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Oilers » Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6)

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823594 is a reply to message #823592 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 08:55

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

oilfan94 wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:38

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:43

Well, Vegas and Seattle should at least kill the stupid trope that the only way to be successful is to build through the draft…

Hey, an expansion draft is still a draft.

There were people here said the Oilers would have been better off moving and starting fresh as an expansion team a decade ago.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823598 is a reply to message #823594 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 09:37

oilfan94
Messages: 408
Registered: June 2006
Location: USA

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 10:55

oilfan94 wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:38

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:43

Well, Vegas and Seattle should at least kill the stupid trope that the only way to be successful is to build through the draft…

Hey, an expansion draft is still a draft.

There were people here said the Oilers would have been better off moving and starting fresh as an expansion team a decade ago.

I think that holds true for a lot of teams. Expansion teams have the ability to start their salary cap from scratch, a luxury never afforded to any other team. Plus the expansion draft rules give a team so much depth on their roster, which is the biggest key to winning. However, Seattle and Vegas also have the advantage of attracting more free agents, whereas an expansion team in Edmonton in say 2013 or 2014 likely would not have.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823634 is a reply to message #823598 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 19:24

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

oilfan94 wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 09:37

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 10:55

oilfan94 wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:38

Adam wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 08:43

Well, Vegas and Seattle should at least kill the stupid trope that the only way to be successful is to build through the draft…

Hey, an expansion draft is still a draft.

There were people here said the Oilers would have been better off moving and starting fresh as an expansion team a decade ago.

Both of those teams have been savvy about their free agent signings though - they haven't made a lot of mistakes, and they've both signed some guys who were undervalued and got great mileage from them. A guy like Jonathan Marchessault was clearly a solid player before he got to Las Vegas, but some of those old hockey guy ideas that he wasn't ever going to be big enough made it so they actually pushed Vegas towards taking him.

Also - while Vegas has had some decent draft picks, they've decided that they are in a window to win and have sold high on some of those guys in order to keep the team very competitive. At the point when it seems they have a great team, if someone else who can make it better becomes available, they're in on that deal. They may win a Cup this year because of it.

I think it stands in pretty stark contrast to the way the Oilers have been managed. Not only are they clearly more willing to play loose around the salary cap rules in a way the Oilers aren't, but they have gone and acquired Pacioretty, Stone, and Pietrangelo and Eichel and kept building to keep themselves in the hunt. If someone doesn't fit, they haven't been sentimental about it. They just move on.

I mean, here's their top two rounds for their entire time in the NHL:

2017
Cody Glass - 6th overall - traded to Nashville for Nolan Patrick (currently injured for the season)
Nick Suzuki - 13th overall - traded to Montreal for Max Pacioretty
Erik Brannstrom - 15th overall - traded to Ottawa for Mark Stone
Nicholas Hague - 34th overall - Currently with the team 223 games in to NHL career
Jake Leschyshyn - 62nd overall - Lost on waivers

2018
1st round pick - traded for Tomas Tatar
Ivan Morozov - 61st overall - still in system in the AHL

2019
Peyton Krebs - 17th overall - traded in Eichel deal
2nd round pick - traded for Tatar
Second 2nd round pick traded with Tatar for Pacioretty

2020
Brendan Brisson - 29th overall
2nd round pick traded - for Stone with Brannstrom
Second 2nd round pick traded for Alec Martinez
3rd 2nd round pick traded for Robyn Lehner

2021
1st round pick traded for Alec Martinez
Zachary Dean - 30th overall - Traded in Feb for Ivan Barbashev
Daniil Chayka - 38th overall - In the system with AHL team
2nd round pick traded in a weird series of trades for Janmark and Nick Desimone (who was dealt before ever playing a game for Vegas to NYR for Brett Howden).

2022
1st round pick traded for Jack Eichel (with Krebs and Alex Tuch)
Matyas Sapovaliv - 48th overall - in the system, played in CHL this year

Not only did they pick up a whole slew of extra picks at the expansion draft, but as people have become redundant, they've got picks back. Colin Miller got them a 2nd and a 5th, Nikita Gusev for a 2nd and a 3rd. They even got a third round pick for Ryan Reaves...which is amazing considering what we had to give up to GET RID OF Zack Kassian.

They've already dealt away their 2nd, 4th & 5th rounders for this summer, and you know what? I doubt they are losing any sleep over it. It won't shock me if the guy they pick this year never sees a game in a Knights uniform either. It stands in stark contrast to the Oilers where they get all excited for potential with draft picks but generally don't look to move anyone until they've proven that they're below the lofty expectations that had been built up around them. We're so worried about losing a trade on a prospect that we'd rather slam them in the media 50 times before dealing them and getting nothing than rolling the dice and trading while their value is high for someone who can help right now.

Honestly, the Oilers have had McDavid longer than the Knights have been in the league. This is the THIRD time that the Knights have been in the semi-finals (with one trip so far to the finals and an excellent chance at them again this year). McDavid's been there once and had to have a record-setting points pace in order to get there.

We should have been taking a similar approach and yet...

2018
Evan Bouchard - on the roster (and very good)
Ryan McLeod - on the roster in 3rd line role
2019
Philip Broberg - on the roster as 7th dman
Raphael Lavoie - in the system (AHL)
2020
Dylan Holloway - in the system (AHL with cup of coffee in NHL)
2nd traded to Det for Athanasiou
2021
Xavier Bourgault - in the system (AHL)
2nd traded to Det for Athanasiou
2022
Reid Schaefer - traded for Matthias Ekholm (along with 2023 1st rd pick)
1st rd pick traded to get rid of Kassian (for the later pick that became Schaefer)
2nd traded to Mtl for Kulak

It's not quite as impressive...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823593 is a reply to message #823591 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 08:49

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I have to say I am pretty shocked they lost. I expected them to win this series, especially last night. My keys to why they lost.

- Secondary scoring dried up. Key guys I will single out, Nuge, Yamo, McLeod.
Nuge 1 goal 11 pts, 9 of them on the PP. 100 pt guy, scored almost 40 goals. 1 goal is pathetic. Sorry, I know people like Nuge but not good enough. Longest serving Oiler, I expect more from a guy that says he wants to win. Had 24 shots in 12 games. Not good enough. This was 2016 Nuge all over again.

Yamo 1 goal, 4 pts. Absolutely pathetic. For a guy that gets that much top 6 time, brutal. He had 12 shots in 12 games. What are you doing out there.

McLeod 0 goals, 5 assists. 9 shots. He's supposed to be the teams 3rd line center. I wouldn't be rushing to do that or be throwing big money at him to resign. I would have him back but until he proves it otherwise, he's a 4th line center and that's a 1 mill player. See Ryan.

Other guys. I thought Hyman wasn't as impactful as normal but I think he was battling things and was snake bitten a bit. He had 46 shots in 12 games so he was trying. Kane, definitely wasn't close to himself. Very unlucky not to have more. Had 38 shots in 12 games but needed to find a few more.

Defense.
I don't think Nurse was necessarily bad but he wasn't good. Just OK. I do think his partner comprised him.
Ceci was clearly hurt with something. He wasn't good at all and wasn't able to get to pucks.
Ekholm & Bouchard are decent.
Kulak was good.
Desharnais had a rough game 1 but overall was OK.

Their defensively coverage at times still was a problem.

Goaltending wasn't good and a big, big factor why they lost.
I think Skinner has a future but he wasn't good in the playoffs. .883 and 3.68Ga says it all. You won't win a ton in the playoffs with that. I don't think he was bad but he wasn't good. He wasn't able to lock it down. Hill last night, won the Knights that game. Skinner didn't win a single game for the Oilers in the whole playoffs. Campbell won the Oilers a game in the playoffs in the big comeback against the Kings. Last night the Oilers needed a very good start from their goalie and he wasn't. He had a few tough bounces go against him but his rebound control was awful all playoffs. 1st goal was a bad play of the puck by Skinner, then an unlucky bounce to a wide open guy that one times it. But Skinner throws the puck into a scrum. Second goal, unlucky off the skate. 3rd goal was a brutal rebound. Tough shot but still, other guys take it high and don't drop it in the crease. 4th goal. Wide open shot from a spot that is a decent scoring spot but not 5 alarm and he gets flat out beat. In my opinion, in a game your team needs, that has to be stopped.

Coaching. I think Woody placed way too much faith in Skinner and should have tried Campbell. Every time Campbell came in, granted in relief, he was fantastic.

Not to complain but reffing played a massive factor in the series. Never should have had the instigator to Nurse. Pietrangelo should have been suspended for more. The cherry on top. 1 PP for the Oilers. Ekholm in the last 5 mins gets highsticked in the face. Cut under the eye. Automatic 4 mins. I get refs want them to play but that is dangerous! You don't want to call the ticky tack stuff or trips, of slashes because you want them to battle. Fine. A guy took a stick to the face that cut him a few inches from the eye and nothing. That's unacceptable.

I am pretty disappointed. I will save what I think they need to do for next years team in the thread I know will be coming soon.

[Updated on: Mon, 15 May 2023 08:53]

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823600 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 10:14

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Most importantly, congratulations to OC for coming from behind and winning the score prediction challenge on the last day of the Oilers season. Had that empty netter not been scored last night MJ would have won.

god

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823629 is a reply to message #823600 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 16:48

welcometotheOC
Messages: 646
Registered: April 2010
Location: Also, sadly, Cowtown

No Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 10:14

mmm, doesn’t feel good somehow… sorry mj, I couldn’t even watch the last 4 games as I am on vacation in Europe and luckily picked the opposite score to win backing in. Half expected team NHL to screw over the Oilers and they did. Sure the Oilers are partly to blame but things like those NHL suspension shenanigans can turn a series on its head and that is exactly what happened. Without that the Oil win in 6.

This feels a lot like 2017. I love the Oilers but I despise the NHL.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823610 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 13:02

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

This is a bummer dude

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwA185vXwAANBhC?format=jpg&name=small

Skinner and Campbell need to do whatever they can to improve this summer. Skinner to some degree was a victim of scouting in the end I think, lots of shots in low, lots of guys able to move pucks around him right in front because he isn't active at all with his stick. Had some very low points in his body language that Woody didn't seem to care about, but lead to lots of easy goals against especially when Skinner started to give up on 2nd efforts and had slow lateral movement. Campbell, just a crap show, full equipment change mid-season which I don't think I've heard of before. Looked good at the end, but who the heck knows.

[Updated on: Mon, 15 May 2023 13:04]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823641 is a reply to message #823610 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 22:53

DeZoE
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2007

No Cups

Campbell NEEDED to start game 6 IMO. It was the perfect time for redemption. Skinner was looking fragile and inexperienced and the dude would have been fine down the line if they gave Soupy the start. Now I'm worried Skinner is destroyed and Campbell, who had shown he could handle the pressure from the limited time he had to play, will be thrown away and wasted. That was the universe hinting that Woodcroft should be playing Campbell to give the man a chance at redemption. I love Woodcroft but that decision was Bush league. He needs to be able to read the signs a bit better. The only solace is knowing that in another parallel universe Soupy is preparing for game 7 on tomorrow night.

I'm not wearing pants...

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823643 is a reply to message #823641 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 23:42

nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

DeZoE wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 21:53

Woodcroft should have had a pre established schedule of S S C S S C S.

All thru the season Skinner would have a good run and then start falling off. Which is exactly what happened in the playoffs.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823628 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 16:39

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

After a night to sleep on it...was last year the peak when we went to the WCF? We won 8 playoff games last year and this year we only won 7.

The reason I'm asking myself the questions is, you never really know when you're at the end of the up slope or the beginning of the down slope. This year everything kind of went our way even with a rookie goaltender in net. Our top forwards out performed their contracts, outside of Nurse, and we got some surprises from ELCs (Skinner and Bouchard). The PP was also historic.

We were even able to bury bad money in Smith and Keith. I mean people complain about Vegas circumventing the rules, but our management got the go ahead to put an extra $8m on the roster. We had a $100m team out there against Vegas's $110m team.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823632 is a reply to message #823628 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 17:48

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Rutuu wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 16:39

Yeah, it's over. We should get ahead of things and find our equivalent to Kadri and Huberdeau and open our cup window again.

Keith and Smith were playing for us in the playoffs? How did I miss that?

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823636 is a reply to message #823632 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 20:44

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

They didn't play...but their cap space was out there for us.

If we could get a Huberdeau or Kadri that'd be pretty great for our depth, but both are on bad contracts now. We've gotta put picks packages together to fill out the roster with cheap young players that have upside, or wait for some PTOs that want to get their numbers up.

Is it bad that I was playing with the numbers on a Nurse buyout?
https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/darnell-nurse

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823637 is a reply to message #823636 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 21:08

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Rutuu wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 20:44

Was joking about Keith and Smith. The complaint with Vegas is how they are very literally icing a lineup way over the cap and stone could have been playing long before the season ended. Blatant, but not against current rules. Nothing would have stopped us from pulling the same kind of scam with Kane, but we are not very creative around here. No one would argue with saying someone that got their wrist sliced open needed extra time. Who knows Kane with extra rest could have been a machine in the playoffs. Oh well.

Nurse is one of the boys, don't think he will ever be moved. It's ride or die with McDavid Drai and nurse.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823639 is a reply to message #823637 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 21:27

Rutuu
Messages: 144
Registered: March 2011
Location: Brisbane

No Cups

The way the LTIR rules are structured, its really a soft cap league now. The Oilers did take advantage of this fact and we iced the 3rd most expensive line up, and second most expensive in the playoffs. You're right though, we should have gone further with Kane being rested till the end of the year so we could add another NHL level dman that would've made a difference or depth scoring to draw some attention away from the top two lines.

Eager to see what Holland can get done in the next few weeks before he shuts his phone off and heads to the lake.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823633 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Mon, 15 May 2023 18:32

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

FYI.. Stauffer reports Kane had a broken finger. I'm sure he had more.. those ribs couldn't be completely healed.

Also said Ceci was fighting a groin injury all season..

Interested to hear about any injury regarding Hyman, RNH, Kostin, Janmark

Oilers need to add more speed through out the line up in order to compete with the top teams.. Seattle and Florida are both doing it with great speed throughout the line up... speed kills.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823646 is a reply to message #823633 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 09:24

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 18:32

For me, Nuge better have a significant injury because like I have said it many times, he had an awful playoff and in my opinion was a key factor in why they lost. He is the key to their next layer of scoring and and I am struggling to think of a game where he stood out. When 5 on 5 scoring is so critical in the playoffs and is the reason the Oilers lost to Vegas, getting a bunch of secondary PP assists doesn't in my opinion mean he was a big time contributor to scoring.

I watched every game on TV and was at 2 live. I never once saw Nuge go down and was slow to get up. Never saw him have to leave the bench for time, never saw the trainer doing something with him on the bench or talking to him. When he was on the ice, I never saw him laboring to get around, never flexing something or wincing. What I saw was a guy who didn't go to the same areas to score like he did in the regular season.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823654 is a reply to message #823633 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 12:03

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 18:32

Unless a groin injury makes a D constantly wander out of position and just stand there, I still try to move on from Ceci this summer. You cannot have 2 D on the same pair that constantly go way out of position. Nurse needs a much better stay home D partner that can make simple passes for him. Ceci played like a wannabe far crappier Nurse this season.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823657 is a reply to message #823654 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 12:39

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 11:03

Skookum Jim wrote on Mon, 15 May 2023 18:32

You can move on from Ceci but they'd need to find a better replacement for about the same cap ($3.25M) .. not sure any are available.. maybe Mayfield, Gudas.. both UFA .. or a trade?
RHD is not very deep in the organization.. you'd be left with Desharnais and Bouchard.. and Kemp in Bako (not NHL ready, if ever)

Hard to tell where all the fault lay with that pair's defensive failures, Nurse is at least half the problem.. and he isn't going anywhere with that cap hit.. the team (and he) needs to get him playing better.. I'm starting to feel the coaching staff are unable to get through to him, his defensive zone awareness hasn't got better.. either the coaches aren't delivering the message, he's tuned it out, or he just doesn't have the ability to execute it.. the last possibility is the most worrisome. Nurse is supposed to be the team's top defensive defenseman.. he's currently not it.. and we have the offensive defenceman (Bouchard) .. team won't get better unless Nurse finds a way to execute better defensively.. right now he's too undependable. Maybe watch some Ekholm tape.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 12:40]

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823650 is a reply to message #823557 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 10:38

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

I waited a bit to look at this thread. Too depressing.

My 2 cents:

- Campbell is notorious for being streaky. Just when it looks like he's ready to be hot, they sit him for a guy that is struggling. Woodcroft's faith in Skinner was misplaced. Sometimes you just need to play the guy that looks better. The regular season means nothing once the playoffs start.

- The depth on RHD needs to be better for a long playoff run. Ceci was playing hurt and Vinnie just aint that good. Nurse makes too much, but a left-hand side of Ekholm, Nurse, Kulak, Broberg is Championship quality. Need the same thing on the right side.

- I think the forwards are OK, but were struggling to play through injuries. It would be helpful to have better depth. The coach also needs to be willing to use that depth. Woodcroft seemed too set on who he had. Holloway might have been able to add some energy.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823651 is a reply to message #823650 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 11:16

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

Steve wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 11:38

^Yep...despite all the mainstream media hysteria about the Oilers at 5v5, etc....I'm still refusing to believe Vegas was THAT MUCH BETTER than the Oilers at 5v5. Untimely injuries to Kane/Hyman/McDavid didn't help any...but it was really moreso about stubborn coaching...esp when Woodcroft at various points in the season would insert bottom 6 guys into the top 6 & vice versa with success.

Maybe finishing off LA in 4-5 games instead of needing 6 strenuous ones could've helped matters but oh well...we'll never know

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 11:24]

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823658 is a reply to message #823651 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 15:20

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Where the hell was Nuge in the year end interviews? I want to know why he was so lousy in these playoffs. Was he hurt or just not show up?

Am I being super critical of Nuge? Absolutely I am. But he's the guy who's performance these playoffs bothered me the most. WHy?
- He's been an Oiler for 12 yrs now.
- For 12 yrs, he's been one of their key guys, he's supposedly one of their leaders. Guys like McD and Leon mention him by name as critical to the teams success.
- For 12 yrs, he was the guy who every year they would talk to Nuge after they were done and he would talk about his disappointment, how he wants to win, how he's tired of losing, how the team needs to improve, how he needs to improve.
- Supposedly after last years defeat to the AVs, it light a fire under Nuge, he rededicated himself and he had his best season ever by a mile.
- Nuge has a massive following among the fan base. In my opinion, many think he is almost touchable and can do no wrong. Many wanted him to retire as an Oiler so he got his retirement deal.
- In my opinion, after McD and Leon, he is the 3rd guy offensively and key to the Oilers secondary scoring behind the big 2.
- Unless you are an elite player, generally the playoffs favor vets due to their experience. He's 30, he should be in his prime playoff years where he still has enough game left in his body combined with experience to excel and be a difference maker in the playoffs.

I know what Nuge is. He's not a line driver, never really has been and never will be. He is a very good, complimentary player but the Oilers don't need him to drive a line. They have 2 of probably the very best line drivers in the NHL. All they needed Nuge to do was do what he did all year. Be that elite complimentary guy. Get your touches, set up Leon or McD and get into spots and bury it. Just like you did all year. I fully expected it to be McD, Leon and Nuge as 1, 2, 3 in scoring in the NHL as I expected the Oilers to go a long way. I never saw him taking 10 games to score his first goal. I never saw him being basically invisible for most of the playoffs. So I want to know why because I firmly believe that if Nuge wasn't as bad as he was, even with the goaltending, the Oilers would have won and be in the West Finals right now.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823659 is a reply to message #823658 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

The Nuge was lousy narrative reminds me a lot of the Eberle sucks in the playoffs story from 2017. He, like the rest of the team, wasn't great at 5 on 5 against Vegas, but he didn't get crushed any worse than the more important players. He also scored 11 points in 12 games, which I don't think is lousy. Yes, 9 of them were on the playoffs, but since when is playoff scoring a bad thing?

I'm trying to think how many more EV points Nuge would have need to not be considered lousy (I landed on 4) and I don't think that changes the series.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823661 is a reply to message #823659 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 16:07

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

Naw this is different. Nuge was exactly what Nuge is in these playoffs. Waiting to be 3rd wheel on a line with two other guys driving it. Consistently through his entire career that is the only situation he has produced 5v5. Didn't work out because Kane and Hyman were busted and we need Nuge at C when McDrai are together.

Eberle in 2017 got lots of chances but couldn't cash them in. Nuge doesn't get chances without 2 good linemates and he doesn't generate them for others either 5v5. Consistently for years now that's been the case. The Nuge is what he is.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:08]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823663 is a reply to message #823661 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 17:45

kungpaobenji27
Messages: 340
Registered: August 2003
Location: Irving, Texas

No Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:07

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

At least Nuge isn't getting paid 11 mil like John Tavares...

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823664 is a reply to message #823663 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 17:58

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:45

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:07

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

At least Nuge isn't getting paid 11 mil like John Tavares...

lol, truth.

Nuge is probably making what he should. He's still a versatile player. You won't get many all situation veteran C's for much cheaper. And I still love winger Nuge when he's using his shot. Just crap luck that we couldn't create a line that suited his strengths in these playoffs.
We have the players to do it, but injuries messed it all up. Maybe next year.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823665 is a reply to message #823664 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 18:57

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:58

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:45

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:07

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

At least Nuge isn't getting paid 11 mil like John Tavares...

The only complaint I have about RNH in the playoffs is he was too risk averse and didn't shoot enough 5v5 or on the PP. That's it.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823670 is a reply to message #823665 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 22:00

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 18:57

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:58

kungpaobenji27 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:45

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 17:07

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:51

At least Nuge isn't getting paid 11 mil like John Tavares...

The only complaint I have about RNH in the playoffs is he was too risk averse and didn't shoot enough 5v5 or on the PP. That's it.

I mean, he's almost never is in a position to shoot 5v5 unless he is able to float into open ice and someone sets him up. And he rarely holds onto a puck 5v5 for more than a fraction of a second to help generate a chance for someone else. That's the Nuge though, consistently the same for years.

I have no complaints for him on the PP. He's a last resort shooter, they have a plan and it has worked almost the entire season. The whole unit kinda choked on that 5 min PP that was a massive opportunity to pull one out, but what can ya do. Hopefully they handle pressure like that better next year.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:02]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823660 is a reply to message #823658 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 15:59

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:20

You are pushing a narrative that lack of scoring is a big reason why the Oil are done for the season. No. It's lack of effective defensive play that did the Oil in. We saw foreshadowing of this in the first round series vs the Kings when the Oil blew leads in games 1 and 3 to lose in OT. In the series vs the Knights, the Oil scored first in all games except for the last but couldn't hold the leads they got in games 1, 3, and 5.

If they had more solid blueliners in their line-up, they should have beaten the Kings and Knights in 5 games or less each before going to the West final. Instead, they made too many games a struggle because they couldn't defend their zone consistently enough. Defence wins championships, and the Oil don't have enough of it in their line-up. If Holland can't fix it, then next year could very well be more of the same.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823662 is a reply to message #823660 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 16:30

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:20

The offense was a problem too. Our inability to push offensively with 2 lines killed us against Vegas. Especially since Woodcroft didn't seem that interested in matching lines and trying to get our top guys again from the opponents top guys. Most recently our pitiful Nuge-Drai-Yams line (nice one Woodcroft, no one couldn't have predicted how that would go) got scored on twice. Instead of driving offense that line was stuck in our zone making weak plays, but also still managed to not help the D out defensively.

Who got wrecked the most among D in this series 5v5:

Ceci: 1 GF, 8 GA, 40.05% xGF
Nurse: 2 GF, 7 GA, 57.49% xGF
Ekholm: 5 GF, 5 GA, 53.46% xGF
Bouchard: 4 GF, 6 GA, 58.97% xGF
Kulak: 3 GF, 2 GA, 59.35% xGF
Desharnais: 2 GF, 2 GA, 48.87% xGF
Broberg: 1 GF, 0 GA, 37.77% xGF

One guy stands out. I'd call Nurse a bit unlucky here, also consider his zone starts are 35%. Nurse carried a huge defensive load and was almost 60% in xGF. Zero lucky getting saves or sh% for. Ceci, on the other hand, disaster, all season honestly, visually and on paper. This is exactly what lots of people thought we were getting when we signed him. I dunno what he was on last year, but he better start taking it again or he needs to go. I can't see a groin injury as an excuse to be always way out of position and not even motioning to come back. That's between the ears. Maybe he wants to live up to his draft pedigree or something like when Chia would have traded him for Hall and he is thinking about the offensive gambles, but he needs to cut that out.

Rest of the gang, meh, I think a lot of guys in this series got goalied both ways, No saves for, loads of saves against. Only 1 was truly awful IMO, and Broberg clearly was not ready for that game 5, but didn't expect much different.

Aside from D though, to me the biggest issues were goaltending and not being able to create 2 offensive lines. We could have survived our D if we could have put a more consistent offensive push, but just didn't have the horses at the worst possible time with Hyman and Kane broken. We still created things and we probably win if LB stayed in net, but it was one and done stuff with McDavid and Drai doing almost everything. Needed more against Hill.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 16:33]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823666 is a reply to message #823660 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 19:35

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

2 Cups

Nah, he's just pushing his old narrative period. If RDO or anyone can provide the available player at the price point that checks the boxes and improves on them and we ship the apparent main player fail of the playoffs outta here, I'm willing to listen! 🤷

The Oilers were unprepared systemically for game one of this series. That was mystifying, completely, for starters against a team in your division that you presumably scouted in the post season. Couldn't arrive at defensive consistency, consistency in goal. Couldn't adjust to Vegas. Vegas had the initiative in the series, Oilers struggling to answer from the beginning. Poor preparation of game plan, poor execution, questionable deployment of Skinner. L2 and L3 struggled against the Eichel line along with Nurse and Ceci, Vegas got saves. Nurse unavailable for game 5. Yes, more ES points would look good on RNH and linemates statline for the series, I thought he was too risk averse offensively and spent too much time compensating in the neutral zone. Not surprising though that the comment above attributes main reason for the series loss to RNH, the first suggestion I've read on the internet that that was the case. To me it was one of many contributors.

It remains that you don't need to score 5 if you can limit the opponent to 3 or less, and you're better in a series if you're not looking unprepared and in a hole in game 1, and inconsistent and unable to recapture upper hand going forward.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823667 is a reply to message #823666 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 20:03

Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
Registered: February 2011

2 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 19:35

It looked like the Oil thought they could ride their red-hot PP to a Cup, but they clearly forgot how inconsistent the officiating becomes during the playoffs. They need to become a better 5-on-5 team in order to get that elusive championship, and for this they need a better group of defencemen.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823668 is a reply to message #823667 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 20:35

nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Amen. Now we know we need a 5v5 team. Move on and build towards that.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823671 is a reply to message #823668 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 22:26

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 20:35

Amen. Now we know we need a 5v5 team. Move on and build towards that.

From Jan 1 this year, Oilers were #4 in goals for % 5v5 and #3 in xGF.

I think 2 main things can be focused on for next year. A better D partner for Nurse, and we have to be 100% sure we have a legit starting goalie for the next playoffs. The partner for Nurse does not have to be spectacular. Need someone with brains that can cover for him well and have a decent first pass. I don't think it needs to be someone much more expensive than Ceci, just a test of our management and scouting to find the right compliment to Nurse's style of play. Ceci trying to be crappy Nurse all year wasn't good enough.

Gotta make a call on Yams too. Ideally a more able top 6 RW would be nice. But if we can have Hyman and Kane healthy next playoffs I think things go very different for us with a 2 line attack again.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 22:29]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

Report message to a moderator

Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823674 is a reply to message #823671 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 22:56

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 21:26

.. I think 2 main things can be focused on for next year. A better D partner for Nurse..

I'd argue that Nurse needs to be that better D partner !

He needs to drastically improve his D-zone coverage ability.. he has lots of areas to improve on.. it should be a summer of development for him, he needs to be much better in order for the team to progress to the highest levels..

[Updated on: Tue, 16 May 2023 23:03]

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823675 is a reply to message #823674 ]	Tue, 16 May 2023 23:04

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 22:56

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 21:26

.. I think 2 main things can be focused on for next year. A better D partner for Nurse..

I'm kinda just accepting that Nurse is gonna do what Nurse is gonna do and there is zero chance he is not an Oiler for the next 7 years. So getting him an ideal partner is the only way to go to ensure the Nurse pair, that will get loads of minutes and defensive responsibility, is as good as it can be.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823677 is a reply to message #823675 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 02:36

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 22:04

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 22:56

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 21:26

.. I think 2 main things can be focused on for next year. A better D partner for Nurse..

Funny thing regarding his lack of defensive IQ, I remember Nurse saying he spent the whole summer "watching video" .. however, his play didn't show any appreciable improvement.. same mistakes and weaknesses he's always had.. maybe he was watching the wrong video.. ?

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823679 is a reply to message #823660 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 08:38

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Ragnarok73 wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 16 May 2023 15:20

Yes I am pushing the narrative that the Oilers scoring was part of the problem. People need to get it into their heads that no matter what they do system wise, the Oilers are NEVER going to be a high end defensive team. NEVER. Their 2 best players, the guys that play a ton and will always play a ton no matter what your depth is like are not wired to play like Bergeron or Kopitar or Danault. Can they play better defense and have they learned to play better defense? Yes they have. But I believe what you see is what you are going to get with them. I don't see McD winning a Selke ever. As much as he likes to say it, I don't see Leon winning a Selke ever. Guys who win Selke's don't throw blind backhanded passes or try to go 1 on 3 when your team is doing a line change. Those things are part of McD's and Leon's game and are part of what make them so amazing offensively because they can do those things and they work. But the Oilers are not ever going to be a high end defensive team, not unless they drastically change the players. Can they improve and be better next year? 100% they can but their bread and butter as long as they have McD and Leon on the team is offense. So they need to play to that strength.

So Nuge being lousy offensively did impact the team. The Oilers didn't play well in game 1, Nuge was very bad but they lost 6-4, the 6th being an empty netter. So 1 goal would have made a difference. Game 5, they lost by 1 goal. So a goal by Nuge, a guy who scored close to 40 goals and 100 pts, would have made a difference. Nuge is on a good contract and I agree, replacing him at the price point probably wouldn't happen but his job is to produce offense and he didn't do his job.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823680 is a reply to message #823679 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

11 points in 12 games.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823682 is a reply to message #823680 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:29

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

Yay getting to be the 4th most important player on a historical PP. Doesn't change that his inability to drive play at all 5v5 was a big reason we could not have McDrai separated.

But enough Nuge bashing. Ceci

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823683 is a reply to message #823682 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:35

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:29

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

Still a part of the historic PP.

Honestly, I think if we're going to continue Nuge bashing (and we can bash Nuge AND Ceci, we've got time) we should focus on his defense and the -6.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Review: Vegas @ Edmonton (Game #6) [message #823685 is a reply to message #823683 ]	Wed, 17 May 2023 09:56

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:35

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:29

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 17 May 2023 09:06

11 points in 12 games.

Still a part of the historic PP.

Honestly, I think if we're going to continue Nuge bashing (and we can bash Nuge AND Ceci, we've got time) we should focus on his defense and the -6.

He was part for sure, heck of a year on the PP. Nuge, McDavid and Drai were on point with their shooting all season. Hope we see that again.

IMO, the -6 was a consequence of not being able to push offensively without his linemates doing the vast majority of the possession. Again though, not that mad at Nuge, not outraged like some are. I know what he is, and he can still be very useful in the top 6 on the wing. The issue was too many other wingers were busted, and Yams just struggled bad the whole way as well. It's a bummer that a 1st OA can't take control of things himself a bit and needs an ideal situation to be created for him to be productive 5v5, but he is what he is and is worth his salary, playing PK too. Regardless of his 5v5 issues, you are not easily replacing what Nuge does for same AAV. If he got a 7.5M+, we could have a bigger beef.

There are players playing almost exactly like you expect, and are useful doing it, and you WISH they would do more, just because it's playoffs and you want guys to hit another effort level. That's basically Nuge for lots of ppl right now. Then there are guys that play like ass all year and are out there visibly causing goals against with nonsensical play :) Even then, maybe they are just playing above what they're capable of, and management took a lucky year for granted. Those are issues that actually need correction for your team to improve. Ceci.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 May 2023 10:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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