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Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763229]	Sat, 11 July 2020 17:41

smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007

1 Cup

Per Oilers twitter:

Mike Green has informed #Oilers President of Hockey Operations & General Manager Ken Holland that he will be opting out of the @NHL's 2020 Return To Play Program.

---

Apparently he had some health issue with a virus a few years ago. I imagine that played into his decision. It's too bad for the Oilers and the assets they lost to get him, but I fully respect his decision.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763231 is a reply to message #763229 ]	Sat, 11 July 2020 17:55

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Oilers trade Brodziak and a 4th round pick for 2 games of Mike Green looking lost in his own zone.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763234 is a reply to message #763231 ]	Sat, 11 July 2020 20:02

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Kr55 wrote on Sat, 11 July 2020 17:55

Oilers trade Brodziak and a 4th round pick for 2 games of Mike Green looking lost in his own zone.

To be fair, Zombie Brodziak is not a loss, so it's really just the 4th round pick. We'll have to wait to find out if that pick gets more than two games with the Red Wings to finally decide winners and losers in this trade...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763236 is a reply to message #763234 ]	Sat, 11 July 2020 21:49

Kr55
Messages: 10770
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Location: Edmonton

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Adam wrote on Sat, 11 July 2020 20:02

Kr55 wrote on Sat, 11 July 2020 17:55

Oilers trade Brodziak and a 4th round pick for 2 games of Mike Green looking lost in his own zone.

To be fair, Zombie Brodziak is not a loss, so it's really just the 4th round pick. We'll have to wait to find out if that pick gets more than two games with the Red Wings to finally decide winners and losers in this trade...

Well, considering Yzerman is a brilliant GM, one of the best all time already, I think that 4th rounder has a pretty good shot to be the next Lidstrom.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763239 is a reply to message #763229 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 02:24

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Guess it provides an opening for Mr. Bouchard.
Green going to chill for the summer on the deck until UFA season

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763240 is a reply to message #763239 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 09:01

inverno76
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Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 02:24

Guess it provides an opening for Mr. Bouchard.
Green going to chill for the summer on the deck until UFA season

I do respect the decision. It was likely a tough one to make. Without that playoff exposure it might be a quiet UFA offseason for Green. I could see him being a PTO guy come next December if he doesn’t just retire. It’s not like COVID is going away.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763241 is a reply to message #763229 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

CrudeRemarks
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Registered: November 2010
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As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763244 is a reply to message #763241 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 12:25

Gator21
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

The Oilers should push for not giving up a pick at all. Conditions were not met, end of story.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763245 is a reply to message #763244 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 12:34

Kr55
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Location: Edmonton

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Gator21 wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 12:25

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

The Oilers should push for not giving up a pick at all. Conditions were not met, end of story.

Ridiculous that it's taking this long to make the Lames just accept that. We have plenty of arguments on our side, like how Neal was injured and may have barely played the rest of the year. Looch was also scoring more in the 2nd half of the season.

What a joke it would be if we gave this pick up.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763248 is a reply to message #763245 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 19:47

Skookum Jim
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Kr55 wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 11:34

Gator21 wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 12:25

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

The Oilers should push for not giving up a pick at all. Conditions were not met, end of story.

Ridiculous that it's taking this long to make the Lames just accept that. We have plenty of arguments on our side, like how Neal was injured and may have barely played the rest of the year. Looch was also scoring more in the 2nd half of the season.

What a joke it would be if we gave this pick up.

Based on rational thought and fairness, this would have been decided long ago if it was anyone else but the Oilers, season over, points remain as is, the terms were not met, end of freaking story, but the NHL just loves warping the rules to stick it to this franchise. Just have to remember the SECOND and THIRD round picks given up for McClellan and Chiarelli, based on the nonsensical idea that you have to give up a high pick to hire someone else's fired employee, and in doing so saving them money by not having to pay out their remaining contract. Soon abandoned the rule after Oilers got stiffed... twice. That was freaking robbery.

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /edmonton-oilers-will-pay-draft-pick-compensation-for-gm-chi arelli-coach-mclellan

[Updated on: Sun, 12 July 2020 19:49]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763250 is a reply to message #763248 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 21:13

Adam
Messages: 7176
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 19:47

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 11:34

Gator21 wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 12:25

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

The Oilers should push for not giving up a pick at all. Conditions were not met, end of story.

Ridiculous that it's taking this long to make the Lames just accept that. We have plenty of arguments on our side, like how Neal was injured and may have barely played the rest of the year. Looch was also scoring more in the 2nd half of the season.

What a joke it would be if we gave this pick up.

Based on rational thought and fairness, this would have been decided long ago if it was anyone else but the Oilers, season over, points remain as is, the terms were not met, end of freaking story, but the NHL just loves warping the rules to stick it to this franchise. Just have to remember the SECOND and THIRD round picks given up for McClellan and Chiarelli, based on the nonsensical idea that you have to give up a high pick to hire someone else's fired employee, and in doing so saving them money by not having to pay out their remaining contract. Soon abandoned the rule after Oilers got stiffed... twice. That was freaking robbery.

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /edmonton-oilers-will-pay-draft-pick-compensation-for-gm-chi arelli-coach-mclellan

The team is just horrible at fighting those things too. New Jersey was penalized a first round pick for cap circumvention with Kovalchuk and then they just did some Jedi Mind Trick and the penalty disappeared. The Oilers, meanwhile, were one of the only teams stung by that stupid GM/coach rule and even after the league had eliminated the rule, we still just dutifully handed the picks over.

Stings even worse, considering both the GM and the coach really stink and did more harm than good.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763251 is a reply to message #763241 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

Adam
Messages: 7176
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763254 is a reply to message #763251 ]	Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

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Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763256 is a reply to message #763254 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

Adam
Messages: 7176
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Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763260 is a reply to message #763256 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 06:27

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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I guess that ends the debate as to who should play on the right side of the 3rd pairing, Benning or Green. I would have preferred Green.

A guy has to do what he feels is best for him and his family but that has to hurt his chances at a next contract if he wants one.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763265 is a reply to message #763256 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 08:27

Magnum
Messages: 839
Registered: June 2009
Location: Rogers' Arena > Banff

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Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

I'd say based on the intention of the clause, that they'd have an argument.

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763267 is a reply to message #763265 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 08:41

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

I'd say based on the intention of the clause, that they'd have an argument.

There's nothing in the clause about pro-rating. Both players could have been injured, and Neal was. The fact the season didn't finish isn't contemplated. Daly and Bettman are both lawyers, and in contract law, what the deal actually says is of paramount importance and there's not a lot of room for interpreting when specific numbers are detailed. The clause specifically says if Neal has 21 or more goals and that's at least 10 more than Lucic, then we owe the pick. Neal didn't score 21 goals. Period.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763268 is a reply to message #763267 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 09:23

Magnum
Messages: 839
Registered: June 2009
Location: Rogers' Arena > Banff

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Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:41

Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

I'd say based on the intention of the clause, that they'd have an argument.

There's nothing in the clause about pro-rating. Both players could have been injured, and Neal was. The fact the season didn't finish isn't contemplated. Daly and Bettman are both lawyers, and in contract law, what the deal actually says is of paramount importance and there's not a lot of room for interpreting when specific numbers are detailed. The clause specifically says if Neal has 21 or more goals and that's at least 10 more than Lucic, then we owe the pick. Neal didn't score 21 goals. Period.

I don't disagree that he didn't score 21 goals. You and I have taken basically, if not exactly, the same classes on law, so you definitely know that the spirit of the law can be just as, or more important than the specifics.

What if there's an "Act of God" clause? Most contracts have those. I'm sure that due to unprecedented times, unprecedented things will result.

I don't think that they get the pick, but if I know anything about law, it's that decisions occur that are unexpected, and seemingly counter-intuitive.

My guess, is that if you CanLii it up for 30 minutes, you'll find at least one example where the wording was trumped (small "t") by the spirit of the law.

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763280 is a reply to message #763268 ]	Mon, 13 July 2020 12:07

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 09:23

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:41

Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

I'd say based on the intention of the clause, that they'd have an argument.

There's nothing in the clause about pro-rating. Both players could have been injured, and Neal was. The fact the season didn't finish isn't contemplated. Daly and Bettman are both lawyers, and in contract law, what the deal actually says is of paramount importance and there's not a lot of room for interpreting when specific numbers are detailed. The clause specifically says if Neal has 21 or more goals and that's at least 10 more than Lucic, then we owe the pick. Neal didn't score 21 goals. Period.

I don't disagree that he didn't score 21 goals. You and I have taken basically, if not exactly, the same classes on law, so you definitely know that the spirit of the law can be just as, or more important than the specifics.

What if there's an "Act of God" clause? Most contracts have those. I'm sure that due to unprecedented times, unprecedented things will result.

I don't think that they get the pick, but if I know anything about law, it's that decisions occur that are unexpected, and seemingly counter-intuitive.

My guess, is that if you CanLii it up for 30 minutes, you'll find at least one example where the wording was trumped (small "t") by the spirit of the law.

There's no act of god clause. What would that even look like in a deal like this?

This will be decided by lawyers, but not in any court. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if the Oilers had to give up the pick. There were clearly set out parameters, and they didn't happen.

I have a little more exposure to contract law than a couple of legal relations classes in university 20-odd years ago. I feel pretty confident here.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #763308 is a reply to message #763280 ]	Tue, 14 July 2020 07:04

Magnum
Messages: 839
Registered: June 2009
Location: Rogers' Arena > Banff

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Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 12:07

Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 09:23

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:41

Magnum wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 08:27

Adam wrote on Mon, 13 July 2020 00:24

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 22:46

Adam wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 21:17

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sun, 12 July 2020 10:19

As we’ve heard there are still ongoing discussions about the Lucic pick, Oilers should push for the draft pick to be a later round as a result of this. Might not go anywhere but until the other stuff is settled I wouldn’t just accept the loss.

Can't see this being a successful argument though - if we'd made the trade and he was just injured (as he was, actually), we could've been in the same situation.

The good news is that if we go deep in the playoffs, then the pick doesn't upgrade as the original conditions set out that he needed to play half the games.

I don't have any issue with Benning as the third RD. He does something right, because he just doesn't get scored on at the same rate as other Oilers defencemen year after year. I don't think he's likely to elevate to a top pairing guy ever in his career, but with controlled minutes, he does well and the team outscores opponents when he's on the ice.

I agree it's low probability, but slightly higher if they lose the Lucic pick. I'd be making a stink.

I can't see the Flames being successful on that appeal. They set the parameters and they weren't achieved. Neal was injured up until COVID killed the season, so no guarantees he would have scored enough goals. There's just no good argument to give the Flames the pick.

I'd say based on the intention of the clause, that they'd have an argument.

There's nothing in the clause about pro-rating. Both players could have been injured, and Neal was. The fact the season didn't finish isn't contemplated. Daly and Bettman are both lawyers, and in contract law, what the deal actually says is of paramount importance and there's not a lot of room for interpreting when specific numbers are detailed. The clause specifically says if Neal has 21 or more goals and that's at least 10 more than Lucic, then we owe the pick. Neal didn't score 21 goals. Period.

I don't disagree that he didn't score 21 goals. You and I have taken basically, if not exactly, the same classes on law, so you definitely know that the spirit of the law can be just as, or more important than the specifics.

What if there's an "Act of God" clause? Most contracts have those. I'm sure that due to unprecedented times, unprecedented things will result.

I don't think that they get the pick, but if I know anything about law, it's that decisions occur that are unexpected, and seemingly counter-intuitive.

My guess, is that if you CanLii it up for 30 minutes, you'll find at least one example where the wording was trumped (small "t") by the spirit of the law.

There's no act of god clause. What would that even look like in a deal like this?

This will be decided by lawyers, but not in any court. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if the Oilers had to give up the pick. There were clearly set out parameters, and they didn't happen.

I have a little more exposure to contract law than a couple of legal relations classes in university 20-odd years ago. I feel pretty confident here.

You read the contract?

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765429 is a reply to message #763308 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

Gator21
Messages: 175
Registered: February 2016
Location: Kelowna, BC

No Cups

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765432 is a reply to message #765429 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765436 is a reply to message #765432 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

GabbyDugan
Messages: 828
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB

No Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765437 is a reply to message #765436 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765438 is a reply to message #765437 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 15:53

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

One more interesting article:

https://www.taxpayer.com/media/CTF-HomeIceDisadvantage.pdf

Quote:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
• In 2013-14 players for the Montreal Canadiens paid the
highest taxes with a tax rate of 53.9% and the Calgary
Flames paid the lowest team tax rate of 38.2%.
• Calgary Flames and Edmonton Oilers tied for the lowest
jurisdictional tax rate at 38.5% with the Florida, Texas and
Tennessee teams close behind at 40.5%.
• The Calgary Flames and Edmonton Oilers true cap – after
tax cap – was a league high of $39.6 million.
• The Montreal Canadiens true cap was a league low of only
$29.6 million.
• Having a no trade clause give players the power to avoid
being sent to high tax jurisdictions. Jason Spezza’s tax
savings by moving from Ottawa to Dallas are $394,732.
• Player’s without no-trade clauses could get a big take home
pay cut when traded to a high tax jurisdiction. PA Parenteau
will have to pay $349,535 more taxes after moving from
Colorado to Montreal.
• 57% of Unrestricted Free Agents who moved teams went to
teams with lower taxes.
• Benoit Pouliot will save the most taxes moving from the
New York Rangers to the Edmonton Oilers. If he had signed
the same deal in New York he would have had to pay
$575,752 more in taxes.
E

This is from 2013-14, before both provincial and federal governments increased their tax rates, so we are no longer the best tax jurisdiction for hockey players.

It would be really interesting to see the effective after tax salary cap each year.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765439 is a reply to message #765437 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant and cooperation from the Leafs org, basically gave no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 August 2020 16:13]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765440 is a reply to message #765439 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765443 is a reply to message #765440 ]	Fri, 14 August 2020 18:55

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

I think that's the one I recall as well. Was also this article in G&M where an accountant says he's done RCA's for a number of pro's on the Leafs and Canadiens.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/globe-wealth/artic le-how-pro-athletes-and-other-high-earners-stick-handle-high -canadian/

Article states that the NBA actually banned the Raptors from being able to use them, because it actually gives the Raptors an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. I suppose that is decent proof that it's pretty effective :)

Only says the players need to wait until retirement to access the funds, and it's good if they plan to retire outside Canada. I assume a pro athlete that retires in their 30's doesn't have to actually wait until they are 65 to get their RCA funds?

[Updated on: Fri, 14 August 2020 19:01]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765477 is a reply to message #765443 ]	Sun, 16 August 2020 20:50

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 18:55

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

I think that's the one I recall as well. Was also this article in G&M where an accountant says he's done RCA's for a number of pro's on the Leafs and Canadiens.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/globe-wealth/artic le-how-pro-athletes-and-other-high-earners-stick-handle-high -canadian/

Article states that the NBA actually banned the Raptors from being able to use them, because it actually gives the Raptors an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. I suppose that is decent proof that it's pretty effective :)

Only says the players need to wait until retirement to access the funds, and it's good if they plan to retire outside Canada. I assume a pro athlete that retires in their 30's doesn't have to actually wait until they are 65 to get their RCA funds?

That is a good point - their retirement age comes sooner and their income drops dramatically when they do retire.

However, they're still getting no return on a big chunk of money that the team is putting in trust for them. If you're 10-15 years from retirement, are you really better off deferring the tax? Or getting the money and then putting it to work for you? You're paying SOME tax either way and if you get the money then you can invest it or spend it as you please.

Again - with the G&M article I do think the accountant is more concerned with getting business from high earning business owners than he is actually planning Tavares' wealth.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765478 is a reply to message #765477 ]	Sun, 16 August 2020 21:06

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Sun, 16 August 2020 20:50

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 18:55

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

I think that's the one I recall as well. Was also this article in G&M where an accountant says he's done RCA's for a number of pro's on the Leafs and Canadiens.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/globe-wealth/artic le-how-pro-athletes-and-other-high-earners-stick-handle-high -canadian/

Article states that the NBA actually banned the Raptors from being able to use them, because it actually gives the Raptors an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. I suppose that is decent proof that it's pretty effective :)

Only says the players need to wait until retirement to access the funds, and it's good if they plan to retire outside Canada. I assume a pro athlete that retires in their 30's doesn't have to actually wait until they are 65 to get their RCA funds?

That is a good point - their retirement age comes sooner and their income drops dramatically when they do retire.

However, they're still getting no return on a big chunk of money that the team is putting in trust for them. If you're 10-15 years from retirement, are you really better off deferring the tax? Or getting the money and then putting it to work for you? You're paying SOME tax either way and if you get the money then you can invest it or spend it as you please.

Again - with the G&M article I do think the accountant is more concerned with getting business from high earning business owners than he is actually planning Tavares' wealth.

I think you can play with the RCA account in investments just like you would if you took the tax hit up front. I'm sure the Leafs and Canadiens have been happy to accommodate the desired investment strategies of these guys they are trying to lure to their teams.

I dunno man, seems legit. I don't think I'd be too far off to conclude that Jammies Boy didn't give nearly the home town discount that Leafs fans like to believe he did :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765488 is a reply to message #765478 ]	Mon, 17 August 2020 09:09

Adam
Messages: 7176
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 16 August 2020 21:06

Adam wrote on Sun, 16 August 2020 20:50

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 18:55

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

I think that's the one I recall as well. Was also this article in G&M where an accountant says he's done RCA's for a number of pro's on the Leafs and Canadiens.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/globe-wealth/artic le-how-pro-athletes-and-other-high-earners-stick-handle-high -canadian/

Article states that the NBA actually banned the Raptors from being able to use them, because it actually gives the Raptors an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. I suppose that is decent proof that it's pretty effective :)

Only says the players need to wait until retirement to access the funds, and it's good if they plan to retire outside Canada. I assume a pro athlete that retires in their 30's doesn't have to actually wait until they are 65 to get their RCA funds?

That is a good point - their retirement age comes sooner and their income drops dramatically when they do retire.

However, they're still getting no return on a big chunk of money that the team is putting in trust for them. If you're 10-15 years from retirement, are you really better off deferring the tax? Or getting the money and then putting it to work for you? You're paying SOME tax either way and if you get the money then you can invest it or spend it as you please.

Again - with the G&M article I do think the accountant is more concerned with getting business from high earning business owners than he is actually planning Tavares' wealth.

I think you can play with the RCA account in investments just like you would if you took the tax hit up front. I'm sure the Leafs and Canadiens have been happy to accommodate the desired investment strategies of these guys they are trying to lure to their teams.

I dunno man, seems legit. I don't think I'd be too far off to conclude that Jammies Boy didn't give nearly the home town discount that Leafs fans like to believe he did :)

I looked at this before - at least half the money gets no return and no interest:

https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/delegate/services/file/63 7769/content

I'm unclear who is the custodian and if the player can be it. Not to say it's not a strategy that can be used - I just don't think it's as good as the article says for a hockey player. When there's a single accountant quoted throughout, you definitely have to wonder if it isn't set up as an advertisement for services - you note he mentions specifically in the article that it's good for business owners too. I think both articles are more about attracting high net value clients, rather than explaining what Tavares is doing. He may or may not be doing that for some of his salary, but if he is - then he isn't getting paid that money right now. It's set aside for some years, and half of it doesn't even earn interest.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

Report message to a moderator

Send a private message to this user

Re: Mike Green Opts out of Return-To-Play [message #765506 is a reply to message #765488 ]	Mon, 17 August 2020 12:44

Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 17 August 2020 09:09

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 16 August 2020 21:06

Adam wrote on Sun, 16 August 2020 20:50

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 18:55

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:24

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 16:11

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:44

GabbyDugan wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 15:26

Adam wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:42

Gator21 wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 14:34

https://oilersnation.com/2020/08/14/edmonton-oilers-defencem an-mike-green-to-retire/

Aaaand now he's retired...thanks for the 2 games Mikey, glad we gave up a pick for that #onceanoileralwaysanoiler

Really though if you knew you were going out you wouldn't want to come back and take a crack at the cup? Or maybe he was just smart enough to know that we'd crap the bed early and not waste his time

Mike Green apparently has some family who's higher risk, so opted out for those reasons. Sucks for us, but I don't blame anyone for doing what they think is best for their family.

He will be 35 before the next season starts. Had a pretty decent career, but wasn't contributing a lot in his last season in either Detroit or Edmonton. Time to step aside for someone younger and hungrier.

Family should come first, and Green should have banked enough to take care of them

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/mike-green

I'm not nosy about anyone's financial situation, but I wonder how much of those career earnings of $67,429,626 went to agent fees, NHLPA dues, escrow, and of course taxes at every level.

Lots!

There's not a lot of ways to shield money as a professional athlete. Most of the player contracts for the various leagues are with the individual, not with a corporation for the player, which means that it's all salary. The tax authorities know exactly how much you make and which jurisdictions you make it in so it's pretty easy to tax them and for every jurisdiction they play in to take a little piece of the action:

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players -really-make-part-2-taxes/

If you live in Lloydminster, and you had a house on one side of the border and a cabin on the other side - you could choose to tell the government you made your earnings in Alberta or Saskatchewan, based on where you get more favourable tax treatment - and they're not likely to spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether that's correct or not. With a pro hockey player, since there's a schedule, it's waaaay easier for them to check.

The other downside of that for players is that if you pay your agent 3-5% (source - https://anderscpa.com/how-much-nhl-players-really-make/#:~:t ext=Agent%20fees%20generally%20range%20anywhere,of%20their%2 0take%20home%20pay.). If they could incorporate, you'd pay your agent with pre-tax money, and then either keep the money in the corp and get taxed there, or pay out to the player in salary and get taxed personally. Unfortunately, with the players getting paid by the team first - the player gets taxed on the gross, and then pays the agent fees - calculated on the gross - out of his after-tax dollars.

There's a significant amount of slippage, and then these guys also often live like rock stars while they're playing - burning a huge amount of what they earn, because they don't always appreciate how fast that comes to an end...

The two articles there are both interesting ones on this.

I recall an article after Tavares signed with the Leafs about how much easier it becomes for player accountants to play games to save their clients all kinds of money when a massive amount of the player salary is coming in as a signing bonus. With the tricks laid out, they estimated that Tavares, with a good enough accountant, basically took no hometown discount to play with the Leafs.

So if that's the same one I remember - it's a bit misleading:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tav ares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contra ct/#1e39e7f71ab7

Yes - there are ways to make it better, but most of them involve deferrals. The RCA option they discuss means that basically the Toronto Maple Leafs set up a trust for him, and he doesn't get the money until he's 65.

He's got to rely on the team setting up the trust and he doesn't really run the trust. It's a better strategy for a business owner - where he controls the company that controls the trust. I think that article is more of an advertisement for the services of the guy who wrote it, rather than actual strategies that Tavares used.

I think that's the one I recall as well. Was also this article in G&M where an accountant says he's done RCA's for a number of pro's on the Leafs and Canadiens.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/globe-wealth/artic le-how-pro-athletes-and-other-high-earners-stick-handle-high -canadian/

Article states that the NBA actually banned the Raptors from being able to use them, because it actually gives the Raptors an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. I suppose that is decent proof that it's pretty effective :)

Only says the players need to wait until retirement to access the funds, and it's good if they plan to retire outside Canada. I assume a pro athlete that retires in their 30's doesn't have to actually wait until they are 65 to get their RCA funds?

That is a good point - their retirement age comes sooner and their income drops dramatically when they do retire.

However, they're still getting no return on a big chunk of money that the team is putting in trust for them. If you're 10-15 years from retirement, are you really better off deferring the tax? Or getting the money and then putting it to work for you? You're paying SOME tax either way and if you get the money then you can invest it or spend it as you please.

Again - with the G&M article I do think the accountant is more concerned with getting business from high earning business owners than he is actually planning Tavares' wealth.

I think you can play with the RCA account in investments just like you would if you took the tax hit up front. I'm sure the Leafs and Canadiens have been happy to accommodate the desired investment strategies of these guys they are trying to lure to their teams.

I dunno man, seems legit. I don't think I'd be too far off to conclude that Jammies Boy didn't give nearly the home town discount that Leafs fans like to believe he did :)

I looked at this before - at least half the money gets no return and no interest:

https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/delegate/services/file/63 7769/content

I'm unclear who is the custodian and if the player can be it. Not to say it's not a strategy that can be used - I just don't think it's as good as the article says for a hockey player. When there's a single accountant quoted throughout, you definitely have to wonder if it isn't set up as an advertisement for services - you note he mentions specifically in the article that it's good for business owners too. I think both articles are more about attracting high net value clients, rather than explaining what Tavares is doing. He may or may not be doing that for some of his salary, but if he is - then he isn't getting paid that money right now. It's set aside for some years, and half of it doesn't even earn interest.

I can't quite get into the mind of a multimillionaire that gets a deal worth tens of extra millions, but I guess it's possible they would just suck up the tax cost and hope their people can build more gains than what the tax savings would be to just have the money sit. Or maybe they just like that in principle the government isn't gonna get more taxes from them, and it's nice to have that money sitting there that you get to pull out after you're done, and who knows, maybe your invested money got wasted by Biden getting voted in and you came out way ahead :)

In the end though considering all options available, barely any hometown discount, if any by jammies boy icon_biggrin

icon_biggrin

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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