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 Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816444]
Tue, 10 January 2023 21:57 Go to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

We've seen a couple comments in here about McDavid and Draisaitl and whether they aren't a big part of the problem, here's my quick argument on why they are not.

Some of the argument that it's on the leaders is around their 5v5 performance. They have not tilted the ice the way you might expect, given their massive talent - especially for McDavid. On traditional +/-, he's +1 (Drai is +3), on 5v5 Corsi he is only at 52% (Draisaitl just under 50%).

All that would maybe be damning except for a few things. First and foremost, they are ridiculously productive with the man advantage. McDavid has 39 powerplay points. He's also picked up a couple of short-handed points. If +/- was across all situations, then McDavid is on the ice for over 40 goals more than goals against. Draisaitl will probably be a little behind that - I'm pretty sure he has been on for more PKGA - but they are still adding enough there that even if they were just break even players at evens, then they are still fantastic.

They shouldn't be break-even players though of course. It should be a nightmare for opposing teams - McDavid goes out and dominates their top line, then Draisaitl goes out and manhandles line #2. In a perfect world, either Nuge or McLeod eats the third line alive too so even if the fourth line just treads water, the Oilers should have the ice tilted for much of the night. Why haven't they?

Well, there's some things that might be partly luck - Shooting percentage, for instance. McDavid is sitting at 21%, but ES on-ice shooting percentage is only 9.9%, so given his percentage, it means his wingers aren't scoring much at all, despite a sublime assist generator on their line.

Shooting percentage isn't all luck though - the Oilers defence still loves to waste point shots on unscreened goalies too which is just a momentum killer. We know that the prior defence coach had stressed volume shooting from the point, which is a horrible strategy that the team hasn't got over in the Woodcroft/Manson era.

Time on ice is probably a factor too. Once again the Oilers are playing the wheels off of their top guys - now even featuring them in PK roles too. They're 2nd and 3rd in the league in TOI per game with only Rantanen getting more time. Pronger spoke when he was here about how at big minutes, it becomes important to be efficient about how you move, what you do, how you engage. He picked his spots on scrums for example, because it takes a lot of energy out of you. As forwards, McDavid and Draisaitl get less opportunity to avoid scrums - in fact, teams target them because of who they are. They aren't giants with reputations for violence like Pronger too, so they're more likely to take abuse.

And can they still produce if they're given less minutes? I'd argue yes, and maybe even more. While McDavid's points per game is in a league of their own, Draisaitl's closest comparables for points per game are Kucherov, Thompson and Pastrnak. Kucherov is a minute and a half a game less. Thompson is over three minutes. Pasta is two and a half minutes less. Playing that much takes a toll - especially when the other team targets you constantly and the refs allow a certain amount of liberties because they feel they can't give you TOO many powerplays. In the top 20 scorers, the only other players seeing close to the same game time as McDavid and Draisaitl are MacKinnon and Rantanen (Rantanen leads all forwards in time on ice - although his usage probably was higher recently with MacKinnon out). No one else is even close.

As I mentioned before, the Oilers system is trying to force a fast break with a long pass. I'd argue it's too much to expect from the defence, and the turnover numbers reflect that. If they can thread the needle to a guy breaking through the neutral zone, it's great - but it's too hard a play to make consistently - especially with a defence without any superstars. It over-stresses the defence, who if they fail are immediately outnumbered in the defensive zone, and it takes a toll on forwards too - who have to race back on the backcheck if the feed fails to materialize. Hardly energy conservation.

Finally, one of the burdens on the Oilers top guns is that there's no one else doing it if they can't score - so they probably do push a little too hard sometimes. They definitely take some longer than desirable shifts, but can you blame them? How many goals has the team scored in the last month when at least one of them isn't on the ice? I bet it isn't even double digits. None of the Oilers depth players has been able to come even CLOSE to catching Evander Kane for 5th in scoring among Oilers forwards. He only has 16 points. None of the depth have passed his 5 goals either. Kostin and Ryan only just recently tied him there. Our production from the depth is pathetic.

Of course, a lot of that goes back to the way the team is built and run. There is no expectation that they're going to provide offence - even with a better bottom six than we've had in ages. The lines are blended constantly, players are elevated and demoted without much rhyme or reason. The bench gets shortened very quickly, and the stars all get pushed together and double shifted instead if the team falls behind. When put up on a line with McDavid or Draisaitl perfection is expected or the leash is incredibly short and someone could be back with the fourth line riding the pine after a single period. With the coach showing no faith in the depth, is there any surprise that the top players feel it's all on them too? I do think sometimes McDavid and Draisaitl push for offence when they should head too the bench at the end of a shift. That can be dangerous - but I understand the instinct. They know if they don't get that tying goal, then the chances of someone else providing it is slim.

In short - it isn't them. Coaching takes a big slice of the blame, because the system has been exposed all year but we haven't seen tweaks. It's mediocre at even strength, dragging the best players to break even levels, and exposing our depth guys. At a man-down, the systems have been atrocious, just comically bad. Woodcroft has seemed stubborn and stuck in his ways this year, and it has really shown.

More important though, of course, is piss poor management and the dreadful culture that sets for the whole organization. It's long past time for a house cleaning. Nicholson doesn't deserve to call his shot in to retirement and neither does Holland. They've just wasted years of time at an absolutely critical point in the franchise's history. If McDavid leaves in three years having never come close to a Cup in Edmonton, I don't know what it does to the fan base. I think it would be worse than even the Gretzky trade though - and I know an awful lot of people who became Kings' fans when that happened.

If you're looking for someone to pillory for where we're at - those guys should be top of the list. No one else should even be close. And certainly not the guy scoring at a rate not seen since the mid 1990s.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816450 is a reply to message #816444 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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2 Cups

The people are blaming McDavid and Draisaitl are either dumb, prefer to live their life in constant conflict and are always argumentative, or are just searching for an easy answer.

A lot of things go into any good team. Confidence, structure, consistency, competency, resiliency, leadership, culture and support.

I am sure I am missing some key elements, but there are holes in all 8 sub-groups I listed. It took years to get to rock bottom and this team has not made enough changes to be a consistent elite team. No one or two players can turn this ship around and we are seeing it in real time. We might catch lightning in a bottle from time-to-time, but we are not going to be the Boston Bruins, Tampa Lightning or Colorado Avalanche any time soon even with a generational talent.

This sucks.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816452 is a reply to message #816444 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Location: edmonton

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When your system isn't working, you look at those who do work. I'd be analyzing the hell out of Boston to see what they're doing this year that is so vastly different than the Oilers.
1) PK - I said it last year and the year before and the year before. We try to play a positional defense, but stop just short of putting real pressure on the puck carrier, whether he's in the neutral or offensive zone. The few teams that successfully stymie our PP attack the puck carrier constantly. Yamamoto has done more of this in the past week than our PK has done all season.
2) fleeing the zone - I agree that McD and Drai likely feel the pressure to score since nobody else can do it, and they're likely playing in a D-zone system designed to give them more freedom, but why do we see Derek Ryan doing the same? I see our d-zone looking for break options at the sacrifice of safety. Peewee problems. We need to slow down our exit to make sure we're exiting. We make too many giveaways to flee the zone hoping to catch a pass.
3) Zone Entries - I understand on the PP giving McDavid the puck to let him do the carrying. Whether he attacks the net or gains the zone to set up the PP possession (as long as he's not heavily harassed, then we lose it like point 2) But 5v5 is different. He should be 2nd in the league in zone entries because there isn't the extra room for his skating. we can see in his 5v5 stats that it's just not as successful and a different plan of attack needs to be implemented. You can't attack with the same strategy 5v5 as you can 5v43, but the Oilers don't seem to understand that. Give the puck to McD and Drai all the time, every time, and they'll make it work seems to be the game plan.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816454 is a reply to message #816444 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Beyond me how anyone can blame anything except terrible management at this point. McDavid and Drai would be doing just fine on a properly run team. Sadly, that may get proven in a few years :(

Team will never be a consistent contender with the Lowe/Bobby Burgers buddy gang.



"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816455 is a reply to message #816454 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
Messages: 1390
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Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 11:22

Beyond me how anyone can blame anything except terrible management at this point. McDavid and Drai would be doing just fine on a properly run team. Sadly, that may get proven in a few years :(

Team will never be a consistent contender with the Lowe/Bobby Burgers buddy gang.


100%. Since 2006, how many players, coaches, and GMs have we gone through? Back then it was "if only we could have gotten a Crosby or even a Stamkos" - well here we are with one of the best to ever play the game and another guy who is a perennial Hart and Art Ross contender, yet here we still sit, right around the middle of the pack.

Sure we could use another Dman or 2 (how good would a healthy Klefbom and Larsson look right now?), but at the end of the day, everyone at every position has changed multiple times over, except the guys at the top. And nothing has changed.

Related note - not that he's "at the top", but how the hell is Dustin Schwartz still employed by the team?




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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816456 is a reply to message #816455 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Mike wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 08:42

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 11:22

Beyond me how anyone can blame anything except terrible management at this point. McDavid and Drai would be doing just fine on a properly run team. Sadly, that may get proven in a few years :(

Team will never be a consistent contender with the Lowe/Bobby Burgers buddy gang.


100%. Since 2006, how many players, coaches, and GMs have we gone through? Back then it was "if only we could have gotten a Crosby or even a Stamkos" - well here we are with one of the best to ever play the game and another guy who is a perennial Hart and Art Ross contender, yet here we still sit, right around the middle of the pack.

Sure we could use another Dman or 2 (how good would a healthy Klefbom and Larsson look right now?), but at the end of the day, everyone at every position has changed multiple times over, except the guys at the top. And nothing has changed.

And not that he's "at the top", but how the hell is Dustin Schwartz still employed by the team?



Because the organization as a whole exists as a protected entity. They're local deities and employ a whole army of priests to protect their interests. If you're fighting the Oilers and those who represent the Oilers you're fighting a multi-million dollar machine that is exists solely to deny this very viewpoint and keep the cash flowing.




Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816464 is a reply to message #816456 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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This is the reason why talk of McDavid leaving is verboten in the legacy media. It's an obvious and possible consequence to present actions and situations, but it threatens the machine and the organization's status. We saw this when Hall was leaving. He went from an absolute deity to the subject of a whisper campaign to he who shall not be named. Same thing with Eakins. I remember there was a two day period before he got fired when the media went from full protection to naming him as the problem. This is so common it's a cliche. The only departed guy that remains protected is MacTavish.


Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816471 is a reply to message #816444 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve  is currently offline Steve
Messages: 113
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Location: Ottawa

No Cups

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.



"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816474 is a reply to message #816471 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10692
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.



I think all of 1, 2 and 3 are the blame of management and coaches though. Really nothing to do with McDavid and Drai.

Get and keep good players and keep their confidence up and make proper use of them. Problem solved. McDrai deals are bargins now so the cap space they use is not an excuse in any way anymore either.

We just didn't do a good job of building this team, so early in the season our coach goes into panic mode and all he can think to do is try to win games using a few players. Super disappointing that Woody would go there, I thought he was better than that and he would be trying to keep everyone involved and try to lift this group up, even if there was some short term pain. Holding some belief that the team he had the last half of last season is still there and keeping some balance would pay off. But, nope, Woody is all about the panicky coaching now it seems, and quick punishing of any little mistake from guys lower on the team social order. And something obviously has gone horribly wrong with how the group plays defense...*cough* Coffey *cough* Gonna keep pounding that Coffey drum because it's ridiculous we added him and seems very deserved that we would suffer if he is sticking his nose in.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 January 2023 15:31]


"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816479 is a reply to message #816471 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816480 is a reply to message #816474 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 7156
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 15:28

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.



I think all of 1, 2 and 3 are the blame of management and coaches though. Really nothing to do with McDavid and Drai.

Get and keep good players and keep their confidence up and make proper use of them. Problem solved. McDrai deals are bargins now so the cap space they use is not an excuse in any way anymore either.

We just didn't do a good job of building this team, so early in the season our coach goes into panic mode and all he can think to do is try to win games using a few players. Super disappointing that Woody would go there, I thought he was better than that and he would be trying to keep everyone involved and try to lift this group up, even if there was some short term pain. Holding some belief that the team he had the last half of last season is still there and keeping some balance would pay off. But, nope, Woody is all about the panicky coaching now it seems, and quick punishing of any little mistake from guys lower on the team social order. And something obviously has gone horribly wrong with how the group plays defense...*cough* Coffey *cough* Gonna keep pounding that Coffey drum because it's ridiculous we added him and seems very deserved that we would suffer if he is sticking his nose in.


Does anyone know what role he's actually playing? It could definitely be a real issue.

McLellan basically ghost-wrote a Spector article about Paul Coffey when he was added as the "skills coach" complaining about how useless an add that was. Woodcroft was part of that team at that time, and likely has a similar view of his old mentor's nemesis. If there does continue to be interference from above in the coaching, well, remember all that stuff I said about toxic culture???



"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816485 is a reply to message #816474 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:28


We just didn't do a good job of building this team, so early in the season our coach goes into panic mode and all he can think to do is try to win games using a few players. Super disappointing that Woody would go there, I thought he was better than that and he would be trying to keep everyone involved and try to lift this group up, even if there was some short term pain. Holding some belief that the team he had the last half of last season is still there and keeping some balance would pay off. But, nope, Woody is all about the panicky coaching now it seems, and quick punishing of any little mistake from guys lower on the team social order.


I do have to wonder how much of this is Woody just trying to keep his job. It's not exactly a secret that the top of the organization views the bottom 6 as a waste of time that is there to just hold space until McDrai are recovered enough to get back on the ice. If your boss(es) tell you that enough times, you're going to start to deploy your roster in a way that gets them off your back.

Would be nice if the Oilers would hire a coach that could ignore any interference from the brain trust but, then again, the brain trust is never going to hire that guy so it's not going to happen while they're still around.



Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816487 is a reply to message #816479 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve  is currently offline Steve
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Location: Ottawa

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Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.



"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816488 is a reply to message #816487 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 18:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.


This is why I worry anytime anyone gets excited about getting rid of a player, because I look at the roster and very very rarely the Oilers have anyone even close to replacing those minutes at anywhere near the same level of play. And even rarer are they able to replace them at the snap of a finger like management and fans think they will. Freeing up cap is a guarentee of nothing.

The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816489 is a reply to message #816485 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Goose wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 16:33

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:28


We just didn't do a good job of building this team, so early in the season our coach goes into panic mode and all he can think to do is try to win games using a few players. Super disappointing that Woody would go there, I thought he was better than that and he would be trying to keep everyone involved and try to lift this group up, even if there was some short term pain. Holding some belief that the team he had the last half of last season is still there and keeping some balance would pay off. But, nope, Woody is all about the panicky coaching now it seems, and quick punishing of any little mistake from guys lower on the team social order.


I do have to wonder how much of this is Woody just trying to keep his job. It's not exactly a secret that the top of the organization views the bottom 6 as a waste of time that is there to just hold space until McDrai are recovered enough to get back on the ice. If your boss(es) tell you that enough times, you're going to start to deploy your roster in a way that gets them off your back.

Would be nice if the Oilers would hire a coach that could ignore any interference from the brain trust but, then again, the brain trust is never going to hire that guy so it's not going to happen while they're still around.


Imagine if we have an "advisor" that has fingers covered in bling and is constantly hanging with the old boys and Bobby, but also sticking his nose into coaching and defensive strategies. Yeah I'm still going there :)

Whatever has changed between what Woody did last year and this year, it's bad, really bad, but sadly, we've seen multiple coaches act exactly the same way. Interference from above in some way definitely would explain it.




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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816490 is a reply to message #816480 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 16:04

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 15:28

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.



I think all of 1, 2 and 3 are the blame of management and coaches though. Really nothing to do with McDavid and Drai.

Get and keep good players and keep their confidence up and make proper use of them. Problem solved. McDrai deals are bargins now so the cap space they use is not an excuse in any way anymore either.

We just didn't do a good job of building this team, so early in the season our coach goes into panic mode and all he can think to do is try to win games using a few players. Super disappointing that Woody would go there, I thought he was better than that and he would be trying to keep everyone involved and try to lift this group up, even if there was some short term pain. Holding some belief that the team he had the last half of last season is still there and keeping some balance would pay off. But, nope, Woody is all about the panicky coaching now it seems, and quick punishing of any little mistake from guys lower on the team social order. And something obviously has gone horribly wrong with how the group plays defense...*cough* Coffey *cough* Gonna keep pounding that Coffey drum because it's ridiculous we added him and seems very deserved that we would suffer if he is sticking his nose in.


Does anyone know what role he's actually playing? It could definitely be a real issue.

McLellan basically ghost-wrote a Spector article about Paul Coffey when he was added as the "skills coach" complaining about how useless an add that was. Woodcroft was part of that team at that time, and likely has a similar view of his old mentor's nemesis. If there does continue to be interference from above in the coaching, well, remember all that stuff I said about toxic culture???



Coffey? Defensive advisor he said in an intermission interview I believe, 1-2 months ago. Freaked me out, but at the same time, seemed to explain a lot of what was happening. Can't shake it now :)



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816493 is a reply to message #816488 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816495 is a reply to message #816493 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



I’ve been on record saying one new dman doesn’t change a thing… but if this were somehow their d pairings, I think it would be a massive improvement;

Nurse-Barrie
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816500 is a reply to message #816493 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



My *new* rule is unless they guy is pushed to the 3rd pair or 4th line with reduced minutes, or floats between there, and isn't on the PP or PK with significant minutes... then suck it up and accept he's on the roster for another year until someone pushes him down the lines.

I've been guilty of it in the past as well.

That said, half the roster is expendable by that metric, and wouldn't sneeze if any of them were moved out. But Barrie is still very much in that useful top half by a mile.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816502 is a reply to message #816495 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 21:13

PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



I’ve been on record saying one new dman doesn’t change a thing… but if this were somehow their d pairings, I think it would be a massive improvement;

Nurse-Barrie
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci


I disagree. One D-man does make a difference if they are true top 4 shut down D. Pushing the lesser able players one spot down takes a huge level of responsibility of of those guys and changes the entire dynamic of the blue line.
I am on the fence if Chychrun is that guy. I know he is the popular trade target over the last 18 months but I don't watch enough Coyotes hockey to know if he defends at a high enough level to make a huge difference.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816512 is a reply to message #816502 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:20

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 21:13

PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



I’ve been on record saying one new dman doesn’t change a thing… but if this were somehow their d pairings, I think it would be a massive improvement;

Nurse-Barrie
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci


I disagree. One D-man does make a difference if they are true top 4 shut down D. Pushing the lesser able players one spot down takes a huge level of responsibility of of those guys and changes the entire dynamic of the blue line.
I am on the fence if Chychrun is that guy. I know he is the popular trade target over the last 18 months but I don't watch enough Coyotes hockey to know if he defends at a high enough level to make a huge difference.


That’s a fair point. He’s not a shutdown guy.



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Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816513 is a reply to message #816512 ]
Wed, 11 January 2023 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 21:37

PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:20

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 21:13

PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



I’ve been on record saying one new dman doesn’t change a thing… but if this were somehow their d pairings, I think it would be a massive improvement;

Nurse-Barrie
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci


I disagree. One D-man does make a difference if they are true top 4 shut down D. Pushing the lesser able players one spot down takes a huge level of responsibility of of those guys and changes the entire dynamic of the blue line.
I am on the fence if Chychrun is that guy. I know he is the popular trade target over the last 18 months but I don't watch enough Coyotes hockey to know if he defends at a high enough level to make a huge difference.


That’s a fair point. He’s not a shutdown guy.


At this point I would accept slightly above average



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816550 is a reply to message #816502 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:20

Oscargasm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 21:13

PlusOne wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:07

nullterm wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 20:54



The group ready to buy Barrie the next airline ticket out of town are the ones worrying me. We don't have anyone close to the positives he brings, they just see the deficiencies.


I can raise my hand as being one who wanted Barrie gone last offseason. I am glad I didn't get my wish.
I expected;
Barrie to be traded for a top 4 stay at home D
Nurse to be better
Bouchard to replace the offense
Broberg to take a step forward
Kulak and Ceci to defend capably

Leaving;
Nurse-Ceci
New guy-Bouchard
Broberg-Kulak

Which should have been a decent 6 but oh my, has that not worked out...

Barrie being one of our better defenders is exactly the problem. He still isn't good at it yet is better than most of the others we can expect to play that role.



I’ve been on record saying one new dman doesn’t change a thing… but if this were somehow their d pairings, I think it would be a massive improvement;

Nurse-Barrie
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci


I disagree. One D-man does make a difference if they are true top 4 shut down D. Pushing the lesser able players one spot down takes a huge level of responsibility of of those guys and changes the entire dynamic of the blue line.
I am on the fence if Chychrun is that guy. I know he is the popular trade target over the last 18 months but I don't watch enough Coyotes hockey to know if he defends at a high enough level to make a huge difference.


They dont even need to be considered true top 4 d-men. They just need to contribute. For example look at the Spacek-Tarnstrom additions in 06. BTW not related. I loved Igor Ulanov.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816555 is a reply to message #816487 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.

I think what Keith and Smith did and what they severely lack and it has been touched upon by some of this years players, they were some vets into the locker room that could bring a little accountability to the room. Smith was a vocal, fiery guy, Keith the been there, done that, won everything. When the guys weren't doing the right things, screwing up in the game, not playing right, they could be a voice to call guys out. The weight of your teammate telling you, you need to be better is a lot more than a coach. The Oilers leadership core is made up or pretty much exclusively, talented but quiet, not rah rah guys. McD isn't a super vocal guy, Nuge isn't a vocal guy, Leon isn't a vocal guy.

Barrie in an interview touched on how they miss that vocal guy to keep them accountable and how HE, being one of the older guys, probably needs to step into that role. Barrie is supposedly a really good, keep the room light, well liked guy in the room. He doesn't strike me as a call you to task guy and no offense but while a decent player, what's he ever won to say "hey, Nurse, don't make that pass" especially when he makes as many mistakes as the rest. So I think they lack a few players who at times can stand up in the room and say guys, we need to be better.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816556 is a reply to message #816555 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 08:42

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.

I think what Keith and Smith did and what they severely lack and it has been touched upon by some of this years players, they were some vets into the locker room that could bring a little accountability to the room. Smith was a vocal, fiery guy, Keith the been there, done that, won everything. When the guys weren't doing the right things, screwing up in the game, not playing right, they could be a voice to call guys out. The weight of your teammate telling you, you need to be better is a lot more than a coach. The Oilers leadership core is made up or pretty much exclusively, talented but quiet, not rah rah guys. McD isn't a super vocal guy, Nuge isn't a vocal guy, Leon isn't a vocal guy.

Barrie in an interview touched on how they miss that vocal guy to keep them accountable and how HE, being one of the older guys, probably needs to step into that role. Barrie is supposedly a really good, keep the room light, well liked guy in the room. He doesn't strike me as a call you to task guy and no offense but while a decent player, what's he ever won to say "hey, Nurse, don't make that pass" especially when he makes as many mistakes as the rest. So I think they lack a few players who at times can stand up in the room and say guys, we need to be better.

Remember, they were awful defensively last year too. So what if Mike Smith & Keith were yelling in the room after a bad defensive play when the bad defensive play never stopped. They gave up 4 goals per game against Calgary and 5.5 against Colorado with Angry Mike Smith and Pants Full of Leadership Duncan Keith. Two old guys who didn't move well that Holland couldn't be bothered to replace even though he knew they were short term players are not the problem.




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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816559 is a reply to message #816556 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 08:42

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.

I think what Keith and Smith did and what they severely lack and it has been touched upon by some of this years players, they were some vets into the locker room that could bring a little accountability to the room. Smith was a vocal, fiery guy, Keith the been there, done that, won everything. When the guys weren't doing the right things, screwing up in the game, not playing right, they could be a voice to call guys out. The weight of your teammate telling you, you need to be better is a lot more than a coach. The Oilers leadership core is made up or pretty much exclusively, talented but quiet, not rah rah guys. McD isn't a super vocal guy, Nuge isn't a vocal guy, Leon isn't a vocal guy.

Barrie in an interview touched on how they miss that vocal guy to keep them accountable and how HE, being one of the older guys, probably needs to step into that role. Barrie is supposedly a really good, keep the room light, well liked guy in the room. He doesn't strike me as a call you to task guy and no offense but while a decent player, what's he ever won to say "hey, Nurse, don't make that pass" especially when he makes as many mistakes as the rest. So I think they lack a few players who at times can stand up in the room and say guys, we need to be better.

Remember, they were awful defensively last year too. So what if Mike Smith & Keith were yelling in the room after a bad defensive play when the bad defensive play never stopped. They gave up 4 goals per game against Calgary and 5.5 against Colorado with Angry Mike Smith and Pants Full of Leadership Duncan Keith. Two old guys who didn't move well that Holland couldn't be bothered to replace even though he knew they were short term players are not the problem.



I have no idea but I look at the team and it's not much different than last years team, the big differences being Keith and Smith gone. Goaltending wise to date, I would probably say it's not worse than last years, maybe so far on par. Campbell probably started off slightly worse than last years, Skinner a bit better. There is the same coaches as the second half of the season. So what's happened?

If Keith and Smith were so bad all the time on the ice like some have suggested, removing them should have made the roster a bit stronger. If they brought nothing to the team in the room, then why has the team taken a step back would be my question.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816561 is a reply to message #816559 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:17

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 08:42

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.

I think what Keith and Smith did and what they severely lack and it has been touched upon by some of this years players, they were some vets into the locker room that could bring a little accountability to the room. Smith was a vocal, fiery guy, Keith the been there, done that, won everything. When the guys weren't doing the right things, screwing up in the game, not playing right, they could be a voice to call guys out. The weight of your teammate telling you, you need to be better is a lot more than a coach. The Oilers leadership core is made up or pretty much exclusively, talented but quiet, not rah rah guys. McD isn't a super vocal guy, Nuge isn't a vocal guy, Leon isn't a vocal guy.

Barrie in an interview touched on how they miss that vocal guy to keep them accountable and how HE, being one of the older guys, probably needs to step into that role. Barrie is supposedly a really good, keep the room light, well liked guy in the room. He doesn't strike me as a call you to task guy and no offense but while a decent player, what's he ever won to say "hey, Nurse, don't make that pass" especially when he makes as many mistakes as the rest. So I think they lack a few players who at times can stand up in the room and say guys, we need to be better.

Remember, they were awful defensively last year too. So what if Mike Smith & Keith were yelling in the room after a bad defensive play when the bad defensive play never stopped. They gave up 4 goals per game against Calgary and 5.5 against Colorado with Angry Mike Smith and Pants Full of Leadership Duncan Keith. Two old guys who didn't move well that Holland couldn't be bothered to replace even though he knew they were short term players are not the problem.



I have no idea but I look at the team and it's not much different than last years team, the big differences being Keith and Smith gone. Goaltending wise to date, I would probably say it's not worse than last years, maybe so far on par. Campbell probably started off slightly worse than last years, Skinner a bit better. There is the same coaches as the second half of the season. So what's happened?

If Keith and Smith were so bad all the time on the ice like some have suggested, removing them should have made the roster a bit stronger. If they brought nothing to the team in the room, then why has the team taken a step back would be my question.

This team hasn't taken a step back. They were a fun to watch non-contender last year and remain the same this year.

Last year they after 43 games they were 23-17-3 GF/GA 142/142. This year they're 22-18-3 153/146




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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816562 is a reply to message #816561 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:17

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:01

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 08:42

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 19:09

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:56

Steve wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 14:55

McDavid and Drai are not to blame, certainly, but I do think that their presence has a psychological effect that can have a negative consequence on the team.

1) The GM thinks he can stock the rest of the roster with AHL players and still win because the stars will carry the team. Multiple McDavid years have been wasted for this reason alone.

2) The depth players think they don't need to score because the stars will do it for them.

3) The coach plays the hell out of the stars thinking that they can win the games by themselves.

These aren't conscious thoughts for those involved, but I think it has an effect. It takes leadership at all three levels to break the cycle. It's not all on the stars to fix these problems happening around them.

We saw the coaching change help last year, but I don't really want the coached changed every year. We may not have the best coaches, but I don't think they are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the supporting cast. Kane, Nuge and Hyman are the type of support players we need, but we need more of them. On defense I didn't think we would miss Duncan Keith as much as we are, but it's been a massive black hole on left D behind Nurse.

The margins for winning in this league are small. The addition of Kane back from injury and a solid defensemen could make a big difference.


I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.



To be clear, I’m not a fan of Duncan Keith either, but I don’t think ‘addition by subtraction’ worked in his case. They still needed to replace him with a better player. They didn’t. Even with his deficiencies, his D position is worse today than it was this time last year.

I think what Keith and Smith did and what they severely lack and it has been touched upon by some of this years players, they were some vets into the locker room that could bring a little accountability to the room. Smith was a vocal, fiery guy, Keith the been there, done that, won everything. When the guys weren't doing the right things, screwing up in the game, not playing right, they could be a voice to call guys out. The weight of your teammate telling you, you need to be better is a lot more than a coach. The Oilers leadership core is made up or pretty much exclusively, talented but quiet, not rah rah guys. McD isn't a super vocal guy, Nuge isn't a vocal guy, Leon isn't a vocal guy.

Barrie in an interview touched on how they miss that vocal guy to keep them accountable and how HE, being one of the older guys, probably needs to step into that role. Barrie is supposedly a really good, keep the room light, well liked guy in the room. He doesn't strike me as a call you to task guy and no offense but while a decent player, what's he ever won to say "hey, Nurse, don't make that pass" especially when he makes as many mistakes as the rest. So I think they lack a few players who at times can stand up in the room and say guys, we need to be better.

Remember, they were awful defensively last year too. So what if Mike Smith & Keith were yelling in the room after a bad defensive play when the bad defensive play never stopped. They gave up 4 goals per game against Calgary and 5.5 against Colorado with Angry Mike Smith and Pants Full of Leadership Duncan Keith. Two old guys who didn't move well that Holland couldn't be bothered to replace even though he knew they were short term players are not the problem.



I have no idea but I look at the team and it's not much different than last years team, the big differences being Keith and Smith gone. Goaltending wise to date, I would probably say it's not worse than last years, maybe so far on par. Campbell probably started off slightly worse than last years, Skinner a bit better. There is the same coaches as the second half of the season. So what's happened?

If Keith and Smith were so bad all the time on the ice like some have suggested, removing them should have made the roster a bit stronger. If they brought nothing to the team in the room, then why has the team taken a step back would be my question.

This team hasn't taken a step back. They were a fun to watch non-contender last year and remain the same this year.

Last year they after 43 games they were 23-17-3 GF/GA 142/142. This year they're 22-18-3 153/146



Then on January 27 we signed Kane and our season turned around. When is Kane due back? Jeez I think we might be stuck in a Groundhog Day like Time loop.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816563 is a reply to message #816479 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rocksteady  is currently offline Rocksteady
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Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 15:56

I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.


We? We miss Duncan Keith? No... no no no my dear friend.. Evan Bouchard misses Duncan Keith, and you can tell by how Bouch has played to see this. He is lost without his mentor on the ice and while Keith the player wasn't the player he was in Chicago and he was all but used up when he got here, the knowledge the tutoring to Evan is sorely missed.

Evan misses Duncan Keith.

I'd even go as far as the entire defensive group misses Keith, he was a stabilizing force back there, and while he couldn't play the game AS WELL as he once did, he still had something the Oilers of today need.. stability.

No analytics or anything will chart the stability this guy brought to the team. We had one year of it, we needed more evidently.



The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816565 is a reply to message #816563 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Anyone else notice on PP2 Nurse had the high slot and Bouchard was either on the far boards or at the top of the faceoff circle on his off hand negating any one timer attempt? Why weren't they trying to get a Bouch bomb off?


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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816566 is a reply to message #816565 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 10:12

Anyone else notice on PP2 Nurse had the high slot and Bouchard was either on the far boards or at the top of the faceoff circle on his off hand negating any one timer attempt? Why weren't they trying to get a Bouch bomb off?


I don't know. I've seen this out of a lot of teams I've watched recently too. I always want to see a one timer option on both sides. This and this 1-3-1 Powerplay crap too. I just hate it. One bumble or blocked shot and it s a breakaway/ odd-man rush the other way.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816567 is a reply to message #816563 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Rocksteady wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:45

Adam wrote on Wed, 11 January 2023 15:56

I still think that "We miss Duncan Keith" is just the biggest myth going. The guy was atrocious in the playoffs. His lack of foot speed was constantly exposed and he was burned for many, many goals against. He's a minus player in that playoffs, and almost single-handedly lost us the one game against Los Angeles.

The defence has all underperformed this year, but I don't really think the difference maker is Keith, and I think the system flaws are still there whether he is or not. He might actually make it worse given that he can't skate any more.

If we REALLY believed we need his leadership, then they should just pay for a flight to get him to come hang out with the team and impart pearls of wisdom.

I do miss the cap credit we should have gotten from his retirement though. Stupid NHL.


We? We miss Duncan Keith? No... no no no my dear friend.. Evan Bouchard misses Duncan Keith, and you can tell by how Bouch has played to see this. He is lost without his mentor on the ice and while Keith the player wasn't the player he was in Chicago and he was all but used up when he got here, the knowledge the tutoring to Evan is sorely missed.

Evan misses Duncan Keith.

I'd even go as far as the entire defensive group misses Keith, he was a stabilizing force back there, and while he couldn't play the game AS WELL as he once did, he still had something the Oilers of today need.. stability.

No analytics or anything will chart the stability this guy brought to the team. We had one year of it, we needed more evidently.


It's a great narrative, but it's just a narrative. With Keith and Smith in the lineup, we were badly underperforming until February of last year. The same issues were there then too. Those two were then awful in the playoffs too.

It's not just Bouchard who's looked worse this year - it's the group. The systems that the Oilers are employing, and that the coaching group has stubbornly stuck to, do no favours to the defence. It makes them all look bad.

Remember Kulak through the end of the season and the playoffs? Limited Keith exposure, looked really solid. People thought it was great to sign him long-term as a top-four guy...annnnd big step back. Nurse, Ceci - both steps back. It's not like this is just Evan Bouchard.

Duncan Keith was not a big loss for the Oilers and should have been easily backfilled, especially with the tax relief that came with his and Smith's departures. The Oilers signed Ryan Murray and hoped that Broberg and Niemelainen were going to be the bandaid they'd need. Maybe that even works, if the system doesn't suck and make breakouts more difficult. We miss last year's Woodcroft much more than we do Duncan Keith...even if he would tell people to smarten up every so often.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816568 is a reply to message #816566 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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and we gave up 2 on the same PP


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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816569 is a reply to message #816562 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:32


Then on January 27 we signed Kane and our season turned around. When is Kane due back? Jeez I think we might be stuck in a Groundhog Day like Time loop.


Last year the season was delay and there was the Christmas covid break so game 43 didn't happen until mid-February. I wonder how many people are going to be fooled into thinking the Oilers are a good team during February. Starting on Jan 21 to feb 25 the schedule is:

Van
CBJ
Chi
Det
Phi
Ott
Mtl
Det
NYR
Col

Phi
Pit
CBJ

Current playoff teams and defending champs bolded.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816570 is a reply to message #816569 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:01

Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 09:32


Then on January 27 we signed Kane and our season turned around. When is Kane due back? Jeez I think we might be stuck in a Groundhog Day like Time loop.


Last year the season was delay and there was the Christmas covid break so game 43 didn't happen until mid-February. I wonder how many people are going to be fooled into thinking the Oilers are a good team during February. Starting on Jan 21 to feb 25 the schedule is:

Van
CBJ
Chi
Det
Phi
Ott
Mtl
Det
NYR
Col

Phi
Pit
CBJ

Current playoff teams and defending champs bolded.


So it's all schedule quirk. We got all the good teams first. We got this! Stay the course ;).±± I think I might have ingested too much of my own kool-aid. Good stuff though. Look out for All New Baba Brew at a store near you.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 January 2023 11:14]


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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816571 is a reply to message #816570 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:11



So it's all schedule quirk. We got all the good teams first. We got this! Stay the course ;).±± I think I might have ingested too much of my own kool-aid. Good stuff though. Look out for All New Baba Brew at a store near you.

As long as I stop hearing about the magic of Smith n Keith for two weeks, I'll be happy. Yes, it'll be replaced by the magic of Kane, but at least he's still a real impactful NHL player.

They need to win at least 8 of those 13 though. 8-3-2 or something.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816572 is a reply to message #816571 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:18

Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:11



So it's all schedule quirk. We got all the good teams first. We got this! Stay the course ;).±± I think I might have ingested too much of my own kool-aid. Good stuff though. Look out for All New Baba Brew at a store near you.

As long as I stop hearing about the magic of Smith n Keith for two weeks, I'll be happy. Yes, it'll be replaced by the magic of Kane, but at least he's still a real impactful NHL player.

They need to win at least 8 of those 13 though. 8-3-2 or something.


You know, I'd be okay with these narratives, knowing that media loves an old-warrior-as-mentor story (remember hearing how Oates' dreadful final season was really just planting seeds for the 2006 Cup run?) but that our management is likely to ignore all evidence to the contrary and pay through the nose for some other broken down old guy to come and "show the team how to win" rather than finding someone impactful who can actually help.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816580 is a reply to message #816570 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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That schedule looks really good, but I have zero trust we can go on a big run against those teams. This season is in jeopardy and ol'Kenny needs to take a good look in the mirror. should be running with Vegas right now, but instead we are in the middle of the wild card race and playing .500 in the worst division in the NHL.

Last nights win was nice, but I am not a happy go lucky fan right now. We need a sustained great run from here on out.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816582 is a reply to message #816572 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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Adam wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:50

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:18

Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:11



So it's all schedule quirk. We got all the good teams first. We got this! Stay the course ;).±± I think I might have ingested too much of my own kool-aid. Good stuff though. Look out for All New Baba Brew at a store near you.

As long as I stop hearing about the magic of Smith n Keith for two weeks, I'll be happy. Yes, it'll be replaced by the magic of Kane, but at least he's still a real impactful NHL player.

They need to win at least 8 of those 13 though. 8-3-2 or something.


You know, I'd be okay with these narratives, knowing that media loves an old-warrior-as-mentor story (remember hearing how Oates' dreadful final season was really just planting seeds for the 2006 Cup run?) but that our management is likely to ignore all evidence to the contrary and pay through the nose for some other broken down old guy to come and "show the team how to win" rather than finding someone impactful who can actually help.


Personally I think Oates did help. Stoll and Horcoff both turned into face-off studs in rather short order.



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 Re: Why it isn't McDavid's Fault [message #816583 is a reply to message #816582 ]
Thu, 12 January 2023 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 17:47

Adam wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:50

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:18

Babaganoosh2.0 wrote on Thu, 12 January 2023 11:11



So it's all schedule quirk. We got all the good teams first. We got this! Stay the course ;).±± I think I might have ingested too much of my own kool-aid. Good stuff though. Look out for All New Baba Brew at a store near you.

As long as I stop hearing about the magic of Smith n Keith for two weeks, I'll be happy. Yes, it'll be replaced by the magic of Kane, but at least he's still a real impactful NHL player.

They need to win at least 8 of those 13 though. 8-3-2 or something.


You know, I'd be okay with these narratives, knowing that media loves an old-warrior-as-mentor story (remember hearing how Oates' dreadful final season was really just planting seeds for the 2006 Cup run?) but that our management is likely to ignore all evidence to the contrary and pay through the nose for some other broken down old guy to come and "show the team how to win" rather than finding someone impactful who can actually help.


Personally I think Oates did help. Stoll and Horcoff both turned into face-off studs in rather short order.



Their coach was Craig MacTavish, who was there for a lot longer than half a season and who was one of the top faceoff guys in his day too. Also Stoll and Horcoff got stronger, more experienced and wiser. I'm not saying Oates had nothing to do with it, just that it was completely overblown. His influence was minor at best, because he was here a very short time, and they were likely improving anyway. It's just a great story to write about if you're a scribe, and if you tell people that again and again and again over the next five years, then people really believe it rather than believing the less exciting narrative that two young players worked at their craft, that the coach prioritized face-offs as part of his skill development (he also prioritized shot blocking which also improved significantly during that time) and that playing with and practicing against each other for years probably made both better.




"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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