapping out Yamo or Ceci simply doesn’t move the needle enough. They’d still be exactly who they are. This is where I’d be #bold. That’s not pot stirring. The team simply isn’t a real contender.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823771 is a reply to message #823754 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 09:52

inverno76
Messages: 2340
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 00:32

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 22:20

Rutuu wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 17:12

Next year and the one after is our window. We need need a tender, and a top pairing and we need to mortgage 1st's, 2nd's, prospects and use LTIR and the cap rules to pay other teams to eat money to do it.

I disagree. Next year is our window. If we don't make the Finals at worst, I think Draisaitl doesn't sign an extension and it's the beginning of the end. If the Oilers hold him, then we face losing him for nothing as a UFA. If we trade him, we can't hope to get fair value. If he leaves? Then McDavid is done here too.

So pray for the win next year, because if it doesn't the next Dark Age is upon us.

I consider trading Drai this summer.

I don’t think the team, as it’s presently constructed, can win the cup. The mix of personalities, skill set, contracts, offense, and defense just isn’t right. I’m not saying I trust Holland, Holland, or Staios to make a Draisaitl trade because I don’t. I just don’t think there’s a path to glory with this team, as it’s presently constructed, next year. Swapping out Yamo or Ceci simply doesn’t move the needle enough. They’d still be exactly who they are. This is where I’d be #bold. That’s not pot stirring. The team simply isn’t a real contender.

Took me most of the week to get to reading stuff about that last game, but this trading Draisaitl stuff is over the top. You always consider alternative avenues, but what leads anyone to believe that the end of times is coming?

I am not buying it. I am disappointed in our end result. This team had a clear path to the Cup, but we tripped over our own feet. This team is a juggernaut with some glaring holes, but addressable holes. Bookmark this post. We are not losing 97 or 29 anytime soon, and we have a 6-8 year run of being considered a Cup contender.

I am a ray of effin' sunshine, and everyone needs to bask in my UV.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823776 is a reply to message #823771 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:40

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 09:52

Took me most of the week to get to reading stuff about that last game, but this trading Draisaitl stuff is over the top. You always consider alternative avenues, but what leads anyone to believe that the end of times is coming?

I am not buying it. I am disappointed in our end result. This team had a clear path to the Cup, but we tripped over our own feet. This team is a juggernaut with some glaring holes, but addressable holes. Bookmark this post. We are not losing 97 or 29 anytime soon, and we have a 6-8 year run of being considered a Cup contender.

I am a ray of effin' sunshine, and everyone needs to bask in my UV.

For the record, I wouldn't trade Draisaitl this year. Despite some serious flaws in team construction, and an architect who's basically all but absentee, this team is a couple of breaks from being in the Final Four again this year. Had we got any goaltending at all, we could have beaten Vegas. It still would have been a tough road - Dallas and Carolina are 100+ point teams and Florida was the President's Trophy winners a year earlier, but we were a couple of games from the "anything can happen" spot.

Draisaitl & McDavid are head and shoulders above their peers, and so they can be game changers.

All that said, there's a reason Toronto is doom & gloom this year. In relation to Auston Matthews, they sit where Calgary did last year with Tkachuk. If he isn't interested in signing an extension this summer, then they face the choice of trading him now for all they can get, or potentially losing him for nothing next summer.

I think winning is a bit of an aphrodesiac between team, player and city - so had the Leafs had a deep run this year, then it's a lot easier to convince Matthews that he should stay and that they're on the edge of greatness. The crappy media and the mouth-breathing fans aren't really that bad after all. Who needs privacy at the grocery store or the restaurant? Adulation is fun too, and so is mocking Simmons and Cox.

However, they lost. In his entire career with the Maple Leafs, they've won a single game in the second round. Is that team just doomed? Maybe he SHOULD find out what the market can bear for his services.

Nylander is in the same boat, so the Leafs have some big decisions while trying to balance a cap a year or two out.

And if you have to move on from those guys, then Marner is gone the next year because why would he stick around to be part of a team that isn't on the rise?

We're a year away from that still. The only thing we have to sell McDavid and Draisaitl is that this is a place where they can win, and win together. It's unlikely any team would be able to take both of them over the next couple of years. If they want to lift the Cup together, it has to be here.

But they have to believe that we can win or none of that sales job lands. Instead they just have bad management, inability to bring in competent goaltending, truly awful media, cold dark winters, and West Edmonton Mall. If they don't believe then there's no extension for #29, and with that a major no-win decision has to be made. And if that decision isn't made perfectly, then the following summer there's no McDavid extension either and another even more devastating decision is upon us.

It's not yet end of days here. There's still hope. However, you'd have to be a fool not to be able to see the storm clouds swirling in our future.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823778 is a reply to message #823776 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:46

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:40

inverno76 wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 09:52

Took me most of the week to get to reading stuff about that last game, but this trading Draisaitl stuff is over the top. You always consider alternative avenues, but what leads anyone to believe that the end of times is coming?

I am not buying it. I am disappointed in our end result. This team had a clear path to the Cup, but we tripped over our own feet. This team is a juggernaut with some glaring holes, but addressable holes. Bookmark this post. We are not losing 97 or 29 anytime soon, and we have a 6-8 year run of being considered a Cup contender.

I am a ray of effin' sunshine, and everyone needs to bask in my UV.

For the record, I wouldn't trade Draisaitl this year. Despite some serious flaws in team construction, and an architect who's basically all but absentee, this team is a couple of breaks from being in the Final Four again this year. Had we got any goaltending at all, we could have beaten Vegas. It still would have been a tough road - Dallas and Carolina are 100+ point teams and Florida was the President's Trophy winners a year earlier, but we were a couple of games from the "anything can happen" spot.

Draisaitl & McDavid are head and shoulders above their peers, and so they can be game changers.

All that said, there's a reason Toronto is doom & gloom this year. In relation to Auston Matthews, they sit where Calgary did last year with Tkachuk. If he isn't interested in signing an extension this summer, then they face the choice of trading him now for all they can get, or potentially losing him for nothing next summer.

I think winning is a bit of an aphrodesiac between team, player and city - so had the Leafs had a deep run this year, then it's a lot easier to convince Matthews that he should stay and that they're on the edge of greatness. The crappy media and the mouth-breathing fans aren't really that bad after all. Who needs privacy at the grocery store or the restaurant? Adulation is fun too, and so is mocking Simmons and Cox.

However, they lost. In his entire career with the Maple Leafs, they've won a single game in the second round. Is that team just doomed? Maybe he SHOULD find out what the market can bear for his services.

Nylander is in the same boat, so the Leafs have some big decisions while trying to balance a cap a year or two out.

And if you have to move on from those guys, then Marner is gone the next year because why would he stick around to be part of a team that isn't on the rise?

We're a year away from that still. The only thing we have to sell McDavid and Draisaitl is that this is a place where they can win, and win together. It's unlikely any team would be able to take both of them over the next couple of years. If they want to lift the Cup together, it has to be here.

But they have to believe that we can win or none of that sales job lands. Instead they just have bad management, inability to bring in competent goaltending, truly awful media, cold dark winters, and West Edmonton Mall. If they don't believe then there's no extension for #29, and with that a major no-win decision has to be made. And if that decision isn't made perfectly, then the following summer there's no McDavid extension either and another even more devastating decision is upon us.

It's not yet end of days here. There's still hope. However, you'd have to be a fool not to be able to see the storm clouds swirling in our future.

Toronto is struggling because they are paying 11 mill for a second line center that they didn't need to sign. They already had Matttews and Marner in the fold, 2 superstars. Plus Nylander who's damn good. Signing Tavares because he slept in Leafs jammies was stupid. It was especially stupid when they gave him top dollar. If you want to play for the hometown team, great, then you take less. Not top money to do it.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823796 is a reply to message #823778 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 14:02

Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:46

Toronto is struggling because they are paying 11 mill for a second line center that they didn't need to sign. They already had Matttews and Marner in the fold, 2 superstars. Plus Nylander who's damn good. Signing Tavares because he slept in Leafs jammies was stupid. It was especially stupid when they gave him top dollar. If you want to play for the hometown team, great, then you take less. Not top money to do it.

ENNNNHHHH...wrong.

Tavares has been pretty good for Toronto in his time there. He's made them better and they've consistently been a top team in his time as a Leaf. Is he overpaid? Maybe a little, but considering he was a superstar UFA, it's not an outrageous overpay. He's been a point per game player for his whole time as a Leaf, despite playing behind Matthews on the depth chart. He is not the problem.

The GM isn't the problem either - he's done a nice job finding good players at reasonable rates to flesh out the roster. Hyman before he came here, Bunting. Spezza, O'Reilly. He's consistently been able to add pieces and he's been good at managing the cap even with some high cost players.

I'd argue their failures come from A) not firing Babcock sooner - their chances of signing Matthews & Marner to max terms definitely were impacted by that decision, and B) their failure to get a decent goalie. That part is on Dubas for sure - I don't understand why they'd have thought Matt Murray was a good bounceback bet (although clearly moving on from Campbell was the right decision).

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823801 is a reply to message #823796 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 14:48

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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Adam wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 14:02

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:46

Toronto is struggling because they are paying 11 mill for a second line center that they didn't need to sign. They already had Matttews and Marner in the fold, 2 superstars. Plus Nylander who's damn good. Signing Tavares because he slept in Leafs jammies was stupid. It was especially stupid when they gave him top dollar. If you want to play for the hometown team, great, then you take less. Not top money to do it.

ENNNNHHHH...wrong.

Tavares has been pretty good for Toronto in his time there. He's made them better and they've consistently been a top team in his time as a Leaf. Is he overpaid? Maybe a little, but considering he was a superstar UFA, it's not an outrageous overpay. He's been a point per game player for his whole time as a Leaf, despite playing behind Matthews on the depth chart. He is not the problem.

The GM isn't the problem either - he's done a nice job finding good players at reasonable rates to flesh out the roster. Hyman before he came here, Bunting. Spezza, O'Reilly. He's consistently been able to add pieces and he's been good at managing the cap even with some high cost players.

I'd argue their failures come from A) not firing Babcock sooner - their chances of signing Matthews & Marner to max terms definitely were impacted by that decision, and B) their failure to get a decent goalie. That part is on Dubas for sure - I don't understand why they'd have thought Matt Murray was a good bounceback bet (although clearly moving on from Campbell was the right decision).

WRONG!!!

He's was the 6th highest paid player in the NHL. Is he even in the top 25 of best players in the NHL? No chance. Sure he was a UFA but he came from a team where he never won anything. It shouldn't be this way but in the NHL, teams value cups. They value awards. He had none of those. He won an Olympic medal on a stacked Canadian team where he barely played because he got hurt. He never had a scoring title or a goal title. He was a very good center but he wasn't in the elite group. He dreamed of being a Leaf because they were is childhood team. He wanted to go to the Leafs. So did the Leafs get a deal on him? Hell no. He got max term and max money to go play for the team he loved the most. Good on him but he didn't do any favors to the Leafs and the Leafs did a lousy job of signing him.

It's a bad contract that is hamstringing them. 11 mill is what you should be playing your best player on the team. Not your 3rd or 4th best player. If they were paying what he should be making which in my opinion is 8 mill which for a 2 second line center is pretty damn good money, that could have been used to get a better dman or keep Hyman who was a heart and soul guy for them.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823772 is a reply to message #823754 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 00:32

Adam wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 22:20

Rutuu wrote on Thu, 18 May 2023 17:12

Next year and the one after is our window. We need need a tender, and a top pairing and we need to mortgage 1st's, 2nd's, prospects and use LTIR and the cap rules to pay other teams to eat money to do it.

I disagree. Next year is our window. If we don't make the Finals at worst, I think Draisaitl doesn't sign an extension and it's the beginning of the end. If the Oilers hold him, then we face losing him for nothing as a UFA. If we trade him, we can't hope to get fair value. If he leaves? Then McDavid is done here too.

So pray for the win next year, because if it doesn't the next Dark Age is upon us.

I consider trading Drai this summer.

I don’t think the team, as it’s presently constructed, can win the cup. The mix of personalities, skill set, contracts, offense, and defense just isn’t right. I’m not saying I trust Holland, Holland, or Staios to make a Draisaitl trade because I don’t. I just don’t think there’s a path to glory with this team, as it’s presently constructed, next year. Swapping out Yamo or Ceci simply doesn’t move the needle enough. They’d still be exactly who they are. This is where I’d be #bold. That’s not pot stirring. The team simply isn’t a real contender.

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823774 is a reply to message #823772 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:05

CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

If my story arc on Oilfans is a 20 year long troll job culminating in a one season too soon trade of Draisaitl, I deserve to be in a troll hall of fame.

Sadly RDO, I'm not a troll and will continue having to pay admission to any HOF I walk into. I like challenging ideas and having my ideas challenged. I do not accept the modern notion that nonconformance to an established narrative is an attack on individuals who hold that perspective.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823775 is a reply to message #823774 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:32

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

If my story arc on Oilfans is a 20 year long troll job culminating in a one season too soon trade of Draisaitl, I deserve to be in a troll hall of fame.

Sadly RDO, I'm not a troll and will continue having to pay admission to any HOF I walk into. I like challenging ideas and having my ideas challenged. I do not accept the modern notion that nonconformance to an established narrative is an attack on individuals who hold that perspective.

Well if you aren't a troll then no offense but suggesting you trade Leon is a really stupid idea.

Successful teams need good centers. The Oilers have arguable the 2 best in the world on their team. Leon is a guarantee 50+ goal 110+ pt, in his sleep who is great on faceoffs, can play all special teams, drives the play pus he has size. Whatever package you get, will never replace that. Plus like I said, he's probably 4 mill underpaid. So not only will you lose the trade talent wise, you also lose the value contract he has.

The Oilers wouldn't be looking for picks and prospects, they would want legit, top 6 roster players. So let's say they swap out Leon for some other teams center and a top 6 winger. Whoever those 2 are, they might equal scoring wise what Leon by himself will put up but in all likelihood, they will make more combined than what Leon makes. So you would be paying more for 2 guys that one 1 can give you plus the 2 probably don't do it as well or produce as much. No team that is looking to add Leon is going to gut their top line so you are probably getting their version of Nuge, a underperforming top 6 center and another winger. Makes no sense.

If you want a big shake up, the guy to trade is Nurse. I am a fan of Nurse. I don't think trading him is a good idea but that is a guy who if you traded him, you probably could get a pretty good dman back plus something else. The salary for the 2 pieces would be on par or less and the drop off in play probably wouldn't be as much. As an example. If there was another Ekholm out there available, the drop off in play would be as much as trading away Leon.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823777 is a reply to message #823775 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:46

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:32

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

If my story arc on Oilfans is a 20 year long troll job culminating in a one season too soon trade of Draisaitl, I deserve to be in a troll hall of fame.

Sadly RDO, I'm not a troll and will continue having to pay admission to any HOF I walk into. I like challenging ideas and having my ideas challenged. I do not accept the modern notion that nonconformance to an established narrative is an attack on individuals who hold that perspective.

Well if you aren't a troll then no offense but suggesting you trade Leon is a really stupid idea.

Successful teams need good centers. The Oilers have arguable the 2 best in the world on their team. Leon is a guarantee 50+ goal 110+ pt, in his sleep who is great on faceoffs, can play all special teams, drives the play pus he has size. Whatever package you get, will never replace that. Plus like I said, he's probably 4 mill underpaid. So not only will you lose the trade talent wise, you also lose the value contract he has.

The Oilers wouldn't be looking for picks and prospects, they would want legit, top 6 roster players. So let's say they swap out Leon for some other teams center and a top 6 winger. Whoever those 2 are, they might equal scoring wise what Leon by himself will put up but in all likelihood, they will make more combined than what Leon makes. So you would be paying more for 2 guys that one 1 can give you plus the 2 probably don't do it as well or produce as much. No team that is looking to add Leon is going to gut their top line so you are probably getting their version of Nuge, a underperforming top 6 center and another winger. Makes no sense.

If you want a big shake up, the guy to trade is Nurse. I am a fan of Nurse. I don't think trading him is a good idea but that is a guy who if you traded him, you probably could get a pretty good dman back plus something else. The salary for the 2 pieces would be on par or less and the drop off in play probably wouldn't be as much. As an example. If there was another Ekholm out there available, the drop off in play would be as much as trading away Leon.

If sitting here right now you think the Oilers are a good bet to win the Cup over the next two years, you absolutely do not trade Leon Draisaitl. I do not think that and I haven't since the identifiable core of this team was put together. The reason I posted about considering trading Drai and not Nurse is the Oilers are dealing from a point of excess with offense now. They can give up offense and remain as successful (selling high on Hymen might be an answer). Sending good defense away just leaves you with a bigger hole at defense.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823779 is a reply to message #823775 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 11:54

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:32

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

If my story arc on Oilfans is a 20 year long troll job culminating in a one season too soon trade of Draisaitl, I deserve to be in a troll hall of fame.

Sadly RDO, I'm not a troll and will continue having to pay admission to any HOF I walk into. I like challenging ideas and having my ideas challenged. I do not accept the modern notion that nonconformance to an established narrative is an attack on individuals who hold that perspective.

Well if you aren't a troll then no offense but suggesting you trade Leon is a really stupid idea.

Successful teams need good centers. The Oilers have arguable the 2 best in the world on their team. Leon is a guarantee 50+ goal 110+ pt, in his sleep who is great on faceoffs, can play all special teams, drives the play pus he has size. Whatever package you get, will never replace that. Plus like I said, he's probably 4 mill underpaid. So not only will you lose the trade talent wise, you also lose the value contract he has.

The Oilers wouldn't be looking for picks and prospects, they would want legit, top 6 roster players. So let's say they swap out Leon for some other teams center and a top 6 winger. Whoever those 2 are, they might equal scoring wise what Leon by himself will put up but in all likelihood, they will make more combined than what Leon makes. So you would be paying more for 2 guys that one 1 can give you plus the 2 probably don't do it as well or produce as much. No team that is looking to add Leon is going to gut their top line so you are probably getting their version of Nuge, a underperforming top 6 center and another winger. Makes no sense.

If you want a big shake up, the guy to trade is Nurse. I am a fan of Nurse. I don't think trading him is a good idea but that is a guy who if you traded him, you probably could get a pretty good dman back plus something else. The salary for the 2 pieces would be on par or less and the drop off in play probably wouldn't be as much. As an example. If there was another Ekholm out there available, the drop off in play would be as much as trading away Leon.

Let's play devil's advocate here.

If you're trading Nurse - what are you getting for him? I'd suggest coming off that last playoffs, all you can get is cap relief. Replacing what he brings without spending a huge amount of money is difficult and there's no one in the system who's going to step in to his shoes. It's unlikely that the Oilers could win a Nurse trade and it would go down in a long line of trades where the Oilers take a valuable asset and find a way to reduce the value down to next to nothing (or in a couple of cases actually nothing, and in a couple other cases like Zack Kassian WORSE than nothing). I expect we WILL see the Oilers continue to trade low this summer, potentially paying a team to take Yamamoto off our hands. To do so with Nurse would be ridiculous though - you'd get next to nothing back and you would just have yet ANOTHER hole to fill. So keep him, and just curse Holland every two weeks for signing him to a ridiculous deal. And maybe try to find someone who can help our feeble GM with contract negotiations so that doesn't happen again.

If you're trading Draisaitl with two years left on his deal coming off his best season ever and a playoffs where he was dominant for much of it, the haul you could get back should be enormous. Selling high is not a bad strategy for players - they're depreciating assets and they are unpredictable. An injury or an off-season or even a challenging couple weeks in the playoffs and their value can be shook easily. There is some logic, if you think that A) the Oilers aren't likely to win the Cup next year and B) if we don't win a Cup, Draisaitl isn't going to re-sign, to maximize on the asset while we still can. In a year's time if we're canvassing the market, GMs are going to assume we NEED to move on from him, and they would only be guaranteed one more year with him, so that will temper what they're willing to pay. Trading him right now is probably maxing out value on him - we could potentially bring back another superstar with more term on his contract, as well as picks or prospects.

All that said, I wouldn't like to see the Oilers trade Draisaitl this summer for two reasons:

1) I still have an ember of hope that the team can win. I think 97 & 29 make it all possible if we get any goaltending at all, and if we get a little contributions from the rest of the team.

2) Our management team is a joke and doesn't know how to make a trade where we win. Holland's actually said he doesn't think you CAN win a trade, and that it would be a bad thing in the long run if you did get big wins. With that clown show at the helm, attempting an early Draisaitl trade would be a bleeping train wreck. We just can't risk it. We're better off spending the summer coaxing those old coots like Nicholson and Holland on to ice floes and pushing them off in to the sunset.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823780 is a reply to message #823779 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 12:05

CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:54

If you're trading Draisaitl with two years left on his deal coming off his best season ever and a playoffs where he was dominant for much of it, the haul you could get back should be enormous. Selling high is not a bad strategy for players - they're depreciating assets and they are unpredictable. An injury or an off-season or even a challenging couple weeks in the playoffs and their value can be shook easily. There is some logic, if you think that A) the Oilers aren't likely to win the Cup next year and B) if we don't win a Cup, Draisaitl isn't going to re-sign, to maximize on the asset while we still can. In a year's time if we're canvassing the market, GMs are going to assume we NEED to move on from him, and they would only be guaranteed one more year with him, so that will temper what they're willing to pay. Trading him right now is probably maxing out value on him - we could potentially bring back another superstar with more term on his contract, as well as picks or prospects.

This is why I consider it now. You're selling high but don't have to sell. Any Drai trade would have to be complicate and likely need 2 other teams (Oilers trade the star to team A who trade picks and prospects to team who trades usable players to the Oilers). A trade next off season gets into must trade territory, especially if the Oilers disappoint again next off season, with much tighter timelines. I assume Draisaitl will say he's not negotiating during the season.

Again this all depends on whether or not you believe in the current Oilers ability to win a Cup. The window is 0 or 2 years.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823781 is a reply to message #823779 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 12:26

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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Adam wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:54

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:32

CrusaderPi wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 11:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 10:07

Now I know you aren't a real Oilers fan and just come here to troll.

Trading Drai or McD is a trade you lose 100 out of 100. There is no package out there you can get worth what he does. He only makes 8.5 mill so he's probably 4 mill underpaid. Pretending that another team can give you several roster players that maybe make you better (which I don't believe), those guys are going to me making MORE than what Leon makes.

If my story arc on Oilfans is a 20 year long troll job culminating in a one season too soon trade of Draisaitl, I deserve to be in a troll hall of fame.

Sadly RDO, I'm not a troll and will continue having to pay admission to any HOF I walk into. I like challenging ideas and having my ideas challenged. I do not accept the modern notion that nonconformance to an established narrative is an attack on individuals who hold that perspective.

Well if you aren't a troll then no offense but suggesting you trade Leon is a really stupid idea.

Successful teams need good centers. The Oilers have arguable the 2 best in the world on their team. Leon is a guarantee 50+ goal 110+ pt, in his sleep who is great on faceoffs, can play all special teams, drives the play pus he has size. Whatever package you get, will never replace that. Plus like I said, he's probably 4 mill underpaid. So not only will you lose the trade talent wise, you also lose the value contract he has.

The Oilers wouldn't be looking for picks and prospects, they would want legit, top 6 roster players. So let's say they swap out Leon for some other teams center and a top 6 winger. Whoever those 2 are, they might equal scoring wise what Leon by himself will put up but in all likelihood, they will make more combined than what Leon makes. So you would be paying more for 2 guys that one 1 can give you plus the 2 probably don't do it as well or produce as much. No team that is looking to add Leon is going to gut their top line so you are probably getting their version of Nuge, a underperforming top 6 center and another winger. Makes no sense.

If you want a big shake up, the guy to trade is Nurse. I am a fan of Nurse. I don't think trading him is a good idea but that is a guy who if you traded him, you probably could get a pretty good dman back plus something else. The salary for the 2 pieces would be on par or less and the drop off in play probably wouldn't be as much. As an example. If there was another Ekholm out there available, the drop off in play would be as much as trading away Leon.

Let's play devil's advocate here.

If you're trading Nurse - what are you getting for him? I'd suggest coming off that last playoffs, all you can get is cap relief. Replacing what he brings without spending a huge amount of money is difficult and there's no one in the system who's going to step in to his shoes. It's unlikely that the Oilers could win a Nurse trade and it would go down in a long line of trades where the Oilers take a valuable asset and find a way to reduce the value down to next to nothing (or in a couple of cases actually nothing, and in a couple other cases like Zack Kassian WORSE than nothing). I expect we WILL see the Oilers continue to trade low this summer, potentially paying a team to take Yamamoto off our hands. To do so with Nurse would be ridiculous though - you'd get next to nothing back and you would just have yet ANOTHER hole to fill. So keep him, and just curse Holland every two weeks for signing him to a ridiculous deal. And maybe try to find someone who can help our feeble GM with contract negotiations so that doesn't happen again.

If you're trading Draisaitl with two years left on his deal coming off his best season ever and a playoffs where he was dominant for much of it, the haul you could get back should be enormous. Selling high is not a bad strategy for players - they're depreciating assets and they are unpredictable. An injury or an off-season or even a challenging couple weeks in the playoffs and their value can be shook easily. There is some logic, if you think that A) the Oilers aren't likely to win the Cup next year and B) if we don't win a Cup, Draisaitl isn't going to re-sign, to maximize on the asset while we still can. In a year's time if we're canvassing the market, GMs are going to assume we NEED to move on from him, and they would only be guaranteed one more year with him, so that will temper what they're willing to pay. Trading him right now is probably maxing out value on him - we could potentially bring back another superstar with more term on his contract, as well as picks or prospects.

All that said, I wouldn't like to see the Oilers trade Draisaitl this summer for two reasons:

1) I still have an ember of hope that the team can win. I think 97 & 29 make it all possible if we get any goaltending at all, and if we get a little contributions from the rest of the team.

2) Our management team is a joke and doesn't know how to make a trade where we win. Holland's actually said he doesn't think you CAN win a trade, and that it would be a bad thing in the long run if you did get big wins. With that clown show at the helm, attempting an early Draisaitl trade would be a bleeping train wreck. We just can't risk it. We're better off spending the summer coaxing those old coots like Nicholson and Holland on to ice floes and pushing them off in to the sunset.

Serious question. Can you ever have a discussion about anything Oilers related without going on a rant about the management being bad?

I am not here to get into it with you again. I get it, you don't like the management and never will. Whoever takes over from Hollands next, season, you probably would like him either. I do like this kind of stuff, the hypothetical trade and signing stuff but what is the point of engaging in a discussion when it's just going to be another management sucks rant?

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823804 is a reply to message #823781 ]	Fri, 19 May 2023 15:10

Adam
Messages: 7174
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 19 May 2023 12:26

Serious question. Can you ever have a discussion about anything Oilers related without going on a rant about the management being bad?

I am not here to get into it with you again. I get it, you don't like the management and never will. Whoever takes over from Hollands next, season, you probably would like him either. I do like this kind of stuff, the hypothetical trade and signing stuff but what is the point of engaging in a discussion when it's just going to be another management sucks rant?

This is a pretty argumentative first position if you don't want to get in to it.

It's worth noting that the reason the Oilers have dark days approaching and the possibility of Draisaitl and McDavid ending the Edmonton era of their careers without any championships to show for their time here is because the management has been so thoroughly incompetent.

I don't even really think that is a controversial position. Draisaitl was drafted by MacTavish, who floundered around as a GM. He made a lot of moves, but rarely seemed able to point the team in the right direction. He fired a coach by Zoom, he hired Eakins for a role he didn't even interview him for, he managed to devalue three of his key players before he'd even had his team play a single game with him as general manager. He put Draisaitl in the league before he was ready, and allowed him to be healthy scratched a dozen or so times before finally sending him back to junior, while bragging that he had twisted the arm of his junior team to send him to a destination of MacT's choosing - how he figured that intelligence was likely to help the Oilers, I'll never understand.

After destroying the value of his Horcoff, Hemsky and Dubnyk in his first year, he promptly set out to destroy his entire right side defence too with the Petry debacle, and then pushing forward Schultz in to a role he wasn't suited for leading to his value erosion and eventual exit. He eventually had to fire Eakins after one and a half incredibly bad seasons, but felt he couldn't just hire a new coach - rather he had to take the unprecedented step of co-coaching 6 games with Nelson.

His signings were generally terrible. He made a lot of trades, but really only two of them look any good - Paajarvi for Perron and Perron for the draft pick that became Matthew Barzal...

Oh, that leads us to McDavid's first GM - Panicky Pete Chiarelli. Chia came in with a plan. He hired a veteran coach, he drafted McDavid first overall as planned, he traded for a goalie in Talbot and then he tried to trade for Dougie Hamilton to be the cornerstone of the Edmonton defence. It was a great plan, other than the Bruins not wanting to give him Hamilton. That's fine - any good plan has some contingencies, right? Well, it's fine so long as they don't give two high draft picks away for a minor league defenceman (who fellow incompetent Tambellini and scouts considered taking #1 overall in 2012). Even with that staggering gaffe, the first season shows lots of promise. McDavid is clearly the real deal. Hall clicks immediately with Draisaitl and they put up really solid numbers. Health is the issue as McDavid, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, Purcell, Pouliot, Klefbom and Yakupov all miss substantial time due to injuries.

There's clearly some need to bolster the defence still, since it turned out that Reinhart wasn't an adequate replacement for Hamilton after all. Sure would have been nice to have a right shot D like Petry, or even Justin Schultz around...Nikitin and Gryba aren't quite the replacements one might have thought they'd be. No problem - the team has a high draft pick and lots of prospects. We should be able to acquire a decent defenceman for that right - I mean, after all, look at the price Calgary had to pay for Hamilton only a year earlier. Or, we could trade our leading scorer away for a defensive defenceman, sign a 29-year old power forward primed for decline, sign the worst goalie in the league as our back-up and then cross our fingers that it all works out!

Chiarelli's tenure is marked by terrible trade after terrible trade. They KNEW that the trades would be unpopular. They knew that the stats didn't support them. Rather than not doing trades that everyone would know were bad, they decided instead to try to coax media guys to cover for them and insist that the sky really is green.

Which brings us to Holland. Hugely over-rated after a career that saw him piggyback on teams with massive budgets to Stanley Cup wins over 20 years ago (and one late one in 2008 on the backs of a couple Hall of Fame players), Holland superceded a hiring process that saw our forensic auditor-in-chief Nicholson declare the need for an actual hiring process complete with real interviews of actual identified candidates. He went so far as to embarrass the entire franchise by begging other GMs to tell him what they think he should do at the league meetings. Fortunately those bought-and-paid stooge media guys were there to proclaim this a master strategy. Apparently, one of those GMs told him he should just hire Holland who was in the process of being pushed out in Detroit, where he'd taken the once proud team slowly in to the gutter. A quick look at his draft picks will show you he'd done a piss poor job there for over a decade. A look at his trade record shows about as well, other than one where he got three picks for an over-rated UFA to be. Of course, if you suck at drafting, having a bunch of extra picks isn't quite the benefit it might otherwise be.

Once here, he spent the first three years signing bad deals and making sure that our goaltending consistently sucked, while constantly trying to lower expectations of results. When he did make trades, he tended to get fleeced and repeatedly has shown that he doesn't understand cap mechanics, the loopholes other teams access, or about relative strength in bargaining. He does like fondly reminiscing on his days in Detroit, and telling people his philosophy and plans in great detail...and proving to them all that he was serious by just never doing anything surprising at all. He meekly accepts it when McDavid and Draisaitl are constantly mugged, never risking a fine by making a peep. He meekly accepts it when the league decides that the only thing that needs pro-rating in the Covid-shortened season is James Neal's results, so he's forced to give up an extra draft pick to Calgary, which they select at almost the same time he's buying out the same player. When the league goes back on their own rules to invalidate a cap benefit the Oilers would receive because of the godsent retirement of Duncan Keith - a benefit other teams have previously used when players like Luongo retired - once again it's meek acceptance. I mean, the guy doesn't even loudly condemn racists targeting one of his players after our first round loss to Winnipeg a couple years ago, instead just trying to say he doesn't know what it's about because he doesn't have social media.

He's decided now that he doesn't really like rentals - which ties his hands at the trade deadline because all the players you can get for relative bargains at that point are the guys who's contracts are expiring. Everyone else understands that, but it means that in 2021-22, he was only willing to shop the bottom of the market, getting Kulak and Brassard. He did explain prior to the trade deadline that he wasn't sure if we were in our "window" yet...so it must have been a surprise to him to see us go all the way to the semi-finals. Maybe if we'd had a little more support from management and he'd gotten a better goalie or done some more at the deadline we'd have been in better shape...I'm sure he'll do better next year right?

Nope - old dog, new tricks and all. We still have mediocre goaltending and while he makes his best move as Oilers GM in acquiring Ekholm, he packs it in early and stops even trying to improve the team. Turns out it still has plenty of holes and we're on the outside looking in again.

Who thinks he's going to fix the goaltending this summer? Anyone believe he's going to push all-in next year at the trade deadline? Who has confidence he's going to make trades and signings that meaningfully improve the team? Anyone believe he's got the savvy to manage the cap and look at using any loopholes?

Why do I talk about management when talking about what ails the Oilers? It's because management - consistent, disastrous management - is what's sunk the Oilers since Glen Sather left, other than one brilliant year in 2006 from Kevin Lowe. We're out of the playoffs today because our GM failed to recognize and address the flaws in his roster. Management is the problem - thus if we're doing any debrief, they probably SHOULD come up.

Or I suppose we could just claim that it's all because Nuge didn't get a couple more ES points...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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