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Re: Oilers ask for fans [message #779030 is a reply to message #779011 ]	Tue, 09 March 2021 16:21

mightyreasoner
Messages: 516
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:07

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:01

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:51

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:40

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:35

K.McC#24 wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:21

mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:13

I'm almost certain the CFL season will try to trudge ahead because I truly don't know if it would survive another year off. Remains to be seen how the ticket gate will affect them this year and if they can survive that also.

I bought season tickets for the first time last year, and I do think think I would probably go if they did. Commonwealth is so big that spacing seats should be feasible, and being outdoors should be fine. May still mask up though, not sure.

And I may even have the vaccine by then anyway.

The biggest question I think is shared spaces like entering/exiting and washrooms. Maybe there are certain sections assigned to each and maybe there is staggered times. Not sure how they will handle that at either Commonwealth or Rogers.

The CFL won't survive without ~ 20-25k gates.

Which I think you could do in Edmonton, BC, Toronto (if they move back into Rogers Centre for the year). But I'm not sure how you would social distance and fit that many into Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Montreal, Ottawa, Hamilton. Maybe proof of vaccine to enter? Could private businesses do that?

Depends if human rights legislation holds up.

Someone with a lot more knowledge than me would have to dig into it, but it seems there is already restrictions for a lot of private businesses that they can utilize. You can refuse service for all kinds of reasons, including health and safety (i.e. no shoes, no shirt, no smoking, etc.). If it were following public health guidelines, I'd imagine they'd probably be in the clear to do so.

I'm definitely not an expert on human rights laws and whenever I have to deal with this stuff my first call is to the lawyer, but I do 'get' to deal with it. Smoking isn't a great comparison because the bylaws are weighted toward people doing nothing. A better comparison would be someone not being able to work in a metal trade unless they have a tetanus shot. We can agree you should have your should have your booster shot if you work with rusty metal, but your company can't force you to put anything into your body. Same for your Mexico shot. You should get tropical boosters before you fly south, but should the airline refuse boarding if you can't show proof?

By the way, most Albertan get their booster shots when they're in grade 9. If you're older than 25, you need to get it again.

Difference with Tetanus is that it isn't an infectious disease. Ditto for traveller's diarrhea or hepatitis. No one can get that just by you breathing on them.

You can be refused entry to several countries in the world without proof of Yellow Fever vaccination, and I believe airlines will enforce that too.

Mask wearing is similar to shoes or shirt rules. I don't know if innoculations though is the same for Canadian businesses, because health information is supposed to be private and protected. We'll have to wait for a lawyer to weigh in on that.

Yeah, I think that's the issue here, the risk to others.

If measles were a current pandemic AND the vaccine was only semi-effective in preventing someone from catching it, then the situations might be comparable. As it is, each individual has the ability to protect themselves from measles even if some individuals chooses to live with that risk and not get the vaccine. The risk ends with the anti-vaxxer, it doesn't risk an entire place of work or other employees.

From what I've read, the Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccines seems to do three things well: 1) preventing hospitalization; 2) preventing death; and 3) preventing spread. It reduces the effects, but clinical efficiency of preventing actually catching it isn't wildly high. It will take a little while to bring the R-value down, especially if large numbers of people are choosing not to get it. In short, I don't think public restrictions are going to suddenly evaporate once people start having vaccines.

So that's what makes this complicated. I could get the vaccine, but around those who don't have it, still catch COVID. I won't spread it, but someone else's choice to take the risk of not getting a vaccine carries with it the risk they will pass it on to me, even with the vaccine.

If risk ends with a single individual it's far easier to live and let live than if the choice of risk affects those in their proximity.

For what it's worth, there are instances where proof of medical history is required to take part in the services of private companies. When I went to university in the States, I had to prove my vaccines were up to date. Even these last few months, for travel you had to produce a negative COVID-test. Especially with international travel, I could see proof of vaccine as a requirement, especially if you want insurance and whatnot.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds: I think public services won't be able to ask for medical records or deny services to anyone, and because of that, I think they will open later (the university, for example, won't have in-person classes until Fall 2021 at the earliest). But if private businesses wants to open before then, and do so in a way that complies with public safety measures, I wonder if we will see some sort of proof of "safe entry". It likely will have to do with balancing the cost of lost revenue vs. public response vs. potential of liability.

In the case of the NHL or CFL they probably have a few choices (all based upon approval from local health authorities):

1) Limit attendance to 1/4 and space fans out until the R-value drops enough that a full-building no longer poses a risk of spread for those in attendance.

2) Open up a full building and just let those who feel comfortable come, be it those who haven't had the vaccine or those who don't mind being around those who haven't had the vaccine. I'm not sure of the liability of this, but let's assume we are working under the assumption that this is approved by the local health authorities. (At the very least we'd probably have temperature checks along with security lines).

3) Open up the full building with proof of vaccine. No spread, no liability, no bad PR. After all, the CDC has said individuals with the vaccinne are safe to visit with others who have had the vaccine, unmasked and indoors.

Obviously the NHL and CFL would prefer 2 or 3 - they want full buildings, and in the case of the CFL, need it to survive (assuming enough people would show up to fill a building in each scenario). As a fan, I would feel comfortable in scenario 1 or 3, but won't be going to large public gatherings with people who haven't had the vaccine until the spread and cases drop significantly. I'll choose to attend events where there can be distance between attendees or hang out with others who have the vaccine and pose no threat to my health and wellbeing.

Anyways, everyone has the right to choose what they put into their bodies, but I'm not certain that private businesses don't have the right to refuse service to those they deem as risky to their business or other clients. Will be interesting to follow, I truly don't know what to expect. Probably limited attendance with not proof required, but I'm not sure that's what businesses would most prefer.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 March 2021 18:09]

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Oilers ask for fans	By: CrusaderPi on Sat, 06 March 2021 18:56
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: inverno76 on Sat, 06 March 2021 19:16
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Sat, 06 March 2021 19:19
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Gator21 on Mon, 08 March 2021 18:05
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: K.McC#24 on Mon, 08 March 2021 19:31
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Skoobz on Mon, 08 March 2021 20:20
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Mon, 08 March 2021 21:08
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Rocksteady on Tue, 09 March 2021 09:55
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: bigEfromGP on Tue, 09 March 2021 09:40
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:13
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:21
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:35
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:40
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:51
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:01
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:07
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:09
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: welcometotheOC on Tue, 09 March 2021 13:57
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: CrusaderPi on Tue, 09 March 2021 14:12
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Tue, 09 March 2021 16:21
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Skoobz on Wed, 10 March 2021 09:54
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 09 March 2021 18:09
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Tue, 09 March 2021 18:12
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Tue, 09 March 2021 19:03
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Tue, 09 March 2021 12:51
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 09 March 2021 20:27
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Wed, 10 March 2021 08:26
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: smyth260 on Wed, 10 March 2021 08:37
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: K.McC#24 on Wed, 10 March 2021 09:34
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: Adam on Wed, 10 March 2021 09:49
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: GabbyDugan on Wed, 10 March 2021 10:07
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: mightyreasoner on Wed, 10 March 2021 10:45
Re: Oilers ask for fans	By: CrudeRemarks on Wed, 10 March 2021 11:01

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