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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809857 is a reply to message #809856 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 10:54

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:42

The AAV is in line with your comparable players. Looks like RDOF is structuring the money to hopefully coincide with Jesse's box car stats to take an uptick. I can get the reasoning, but I don't think back loading a deal makes it an attractive transaction to potentially trade down the road...not that you should be expecting to trade him if he were to sign.

Gotta either believe in the player or not. Pulju is obviously going to believe in his own abilities, and I don't think getting locked in for 3rd line money for more than 1 or 2 years will be acceptable.

If we're not willing to go up to 3.3 or so for at least a few years, likely the trade is needed. And if he ends up playing well for someone else, just throw it on the pile of examples of the Oilers understanding less than other teams about a player we developed from the draft. Obviously would also be an example of why we can't build a contender

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809858 is a reply to message #809857 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 10:57

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Yep. The book is not finished on Puljujarvi in Edmonton, but it definitely close. Time to cross our fingers and hope.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809860 is a reply to message #809856 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 11:12

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:42

The AAV is in line with your comparable players. Looks like RDOF is structuring the money to hopefully coincide with Jesse's box car stats to take an uptick. I can get the reasoning, but I don't think back loading a deal makes it an attractive transaction to potentially trade down the road...not that you should be expecting to trade him if he were to sign.

I think it depends on the length of the deal. Gurianov's deal was for 1 RFA year. If the Oilers want to sign Puljujarvi for 1 or 2 of his RFA years then the AAV is going to be close to $3M ($2M is a pipe dream imo). Once you start buying multiple UFA years, the price goes up from there.

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809864 is a reply to message #809860 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 11:43

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Goose wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:12

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:42

The AAV is in line with your comparable players. Looks like RDOF is structuring the money to hopefully coincide with Jesse's box car stats to take an uptick. I can get the reasoning, but I don't think back loading a deal makes it an attractive transaction to potentially trade down the road...not that you should be expecting to trade him if he were to sign.

I think it depends on the length of the deal. Gurianov's deal was for 1 RFA year. If the Oilers want to sign Puljujarvi for 1 or 2 of his RFA years then the AAV is going to be close to $3M ($2M is a pipe dream imo). Once you start buying multiple UFA years, the price goes up from there.

I look at JP as the Oilers potential version of what Coleman was to Tampa before he moved on to Calgary for the money. A good top 9 player who can slide up and down your top 3 lines, maybe gets some time on one of the special teams from time to time but if he's on your 3rd line most of the time, that means your team is probably really good. To have that type of guy is super valuable. If his cap hit is around 3, however they want to get that, he can be that guy. In my opinion, as soon as you start paying him 4 or more, he can't be that guy because that's too much to pay a player if they spend time on your 3rd line.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809869 is a reply to message #809864 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 12:30

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:43

I look at JP as the Oilers potential version of what Coleman was to Tampa before he moved on to Calgary for the money. A good top 9 player who can slide up and down your top 3 lines, maybe gets some time on one of the special teams from time to time but if he's on your 3rd line most of the time, that means your team is probably really good. To have that type of guy is super valuable. If his cap hit is around 3, however they want to get that, he can be that guy. In my opinion, as soon as you start paying him 4 or more, he can't be that guy because that's too much to pay a player if they spend time on your 3rd line.

I understand your reasoning here, but I don't think the market is in line with what you want to sign Puljujarvi for. 15-20 goal RFA's are signing in the $3M - $4M range (worth noting that Puljujarvi's 82 game pace over the past 2 years is 20 goals), you're just not getting one for the $1.8M that Coleman signed for in 2018.

Like, what are the options here?

Trade Puljujarvi for Connor Brown to basically replace his production for $3.6M for 1 year? I don't see how that gets the Oilers any further ahead in the short-term, and probably hurts them in the long-term.

I guess you could trade Puljujarvi for another RFA with similar production that's signed for this year and then just kick the conversation down the road by one season.

Or you can try to replace Puljujarvi's production internally, which feels like it does not really mesh with a win now mentality.

I guess what frustrates me the most is that there are probably 10 cap issues on the Oilers that I would deal before I got concerned about paying a top 6 winger $4M, but it seems like for whatever reason the Oilers see giving Puljujarvi a raise in line with the market right now is a bridge too far.

[Updated on: Wed, 06 July 2022 12:33]

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809870 is a reply to message #809869 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 12:52

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Goose wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 12:30

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 10:43

I look at JP as the Oilers potential version of what Coleman was to Tampa before he moved on to Calgary for the money. A good top 9 player who can slide up and down your top 3 lines, maybe gets some time on one of the special teams from time to time but if he's on your 3rd line most of the time, that means your team is probably really good. To have that type of guy is super valuable. If his cap hit is around 3, however they want to get that, he can be that guy. In my opinion, as soon as you start paying him 4 or more, he can't be that guy because that's too much to pay a player if they spend time on your 3rd line.

I understand your reasoning here, but I don't think the market is in line with what you want to sign Puljujarvi for. 15-20 goal RFA's are signing in the $3M - $4M range (worth noting that Puljujarvi's 82 game pace over the past 2 years is 20 goals), you're just not getting one for the $1.8M that Coleman signed for in 2018.

Like, what are the options here?

Trade Puljujarvi for Connor Brown to basically replace his production for $3.6M for 1 year? I don't see how that gets the Oilers any further ahead in the short-term, and probably hurts them in the long-term.

I guess you could trade Puljujarvi for another RFA with similar production that's signed for this year and then just kick the conversation down the road by one season.

Or you can try to replace Puljujarvi's production internally, which feels like it does not really mesh with a win now mentality.

I guess what frustrates me the most is that there are probably 10 cap issues on the Oilers that I would deal before I got concerned about paying a top 6 winger $4M, but it seems like for whatever reason the Oilers see giving Puljujarvi a raise in line with the market right now is a bridge too far.

I said I would look for him to have a cap hit around 3 mill. I used Coleman just as an example of who I think is a good utility forward that I see JP having the skill set to become. The production I am looking to replace is in the 14-15 goal, 35 pt area. With a flat cap and a lot of teams not having a ton of cap space, I believe there will be guys who can give you that type of offense for 3 mill if JP doesn't work out.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809834 is a reply to message #809806 ]	Tue, 05 July 2022 19:21

AndersonRules
Messages: 94
Registered: April 2008
Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma (OKC ar...

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:51

Is my analysis/opinion of what JP is right now accurate in your eyes? I think he is a good 3rd liner who can get some PP time, who can move up from time to time to your top 6 and not look out of place. Based on his numbers, he does lots of the smaller things that can go unnoticed at times well, there is talent there especially when you pair it with his size but he probably needs a little more refinement in his game to be a lock to be an every day top 6 guy. But to date he's a good NHL player that can help your team.
So is he a lock to be a top 6 guy right now and for the future? No.
Could be become one? He might.
Could he also stay as just a good 3rd liner? Yes.
Is it fair to say he has more development and there is still uncertainty and inconsistency in his game? Yes.

So is my assessment on the player accurate or am I wrong again?

If my assessment is fair and accurate, then what would you consider an upgrade on a player who today is an 3rd liner but might become more but might not?

No, your analysis isn't even close to accurate. Stats-wise, eyes-wise, and analytics-wise, JP is a competent 2nd-line RW, or an elite-level 3rd-line RW.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809808 is a reply to message #809802 ]	Tue, 05 July 2022 15:04

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.

It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.

These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.

Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.

And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?

First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him. BUT...I make sure I have talked to the kid enough times and used multiple approaches to get him to buy in to the what the team and coaching staff wants.

The GM has to be able to separate the player and the budget. JP (his agents and parents and dog) has to know he's wanted in the lineup and will be given every opportunity to earn big minutes and big money, but he hasn't earned it yet. Under no circumstances will the player be given away because there's an opportunity to turn this team into a Stanley Cup champion (so long as they don't do something stupid like buying out Kassian or going with a Smith / Skinner tandem - whatever).

If JP is on board for that, he's welcome to earn his next contract. If JP isn't on board, they're welcome to find a trade. The Oilers need a player who can replace JP's production at X dollars. Or he can go back to Finland or play in Suisse with Koskinen, but he's not going to get a 5 million dollar contract there either.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809815 is a reply to message #809808 ]	Tue, 05 July 2022 15:33

inverno76
Messages: 2343
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 15:04

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:20

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 14:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:57

inverno76 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:35

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 11:16

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:50

smyth260 wrote on Tue, 05 July 2022 09:44

It’s funny and sad that we just watched Cogliano win a cup after a useful 1000+ game career, and we are prepared to trade another useful player too early because he’s not scoring like an elite first round pick.

I hope Woodcroft is pushing back on this. He seems like the only one who has a chance at understanding that Puljujarvi has a useful role on good NHL teams, despite the fact that he doesn’t score 25 goals.

It's the Oilers way.

Why did we trade Cogs anyway? Just decided we need to wipe out all memories of a rebuild to start a new one?

This article says he didn't compete hard enough and couldn't win faceoffs.

https://oilersnation.com/2011/07/12/oilers-trade-cogliano/

Not good enough for the dominant winning team Tambo was building in 2011, and years before as he was shopping him every summer.

They got rid of Cogliano because he saw himself as a top 6 center and would accept nothing else and the Oilers saw him as the 3rd line checking winger that he's been since being traded to the Ducks who turned him into that as soon as the got there and been doing for the last 11 yrs and excelling at.

Gregor and Strudwick were talking about Cogliano last week. Supposedly Gregor is friends with him and so is Strudwick and according to Strudwick. Cogliano would have been out of the NHL a long time ago if he hadn't agreed to the change then he got traded to the Ducks. Take it for what it's worth I guess but a player has to agree to the role you want him in.

These players are kids and sometimes irrational at that age. Why did it change when he was traded? Did a veteran talk to him? Coach? Management? Didn't we do this with Todd Marchant too?

Cogliano has never came across as more than a team player on any franchise he has ever played on. The Oilers dropped the ball at managing this asset.

Because the Ducks had Getzlaf and Kessler already as their 1 & 2 centers, both of whom were established and better top 6 centers so Cogliano so he had not choice. He's been interviewed and said it ended up being the right role for him but at the time he didn't see it that way and he wasn't going to do it on the Oilers.

So I guess the Oilers could have kept him, forced him into the role they thought he should play and were right about, forced Cogliano to play a position he wanted nothing to do with. Have him be miserable and not play well or they could have moved him. If your argument is, the Oilers at the time didn't get enough for him, 100% they didn't. But I don't agree with keeping a player and try to force him to do something he has no interest in doing. It's not good for the team to have a guy who's unhappy, nor will you get good results from a miserable player.

And this where the Oilers fail. Any high level organization should have their staff trained in conflict management. A pro athlete's desires are no different than a junior associate. If the management team has a valuable resource who is unhappy, then the initial discussions to remedy the issue need to take place. A lot of time that eagerness for success is just showcasing the player/staff work ethic and desire to be a team player. Nurture it.

If they are still at an impasse, then it's time work around the position and focus on the interest. Cogliano wanted to be a center and a top 6 forward, but Edmonton said no way Jose. You are not capable of holding the spot, because of this reason, this reason and that reason, but we do see these awesome attributes that will allow you to be a 20 year NHL vet and a key component to us winning long-term. We see you as a winger who will play important ice-time and special teams. We encourage you to work on your faceoffs, etc and will provide you with the tools to succeed, and when we both see some development we can give you some elevated minutes.

I gave a cookie cutter example, but conflict is conflict, is conflict. It is manageable and if your organization decides to part ways with a player/staff member over a vision or a goal then that's an organizational fail. These kids are human, and have the capacity for reason.

It is possible that these discussions took place, but this was also a time in Oilers history where we also mismanaged Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth, etc.

So how would you respond to the report that apparently has come from the JP camp is the Oilers have discussed JP's role with him understanding that the team is looking to build a winner. The role they want/see JP in right now and want to pay him as, is as a what he played this past season. He spends some time in the top 6, gets some PP time but right now they see him best suited as a real good 3rd liner. BUT he could work his way up to a permanent top 6 guy. Sounds exactly like he is right now. I have read articles on other sites written by guys who believe in and do all the numbers and they say the same thing. Really good 3rd liner who based on the numbers, looks like he could become a a top 6 guy.

So I think that would be fantastic role for him and a role that other teams that win have filled with guys like him. Real good utility players who can move up and down, dabble in special teams but when they are on the 3rd line, DAMN they are a good team. Those guys get paid alright not not huge money. Then other teams come along after they win and scoop them up giving them more role and more money. Calgary did that last year with Coleman. Brought him over and now pay him 4.9 mill. He's still a good player but doesn't look as good compared to when he was making way less.

JP's camp has come out and supposedly said they want nothing to do that that. They want to be in the top 6 starting next season, stay there and be paid accordingly. They have no interest in playing the role the Oilers want him to play nor do they have interest in being paid to do that role at the rate the Oilers want to pay him.

So what's the correct way to handle that? The team has discussed the role with the player, tried to convince him of that role, player wants nothing to do with it and won't sign a contract at the moment because of that. So what should they do?

First off, I have not heard one legitimate source say that he's demanding top dollar or top minutes, but it has been speculated and Spector and Matheson have doused gas on that fire to the point where people believe it, and it has now become factual.

If it is true, I play hard ball with the guy unless the return is an upgrade. Joe Sakic made a huge trade by waiting it out. The Jesse detractors out there would not even miss him if he was out of the lineup. If his value is only a 3rd line winger and or a second pick in a weak draft as reported by some, then sit on him. BUT...I make sure I have talked to the kid enough times and used multiple approaches to get him to buy in to the what the team and coaching staff wants.

The GM has to be able to separate the player and the budget. JP (his agents and parents and dog) has to know he's wanted in the lineup and will be given every opportunity to earn big minutes and big money, but he hasn't earned it yet. Under no circumstances will the player be given away because there's an opportunity to turn this team into a Stanley Cup champion (so long as they don't do something stupid like buying out Kassian or going with a Smith / Skinner tandem - whatever).

If JP is on board for that, he's welcome to earn his next contract. If JP isn't on board, they're welcome to find a trade. The Oilers need a player who can replace JP's production at X dollars. Or he can go back to Finland or play in Suisse with Koskinen, but he's not going to get a 5 million dollar contract there either.

Yep. The current CBA gives the Oilers enough leverage to wait him out. I would be curious to what an arbitrator would give him, but like RDOF mentioned, box scores pay and underlying numbers just win games. If Jesse wanted to go to arb, I would welcome it. This should be a much smaller problem than it is being made out. The deck is stacked against Jesse, but yet it still feels like we are about to fold.

This is what happens when there is no real hockey news to report on.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809820 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Tue, 05 July 2022 15:46

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

It's funny how this season actually worked out very well for us with Pulju. We all got to see what Pulju was capable of playing with McDavid. He was amazing in the first half of the year, we were freaking out about how he was playing himself off the team because he would cost too much. Think he was on pace for a 60+ point season, something like 23 points in 28 games. Then his season gets derailed by COVID and a number of injuries. Any player already signed long term, you just accept that, get better in the summer, hit the ground running next year. Everyone knows that stuff happens sometimes and seasons get messed up with illness/injuries. With Pulju though, that last half year just kills his ability to negotiate the extension he was on pace for. It creates a nice opening for the Oilers to sign a better deal with him. We don't seem to want to take advantage of the good fortune though. A well managed team probably would.

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2022 15:49]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809848 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:19

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Red Wings Diehards @RedWingDiehards
Jeff Marek just said on NHL Network radio that he believes that if Jesse Puuljujarvi is out in Edmonton…Detroit could be a leading candidate to acquire the player

Strongly dislike this tweet.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809849 is a reply to message #809848 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:25

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

We’re not winning that deal…

Clean house or bust

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809850 is a reply to message #809849 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:40

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I don't know, the Red Wings might owe Holland a favor. They've got a ton a good young players, kind of like the first rebuild Oilers and a few extra draft picks this year. Maybe the Oilers get Lucas Raymond or the early negotiation rights for Sam Gagne.

Fun fact: cap friendly has Jordan Osterle as Detroit's 2nd most expensive defenseman at $1.35m.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809851 is a reply to message #809850 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:46

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Players drafted really high like JP always get a TON of rope with teams. So it's not surprising teams would have interest. If the Oilers can't get something worked out with JP to stay, get a bidding war going.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809852 is a reply to message #809850 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:47

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 767
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Do you really think any GM OTHER than Ken Holland goes into a trade thinking he 'owes' the other guy anything?

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809853 is a reply to message #809852 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 09:53

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7804
Registered: December 2003
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 09:47

Do you really think any GM OTHER than Ken Holland goes into a trade thinking he 'owes' the other guy anything?

We have to hope, don't we? Maybe other GMs know him well enough that Detroit will 'take one for the team' so the rest of the league can keep stringing him along. Especially after the AA / Green trades.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809854 is a reply to message #809853 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 10:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I don't see a trade if it happens where the return is not much. Holland when he took the job had the chance to make the wash my hands of the guy trade. He didn't draft him, had no involvement in what happened before and he could say he wouldn't have even picked him that high. But he didn't. So if a trade happens, I think a usable piece comes back. It may not be enough for some if you are in the camp that JP is an elite player that makes McD a better player. But I don't see scraps coming back.

I could see the return not being enough and the JP camp having to settle for a 1 yr deal or don't play in the NHL at all.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809863 is a reply to message #809854 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 11:37

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 767
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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yeah, but AA was supposedly a usable piece and Holland knew quite well. he sure didn't price himself off the team. I just have no faith in our ability to negotiate a trade competently unfortunately.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #809865 is a reply to message #809863 ]	Wed, 06 July 2022 11:50

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Wed, 06 July 2022 11:37

yeah, but AA was supposedly a usable piece and Holland knew quite well. he sure didn't price himself off the team. I just have no faith in our ability to negotiate a trade competently unfortunately.

Since we're in speculation. I did see a while back talk about how AA was never ever going to sign with us, and is another one of those party dudes that wants to live the big life in a big city like Panarin. Which explains why he took a lower offer with LA.

If that's the case...nice read of a player you developed and had a relationship with since the draft Holland!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810386 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Tue, 12 July 2022 19:41

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Well what the heck. Apparently this is Brad Holland in an interview with DNB

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXgZqQBUUAAHf4t?format=png&name=small

Sometimes a savoir comes from unlikely places?

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810394 is a reply to message #810386 ]	Tue, 12 July 2022 20:27

Oscargasm
Messages: 5911
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 12 July 2022 19:41

Well what the heck. Apparently this is Brad Holland in an interview with DNB

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXgZqQBUUAAHf4t?format=png&name=small

Sometimes a savoir comes from unlikely places?

Who thought the offspring of a vacuum salesman would be the answer to correct the Oilers analytics shortfalls? Must have studied daddies sales logs rather extensively

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810664 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Sun, 17 July 2022 10:53

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Quote:

zach laing@zjlaing

expect some big news to drop around the edmonton oilers today. exactly six hours from now, at 3 p.m. mst this afternoon, it's the deadline for players who are arbitration-eligible to file.

the oilers two arbitration-eligible players: jesse puljujarvi and kailer yamamoto.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810670 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Sun, 17 July 2022 16:36

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4421
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Files for Arbitration as expected..

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810677 is a reply to message #810670 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 08:32

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Just my opinion but I think JP gets BAD advice from his agent and he doesn't strike me as the assertive type who is willing/able to make calls on his own. He does what his agent tells him to do and I do not think his agent is objective enough and tells him the truth, he tells JP what he wants to hear. For a guy who apparently is a massive confidence guy to the point where if he's not feeling confident in himself, he almost goes into paralysis with his game, going to arb where the player does nothing but say everything he does well to pump up his value and the team picks apart everything he does poorly, this could go very bad for him confidence wise.

I have heard/read by lots of hockey insiders, the issue with JP and a trade is they think exactly like the Oilers do. They like him, they recognize he does lots of things well but there is development needed still. They see him in the same role as the Oilers, 3rd liner that could move up but they aren't sure yet so because they are unsure what he will be, they don't want to trade for an unsigned player and potentially overpay. A big point of analytics is to find guys who are really good but aren't paid much yet. So if JP gets 3.5 mill or more he has to pan out otherwise if he turns into just a 3rd liner who's making 3.5+, he's not a bargain anymore. So what surprises me is if JP thinks he's getting held back and needs a fresh start, why hasn't the agent signed a 2 yr deal at just over 2 mill. Double his salary. Then other teams have cost certainty, if he pops he will be a big time value, if he doesn't he's paid at a price point that as a 3rd liner, it's fine. Then at 26 when the deal is up, he'd be a UFA I believe, he's still got 6+ yrs of prime years left and he can hit his homerun deal if he pops.

Just my opinion but if he truly wants out, he's not making it easy on the team to trade him.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810681 is a reply to message #810677 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 08:45

Adam
Messages: 7178
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:32

Just my opinion but I think JP gets BAD advice from his agent and he doesn't strike me as the assertive type who is willing/able to make calls on his own. He does what his agent tells him to do and I do not think his agent is objective enough and tells him the truth, he tells JP what he wants to hear. For a guy who apparently is a massive confidence guy to the point where if he's not feeling confident in himself, he almost goes into paralysis with his game, going to arb where the player does nothing but say everything he does well to pump up his value and the team picks apart everything he does poorly, this could go very bad for him confidence wise.

I have heard/read by lots of hockey insiders, the issue with JP and a trade is they think exactly like the Oilers do. They like him, they recognize he does lots of things well but there is development needed still. They see him in the same role as the Oilers, 3rd liner that could move up but they aren't sure yet so because they are unsure what he will be, they don't want to trade for an unsigned player and potentially overpay. A big point of analytics is to find guys who are really good but aren't paid much yet. So if JP gets 3.5 mill or more he has to pan out otherwise if he turns into just a 3rd liner who's making 3.5+, he's not a bargain anymore. So what surprises me is if JP thinks he's getting held back and needs a fresh start, why hasn't the agent signed a 2 yr deal at just over 2 mill. Double his salary. Then other teams have cost certainty, if he pops he will be a big time value, if he doesn't he's paid at a price point that as a 3rd liner, it's fine. Then at 26 when the deal is up, he'd be a UFA I believe, he's still got 6+ yrs of prime years left and he can hit his homerun deal if he pops.

Just my opinion but if he truly wants out, he's not making it easy on the team to trade him.

A) the player and his agent and the team have all denied that he wants to leave.

B) his agent’s job is to make him the most money he can. Taking a two year deal where he leaves a million or more on the table for each year isn’t good financial advice.

C) he has arbitration rights so it makes sense to use them unless he’s at a point where he is very close to a deal or if he thought it more likely he was going to get an offer sheet - since once you file for arbitration you can no longer accept offer sheets.

I see no evidence that his agent is leading him astray and I’ve seen nothing from him this summer that Oilers fans should be getting their panties in a bunch about. The only people clearly freaking out are our brutal media members who desperately want the team to flush this player. They’re wrong of course but they see this as a victory against the stats guys if the team gets rid of him and they probably still don’t like that he left the team for Finland a couple years ago. They should not be believed.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810682 is a reply to message #810681 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 09:13

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:45

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:32

Just my opinion but I think JP gets BAD advice from his agent and he doesn't strike me as the assertive type who is willing/able to make calls on his own. He does what his agent tells him to do and I do not think his agent is objective enough and tells him the truth, he tells JP what he wants to hear. For a guy who apparently is a massive confidence guy to the point where if he's not feeling confident in himself, he almost goes into paralysis with his game, going to arb where the player does nothing but say everything he does well to pump up his value and the team picks apart everything he does poorly, this could go very bad for him confidence wise.

I have heard/read by lots of hockey insiders, the issue with JP and a trade is they think exactly like the Oilers do. They like him, they recognize he does lots of things well but there is development needed still. They see him in the same role as the Oilers, 3rd liner that could move up but they aren't sure yet so because they are unsure what he will be, they don't want to trade for an unsigned player and potentially overpay. A big point of analytics is to find guys who are really good but aren't paid much yet. So if JP gets 3.5 mill or more he has to pan out otherwise if he turns into just a 3rd liner who's making 3.5+, he's not a bargain anymore. So what surprises me is if JP thinks he's getting held back and needs a fresh start, why hasn't the agent signed a 2 yr deal at just over 2 mill. Double his salary. Then other teams have cost certainty, if he pops he will be a big time value, if he doesn't he's paid at a price point that as a 3rd liner, it's fine. Then at 26 when the deal is up, he'd be a UFA I believe, he's still got 6+ yrs of prime years left and he can hit his homerun deal if he pops.

Just my opinion but if he truly wants out, he's not making it easy on the team to trade him.

A) the player and his agent and the team have all denied that he wants to leave.

B) his agent’s job is to make him the most money he can. Taking a two year deal where he leaves a million or more on the table for each year isn’t good financial advice.

C) he has arbitration rights so it makes sense to use them unless he’s at a point where he is very close to a deal or if he thought it more likely he was going to get an offer sheet - since once you file for arbitration you can no longer accept offer sheets.

I see no evidence that his agent is leading him astray and I’ve seen nothing from him this summer that Oilers fans should be getting their panties in a bunch about. The only people clearly freaking out are our brutal media members who desperately want the team to flush this player. They’re wrong of course but they see this as a victory against the stats guys if the team gets rid of him and they probably still don’t like that he left the team for Finland a couple years ago. They should not be believed.

I know Adam that unless the news is told by you, you consider if wrong but when the same opinion that he would like a fresh start has come form 10-20 media and insiders who aren't just Spector or Matheson but all the Edmonton media and I think all the main stream insiders who aren't even in the Edmonton market, who this is literally how they make a living, to report this stuff. Hell, Dustin Nielsen who might wear I luv JP clothes daily, says the same thing. when they all say the same thing, I just have a hard time believing they are all lying/wrong and fan Adam is the only one that is right.

An agents job is to make his client the most money now but it's also to set up his client to maximize the length of time he is in the league and maximize his earnings over the long term. I understand that the dream of some fans is that the Oilers and JP sign a long term deal for an AAV where in a few years, it's a value deal. So you get him for 4 mill now which might be a bit much but in 2 yrs when hopefully he's popped and found his consistency, you have a 25 goal scorer making 4 mill for the next 4 yrs. But if the agent is trying to get his client the most money over the long term, that isn't the way to do it given the uncertainty his client still has. Me saying there is uncertainty with the player isn't RDO and his "terrible takes" this what is being sent by the NHL's teams. They don't want to trade for the guy and commit to a contract that he wants because they don't know what he is yet and if he will be worth it.

Here's some simple math.
- JP signs right now for 4 mill x 6 years. = 24 mill. The hope being that in a year or 2, he's a bargain at 4 mill. He will be 30 and hopefully has a bunch of good seasons that some teams ignores he's 30 and signs him for another long term contract for big money. Any fan or blogger, at least from what I have found, who thinks JP walks on water would be celebrating in the streets as a massive win for the team.
or
- JP signs right now for 2.35 mill x 2 yrs. - 4.7 mill. That's double what he made from his last deal. He will be 26 when it comes up and a UFA. Hopefully he has a Nichushkin season in there and hits a home run. The Oilers should be a very good team in those 2 yrs, hopefully some long runs, maybe a Cup. Then he signs another deal just like Nichushkin did for 6+ mill. If you want to just sign a 4 yr deal to take him to 30, 4 yr x 6 mill = 24 mill. 24 + 4.7 mill = 28.7 mill.

Everyone keeps comparing him to the fear he will turn into Nichushkin and the Oilers lose out. So if that is the project, I am following what Nichuskin did. He signed a dirt cheap deal when he came back, then a 2 yr deal, had his massive season in this last one, now he his his homerun deal.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 July 2022 09:17]

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810683 is a reply to message #810682 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 09:41

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 767
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

There are some key differences betweenn the two. Being on similar trajectories doesn't mean at the same level.
19-20 Nichushkin won the Selke. 20-21 the lady byng and selke. Then 21-22 he broke out offensively.

one other big thing happened in 19-20. He started in Colorado where he was used differently.

PJ is solid, and he helps every line he's on, and I desperately hope he's resigned. But he's not going to win awards in the NHL. Nichushkin took a 2 year deal in 20-21 to bet on himself. As PJ's not the same level of player, his agent is right by telling him not to leave anything on the table. He'll likely never get a 6x6 deal.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810687 is a reply to message #810683 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 09:49

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 09:41

There are some key differences betweenn the two. Being on similar trajectories doesn't mean at the same level.
19-20 Nichushkin won the Selke. 20-21 the lady byng and selke. Then 21-22 he broke out offensively.

one other big thing happened in 19-20. He started in Colorado where he was used differently.

PJ is solid, and he helps every line he's on, and I desperately hope he's resigned. But he's not going to win awards in the NHL. Nichushkin took a 2 year deal in 20-21 to bet on himself. As PJ's not the same level of player, his agent is right by telling him not to leave anything on the table. He'll likely never get a 6x6 deal.

I know you tell me all the time I am pretty much exclusively wrong on whatever I say but I just looked it up and the:
- 19-20 Selke winner was Sean Courturier.
- 20-21 Selke winner was Barkov and Slavin won the Lady Bying.

So I am not finding anything saying Nichushkin won those awards like you said. So perhaps you are mistaken?

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810689 is a reply to message #810687 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 10:04

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 767
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

I was wrong, not sure why the page I brought up had those listed.... I didn't double check them.

it was hockey reference too... https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/n/nichuva01.html

To be fair though, you are wrong a lot... and I don't think I've ever seen you do as I did here, and say "yup, I was wrong"

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810719 is a reply to message #810689 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 16:21

PlusOne
Messages: 1594
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 10:04

I was wrong, not sure why the page I brought up had those listed.... I didn't double check them.

it was hockey reference too... https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/n/nichuva01.html

To be fair though, you are wrong a lot... and I don't think I've ever seen you do as I did here, and say "yup, I was wrong"

Just start every post with "In my opinion", somewhere in the middle describe how many hockey insiders and media you believe, then close with some form of feelings of persecution and self-congratulatory statement and you are set!
Nothing you ever say can be contradicted, disputed or disproven. It's like saying "no offense". In fact, (shoot, I mean in my opinion) I think both are in the Geneva Convention.

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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #811954 is a reply to message #810719 ]	Mon, 19 September 2022 12:16

GabbyDugan
Messages: 828
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB

No Cups

Some good PR work from Jesse in the metro community.

https://www.sprucegrovesaints.ca/oilers-jesse-puljujarvi-to- drop-puck-at-saints-home-opener

The lad is maturing nicely. Hope his efforts pay off with his NHL career, which I thought he had little interest in pursuing a couple of years ago.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810694 is a reply to message #810682 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 12:20

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:13

I know Adam that unless the news is told by you, you consider if wrong but when the same opinion that he would like a fresh start has come form 10-20 media and insiders who aren't just Spector or Matheson but all the Edmonton media and I think all the main stream insiders who aren't even in the Edmonton market, who this is literally how they make a living, to report this stuff. Hell, Dustin Nielsen who might wear I luv JP clothes daily, says the same thing. when they all say the same thing, I just have a hard time believing they are all lying/wrong and fan Adam is the only one that is right.

An agents job is to make his client the most money now but it's also to set up his client to maximize the length of time he is in the league and maximize his earnings over the long term. I understand that the dream of some fans is that the Oilers and JP sign a long term deal for an AAV where in a few years, it's a value deal. So you get him for 4 mill now which might be a bit much but in 2 yrs when hopefully he's popped and found his consistency, you have a 25 goal scorer making 4 mill for the next 4 yrs. But if the agent is trying to get his client the most money over the long term, that isn't the way to do it given the uncertainty his client still has. Me saying there is uncertainty with the player isn't RDO and his "terrible takes" this what is being sent by the NHL's teams. They don't want to trade for the guy and commit to a contract that he wants because they don't know what he is yet and if he will be worth it.

Here's some simple math.
- JP signs right now for 4 mill x 6 years. = 24 mill. The hope being that in a year or 2, he's a bargain at 4 mill. He will be 30 and hopefully has a bunch of good seasons that some teams ignores he's 30 and signs him for another long term contract for big money. Any fan or blogger, at least from what I have found, who thinks JP walks on water would be celebrating in the streets as a massive win for the team.
or
- JP signs right now for 2.35 mill x 2 yrs. - 4.7 mill. That's double what he made from his last deal. He will be 26 when it comes up and a UFA. Hopefully he has a Nichushkin season in there and hits a home run. The Oilers should be a very good team in those 2 yrs, hopefully some long runs, maybe a Cup. Then he signs another deal just like Nichushkin did for 6+ mill. If you want to just sign a 4 yr deal to take him to 30, 4 yr x 6 mill = 24 mill. 24 + 4.7 mill = 28.7 mill.

Everyone keeps comparing him to the fear he will turn into Nichushkin and the Oilers lose out. So if that is the project, I am following what Nichuskin did. He signed a dirt cheap deal when he came back, then a 2 yr deal, had his massive season in this last one, now he his his homerun deal.

It's not surprising all the media members say the same thing, especially when that message in some way supports a move or potential move the organization might make. They all talk to the same 4 guys in the Oilers organization. It's the same thing with the comment about 'all of the players wanting Kane back'. How do you think that piece of information leaked? It's not like someone got ahold of the transcripts of the exit interviews or I would bet there would be a lot more interesting stuff to write about than the fact that Kane is 'good in the room'.

Someone in the Oilers organization is clearly putting it out there to support some sort of narrative. Given that, do you not have any level of skepticism about their motivations? That's not to say the media members are lying (Mark Spector excepted, I think that guy definitely makes stuff up), or dumb. They just know that if they want to keep getting any sort of tidbits from the team, they need to keep printing what the team wants them to.

In terms of the contract ask from Puljujarvi or his decision to file for arbitration, everybody is going to have different ideas of what they're comfortable with in terms of price vs length, and it's not really fair to put your opinion onto what Puljujarvi should or shouldn't do. You could say the exact same thing about Draisaitl (or any young player that is on a growth trajectory). He signed his deal coming off of a 77 point season. If he really believed in himself he should have signed a 2-year deal and then, when he became a 50 goal/100 point player, he could have easily signed for $10M+. Injuries happen (even if they're not career ending), and lots of guys opt for the security of a long-term deal if they can get it.

Clearly there is a difference in terms of what Puljujarvi thinks he's worth vs. what the Oilers want to pay him, but I'm not sure it's evidence that Puljujarvi is getting bad advice. He got Covid and was injured for the 2nd half of the season. It seems like he thinks he should be paid more for his performance in the first part of the season when he was nearly a point per game player and on the 1st line and not as a 3rd liner as the team seems to want to pay him.

In theory, this is exactly the type of situation the arbitration process is supposed to support. I don't think it in any reflects negatively on Puljujarvi, his agent, or the team.

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #810699 is a reply to message #810694 ]	Mon, 18 July 2022 12:47

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Goose wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 12:20

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 18 July 2022 08:13

I know Adam that unless the news is told by you, you consider if wrong but when the same opinion that he would like a fresh start has come form 10-20 media and insiders who aren't just Spector or Matheson but all the Edmonton media and I think all the main stream insiders who aren't even in the Edmonton market, who this is literally how they make a living, to report this stuff. Hell, Dustin Nielsen who might wear I luv JP clothes daily, says the same thing. when they all say the same thing, I just have a hard time believing they are all lying/wrong and fan Adam is the only one that is right.

An agents job is to make his client the most money now but it's also to set up his client to maximize the length of time he is in the league and maximize his earnings over the long term. I understand that the dream of some fans is that the Oilers and JP sign a long term deal for an AAV where in a few years, it's a value deal. So you get him for 4 mill now which might be a bit much but in 2 yrs when hopefully he's popped and found his consistency, you have a 25 goal scorer making 4 mill for the next 4 yrs. But if the agent is trying to get his client the most money over the long term, that isn't the way to do it given the uncertainty his client still has. Me saying there is uncertainty with the player isn't RDO and his "terrible takes" this what is being sent by the NHL's teams. They don't want to trade for the guy and commit to a contract that he wants because they don't know what he is yet and if he will be worth it.

Here's some simple math.
- JP signs right now for 4 mill x 6 years. = 24 mill. The hope being that in a year or 2, he's a bargain at 4 mill. He will be 30 and hopefully has a bunch of good seasons that some teams ignores he's 30 and signs him for another long term contract for big money. Any fan or blogger, at least from what I have found, who thinks JP walks on water would be celebrating in the streets as a massive win for the team.
or
- JP signs right now for 2.35 mill x 2 yrs. - 4.7 mill. That's double what he made from his last deal. He will be 26 when it comes up and a UFA. Hopefully he has a Nichushkin season in there and hits a home run. The Oilers should be a very good team in those 2 yrs, hopefully some long runs, maybe a Cup. Then he signs another deal just like Nichushkin did for 6+ mill. If you want to just sign a 4 yr deal to take him to 30, 4 yr x 6 mill = 24 mill. 24 + 4.7 mill = 28.7 mill.

Everyone keeps comparing him to the fear he will turn into Nichushkin and the Oilers lose out. So if that is the project, I am following what Nichuskin did. He signed a dirt cheap deal when he came back, then a 2 yr deal, had his massive season in this last one, now he his his homerun deal.

It's not surprising all the media members say the same thing, especially when that message in some way supports a move or potential move the organization might make. They all talk to the same 4 guys in the Oilers organization. It's the same thing with the comment about 'all of the players wanting Kane back'. How do you think that piece of information leaked? It's not like someone got ahold of the transcripts of the exit interviews or I would bet there would be a lot more interesting stuff to write about than the fact that Kane is 'good in the room'.

Someone in the Oilers organization is clearly putting it out there to support some sort of narrative. Given that, do you not have any level of skepticism about their motivations? That's not to say the media members are lying (Mark Spector excepted, I think that guy definitely makes stuff up), or dumb. They just know that if they want to keep getting any sort of tidbits from the team, they need to keep printing what the team wants them to.

In terms of the contract ask from Puljujarvi or his decision to file for arbitration, everybody is going to have different ideas of what they're comfortable with in terms of price vs length, and it's not really fair to put your opinion onto what Puljujarvi should or shouldn't do. You could say the exact same thing about Draisaitl (or any young player that is on a growth trajectory). He signed his deal coming off of a 77 point season. If he really believed in himself he should have signed a 2-year deal and then, when he became a 50 goal/100 point player, he could have easily signed for $10M+. Injuries happen (even if they're not career ending), and lots of guys opt for the security of a long-term deal if they can get it.

Clearly there is a difference in terms of what Puljujarvi thinks he's worth vs. what the Oilers want to pay him, but I'm not sure it's evidence that Puljujarvi is getting bad advice. He got Covid and was injured for the 2nd half of the season. It seems like he thinks he should be paid more for his performance in the first part of the season when he was nearly a point per game player and on the 1st line and not as a 3rd liner as the team seems to want to pay him.

In theory, this is exactly the type of situation the arbitration process is supposed to support. I don't think it in any reflects negatively on Puljujarvi, his agent, or the team.

If a person wants to say the local media guys have a certain "go too" where they get their information from and they only use that guy and that source could be bias, I could agree with you. We will have to disagree on the big name, supposedly in the know guys who are outside of the market and they only use a couple of guys and that's it. I just have a hard time believing that guys like Seravalli, Friedman, etc guys who have built a reputation trying to be accurate and fair with what they report are calling up Spector or Matheseon or insert who ever you dislike and that's who they get all their information from to base what they say. Unless those guys are lying, they supposedly talk to team people, local media, players, agents, other team people to try and be accurate. For Spector or Matheson to spew whatever they want about JP or anyone else, there is upside because it brings traffic positive and negative to their articles. There is ZERO upside to the national guys to spew lies because then agents and players won't ever want to talk to them.

You are entitled to disagree but there is way, way, way too many non Oilers media with zero ties to the team saying the same message for in my opinion, not to be true. AND if there is zero truth to it, generally the player or agent will say something. There has been nothing from the JP side to say it's not true.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812118 is a reply to message #808823 ]	Sat, 24 September 2022 19:42

PlusOne
Messages: 1594
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

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CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812119 is a reply to message #812118 ]	Sat, 24 September 2022 21:12

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 19:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Seriously hilarious if that's the case. Would mean that 4 or 5 Oilers media guys have all just collectively made up a story and have been trying selling us a bag of crap for years.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812120 is a reply to message #812119 ]	Sun, 25 September 2022 00:38

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 20:12

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 19:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Seriously hilarious if that's the case. Would mean that 4 or 5 Oilers media guys have all just collectively made up a story and have been trying selling us a bag of crap for years.

They've been doing that for decades. It's consistent that they single out one or two guys per season that they can throw daggers at... until the otherwise decent player leaves and they get their justification for riding them in the first place. Love the Oilers, hate their media.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812130 is a reply to message #812120 ]	Sun, 25 September 2022 18:16

PlusOne
Messages: 1594
Registered: July 2006
Location: Regina, Sask

1 Cup

nullterm wrote on Sun, 25 September 2022 00:38

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 20:12

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 19:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Seriously hilarious if that's the case. Would mean that 4 or 5 Oilers media guys have all just collectively made up a story and have been trying selling us a bag of crap for years.

They've been doing that for decades. It's consistent that they single out one or two guys per season that they can throw daggers at... until the otherwise decent player leaves and they get their justification for riding them in the first place. Love the Oilers, hate their media.

Exactly, they pick a couple skill guys who arent 100 point players and crush them daily.
All while pumping up some role player for intangibles like being a glue guy or leaving it all on the ice.
Bonus point late in the season when they start to blame the star players for not being good enough leaders for the team to take the next step.

Survivor LX(I) and 67 Champ(i)on

CrusaderPi wrote on Thu, 30 January 2020 12:21

und(i)sputed O.L.F.N Heavybra(i)n Champ(i)on of the Woooooooooooooooooorld. Plus. One.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812135 is a reply to message #812130 ]	Mon, 26 September 2022 09:29

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 767
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

well, at least our media is consistent.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812138 is a reply to message #812118 ]	Mon, 26 September 2022 11:10

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 18:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Here's the clip of Anthony Stewart talking about Puljujarvi. Love the shade at the Edmonton media:

https://twitter.com/David___Co/status/1573922378442473473?s= 20&t=J8s70xXSzR_dZsJ681Yz-Q

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812140 is a reply to message #812138 ]	Mon, 26 September 2022 12:25

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Goose wrote on Mon, 26 September 2022 14:10

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 18:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Here's the clip of Anthony Stewart talking about Puljujarvi. Love the shade at the Edmonton media:

https://twitter.com/David___Co/status/1573922378442473473?s= 20&t=J8s70xXSzR_dZsJ681Yz-Q

I love it. And the A on his jersey last night was gravy.

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Re: Puljujarvi's Extension [message #812144 is a reply to message #812138 ]	Mon, 26 September 2022 13:22

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Goose wrote on Mon, 26 September 2022 11:10

PlusOne wrote on Sat, 24 September 2022 18:42

Apparently Anthony Stewart is non the Leafs broadcast tonight and in talking about JP said McDavid specifically made it known he wanted JP back on the team this year, biggest reason he wasn't moved.
I am in Sask but I am pretty sure I just heard a few local EDM talking heads pop, not to mention a couple of anti-JP posters.
The crew that used McD and Drai not wanting to play with JP as reason enough to dump him will have to chase a different angle I guess.

Here's the clip of Anthony Stewart talking about Puljujarvi. Love the shade at the Edmonton media:

https://twitter.com/David___Co/status/1573922378442473473?s= 20&t=J8s70xXSzR_dZsJ681Yz-Q

The "my colleagues are trying to run him out of town" comment makes it seem like Stewart is very aware of everything happening with Pulju. Wonder if he got his info straight from the players.

Does anyone think the players are open talking about anything in the locker room anymore with guys like Matty, Spector or Rishaug? I'm starting to think all those guys are just completely in the dark about almost everything now. They are constantly wrong about Oilers moves as well. Holland shut the leaks from the office, and the players just despise those guys because they are keenly aware of how they take cheap shots at their teammates. It's really time for the Journal, SN and others to get some fresh blood covering this team.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 September 2022 13:25]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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